• The power window on the driver's side only opens when it feels like it.
• The CD player also only plays when it feels like it.
• There is some minor body damage on the left front.
• It doesn't get great gas mileage... about 26 MPG. And gas here sells for $2.68 right now.
• My insurance seems unreasonably high with this car.
• It's starting to make funny noises that make me uneasy.

My biggest concerns are that I get a car that won't break me financially, but that will be reliable for me. I don't have any family here to back me up if I got in a bind, so I need to have something reliable. My boyfriend is encouraging me to spend some money on a tuneup and maybe fix the window and CD player and wait until the car falls apart before I get rid of it, but I'm afraid if I wait until I HAVE to buy a new car, I'll get taken to the cleaners by the car dealers.
So, what do youse guys think?

maui babe
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
So you think your insurance is going to be less with a newer car? I'd say wait until the model year end clearances, maybe.

26 mpg is pretty bad for a car that small. I guess you could look at the length of your commute and figure out how much this thing is costing you to own.

What about buying a slightly used car?
P.S. I think you will always get taken if you go to a new car dealer. But I'm sort of cynical.

[ January 15, 2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
My 20 year old daughter bought a brand new Toyota in 2003 and her insurance was less than mine.

I commute about 15 miles one way to work, so I pay about $26 a week just to get to work and home. I almost never drive anywhere but to work and to drive my girls where they need to go.
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
I think we need commuter trains.

That's all.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
Or even a bus service would be nice.
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Maui Babe,

There are two things that will adversely affect your trade-in value just from a very general standpoint: (I tell you these things first-hand from years of screwing up new car purchases)

1. Of the US Auto makers, Chrysler products have the worst resell value.

If you take your Neon to a Honda dealer for example, they may low-ball the trade because of the make and model. (I once had a Nissan Pathfinder, and traded on a Chevy. The Nissan nearly had a birthday on their lot, taking nearly a year for them to resell. It just was not a car that their segment of car buyers went looking for at a Chevy dealer...)

On the other hand, dealers are cross-connected or incorporated, so the car you trade in might be traded or transferred to another dealer very quickly. This prevents dealers from having to give your car back if you change you mind, because it is no longer on the lot. This gives them the ability to take the stance that your trade is undesirable at their dealership, then they transfer it to a Chrysler dealer later in the day...

2. Many of those people on the "inside" of the auto market consider the Neon to be the worst car ever made.

The money you put into your Neon must be viewed as a cost, and not an investment. But if fixing or repairing your car is more appealing than having a car payment. Fix it.

On a personal note, I could not pass up the end-of-year deals they were throwing out, and bought a new vehicle, even though the one I traded in was less than a year old. I needed a bigger car with a 3rd row seat, and could not pass up the deal I got. I bought a Suburban and got $13,500 off the sticker price.

Honda makes very good cars and their resale value is also excellent, but their rebates and incentives are usually behind US auto makers. In the case of a Honda, though, you get what you pay for.

Similarly, a new car payment is still a cost. The fact that people consider buying a car as an investment is silly, unless of course you accept the fact that it is undoubtably a losing investment. So be careful! Only buy what you can absolutely afford.

I like to browse kelleybluebook.com and edmunds.com to research how much I can expect to pay before I go to the dealer, and I rarely let them just quote me the monthly payment. I work out how much the new car will be, and what the trade will be in REAL dollars. Then I look at financing, etc step by step. Both the sites above have excellent strategies to detail the car-buying process to avoid getting ripped off.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
There are two ways to decide when it's time to purchase a new car: the dollars¢s way and the "I just can't stand this old car" way. If you are already in the realm of #2 and are just tired of this car and it's various foibles, then you already have your answer.

If, however, you are inclined to look at this strategically in terms of the effect on your pocketbook, here are some things to consider:

1. Calculate the annual costs of operating this vehicle. Include a range of estimates for upcoming repairs, the cost of insurance, cost of gas at your current rate of usage, etc.

2. For comparison's sake, calculate an anticipated annual cost of operating various models of car in which you are interested. Your insurance company can tell you what they would charge per year to insure you driving the various models. You can figure out your anticipated gas mileage. Just to be on the safe side, I suggest you use the "City" mileage rating for any cars you're interested in. You are currently getting around the low end of the ratings for Neons, so if that's got anything to do with driving patterns, you can expect similar results from any other car. If your new car has 10 year bumper-to-bumper warranty, don't make the mistake of assuming NO maintenance costs. You still have to pay for oil changes and some of the stuff that will happen and isn't covered under the warranty.

Chances are, continuing to run your Neon will be by FAR more economical than running a new car. But, this exercise also is useful because it tells you how long it would take for things to equalize. For example, your car payment goes away after 3-5 years in a new car. That drops the annual cost of operation by a large amount.

Also, when the Neon starts to have more expensive problems, you might be able to recalculate the costs and decide then that it makes economic sense.

My advice is generally to keep the old vehicle until it either no longer suits your needs or it has its first really major repair requirement. I would simply decide NOT to get that repair done and trade the thing in dead as a doornail.

I did this with my last car and it was an astounding success. They didn't care that the car wasn't running. I still got Blue Book for it. Go figure. They might beat you down a bit for a car with a major problem, but so what? It's not like the darn thing is worth a lot in trade anyway.

So, keep it, if you can stand it, until it either starts to nickle_and_dime you or until something big happens.

Guaranteed that sooner or later you're going to need something expensive like a front end rebuild or an engine thingy or transmission thingy. That's when to dump the car. If one of those goes, pretty much a certainty that the others aren't that far behind.

That's my humble opinion.

PS: I've frequently NOT taken my own advice and purchased a car just because I couldn't stand the old one anymore. Cars become annoying to me when little things stop working and I wake up one day to realize that I'm putting up with too much!
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Bob, its that new car smell. Like a slice of heaven...
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
Are there other factors that make your insurance higher such as underage drivers or accidents on your file?
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
I agree with Bob. And don't buy a new car. You should always buy a car that is pre-owned. You lose about 30% of the sticker price just driving off the lot. And never buy the first year of a new production model.

Of course, I bought my car (Mazda 626) 4 years ago for $2,000 and it's got 235,000 miles on it.
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
I was wondering if your location, Hawaii, had anything to do with the higher insurance rate. Then again, the make and model might affect the insurance premium. I dunno.

Best advice, only buy a car if you really really want one, and you can afford it comfortably.

I have taken Kayla's advice and bought both certified-used cars and used cars. For someone who buys a car, pays it off, and holds onto that car for a long period of time, that is very sound advice.

For someone who buys a new car every two years and has no problems having a car payment forever, there is a strange point at which the payments tend to stabilize, so long as the vehicles stay comparable.

I used to be in this zone, then paid off a vehicle way early, then traded it in on something too expensive, and now have a nice fat car payment for 60 months. This is a good example of what not to do.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
My only thing against to the "buy a recent-vintage used car" is if you are purchasing a car with a great warranty, like a Hyundai or a Kia (and maybe some others). The reason is that the warranty is a great thing and even though it may transfer with a used Kia or Hyundai, the real advantage of it comes in those first few years of ownership.

It's just nice having a zero-defect car for a little while.

I think these makes probably still lose a lot of their value the instant you drive them off the lot, but then the next big dropoff is likely to be when that extended warranty runs out.

Oh well. Still, economically, it's probably better to buy a 2 year old used car than a brand new one.

Oh, another reason to buy newer cars though -- better safety equipment.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
I just don't like the first year of a production model because I knew someone who owned one and during the first year, she drove it less than 4 months. The rest of the time, it was in the shop being fixed.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
I still want to buy a 1995 BMW 7 series; for $15000... It will cost much insurance, however.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
Thanks for all of your replies. I've been at a high school wrestling meet all afternoon (my daughter won her first match woo hoo!!!) so I haven't been able to respond.

I did have my teenaged son on my insurance until a couple of years ago, but since Aug 2003 he's been living in CA and not on my insurance. Taking him and his car off of my policy dropped my yearly premium by less than $100. My daughter was living with me when her insurance was less than mine, so the area didn't figure into that. I have no tickets or accidents in my driving history.

I'm not really tired of the car. I'm just terrified of getting stranded somewhere and being without transportation while my car is being worked on. I've never considered a car an investment... just a necessary tool to let me live my life. I know that trading in a car is not the best thing to do economically, but I don't have the temperment to get rid of it on my own. IMO the only thing worse than shopping for a car is trying to sell one, and I'm willing to lose some money for that convenience.

I drove by a car dealer today after the wrestling match. I parked on the street, so that I could make a quick get-away if necessary and my younger daughter and I got out and started walking towards the lot. All the salesmen were having a meeting or something under an awning in front and they all turned to watch us walk over. After a minute, I realized that we must be in the truck lot, because I didn't see any cars at all... so we quickly walked back to the car and drove off... with all of the salesmen smiling and waving. It was kind of scary.

I may go out again on Monday, since it's a holiday, although I was hoping to meet up with ElJay and get halfway real also. I'll let you know what I decide to do.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Go car shopping with ElJay!

You'll either end up with a really cool pickup truck, or a shopping cart.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
I used to be a mechanic at a New/Used (Mazda VW BMW Volvo) dealership, and the first thing that jumped out at me when I read your post is that you say "the car has never been in the shop."

What does this mean? Has it had oil changes? Tune ups? It wouldn't have survived 100k if the oil wasn't changed, so I discount that, but there are basic services that come along every 30,000 miles or so, that are usually too big to forget. So I assume you've never had those.

It may be surprising coming from a mechanic, but often you can get away without those major services, until you really need one. Say at 90,000 miles you have a 90,000 mile service, there maybe very little noticable difference between the condition of the car of that age after just that one service and a similar car that had 30K and 60K services. (Provided the oil was changed, of course. How often did you do that?)

So the first thing I might suggest is that you should have a major service. The biggest killers of fuel mileage are clogged air filter, spark plugs, fuel injectors, and fuel filter. Usually in that order. You should also have all your belts changed, (and you didn't mention brakes, so that'll cost a fair bit) those are the biggest sources of noises.

Bear in mind that the shop will give you a rundown of what's needed before they start the work. Often they'll give you a free estimate, so you can decide then.

As far as buying a new car is concerned (new to you anyway) I agree with those who way to buy a 2 year old car. Actually, I have found that cars that are turned in at the first major service interval are the best buy. So a Mazda with 30K on it probably has nothing wrong with it, the owner just felt that paying a couple of month's payments for one service wasn't worth it, when they could just trade it in on a new one. The dealership will do the 30k before they sell it, so you end up with a very nice car for a couple thousand less than a new one.

BTW, for a car this age, I don't recommend trading it in at a dealership. All they'll do is give you the wholesale value, and sell it to a wholesaler. You'll do better to look up the value on KBB.com and sell it yourself.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
I do have the oil changed every 3000 miles or so, but I've never had any other service on the car. Maybe the air filter too, but I'm not positive about that.

I think I'll ask people at work to recommend a mechanic for a tune-up. Thanks for the list. I'm really not very car savvy.

[ January 15, 2005, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: maui babe ]
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
Glenn, I just re-read your post and I missed the VW part before.

Tell me your opinion of Jettas. I've been thinking about getting a 2 or 3 year old Jetta - only partly to appease my teenaged daughter. I test drove a new Jetta this summer and really liked it. I hear they're the safest car in their class also. But a new one is a little out of my price range.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I love my new-car warranty, because I know that if something on my car breaks for the next few years, they pay for it to be fixed and give me a rental if it takes awhile.

Nice to have the money part be fairly predictable.
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
When I lived in California there was a lady in our building who drove a De Lorean. When it was in the shop they lent her a Lotus Espirit. :died and went to heaven just looking at it:
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I LOVE my Honda. I have a 1995 Civic that my father bought at the beginning of the model year. He put 175,000 on it, kept up with scheduled maintenance, had it in for some other things that came up over the years, and then last summer started jonesing for a CR-V. Since I didn't have anything at the time beyond pedal power, he gave me the Civic. I'm now up to almost 190,000 and it's still running sweet.

I had a Neon once upon a time, I think it was a '97. Bought it used with about 50,000. I had it three months and was already in the shop with radiator problems. Six months after that it was in again for transmission. I got rid of it at that point because I couldn't see funneling even more money into it with two majors in 9 months. Plus I was living in an area with excellent public transportation. Then there are the two extended-family-owned minivans who had transmissions manage to leak into the radiators and trash both systems simultaneously.... Never again will I buy Chrysler.

Oh, and my dream car, JH, is a 1982 BMW 320i.... =)
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
My parents bought a program car that was two years old...a Ford Taurus...and they love it, It had it's first schedualed tune up at 100,000 miles, and it has never needed work.

They paid 10,400 for it....about 6,000 less than sticker for a new one, and it's warrenty was outstanding.

Now they are getting ready to retire, so they bought a Honda Accord, and love it too....but they still have the Taurus as well, and my dad said it was the best car they have ever owned. It now has over 139,000 on it and it runs perfect.

Kwea
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
I snagged a new Toyota Tacoma almost a year ago - drove it off the lot with a sweet 46 original miles on it. (And straight to the Pastor for a blessing.) My blood pressure and stress immediately decreased, just knowing that I could now get from point A to point B safely and without breaking down. A year of payments later (at 1.9% interest, I might add) I have still put less money into the new rig than I had in the last six months I owned my old Chevy Beretta. I'm all for brand spanking new!

One of the things to consider in vehicles and insurance is what young drivers tend to drive - which vastly increases the amount of insurance you'll pay, even if you aren't a teen or young driver. For example, my insurance company told me if I went with a new KIA, I'd pay at least twice the amount of insurance I pay on the T.T.

Interesting, hmmm . . .
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Ok, this might sound a little nuts, but I love cars, and I have a car buying problem.

Here are the cars I have owned since 1992:

1988 Ford Taurus
1991 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer (nice)
1986 VW Fox
1993 Ford Taurus
1997 Ford Mustang GT Convertible (really nice)
1997 Dodge Grand Caravan (very very practical, more than the Explorer even)
1997 Ford Taurus
1999 VW Passat Turbo (the most enjoyable car I have ever owned)
1997 Ford F-150 Lariat (sweet truck)
2000 Nissan Pathfinder (blah)
2000 Ford F-150 XLT
2001 Ford Expedition (stable as a cat, right side up or upside down, it went anywhere. Awesome)
2003 Cadillac CTS (coolest car I have owned, like a fighter jet inside love it or hate it)
2004 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (very nice)
2004 Chevy Avalanche 2500 (engine is on steroids, a whole lotta power)
2005 Chevy Suburban (finally, a car I might keep awhile!)

I am missing a couple, but you get the general idea. My wife jokes that my next car is going to come from Enterprise or Hertz, and my co-workers ask me weekly what car I am buying next.

If I were going to recommend a sedan, like your Neon, I would very much recommend the Honda you were parusing or would recommend you check out the Toyota Corolla, especially in the sporty trim. That is a very fun car to drive also!

[ January 16, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Alucard... ]
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
I should clarify two things:

Somewhere around the Pathfinder is when we moved from Chicago to PA. The dealerships were not as diverse in PA. As time went on, I became more concerned with the service and treatment I got from a dealer, and that I why I have been buying Chevys and Cadillacs, because of the people I want to do business with. Deep down, I love all cars, but have a special place in my heart for Fords...

Also, there was the excellent addition to my earlier post by Glenn that reinforces the idea to research the value of your trade as well as the value of your new purchase. Although you might get more money for your trade in if you sell it yourself outright, it is a hassle, and it sounds like this is undesireable to you anyway.

I have never sold a car outright, I just keep trading them in. Now SOMETIMES, the salesperson likes to get creative and tries to give an inflated trade (increasing your trade to at or above book value) and tries to sell you a car at sticker price. I would avoid this tactic. There are many online pricing websites mentioned above, but a very GENERAL calculation is that the dealer pays invoice at about 80-85% of sticker price, and as high as 90% on some imports.

I recommend going to a dealer when there are very good incentives and then haggling off of the invoice price (the price the dealer paid for the car) and go up from there. The dealer should not be making more than $1000 over invoice, unless you want to give them your money. Once that deal is worked out, then you can start to haggle on the trade, and be prepared to take an initial low ball here. This is where they will try to make up the fantastic deal you might have negotiated on the new car...

However, unless you know someone at the dealer, they will many times be reluctant to just whip out the invoice and start giving away a new car. However, if there are incentives on the vehicle, you should negotiate those in addition to the deal over invoice or off the sticker. Those incentives come from the manufacturer, not the dealership.

And then, after your heart nearly explodes through your sternum, your new car purchase is complete!
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Maui Babe:

I worked at the dealership 15 years ago. I don't have any real personal opinion of any car on the market today, other than my Prius. I was commenting on buying vs. servicing, which I don't think has changed.

From what I understand from Consumer Reports, VW has the worst service record of just about any of the major foreign car manufacturers. Then again, just about any foreign car is still likely to be better than any american car, as far as reliability goes.

I liked VWs because I find them very comfortable. The interior is nicely appointed and well laid out. They generally have good headroom and visibility through the windsheild for a tall person. The Jetta used to have an unbelievably large trunk, for a car of it's size. I assume that hasn't changed.

My brother has owned several jettas and he loves them. But he's not a mechanic and I think he tends to trade cars in when they reach the age where they need servicing.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
My Neon is the first model year with the new body style and upgraded engine. After I bought it I heard a lot of horror stories about Neons, but apparently they worked out a lot of the bugs with the new design and I've had no trouble with it. I don't think I'll ever buy another Chrysler though.

I appreciate all of your input. I think I've decided to take Glenn and Bob's advice and spend a couple of hundred dollars on some service and hopefully get another year or two out of it.

I feel somewhat like if I buy a newer car, I'll just stress out that it'll get scratched or something. Also, my 15 year old will be learning to drive soon. I'd just as soon teach her on an older car with standard transmission.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Standard? You mean automatic?

I'm a firm believer in teaching kids to drive on a manual transmission. It's just my opinion, but I've found that the only people who know how to drive a stick shift are the people who learned on one. That and once they know how to drive, it's much more difficult to teach them something new.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
A standard transmission is a manual transmission.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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I'm a firm believer in teaching kids to drive on a manual transmission. It's just my opinion, but I've found that the only people who know how to drive a stick shift are the people who learned on one.

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quote:

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A standard transmission is a manual transmission.

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Excellent. You learn something new everyday.
 

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