This is topic Why don't we have programs to help men be more represented in daycare and teaching? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
Is that a rhetorical question? I don't know, maybe.
It seems to me that we are very worried that there aren't enough women who are engineers and scientists, but I guess we aren't that worried that there aren't more men who are elementary teachers or daycare workers.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Part of its that there's not a large number of men clamoring to get into those fields/about still-existing inequities in them as there are women in re engineering and such.
While there are some social barriers for men in those fields, I think you'll find that for the most part men who choose to go into them manage to succeed in them on a level comparable to women, whereas women who go into engineering and such regularly find themselves at firms where they are significantly held back due to their gender.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Maybe true a while ago. Not true now.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think that as a society we don't want men in these fields, because we consider men who are interested in these fields to be likely child molesters.
We also consider daycare worker to be a demeaning career, as evidenced by the low pay, and so we have no need to encourage men (or anyone else) to enter the field.
Is that the answer you were looking for? Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I can think of several instances just from talking to jatraquero engineering women of them having fairly significant problems due to gender discrimination.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Males experience gender discrimination in massage therapy.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I can definitely believe that.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
When I was involved with science and math, people bent over backwards to help me. According to Banna, a female engineer, when a woman is qualified there are people clamoring for her. No, what you said is no longer generally true.
[ January 19, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Fugu: Bigot Hubby is a massage therapist. We estimate 80% of women and 95% of men avoid being worked on by a man.
P.S. So why'd you get out of it, L.J.?
[ January 19, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yes, demand is high for female engineers. That has little to do with whether or not barriers still exist for them in the industry.
In fact, from an economic analysis perspective, a high demand coupled with a low supply, as there is, suggests an artificial barrier of some kind.
mothertree:
[ January 19, 2005, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
<--- admited bigot. Unless I have a chance to get to know the man, I'd feel somewhat uncomfortable with having a man watch my kids. I do know one man who works in daycare fairly well, and though I'm sure he's not a pedophile, I still wouldn't choose him over a woman I also trusted.
And I prefer male massage therapists. Nothing hinky about it -- the only experience I've had with massage therapy has been with a male therapist.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and my Dad's a home health care nurse .
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:In fact, from an economic analysis perspective, a high demand couples with a low supply, as there is, suggests an artificial barrier of some kind.
From the Conspiracy Theorists Economics handbook? It suggests there is a cause and reason, but barriers is a loaded word.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
In this case, barrier is an economic word.
edit to make clear: barrier refers to an obstacle or impediment to the free realization of supply-demand interplay, (further edit: that is, the free realization of supply-demand interplay results in equilibrium) resulting (theoretically) in equilibrium. (Think trade barrier, economic barrier, monetary barrier).
In cases of shortage, such as there is with engineering women, there is some barrier preventing women (the people who provide that supply) from producing (getting engineering educations, basically) that product.
[ January 19, 2005, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"I think that as a society we don't want men in these fields, because we consider men who are interested in these fields to be likely child molesters."
This is true. It is not true that they ARE molesters, but that is often(sadly) an employer's/parents first thought. I hope this will change, but I do not foresee more men going into these fields.
This discussion reminds me of a friend whose son was going into nursing. Everyone would ask her, after she told them, "Oh, so he's going to be a male nurse?"
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Frankly, I know of no programs to recruit anyone into teaching, male or female.
(Erasing diatribe about touchy feely girlie teachers who really want to play with dolls)
Those who've read my posts on education know that I spend a lot of time trying to undo the myth that the American education system is failing our kids. It isn't. It isn't perfect, but it's damn good.
But I have a pet peeve/hypothesis regarding recruiting, and the type of person I believe should be recruited into the teaching profession.
First of all, I think recruiting should be as active as the military. "Be all that you can be....Be a teacher!" On every TV station.
But teachers should be recruited out of high school. I think we should conduct surveys of high performing teachers, and try to establish a profile of what kind of high school student becomes a great teacher. Then we should use that profile to recruit teachers into college, rather then rely on teenagers to make that decision themselves. Waiting until you've finished your bachelor's degree is way too late to discover that you didn't really believe that teaching is hard work, and that kids aren't just cute toys to play with.
See, I think the best teachers are the people that never thought they would want to teach. Those are the ones who will be genuinely sympathetic to students who are struggling. But these people need to be convinced that they will be rewarded as teachers. That's where recruitment comes in.
Perhaps also we should try to recruit teachers out of industry. Especially math and science teachers, because so many students just don't buy it when the teacher tells them that "You will need this later on in your life." Someone that has been in the field can give real life examples, and bring the subject to life.
Unfortunately, it usually goes the other way, with industry recruiting math and science teachers from schools.
And finally: I think we need to recruit African-American teachers.
I hear people say that black children need black role models, and I couldn't agree more. But the fact is, white children need black role models, in order to undermine prejudice. For all the black college students who are taking "black studies" courses, it seems to me that becoming a teacher is the best and purest form of activism that they can do. Standing there and being smart in front of impressionable children doesn't require an agenda, and children who work under a fair and patient black teacher will be unable to hold on to the prejudices their parents teach them.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:When I was involved with science and math, people bent over backwards to help me. According to Banna, a female engineer, when a woman is qualified there are people clamoring for her. No, what you said is no longer generally true.
I don't mean to be rude, but you seem awfully sure of yourself talking about an industry that you've never actually been a part of. Consider that the proportion of female engineers to male engineers at almost any company is quite low, and that the proportion of female engineering managers to male engineering managers is even lower. I just left a company employing tens of thousands of people, and despite the fact that I met a whole lot of engineers, only a handful of them were women, and of those I can think of only one or two that were not junior engineers, much less in management.
[ January 19, 2005, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
By the way, my understanding is that there are plenty of male teachers, just that they are mostly in grades 6-12 instead of K-5.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:When I was involved with science and math, people bent over backwards to help me. According to Banna, a female engineer, when a woman is qualified there are people clamoring for her. No, what you said is no longer generally true.
When I was in high school, I clearly stated that I wanted to go into engineering. My guidance counselor still tried to talk me out of taking advanced math courses and into taking interior decorating. His rationale? I'd be needing to "make a home" someday and I should be able to make it attractive.
Granted, I'm a decade or so older than kat, but I think it still varies from school to school whether girls/women are supported in "non-traditional" fields.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
As a female engineering student, I don't remember ever encountering any serious barriers. Mostly, my teachers treat me the same way as they seem to treat a guy who performs at my level. I suspect that the male engineering students may sort of resent my abilities, but I can't tell whether they'd resent a male version of me just as much. I don't think I get much benefit at this point out of being female either, though.
It may be a lot different in industry. I will also note that most of my professors have been male, which I suppose could be considered a barrier for female students. On the education side of it, in high school I would estimate that at least half of my teachers were male.
[ January 19, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Shigosei ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
That is so weird. When I was in HS, I took engineering classes without any guff at all from anyone. I was the only girl usually.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Uh, dkw, I don't think you're a decade or so older . . .
I specifically did not address academics as a major remaining problem, in large part because one can expect fellow students to have relatively modern attitudes for the most part.
Also, a lot of the biggest problems with gender (and other forms of) discrimination do not involve someone giving someone else "trouble", but instead things like women being passed over in favor of lesser qualified men to a larger extent.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
My college had a running joke about the ratio of men to women being approximately pi. But my experience in industry is that it's more like 20:1 or even 50:1.
There was a lot of overt sexism at my college, although never from the professors.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In my experiences in IT, and as a fringe observer of the engineering field, there are still substantial barriers to advancement for women. Why? Because, by and large, the people who still do the hiring and firing are the old guard, and they like to think of engineering women, if they think of them at all, as cute little things needing to be mentored (and needing help getting things down from high shelves). If you aren't a cute little needy thing, you're probably a lesbian by default.
[ January 19, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"I know of no programs to recruit anyone into teaching, male or female."
Actually, there are, but most are for teaching in inner cities(it used to be with children with disabilities, too, but I think that changed)
A friend's daughter is in a program at Westfield State College in W. Mass, which is a program encouraging minority youth to teach. (I think, specifically in Springfield-not sure) She is white. They asked why she was applying, and she stated that she was a minority in her high school.
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
"I know of no programs to recruit anyone into teaching, male or female."
In addition to what Elizabeth brought there are now scholarships in several states where the state will pay for your college education in return for you teaching for a certain number of years in a 'high need' area determined by the state. I don't know the details because I'm not interested in teaching, but that's a powerful incentive.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I work in the ECE field - we would love to see more men involved. However, the biggest barrier is the payscale. Most men can pull down a job somewhat above minimum wage by just digging ditches. ECE (for classroom staff - teachers, assistants, etc.) barely pays above minimum wage, even with education and training, and the room for advancement is rather limited. Unless you move into training, state/federal level management(such as licensing, contract management, etc.)
Head Start tends to hire more men - but they have developed career paths and better pay for the ECE market.
ECE could pay more if the administration, facilities, transportation, etc., were subsidized as are public schools by property taxes and the federal government - but that would be a huge policy and cultural shift for this country.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
As a woman engineering I can tell you that as a student I had the same experience as Lady Day with people elated to have one more woman entering the field. When I was seeking my first job, I had the same experience with companies actively seeking woman. Unfortunately, once I started work I had a very different experience and so has virtually every woman engineer I know. The first time I experienced gender discrimination I was totally shocked because I had coem to believe it was just myth perpetuated by whiners. Unfortunately, it is no myth. Discrimination in the work place is real.
It is not only women who suffer, men who are in non-traditional fields like nursing, library sciences, elementary ed, etc. also experience it. In fact, I think that discrimination against men in non-traditional fields is generally worse than what woman experience.
I think that it is interesting that the number of men in elementary education has actually been decreasing over the past few decades (at least in this region). When I was a kid, there were several male teachers (usually in the 5th and 6th grades) and a male principal. Now the local elementary schools have no men at all except for the janitors. I have been told that this is largely because men have become very concerned about false accusations of child molestation and parents have become very concerned that men may molest their children. This seems totally unfair -- there have been plenty of cases of women molesting children so this should not be viewed as a gender specific issue.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I think men should be encouraged to be teachers. Out of all of the non-music teachers I have had my top five favorites are men.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
This is, I suspect, statistically likely, Allegra. As more and more men are driven from teaching by prejudice, the more likely it is that the ones who remain are deeply committed to the profession.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
There are some cultural issues at play with men in elementary education. My ex-girlfriend is an elementary school teacher, and the very few men who were on her staff weren't the most competent characters, yet even they freely bossed around the women on staff. It was a strange dynamic.
I can't make sense of it, but I do think it's good fodder for thinking.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Actually, there are, but most are for teaching in inner cities(it used to be with children with disabilities, too, but I think that changed
I should clarify: I know of know programs whose purpose is to recruit people into the teaching profession, who have not already chosen to become teachers.
The programs to get people to teach in inner cities are designed to convince people to teach in the city, as opposed to somewhere else. These people usually are just out of college looking for a job, and just beginning to pay off their student loans.
No, what I'm talking about is more like what the military does, going around to High Schools and looking for Juniors and Seniors that fit the profile they are looking for, offering them help in deciding on their goals, and then getting them training so they can do the job they need them to do.
I also know people in industry who do just that. In some cases it's kind of like an apprenticeship. One guy actually works for the school system (vocational machine trades), but also gets paid by a local manufacturing company to hook them up with his best students.
Recruiting is more than just filling empty spaces with bodies. And unfortunately, that's what happens more often than not with these inner city programs.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I know of know programs whose purpose is to recruit people into the teaching profession, who have not already chosen to become teachers.
There are actually quite a few programs out there designed to bring people out of semi-retirement or the professional sector to teach, and to this end lowers the courseload and certification requirements for aspiring teachers from those backgrounds. I'm not sure this is really a great idea, mind you, but it exists.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
At my old high school they have a cadet teaching program, that students are incouraged to partisipate in their senior year. You go two hours a day to an elementary and help a class there, you have to do two lesson plans and teach those lessons. Out of 12 of us, two were boys, but both of them are now majoring in elementary ed, several of the girls just took it to get out two hours early, then sat in the teacher's lounge at their elementary. It was a worthwile experience, but not quite what you're looking for.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
My wife worked for a nationwide franchised day care. In thier rule books they say NOT to hire men for the would be legally responsible if you hired a pedophile.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Seems like it would be a scandal if that ever got out.
I currently teach in a relatively large public high school, and I would say that female teachers substantially outnumber male teachers. Male teachers are more common at the high school level, but still far from equal in numbers to female teachers.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Dan, I don't see how they can get away with hiring practices like that. Of course they should conduct background checks, but it's unfair to assume that all men are pedophiles and that women never are.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dang. People are sort of... mentally imprisoned when it comes to gender roles.
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
I'm the coordinator for the teacher preparation program at my high school.
Texas has a great program for teacher prep in high schools- it's coordinated by Texas A&M. In my program every student in the school takes a survey about their interest in teaching in early september. If they expressed interest they are formally invited to join the future teacher's club. Based on teacher recommendations and student participation in FTA, students are then placed on an "Education Track." On this track they take Child Development, Exploring Education Careers, and then Ready Set Teach. Each course introduces them to different aspects of working with children at every age and all involve classroom experience at the elementary, middle and high school(special ed and ESL) levels.
It has been incredibly rewarding for me to watch my students mentor and teach other youth.
Oh- and the enrollement... this semester- 38 males out of 62 students.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
These classes take the place of electives, or do they take the place of core classes? Are future teachers encouraged to take a particular level of math, science, or language arts, or does it depend on what they want to teach?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"There are some cultural issues at play with men in elementary education. My ex-girlfriend is an elementary school teacher, and the very few men who were on her staff weren't the most competent characters, yet even they freely bossed around the women on staff. It was a strange dynamic."
Wow, not my experience at all! I do think there are cultural issues, however. The male elementary teachers I have worked with have been very innovative, very regular-voiced, and very non-primary-color. (I cannot stand the baby talk that many elementary teachers use.)In other words, they break the paradigm of the elementary school teacher, and are often excluded from lunch-room games.
In my experience, the elementary school can have some powerful cliques.
Edit: I am referring more to early elementary. Very few male k-3 teachers
[ January 19, 2005, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
My classes are electives, but if all are taken they count in place of some of the academic electives in the graduation requirements and the PE req. is waived if they take the senior level class.
This program is only in it's third year, and I'm still working on getting all the counselors on the same page, but ideally, students would take the recommended 4 years of Math, Science and English for the university-bound student plan. Many of my students focus their other electives in the area in which they want to teach.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Once I get myself established professionally, I think I might like to find a place where I could teach some kind of intro to law class, either High School or undergrad. Probably some kind of enrichment program after school or some such.
I have little patience for learning generalized, formal pedagogy (not because I think there's anything wrong with it, but because of my personality), and I hope it's possible to teach such a program without such training.
Dagonee
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Dag, in Springfield, there is program called >(brain cramp)<, where lawyers come into class, present a case, and the kids take roles. I am sure there are others.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm in my Junior year of undergrad going for a BA in History with secondary education certification, and I'm a guy. Personally I never for a moment considered teaching anything under 8th grade, mostly because I love history, and you can't teach JUST history at the lower grades. Plus I don't connect well with younger kids, though I'm perfectly happy playing board games with my little cousins when I babysit them, I'd never want to try and teach them anything.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I believe you don't need a teaching credential to teach at the college level. Community colleges are good if you don't have a doctorate or some kind of connection at a university.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
ack, I've got to catch up on this thread since my name has been invoked.
I'd like to point out that even though female engineers are often in demand as hiring goes so that they can be the "token" female to show that there isn't discrimination going on. This does *not* necessarily mean that they get paid more. (I wish I could open the books at my company somehow and see but I suspect we get paid less, though still within acceptable industry standards...) It also does not mean that there isn't day to day discrimination either. Fortunately in my company I have had the luxury of having several competent female engineers in my company before me (and still working for the company to day) and as a result professional gender discrimination is far less, in my job.
I'm lucky. Many industries still don't have many women in them, and that's where things are a lot tougher.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'm not sure what to do about the decline of men in education. It saddens me. Probably one of the largest male role models in my life, was Mr. Daniels the local children's librarian. In hindsight I have realized that even though my mother genuinely liked him she was always just a little wary around us with him, more so with my brothers than with me, because Mr. Daniels was gay. And then I remember how wonderful Mr. Daniels (his first name was Wilbur like Charlotte's web) was with kids and it makes me sadder and sadder.
On the other hand bad things do happen and its hard to have a society based on trust and integrity when every one is suspicious and lawsuit happy.
However I see a lot of parallels between women in engineering and the African American experience. Both have benefited hugely from civil rights. The number of wealthy African Americans has slowly but steadily been increasing over the last fifty years. However it will probably be at least another hundred years before parity will be attained on a wide scale (if it is.) And I think women in engineering are actually way behind the curve that Blacks are on, as far as rate of increase goes and parity in society. This is as Tom said, due to the establishment.
It takes decades for the old white men who ran things because that was the way it was, die off and younger people start coming into those positions. Great progress has been made but there is still a long ways to go.
AJ
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
quote: "I think that as a society we don't want men in these fields, because we consider men who are interested in these fields to be likely child molesters."
A few years ago, in the nursery, we had two men working for us, and one mom came to me and said she wanted a policy that men could not change diapers. I told her that such a policy would be discrimination, but if she wanted I would come get her when her daughter needed changing. One of the guys is still with us, and decided that he would just not change diapers.
Butnyeah, I can see why things like this would deter men.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Sounds like there are some programs out there. The cadet program sounds very good, as well as the program to bring people out of retirement.
And Tom, I think it's a very good idea, even if sometimes it's a bad idea.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Wow, I can't imagine saying I wouldn't let a man change my kids diaper. We have men that work with our young kids at church, in fact it's encouraged. For the children's church, they ask for couples to volunteer, so normally it's taught by a husband/wife team.
I looked into several programs that would have helped pay for my college costs, for people wanting to become teachers. To qualify, I would have to want to either teach math or science (which I don't) or be willing to teach in inner city schools.
Forgive me, but I don't want to teach in an inner city school. For one thing, it would put me so far away from my own children, if they needed something and it was an emergency, I couldn't very well get to them quickly. For another, I don't want to deal with the traffic and the long drives. Thirdly, and most important, my husband said he woulnd't allow me to work in one of those schools unless I agreed to wear a bullet proof vest. They sound way too uncomfortable to wear all day.
And he's coming at it from a position of having to go into those schools often as a paramedic and patch up bullet and knife wounds, so one can understand why he wouldn't want his wife in that environment.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Lemme see... A typical daycare worker makes less in wages&benefits than a fastfood chain worker. With no way to increase earnings unless the daycare manager quits, is fired, or dies -- and the owner then decides that the worker is qualified to run a business. Yep, just what an aspiring breadwinner wants as a career.
[ January 20, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
aspectre, the guy also has to be qualified to be a daycare manager by state law. The qualifications for just being a daycare provider are a lot different than being the manager of daycare facility. I think here the person must have a bachelor's degree in early childhood development. I'd have to look it up, but I used to be on the review board for the daycare my daughter goes to. When the manager quit (she was moving to Seattle) we ended up having to close the daycare because we couldn't find anyone qualified and willing to take the job. Happy ending to the story though...the woman we wanted to take over management (originally the asst manager who was qualified but unwilling) agreed at the last minute because ownership of the daycare facility changed hands. She still manages it and is better even than the one who left.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
The difficulties associated with teaching in inner-city schools are exactly why they have to offer incentive programs to get people to work there. I hope you don't feel bad or defensive about the choice you're making not to do so, Belle -- it's just an incentive, and you certainly shouldn't feel forced to take it if it isn't what you want for your life right now.
I can see where the incentive might be sufficient for someone who doesn't have small children dependent on them, or is otherwise more predisposed to take the risk. It isn't right for your life, though, and that is (should be) a perfectly reasonable and respectable decision to make.
[ January 20, 2005, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm not willing to do it either.
They need teachers, but it's not a challenge I personally want to face.
More power to those that do.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Like Coccinelle.
Added: Her work stories are much more exciting than my work stories.
[ January 20, 2005, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
some of the rural schools that are in desperate need of good teachers are within easy driving distance of me, and I would certainly be willing to take a job there. They have some of the same problems the inner city schools do, the low test scores, poor parental involvement, etc. Just not the risk to life and limb.
It's really sad, I have nothing against working with troubled kids, I just don't want to get shot.
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