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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
I never quite realised, but some of the most common personal names in English are Jesus' apostles!

John, Mark, Matthew, James, Luke, Peter/Simon, Andrew/Ender...

Judah is a very uncommon name among Christians, hmm!
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Judah's not the problematic one. . . JudaS though. . .


 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
"Judah" in Hebrew, as I know it, the same in modern English. It's basically the "corrected" way of Latin Judas. So is it really a certain level of humiliation if a Christian is named like that? I know Jews are named after kings who weren't that friendly (Saul).
 

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Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
 
"Hey, Jude, don't make it bad
Take a sad song and make it better
Remember to let her into your heart
Then you can start to make it better"
(Lennon-McCartney - Hey Jude)
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Jude in that case is short for "Julian."
 

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Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
 
I can't help it's phonetically close to Judah/Judas.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Yeah, it was originally "Hey Jules," but Paul changed it.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Nope-- no stigma against Judah, since most Christians associate the name Judah with the son of Jacob and the tribe, not with Judas.
 

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Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
 
I've noticed quite a few little kids recently with the name Cain. Not too good if they have a brother.
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
But what about the Biblical Jude? Is that another Greek rendering of Judah?
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I tried to talk my wife into naming a son Judas, after the other apostle.

My wife would have none of that, though.
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
 
He was also known as Matthias, wasn't he?
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 

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"Judah" in Hebrew, as I know it, the same in modern English. It's basically the "corrected" way of Latin Judas. So is it really a certain level of humiliation if a Christian is named like that? I know Jews are named after kings who weren't that friendly (Saul).

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And then there's my husband, who didn't want to name our son Saul, which was his father's Hebrew name, because of who Saul was in the Bible.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Where you would really get into trouble is if you named your child Iscariot.
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
 
Which Saul, Ela? I'm just curious.
 

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Posted by signal (Member # 6828) on :
 
I had a friend in elementary school named Matthias (don't remember the spelling, but same pronounciation). His parents were missionaries from Norway or something and in his case, I think it was the equivalent of Matthew.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
I've known girls named Delilah and Jezebel. I cannot fathom what their parents were thinking. Both girls more than lived up to their names.

It also bothers me when Jewish people name their sons Paul - I don't understand that either.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Oh, thanks, now I have that song in my head for the rest of the day.
 

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Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
 
Jezebel is the nickname I usually get from people who don't like me.
Thankfully it refers to a sound alike of my name not my habit of killing people for their vineyards.

(By the way, as far as I remember, St. Matthias was Judas Iscariot's successor, voted into the apostolate by the other apostles.)
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I think Delilah is a beautiful name, and I don't think there's anything wrong with giving somebody a name that happens to have been shared by somebody distateful.

But there are limits. Imagine a boy growing up with the name Adolf. That would not be good.
 

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Posted by Daring Rooster (Member # 7252) on :
 
Lots of Biblical names out there - for Men as well as Women....Sarah, Rebecca, Miriam, Maria, etc.

I even know of a "Lilith" or two out there, though that is admittedly based in biblical folklore, and not on the Old Testament itself.

-Chris

[ January 11, 2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Daring Rooster ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Are there any groups that believe that it is important to always give children Bible names?
 

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Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
 
My friend is Anabaptist and her entire family have biblical names in the original Hebrew spelling. I'm not sure is this is a family preference or religious necessity, though.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 

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Oh, thanks, now I have that song in my head for the rest of the day.

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Are there any groups that believe that it is important to always give children Bible names?

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Which Saul, Ela? I'm just curious.

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Jews are required to give their children Hebrew names, but they don't have to be from the Torah. For example, my Hebrew name is Keren Miriam - Keren is not from the Torah and Miriam is.

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Imagine a boy growing up with the name Adolf. That would not be good.

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I agree. I can't imagine being associated with Coors beer.
 

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Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
 

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Jews are required to give their children Hebrew names, but they don't have to be from the Torah. For example, my Hebrew name is Keren Miriam - Keren is not from the Torah and Miriam is.

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Jews are required to give their children Hebrew names

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2 questions:

What makes a name a Hebrew name? Can non-Hebrew names become Hebrew names?

How much of a requirement is it?
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
I love the name Chaim for no apparent reason.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I love the name Xerxes.
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
 
That's what I assumed, Ela, but I thought the other might be an even more likely reason for distaste, considering the context. But knowing that either could be readily perceived as a negative, I was just wondering.

--Pop
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Actually, there was a kid named Adolf in my school in the '50s, and he insisted on being called Dolf.

Believe me, no one associated his name with Coors Beer.

 

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Posted by Daring Rooster (Member # 7252) on :
 

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What makes a name a Hebrew name? Can non-Hebrew names become Hebrew names?

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That's what I assumed, Ela, but I thought the other might be an even more likely reason for distaste, considering the context. But knowing that either could be readily perceived as a negative, I was just wondering.

--Pop

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Jews are required to give their children Hebrew names, but they don't have to be from the Torah.

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Can non-Hebrew names become Hebrew names?

How much of a requirement is it?

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I love the name Xerxes.

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But what about the Biblical Jude? Is that another Greek rendering of Judah?

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If I'm not mistaken, there were easily at least seven significant men with the name "Judas" in the bible, one of them Jesus' half brother who most likely wrote the book of Jude. Another significant Judas was a faithful apostle of Jesus, also called "Thaddaeus."

However, as most people on the street would not be familiar with two Judas' being Jesus' apostles at the same time, there would most likely be a very negative association with naming your kid "Judas" in our quasi-Christian culture.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Matthias is the apostle that replaced Judas after his betrayal and subsequent death.

I love the name Mathias (with one t). We're naming a son that.
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
It's a shame, really, that one person's actions can scar, and essentially retire a name forever from familiar usage.

I wonder if the same thing could happen nowadays. If a "Bob" or a "Joe" (using them as familiar names) was truly famously cruel, would "Bob" have the same curse immediately, or would it have to become part of history for the revulsion to become integrated? Or would it not be the same at all; would people just think of all the nice Bobs and Joes they knew instead?

Perhaps a name has to be unusual in the minds of the people for it to have a stigma attached: "Adolf" was probably not considered attached with Hitler inside of Germany- there were lots of Adolfs, but outside of Germany there was only one Adolf.

EDIT: I like the name Judas, which is partially why I think it's a shame it's been stigmatised.

[ January 11, 2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
We have a fairly large Jewish popluation (of varying degrees of devoutness) here at work. However two of the more devout Jewish guys I know are both named Mark. I was wondering if there was some Jewish connection with the name Mark other than the Christian one. Mark is a person and a book of the Bible, but not actually an apostle as I recall. In fact I thought he was Greek or only half jewish but I'd have to look it up to make sure.

AJ
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
Unrelated anecdote:

We were visiting some Zapotec potters in a little village in Southern Mexico, talking to them with our professor translating from Spanish to English and one of the younger ladies translating from Spanish to Zapotec. Before they began their pottery demonstration, they insisted on knowing each of our names, and then asked what that name was in Spanish. Some were easy: Mike was Miguel, Jimmy was Juanes, I (Anneke) was Anita. One of the students, though, was named Jay, and we tried to explain that there wasn't a Spanish equivalent - his name was just Jay.
"Yes, but what is that in Spanish?" the lady kept asking.
We finally settled on telling them that his name was Jota (The letter of the alphabet). They thought it very funny and kept calling him Jota all afternoon.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Mark was an apostle, as well as the supposed author of the Gospel of Mark.

[ January 11, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: mackillian ]
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
She was wondering about Old Testament Marks. I'm pretty sure Marcus and Mark are Roman names...
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
This Link seems like it might be useful for various this-thread-realted purposes.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Annie is correct. Mark is from the Latin name Marcus.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
I wonder if anyone is called Artah'shassta? (The English translation is Artaxerxes, I think.)

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Judas, after the other apostle.

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I thought he was a desciple, not an apostle. As far as I heard, desciples are the students of Jesus, whereas the apostles made him famous AFTER death; that makes Judas one, not the other, unless I got it wrong?

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In a very general sense, there is little difference between an apostle and a disciple. The two words are sometimes used interchangeably. Both terms refer to passionate adherents of a movement or philosophy who seek to further that philosophy through teaching, and both are often used to refer to the 12 men who were the original followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

But, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called 'Apostle.' In fact, however, it was reserved to those of the disciples who received this title from Christ." So it seems that while the 12 Apostles were disciples, not all disciples are apostles.

The word "disciple" comes from the Latin discipulus, or pupil. "Apostle" comes from the Greek word apostolos, or delegate. The word "apostle" is the closest approximation to the Aramaic word "seliah," which referred to "those who were despatched from the mother city by the rulers of the race on any foreign mission, especially such as were charged with collecting the tribute paid to the temple service."

The historical Jesus spoke Aramaic, the language of the Semitic peoples of the Middle East. Aramaic was superseded by Arabic around the 13th century. Mel Gibson's upcoming biopic of Jesus, The Passion, was filmed entirely in Aramaic and Latin.

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Mark is from the Latin name Marcus.

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Weren't some apostles disciples and some disciples apostles but not all? I mean, there were some apostles that weren't disciples and some disciples who weren't apostles?

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the term "apostle" generally refers to the 12 appointed representatives he sent out at the beginning of his ministry, and then one later chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.

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The word "Apostle", from the Greek apostello "to send forth", "to dispatch", has etymologically a very general sense. Apostolos (Apostle) means one who is sent forth, dispatched--in other words, who is entrusted with a mission, rather, a foreign mission. It has, however, a stronger sense than the word messenger, and means as much as a delegate. In the classical writers the word is not frequent. In the Greek version of the Old Testament it occurs once, in III Kings, xiv, 6 (cf. ibid., xii, 24). In the New Testament, on the contrary. it occurs, according to Bruder's Concordance, about eighty times, and denotes often not all the disciples of the Lord, but some of them specially called. It is obvious that our Lord, who spoke an Aramaic dialect, gave to some of his disciples an Aramaic title, the Greek equivalent of which was "Apostle". It seems to us that there is no reasonable doubt about the Aramaic word being seliah, by which also the later Jews, and probably already the Jews before Christ, denoted "those who were despatched from the mother city by the rulers of the race on any foreign mission, especially such as were charged with collecting the tribute paid to the temple service" (Lightfoot, "Galatians", London, 1896, p. 93). The word apostle would be an exact rendering of the root of the word seliah,= apostello.

II. VARIOUS MEANINGS

It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called "Apostle". In fact, however, it was reserved to those of the disciples who received this title from Christ. At the same time, like other honourable titles, it was occasionally applied to those who in some way realized the fundamental idea of the name. The word also has various meanings.

* The name Apostle denotes principally one of the twelve disciples who, on a solemn occasion, were called by Christ to a special mission. In the Gospels, however, those disciples are often designated by the expressions of mathetai (the disciples) or dodeka (the Twelve) and, after the treason and death of Judas, even of hendeka (the Eleven). In the Synoptics the name Apostle occurs but seldom with this meaning; only once in Matthew and Mark. But in other books of the New Testament, chiefly in the Epistles of St. Paul and in the Acts, this use of the word is current. Saul of Tarsus, being miraculously converted, and called to preach the Gospel to the heathens, claimed with much insistency this title and its rights.
* In the Epistle to the Hebrews (iii, 1) the name is applied even to Christ, in the original meaning of a delegate sent from God to preach revealed truth to the world.
* The word Apostle has also in the New Testament a larger meaning, and denotes some inferior disciples who, under the direction of the Apostles, preached the Gospel, or contributed to its diffusion; thus Barnabas (Acts, xiv, 4, 14), probably Andronicus and Junias (Rom., xvi, 7), Epaphroditus (Phil., ii, 25), two unknown Christians who were delegated for the collection in Corinth (II Cor., vii, 23). We know not why the honourable name of Apostle is not given to such illustrious missionaries as Timothy, Titus, and others who would equally merit it.

There are some passages in which the extension of the word Apostle is doubtful, as Luke, xi, 49; John, xiii, 16; II Cor., 13; I Thes., ii, 7; Ephes., iii, 5; Jude, 17, and perhaps the well-known expression "Apostles and Prophets". Even in an ironical meaning the word occurs (II Cor., xi, 5; xii, 11) to denote pseudo-apostles. There is but little to add on the use of the word in the old Christian literature. The first and third meanings are the only ones which occur frequently, and even in the oldest literature the larger meaning is seldom found.

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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm

[ January 11, 2005, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
Yes, and Paul.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*dagnabbit!* a lot of this is redundant to Dagonee's previous post...

AJ

The dude named Mark that wrote the book of Mark was definitely *not* one of "The 12 Apostles" Mack. Not often I tell you you are wrong but I know I'm right on this one

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm

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The name Apostle denotes principally one of the twelve disciples who, on a solemn occasion, were called by Christ to a special mission. In the Gospels, however, those disciples are often designated by the expressions of mathetai (the disciples) or dodeka (the Twelve) and, after the treason and death of Judas, even of hendeka (the Eleven). In the Synoptics the name Apostle occurs but seldom with this meaning; only once in Matthew and Mark. But in other books of the New Testament, chiefly in the Epistles of St. Paul and in the Acts, this use of the word is current. Saul of Tarsus, being miraculously converted, and called to preach the Gospel to the heathens, claimed with much insistency this title and its rights.
In the Epistle to the Hebrews (iii, 1) the name is applied even to Christ, in the original meaning of a delegate sent from God to preach revealed truth to the world.
The word Apostle has also in the New Testament a larger meaning, and denotes some inferior disciples who, under the direction of the Apostles, preached the Gospel, or contributed to its diffusion; thus Barnabas (Acts, xiv, 4, 14), probably Andronicus and Junias (Rom., xvi, 7), Epaphroditus (Phil., ii, 25), two unknown Christians who were delegated for the collection in Corinth (II Cor., vii, 23). We know not why the honourable name of Apostle is not given to such illustrious missionaries as Timothy, Titus, and others who would equally merit it.

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• Simon (Peter)
• Andrew (Peter's brother)
• James (John's brother)
• John
• Bartholomew
• Philip
• Thomas (Didymus)
• Matthew
• James the Less
• Thaddaeus (Judas, not Iscariot)
• Simon the Zealot
• Judas Iscariot
• Matthias (replaced Judas Iscariot)

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I have the opposite. I have an English name in addition to my real name because no one could ever pronounce my real name. Jaime is my English name, Chaim is my real name.

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Not no one. I can pronounce it just fine.

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What makes a name a Hebrew name?

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Can non-Hebrew names become Hebrew names?

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How much of a requirement is it?

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I love the name Mathias (with one t). We're naming a son that.

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Is it inappropriate to capitalize somebody's name when they don't do it themselves?

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I try not to, I fail occasionally, of course. How about if "rivka" comes at the beginning of a sentence?

"Rivka" is an easy one: Rivka is the name, rivka is the pseudonym, or should I say alias. In a case like mph, you never know what to do...
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I know some of our lower-casers (xnera, for example) strongly prefer not to have their SN capitalized. But Jonathan is precisely correct: rivka is my SN, and Rivka is my IRL name. I am perfectly fine with people calling me by either -- online or in person.
 

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Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
sausage man, this family likely was proving their godliness with this.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
I made capitalisation easy for you. I'm efficient! I feel good!
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

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Jaime is my English name, Chaim is my real name.

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rivka is my SN, and Rivka is my IRL name. I am perfectly fine with people calling me by either -- online or in person.

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I'm interested to know how people distinguish "rivka" from "Rivka" in person.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*twinkle* Well, you see, my real name is capitalized . . .
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 

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Can non-Hebrew names become Hebrew names?

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Yes. Alexander is a good example of this. (In Hebrew, it's ah-lek-SAN-der)

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