quote:

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You will realize that every teacher your students will ever have has been required to take education courses that inculcate them with theories that do not work, and that the really good teachers tend to be good to exactly the same degree that they ignore what their education professors taught them.

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quote:

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You will also understand why our kids are no longer taught history, geography, or grammar in any meaningful way; why homework increases yet learning doesn't; and why the brightest students are often maddeningly bored while the least talented students are scarcely helped.

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New brain research dealing with the different modes of learning is being taken seriously in our curriculum. One book we've used called Understanding By Design focuses on planning units backwards, basing them on an essential question and meaningful assessment.

Most of this has been ground-breaking for me and has greatly added to my knowledge of how to be one of those great teachers. My professors are constantly challenging us to think of how to teach the honors kids, the ESL kids, the disabled kids....and all their different backgrounds to boot. I'm often overwhelmed by it, but I feel like I'm learning a lot and being truly enlightened about how to increase the learning.

Maybe I'm sheltered, and maybe Oregon has better schools than it thinks it does (I believe this is true), but I see many teachers learning how to effectively use cooperative techniques in the classroom where students work in groups, teach each other, and everyone learns. I see less homework and more really cool projects that require critical thinking skills. I blasted through school without the ability to think critically. I find myself behind a lot of my colleagues in this area as I begin to wrap my mind around some interesting concepts. (Hatrack has helped me a lot with this.)

Perhaps I'm offended by these comments because I am in such an intense program and I'm getting field experience while I myself learn in a classroom. I have to admit that most teaching credentials are embedded in an undergraduate program and they include one semester of field experience and a few education classes which don't have time to delve very deep.

Yet most school districts require that a teacher receive a Masters degree within 5 years of a new hire. That's encouraging. With all the good teaching of teachers that I see being done, I think the number of really good and effective teachers in the US is increasing. There are huge problems...bilingual education being one of the largest and most depressing in my opinion. But *I'm* being taught how to teach everyone in a meaningful way. And I think more and more of us are.

But then, I might have an idealistic 'new teacher' viewpoint from a state with one of the highest standards for a teaching credential.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Keep in mind that OSC has never been shy about slandering an entire profession and all its members just because he buys into the soundbyte media stereotype. It's not that he hates you, Narnia; he just hates hypothetical modern teachers in general.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Did OSC read the Gifted Education thread?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
That's my point though Tom. I would have to say that modern teachers are better than they've ever been! And it isn't just a 'once in a blue moon' situation like the inspirational teachers in the movies.

I feel like someone wrote those comments about 30 years ago and published them today.

[speaking of good teachers, my grammar sucks!]

[ January 24, 2005, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
The thing is Narnia most of the states don't have the kind of rigor you are describing in your process. And many of the teachers that were teaching 25 years ago still haven't retired yet...(the 30 year veterans are finally starting to retire) If the teaching profession is changing it is changing from the bottom up, which is the hardest way to go about it and will also face the most resistance from individuals who liked it the "old way".

AJ

[ January 24, 2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I would have to say that modern teachers are better than they've ever been!"

I would agree. And crime has been trending down since Clinton's first term. And teenage pregnancy has been on the decline for years.

But while we all know these things, we don't internalize these lessons because it's more fun to blame the stereotypes for things.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Tom - yeah, I understand what you mean.

AJ - I understand what YOU mean too. That comment about reforming from the bottom up makes a lot of sense. That's one thing that I'm noticing while I work with my cooperating/mentor teacher. He's been teaching for 25+ years and he's a great teacher...but he's behind the times as far as knowing how to teach ESL students and those mentally disabled kids that are mainstreamed into the classroom.

And a lot of the old teachers are stuck in their routines of lecture, worksheet, multiple choice test. It's hard to even get many of them to learn how to use the internet.

But, I think it's looking up. And even though all of the above is true, comments like "You will realize that every teacher your students will ever have..." imply that to OSC, it's all gloom and doom from here on out. I'll have to find that book he read, it must have been pretty depressing.

[edit to clarify]

[ January 24, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Being a teacher must be one of the hardest jobs out there. I don't know why so many teachers get so much criticism.
I know in my schools we had some teachers that didn't really do anything but show us videos or talk about horoscopes, but we had a lot that had to put up with rude kids who didn't want to learn, with not having enough resources and with other annoying teachers.
I have a ton of respect for them, especially since I doubt I could be a teacher due to my shyness and the fact that kids would step all over me.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Syn, you'd be surprised at how much the kids want YOU to succeed as a teacher, if you enter with some enthusiasm and even an iota of caring for them. I was floored by that. I was really encouraged when I realized that they didn't have dripping fangs and books of strategy about how to make me fail.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
My father wants me to be a teacher... Maybe I should try it, but the thought scares me because I still remember going to school myself. Teachers have to know how to yell, at least most of mine had to.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Narnia, also about the bottom up is that there are still antiquated profs in teaching schools too. Especially in more backwater areas, like, dare I say,("dare, dare") North Carolina?

AJ
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Possibly. But usually the teachers that land in university or teacher education gigs are required to have a PhD or another type of doctorate. These are the teachers that are writing the books and doing the research in their classrooms to help us all figure out what in the heck we're doing. Even in my podunky Idaho Jr. College (back then when it was Ricks), the professors (several of whom only had their masters degrees) were dynamite. Because I was raised in the "lecture, worksheet, multiple choice test" tradition, learning how to be a teacher from these professors was mind-bending for me.

I don't know that professors are teaching like this everywhere, but I think the standards are pretty high to teach at a college or university.

[ January 24, 2005, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
You could be right. Though I'd say often profs are actually better at smaller out of the way schools than those that are well known (across the board no matter what the subject.)

AJ
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Not necessarily...

Recalls the "Math teacher from hell thread"
Recalls many of her own professors.
Recalls pretty much every TA

Frankly, I think I could do the job most of even my children's gifted teacher's do with about a year of education and some supplementing classes throughout my career (good for any career, I think) I'm in their classroom every week, and see what the teachers actually have to do. I'm not trying to downplay their job by any means. It is a very difficult and demanding job. It is one of the most important jobs in our society.

But so much of it is just plain common sense and sincere empathy with how the child is thinking. You can't get that through an education.

[ January 24, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
*shakes head* I haven't read the essay, and I'm not going to tonight. I'm a student teacher myself and I do have to say that my experience is very similar to Narnia's - except that I'm in a young department with good teachers on my current teaching placement. There are enough teachers on this board who by their own lives and examples give the lie to OSC's comments. I'm not one of them yet, but I hope and intend to be. That said, when you spend your weekend planning lessons or marking or evaluating lessons or doing some other student-teacher-hoop-jumping, and spend your week teaching during the day and learning or planning during the evening; when you push yourself as hard as you can go to be the best teacher you can be so that the students you teach get the best education that you can give, when you go out of your way for individual kids in all sorts of little ways - not just gifted kids, kids with special needs or kids with english as a second language but any kid who needs your help... you do not need to come home and find that someone you respect has unfairly maligned your entire profession. Since I started training to teach, I've noticed how negatively the media portrays teachers, how we are supposed to be the magic solution to all society's problems and yet given none of the resources we need to help us make any headway, nor the trust to do our jobs properly.

/end rant.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
*wipes tear* Amira, you just summed up my life. It's good to know that I'm not by myself in my exhaustion, and my opinions.

And I love the phrase "student-teacher-hoop-jumping."

[ January 24, 2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
So true. They need to pay teachers more money for starters, and give them all the resources they need to really help kids.
Or, perhaps he should try it for a few weeks. I think I was thinking something like this today, before I read this, about how people who gripe about teachers should try it for about a week.
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
So teachers are being taught how to teach kids who are disabled. I hope so. Since I just found out my son may by mildly dyslexic, I am curious if all of the information out there that regular schools and teachers don't know how to teach dyslexics is a valid assumption. I am sure it is based on personal experiences but they also say that regular teachers aren't even trained how to teach dyslexic kids. But now they are?
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
I am not criticizing or anything. I am just wondering. I hope my post didn't come off as criticizing.

[ January 24, 2005, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Dazzling Kira ]
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Amka, I think the education of a teacher should be more important and involved than you are implying. I've always known that I wanted to be a teacher and had some of the same thoughts of "I have the right personality, the caring, the energy...I can totally do this! Why do I have to go to school?"

But in almoss 6 years of school (undergrad and grad), there hasn't been a day where I haven't learned something new to help me be a better teacher. I've never heard of a college education professor that hasn't taught in the public school system for at least 10 years. Most of them have taught for over 20. They've done valuable research and kept up their craft and I have a lot to learn from them.

Granted, there are a lot of hoops to jump through, but I've learned enough new stuff and my assumptions have been challenged enough for me to appreciate all the schooling that I've been required to go through.

And I think you are so right when you use the phrase "supplementing classes throughout my career." This is one of the keys to reforming the school system right now that isn't happening in very many places. Even a modern and up to date teacher needs to be taught and reminded so that he/she stays modern and up to date.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Hey Kira! Welcome to the board!

Unfortunately, your data about teachers is probably more correct than not. I think that teachers entering the workforce now, are more prepared to teach kids with disabilities...but the teachers that have been teaching for a long time? I don't know. Like I said above, it depends on a commitment to continuing education. There are some really great resources to help teach kids that have problems like your son does, but if the teacher a)doesn't know how to access them or (what is more likely) b) doesn't feel they are necessary, then the teaching goes on as it always has.

It stinks.

[ January 24, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
 

quote:

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Narnia, also about the bottom up is that there are still antiquated profs in teaching schools too. Especially in more backwater areas, like, dare I say,("dare, dare") North Carolina?

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North Carolina isn't quite as backwater as you'd like to think. A large percentage of the medical research done today is done in the Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill area (AKA, Research Triangle Park). However, having been a victim of the NC school system, I can say with confidence that OSC is likely only familiar with that system, and frankly, it is HORRIBLE!!!

The majority of my teachers were completely incapable of realizing that I was the most ill-treated person in any of the classes. I, in fact, had one teacher pull me out of class and tell me (With the door open so the class could still hear), "You're worthless." This despite the fact that I made the highest possible scores on any test they threw at me. This was one of the newest teachers at the school, about 25-30 years old.

Most of my teachers hated me because I never did homework and still wound up acing every test I had. Along with that, I was absent over 30 days out of the year, and went home early about 20 or so more days out of the year. Instead of trying to figure out what the problem was and solve it, most of my teachers chose to ridicule me along with my classmates.

This was about 13 years ago, so I'm not quite sure how things are working now, but I do know that NC has one of the worst public school systems in the country. Narnia, you're in Oregon right? The quality of schools there, I imagine, is among the highest in the country.

Since OSC is living in NC, I imagine his view is skewed quite a bit by the dismal educational conditions there.

[ January 24, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
Continuing professional development is absolutely vital - the educational and social landscape changes pretty quickly, so teachers have to be kept up to speed. Plus it doesn't hurt to keep learning more about your subject - if you don't, you stagnate.

In Britain the situation is that teachers as a whole are not specifically trained to deal with every type of special educational need out there, although we are trained to be aware of them and we do get training on SEN and disability issues during our school placements. At the moment, my classes include a large number of students with English as an Additional Language (EAL), including one who speaks literally the odd word of English and no more. I also have some students with emotional and behavioural difficulties and problems with literacy, so I'm quickly learning how to manage those under the guidance of my tutor and mentors at the school. Each school has a specialist SEN co-ordinator who IS trained to teach kids with a whole variety of special educational needs, and to train teachers on how to teach them. So, at this point I wouldn't know what the specific needs are of a student with dyslexia, but if I ended up teaching one I would know exactly where to go to find out. It does leave a lot up to the teacher in that you actually have to take the responsibility to do that and it can be very hard when you have 30+ students in every class and you only see them once a week. But it is the school's responsibility to make sure those needs are met and there are sanctions for teachers and schools who don't, as well as extra funding to make sure that all students have equal access to learning.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Boris my tounge was somewhat in my cheek about the "backwater" bit I'm living in the Chicago Area where anything south of I-88 (in otherwords 85% of the state is considered "backwater")besides even if the area isn't the education system may be...



AJ
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

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But so much of it is just plain common sense and sincere empathy with how the child is thinking.

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Common sense is tricky, and I'm not sure common sense deserves of the praise frequently lavished upon it.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Common sense isn't.

AJ
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
As for "modern" teachers being better.

My father is retiring this year after teaching middle school(private) for 44 years.

He uses worksheets.

He often lectures(or tells stories)

He can only reply to emails, he has not figured out how to compose one.

He still calls his little boom box in his class a Hi Fi.

He did, and still does, carry his yellow legal pad stuffed in the back of his pants, horrifying his students today as he horrified and embarrassed his daughter almost thirty years ago.

But you know what? He is still most kids' favorite teacher. He still has students who call him from many, many years ago. He was my teacher in eight grade, and one of the best I have ever had.

He has seen many, many teaching philosopies come and go, which is why he sticks with his own style, adding new methods where they work for him.

Putting teachers in any kind of lump category is as offensive to me as any stereotype. A teacher can learn all the theory they want, but if they don't have any personality and sense of humor, they will fall flat, and hate their job.

[ January 24, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I'm not sure if this thread makes me want to be a teacher more, or if it makes me want to change majors. I've been psyching myself up for years to be a teacher, but all I ever hear is that teaching sucks and I'm going to hate my job.

The Media needs to turn its frown upside down, maybe then more people will actually WANT to be teachers, and the system will improve.

A pay raise wouldn't hurt either
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Well, I am in college right now working toward an education degree but I haven't entered the education classes yet.

I will say, that at least in Alabama, it's harder than ever to get a teaching certificate.

Before I can even apply to the TEP (teacher education program) I have to 1) compelete 60 hours of college credit in general studies (that's what I'm doing now) 2) Have three letters of recommendation from college instructors 3) take and pass the prosepective teacher's exam 4) have 25 hours of classroom observation at the level I intend to teach and 5) go through an extensive application and interview process

Note all that has to be done before I even take the first course in education.

The teachers I know coming out of college, since all these new requirements, are phenomenal. Only once in 6 years have either of my school-age kids had a teacher I was disappointed in. And, I think it's safe to say my experience has been the younger the teacher the better the teacher. Not that people who've been doing the job for 20 years can't be excellent - many of them are, but I think that before education used to be looked at as a nothing degree - anybody can get it. Now, while the coursework may not be all that much harder than it was 10 or 20 years ago, you have to show a lot more commitment and dedication to see the process of certification through. We're getting teachers now who really WANT to be teachers.

I'm personally excited about the future of education, especially in Alabama. With the Alabama Reading Initiative, we're making great strides toward making sure every child can read on level. In fact, my experience so far talking with other teachers and looking into it have me seriously re-thinking my aim of becoming an educational librarian. I'm thinking now of getting my bachelor's certification, and then teaching in a classroom for two years, then getting into a master's program to become certified as a reading specialist. The two years of experience are a pre-requisite for that program, and I think it would be good for me to have classroom experience whether I go for the reading specialist or for the librarian certification.

[ January 24, 2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 

quote:

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He has seen many, many teaching philosopies come and go, which is why he sticks with his own style, adding new methods where they work for him.

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Elizabeth, it's the adding new methods part that is lacking in the teachers that OSC is talking about. I'm sorry if I offended you with my choice of words, it was not intended. In my mind, the good teachers are those who are willing to continually learn, revise, and stick to their guns when necessary. It sounds like your father was a great teacher.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I have the best Calculus teacher ever. He's the most enthusiastic person I've ever met when it comes to math, and I rarely have to study for tests because he just teaches the material that well. I just felt I needed to share that.

Go teachers!
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
My opinion is exactly the opposite of OSC's. In my experience, the teachers who ignored everything they learned in college were the worst. It wasn't just that they were ignoring research and whatnot; it was that the sort of teacher who ignored his or her college education was the sort of teacher who didn't really care about teaching and was just there because there was nothing else he or she was qualified to do. There are those kind in every profession--the ones who do their job for the paycheck and not for the joy of it.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I've been blessed with mostly good teachers, as far as teaching itself goes.

I only had one really bad one, a government teacher who knew almost nothing beyond what the book had.

She asked us to name laws with important economic effects passed in the 20th Century. I said, "the Clayton Anti-Trust Act."

She said, "You mean the Sherman Anti-Trust Act."

I said, "No, I mean the Clayton Anti-Trust Act. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act was passed in the 19th century."

I pretty much stopped volunteering after that.

Like I said, however, most of my teachers were very good at teaching me. She was an exception.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
Elizabeth, your father sounds amazing. I would hate to imply that older teachers aren't as good - there's one in my current department who has been teaching years and has many of the same qualities as your father. The thing about the good ones is that they never stop learning - they keep up to date with their subject, and with things that are going on in the education world generally - and that they care about their students: exactly those things that I think make a good teacher in any case.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
I'm just confused why people continue to take OSC seriously when he's not writing fiction.
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
I agree with a lot of what OSC says. Including the part about too much homework. My kid spends hours and hours on homework. I only did hours of homework in my high school AP classes and yet my 2nd grader is expected to spend the same amount of time.

I once asked one of his teachers to give us the homework on Friday so we had more time to finish it and she said no. And I have heard worse stories from other parents in other schools. What is the deal with all of the busy work they send home for homework?

(By the way I love school and teachers! I am possibly just venting a little from frustration and when OSC writes something like this it really seems to ring true for me.)
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 

quote:

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They need to pay teachers more money for starters

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quote:

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I agree with a lot of what OSC says. Including the part about too much homework. My kid spends hours and hours on homework. I only did hours of homework in my high school AP classes and yet my 2nd grader is expected to spend the same amount of time.

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Risking the inevitable de-railing of this thread, I agree with you, DK. Small children, from kindergarten upwards are being assigned rediculous amounts of homework; hours, even. Surprise, their parents have to help them with it. Homework should be near non-existant until grade four, and then be occaisional (once a week) and interesting. Before that age parents should be encouraged to read to their children and have their children read to them.

Homework should not become significant before grade seven, and not become "heavy" until grade nine, when practice work can be assigned as opposed to quick excercises and of course projects.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
There is a large age gap between Steve and his younger siblings (13 years) His mother was floored when after doing all of the same school-prep work with her daughter that she did with Steve, but her daugher was dramatically behind as far as "kindergarten readiness" goes. They were able to catch her up, but things had drastically changed. They expected the kids to be reading at far more advanced levels than they had 13 years prior, in the same school district (in Ohio)

AJ
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
But, not throwing money at it won't help.
I went to some schools where they couldn't even keep a spanish teacher for more than a few days and where my English teacher had to teach us science and my Math teacher had to teach history on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Most of the teacher's I've had were overworke and had to put up with a lot at my school.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Narnia, I don't know about the rest of Oregon, but Corvallis has amazingly good schools. Good teachers were the norm rather than the exception in my experience in high school.

By the way, what do you think about the Certificate of Initial/Advanced Mastery programs? (For the rest of you, it's an Oregon thing--students can get a CIM or CAM along with their diploma if they pass some standardized tests and submit good work samples.)
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
What bothers me about homework is when teachers(often the ones I work with-grr-) do not check with one another, and all of a sudden, there are three big tests scheduled for the same day. My own kids do not usually have this issue, as their teachers team well. I see it at our school all the time, though. What ends up happening is that I change my assignments when I see what other people are handing out. Some teams are better than others at this. (middle school teachr talking, but I remember this being a huge problem when I was in high school)
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I'm convinced the money is there, synth. It's just being taken up by needless administration and beurocracy..

[ January 24, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Liz, it's nice that you think about that. I've noticed few teachers seem to do it, although to be fair we didn't have teacher teams in middle school. In high school I hardly did homework, except in AP classes.

In college, I had all my professors give us the midterm before fall break, saying, "This will make it easier to study for all your other midterms after fall break." This happened in two different semesters.

It made for fun fall breaks, but lousy weeks leading up to it.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
My brother is in his first year teaching, and recently cut back on the homework, because he realized he was assigning too much. 8th grade english. He expects his students to read 10 pages per night, every night, which for english I think is reasonable, and cut back from an expectation of 1.5 additional hours per week to an expectation of 10 If you ahve 5 classes in 8th grade, and 5-7 hours of expected homework per week, that seems reasonable to me.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I've always thought that with homework, quality rather than quantity is important. Math and science teachers should choose several representative problems rather than assigning the whole section, for example. Of course, they should also encourage students to do extra problems for practice--it just shouldn't be required.

In English, the focus should be on understanding and enjoying a few books rather than reading a lot of books (or picking those few books to death).

At least, that's my opinion.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
A couple of quick less-than-anecdotes about the North Carolina school system.

When I was in the seventh grade, my teachers were reusing the backs of old worksheets because we didn't have the budget for paper.

One of my wife's old friends was recently hired as an elementary school teacher, despite the fact that she has never taken an education class, does not seriously intend to, and doesn't really like kids that much

When I was growing up, I had some good experiences with teachers, and a couple of really bad ones (one of whom even inspired a character in a book) which probably tainted some of my father's experience with the system. Also, while I've heard this opinion a lot from him over the years, originally, it was applied exclusively to literature and creative writing professors in college, where you can imagine he had quite a number of annoying experiences, being an anti-elist, populist type of writer, surrounded by deconstrucitonists And I have to say, I lean in his direction on that score. My creative writing teacher in high school was almost laughably unprepared to even understand a work of fiction, much less help anybody create one.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Geoff? Is that you? Has that been you all the time? *is uninformed*
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Whoa...
She was a real teacher? Terrible. I had an annoying English teacher, but she was nothing like that. She just told me I was an atheist for believing in women's equality or something liket hat. Then she gave me crap.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
SM: as someone who has studied the finanes of a comparatively well off school district in extreme detail, I can tell you that's just not true. Even with our above average pay for some administrative positions (which make sense as our school system is fairly successful academically), the total administrative costs were minor in comparison to other costs. And they were still cutting them even so by getting teachers to do double duty in some administrative positions in schools, but that wasn't working very well (wearing two hats is hard).

While our school system is fairly well respected on the whole, its not doing so well viewed holistically. The kids on the low end are being continuously left behind, largely because budget crunches have created larger classes and fewer out of class programs and field trips (one huge expenditure for school districts is transportation).
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
Narnia, yeah, it's me

Because my other name is A Rat Named Dog, Papa Moose got Mooselet to call me "Puppy". It was so cute, I made an alternate name for it. I use Puppy at work, and A Rat Named Dog at home. So if you see Puppy post at three in the morning, you can feel very sorry for me, and send condolences to my wife — it's Crunch Time at the office.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Ok, now I get it.

fugu, I'd love to hear more about what you have to say on that subject...the state budget has just baffled me. On a big fat pie chart, some people show me that our state is spending 60% of it's budget on education. And yet...how is that possible? I suppose higher education sucks out a lot of that, but that still seems like such a lot of money. I wish I could better understand where it all goes and what they do with it.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I've been wondering about that for a while. (when is Geoff which mammal)

[ January 24, 2005, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

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Frankly, I think I could do the job most of even my children's gifted teacher's do with about a year of education and some supplementing classes throughout my career (good for any career, I think) I'm in their classroom every week, and see what the teachers actually have to do. I'm not trying to downplay their job by any means. It is a very difficult and demanding job. It is one of the most important jobs in our society.

But so much of it is just plain common sense and sincere empathy with how the child is thinking. You can't get that through an education.

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I agree with a lot of what OSC says. Including the part about too much homework. My kid spends hours and hours on homework. I only did hours of homework in my high school AP classes and yet my 2nd grader is expected to spend the same amount of time.

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No, they don't. They need to pay Good Teachers more money.

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You know, Arnold is talking about something like this for California, and I'm quite against what I've heard of his proposal. I mean, merit-based pay is a good idea, but what's a good way to measure that? Consider that a teacher with a low-performing class may not be a poor teacher. Any number of other factors may be at play--home life, parent support, English proficiency, for example--all of which can be systemic problems rather than any one teacher's problem. I have yet to hear of a fair, accurate, and efficient method for "grading" teachers. And what happens if we implement a bad method? The most likely situation is that the teachers at schools in affluent, primarily English-speaking neighborhoods make more money and the teachers at the inner city schools or schools with high immigrant populations make less money. Basically we would be penalizing teachers for working with the students who need it most.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
First, things are complicated. Take a look at the graphs on this page to get an idea how hard it is to say what percentage of Indiana funds go to education -- if you count all funds, including local taxes that are filtered through the state and federally provided funds, the percentage spent on education in Indiana is around 30%.

First, as a percentage this is not particularly much. Take a look at how the population breaks down:

http://www.elderweb.com/?PageID=2545&SitePreferences=93092c76836780f871a1109929b45f29

In 2000, 22% of people in the state were under 15 and 14% were 15 to 24. Going with somewhat rough approximations of children under school age and out of college (keeping in mind that the population statistics do not include college student surpluses, which Indiana does have; that is, more people coming from outside than leaving), that's about 30% of the state in school.

Of course, percentage of the budget isn't a particularly meaningful number. It just tells us the relative amount of educational funding in respect to all the other sorts of funding in the budget, it doesn't tell us what's important in this discussion: educational funding in respect to various important metrics, such as amount needed for minimal education, amount needed for high quality education, et cetera. That's how one can determine if economic funding is warranted.

However, its important to keep in mind that those amounts per student capita will vary, sometimes significantly, from state to state. The makeup of the state will impact them in numerous ways -- for instance, a wealthier state might have less state funding due to direct donation and a larger percentage of gifted students (ones often using more expensive programs) going to private schools. Or a state might have a higher percentage of students with disabilities. Or a state might have a widely disbursed population, requiring more small schools, which is usually more expensive. Or a state might have many inner city schools, which are very expensive to operate.

Et cetera.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"However, its important to keep in mind that those amounts per student capita will vary, sometimes significantly, from state to state."

Yes, and keep this in mind as well. Within a few miles of each other, one town may devote a higher percentage of its taxes to education.

We have always thought that the taxes in Amherst were exhorbitant. I saw a write-up in the paper about how high taxes were in our town. The same, or maybe a little less than in Amherst. Yet, the amount of that which Amherst used for educataion was much, much higher than it is in our town.

For an example of this that hurts to read, read Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities. It was written quite a while ago, but the same problems are here today.

[ January 24, 2005, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Finally reading through all of this, I must say that I applaud Narnia, amiri and all the other starting teachers on this board who are still in school, or doing their student teaching. You guys rawk, and from what I've heard, I'd be happy if you came into my school to work across the hall.

That being said, your posts sound a lot like those where childless people chime in about the best methods in raising a child. In theory, there may be a lot of valid, insightful points. But it's still theory.

Many teachers I teach with say that they only started to achieve success after they threw out 80% of what they learned in their education majors. The things that they kept around (and I still think and talk about) are Gardner's Multiple Intelligences and Bloom's Taxonomy.

Beyond this, taking furthering education workshops is much like panning for gold - you have to sift through a lot of dirt to find anything of value.

The education system in this country is broken. It has been broken for a while, but only now are people starting to realize it. Why? Because for about fifteen years we stopped hiring teachers, and now the Baby-Boomers are starting to retire - and there's a shortage.

Hiring is at an all-time high, simply because there's such a need, and emergency certifications and alternate route certifications are growing in number constantly. Last I read, Arizona was operating on something like 45% emergency and alternate certs.

Yet, with all of this, the restrictions on who can teach are made more stringent. More and more classroom study and credits are required, and less and less desire and passion. Vibrant, young, caring, motivated teachers are being turned away because they had the wrong major, or because they are short a few credits here and there.

And turned away in favor of what? The hopes of finding a new hire that has had more classroom experience - and the pickings are slimmer each year. We hired 6 math teachers last year, and we will rehire for 4 of those six places again this year - with two more retiree spots to fill. It's the same in science, and we're in an affluent suburb of New York.

Education programs can be very good, or very bad, but the professors at such schools can get to their PhD's with very little actual classroom teaching experience. Many of them haven't been in the classroom in decades and rely on theory that hasn't ever been tested.

No Child Left Behind is a perfect example of this. It's a bogus theory based on cooked books in Houston, yet somehow a bunch of supposed educational experts agreed that it would be a great idea.

I wish the student teachers and education majors the best of luck in their careers, but please don't try to cling to theory when you get your own classroom.

I have loads and loads more to say on this topic, but I think I've prattled on enough at this point, so I'll stop.

[ January 24, 2005, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: FlyingCow ]
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
FC,

You are in an inner city school, as I remember?

You are so right that there is now, and will be even more so in coming years, a teacher shortage. This hits the low income areas first, so people outside of that environment are under the assumption that there are no teaching jobs.

Next year, we will lose at least ten, maybe more, of the veteran teachers at our school. Now you can stomp on "old school" teachers all you want, but they do tend to hold student bodies together.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
I wonder how much of what you're seeing (and what I'm seeing) is regional. Juliette is in her first year as a teacher, having gotten a job directly after finishing her credential work. The credential program at Cal State Long Beach is quite well populated, which you might think means that people need to compete for limited seats, but that wasn't our experience at all. And far from there being a shortage of credentialed teachers, Juliette was told at her interview that over 200 people applied for each available position in her district. I understand that the situation in other Orange County districts is much the same, as it is in San Diego and, I think, LA districts (rivka would be able to comment better on the LA districts than I). Five years ago, teachers were in high demand in Southern California, but these days the competition for jobs is pretty stiff.

I'm certainly not qualified to speak as to which teaching strategies are effective, but I do wonder at the differences between what's being taught now and what was being taught when you were getting your credential, and, even more, what the regional differences are between credential programs. From what I've heard, there are huge differences between credential programs just around California, to say nothing of comparing programs from different states. But from what I can tell, both Juliette (credentialed 1 year ago at CSU Long Beach) and her best friend (credentialed 2 years ago at CSU San Diego) are finding a lot of the theory they learned useful.

I directed her to this thread. Maybe she'll be able to comment. I hope I haven't misstated anything I've gotten from my talks with her.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Please do direct her here saxon. I want to hear more about the applications of what we're all learning in college. I know we have to sift through a lot, and that each class each year is different and therefore requires a different approach...but this makes me glad that I have more theory to draw from. When an experienced and good teacher tells me not to cling to what I learned in college and during my field experience, it's rather discouraging. I suppose that 'clinging' implies stubbornly insisting or disregarding the advice of seasoned veterans. I hope that in this sense of the word, I'm never 'clinging' to what I've learned.

But I do hope that I can use what I've learned to change things. My attitude about students, the standards, and my role in the classroom have totally changed in the last year or so. I'm getting real, on the job training as well, so I have a forum for practice and much failure. This year, for these classes, I'm throwing some things out the window, but handily remembering a lot of other things. I find that I often need to adapt what I've learned, but I'm grateful for the experience and the people who have taught me.

I find that the best thing my schooling has done is to open my mind and challenge many of my assumptions. I would like to think that it's taught me to have a better attitude and to be more aware of all the different types of students in my classroom. This has been really important for me...

I don't know, I seem to have gone off on a tangent and I'm not making any sense...so I'll stop.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"I wonder how much of what you're seeing (and what I'm seeing) is regional."

For sure, S75. But not for long, simply deue to the baby boomer numbers. I do not have hard facts, but the majority of teachers are nearing thet fiftyish teacher-retirement age.

And Narnia, for Pete's sake, suck up all the theory you can! I love it. You will use what works. Think of it like you do your vocal exercises. They will help your voice make it through the song.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
A lot of the theory we get IS good, based on my limited classroom experience. The problem is, a lot of it isn't applicable... it doesn't take into account the 1001 demands on a teacher's time, and the fact we are human. Planning your lesson so that all 24 students in your classroom understand it is well and good, but if you don't have the time to make sure they all understand the lesson because you've got 3 basic learning styles and 7 different IEP's, and you've only got 2 days to dedicate to this lesson, and you know that you're using up 1/4 of that time just trying to get your kids to pay attention... well, there's a lot of problems with education, not because the theory that we get as educators is all bad, but that its not useful in a realistic teaching environment.

The other problem is, simply, that non-educators change what educators are supposed to do in the class room before good studies can be undertaken to figure out whether the previous theories were good or not. The data we have to learn from is extremely limited, because politicians aren't willing to stick with one plan for 10 years and see how it works. "Instant fix" is the name of the game when education becomes politicized, as it has in the last 20 years or so.

I also think its important to make sure that licensure requirements are established at a fairly high level. I really don't want my kid learning biology from someone who doesn't know any real genetics, or doesn't know how to discuss the inevitable religion questions. I had a few teachers who really were awful in situations that I've covered in my education classes so far.

I've had a fair number of real learning moments in my education classes. One of my classes, the final exam was to write a "what have I learned in this class" sort of paper, and then read and respond to everyone else's paper. I think, judging from those 11 papers, most of us learned a substantial amount, and much of it will be useful in the classroom... based off of my year teaching.

On the other hand, I think that what we really need is to shuffle the process. Kids usually start their education program 2nd or 3rd year at college. What they SHOULD be doing is spending a semester working with one class, observing, helping out, and doing a week or two of lesson design and instruction. Then, they have some real experience in the class, know whether or not they want to teach...and THEN start them in the education classes, formal observation, and student teaching. Having a little bit of a view "from the other side of the chalkboard," is, I think, imperative to maximize what we learn in education classes. I KNOW that 1/2 of what I learned in mine so far, I would not have learned without having time as a teacher, prior to hearing the theory.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
One of the best programs I know of is at UMass. It is a Masters program, and quite a difficult one. The students work at Mark's Meadow School, the lab school for the university. (public school, not charter.) The students work the same schedule as the teachers, plus take their classes, and plan classes with them, leading up to their practica. They work with grades 4-6 for one term, and k-3 for the other term(or vice versa).
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 

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I KNOW that 1/2 of what I learned in mine so far, I would not have learned without having time as a teacher, prior to hearing the theory.

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You're dead on Paul. We spend our entire year teaching, taking coursework simultaneously. Just last week, one of our more vocal class members complained about where our classroom management class fell in the program. We're taking it right now, after spending a greuling first semester in the trenches. She said that she wished she had known better how to set up her classroom beforehand, etc. Our professor just smiled and said "I think this is the right time for it. I want to teach you when you're a little desperate." I had to laugh at that, and he's right. When he teaches us something, we nod, we think, we wonder how to apply it in our current classrooms, and I'm actually learning something.

My jr. college experience was also really great for this purpose. When BYU-I was a two year program, they submitted the education students to a 90 hour practicum and made them do a work sample with reflections, lessons, observations, video taping, and everything. We were all only 19 or 20, but it really was a trial by fire for those of us that were transferring to a 4 year school. I'm sure a bunch of us ended up changing focus of study, age group, or changing majors all together.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I did things backwards. I worked my first two years at a junior boarding school, grades 4-8. These kids were tough. Eek. Then, I worked for years with eotionally disturbed adolescents, teaching math and English in between restraints.

When I finally went for my Masters and teaching certificate, all the theory made so much sense, because I had situations to apply it to.

I often think we would be much better off to force(compel?) high school grads to work for a couple of years before going to college. I believe they do that in Europe, or used to, except it meant going into the service.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Cecily - I really didn't read Scott's comments as bashing teachers altogether. He starts with acknowledging that there are dedicated and good teachers out there. He definitely bashes the broken system. And frankly, I agree.

I am sick and tired of "theories" with no basis in fact determining what should happen in education today. Absolutely, all adults should continue learning - no matter their trade or profession. Whether you are learning about the latest and greatest way to change 30 hotel beds in an 8-hour shift, or the newest fave approach to helping severely autistic children succeed in a mainstreamed class, professional development is important.

The final determiner is what works. What really works. For the individual. And I think it is ludicrous to expect that one teacher is going to be able to plan, cope, and effectively teach 30 students by trying to (in effect) design 30 differnt learning strategies.

Real life says that I as the individual learn to adjust in some fashion to the world around me - the world can not and will not always conform to my individual needs. That's the reality of living in society.

The other reality is that politics and economics determine to a large extent what the "system" imposes on those individuals that are trying to do a decent job. NCLB has negatively affected so many aspects of education - my particular concern is the landslide effect into preschool education. It's frightening and sad to see how imagination and a love of learning are squashed before children even make it into kindergarten because of NCLB's expectations. (Check out Headstart requirements for kindergarten readiness if you think I'm joking . . .)

Teaching is hard work, and I am sooooo glad that there are thoughtful, dedicated folks such as yourself that are willing to choose this profession in life. My only advice is: beware the politics and the system. They are not set up to help.

For those (like me) that would rather not click on the link, here are Scott's comments. The bolded areas I added for personal emphasis - those are the parts that resonate strongly with me:

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You want to know why American schools are so lousy?

In spite of many dedicated teachers, many committed parents, and lots of money, America's educational system has gotten worse and worse over the past decades. Not because it was so wonderful to begin with, but because at few points in our history of miserable attempts to "save" our schools has the educational establishment based its decisions and actions on anything approaching sound science.

In fact, the wretched situation Michael Crichton's State of Fear describes in the scientific world has been the standard operating procedure in the world of professional education, as gurus with no science behind their silly theories make pronouncements that lead to classroom changes that only baffle children and keep them from learning.

Take the decision to stop teaching children to read using stories they might actually enjoy. Why? Somebody thought children needed "relevant" primers that were about their own lives instead of the actions of heroes; "realistic" stories instead of magical ones that wouldn't prepare them for the real world; and simplified vocabularies that did not challenge them to learn new words, but merely pounded in a few simple words through repetition.

The result? The unbearable tedium of Dick and Jane, replacing fairy tales.

There was even a longstanding theory that parents actually harmed their children if they read to them, because it interfered with the orderly teaching procedures in school. Fortunately, that myth has long since been exploded; but the shocking thing is that it was every taken seriously at all.

If you want some depressing reading that is nowhere near as entertaining as Crichton, read Diane Ravitch's Left Back: A Century of Battles over School Reform.

Ravitch's history is somewhere between popular and exhaustive. It feels repetitive only because our educational theorists keep making the same stupid and false claims, returning again and again to sentimental theories that are not borne out by any serious research.

Still, even though the book can be tough sledding, I promise you that if you read it, you will suddenly find that school board meetings and parent-teacher conferences will be a completely different experience. Because you will immediately recognize the historical roots of the idiotic things that education professionals solemnly say to you.

You will realize that every teacher your students will ever have has been required to take education courses that inculcate them with theories that do not work, and that the really good teachers tend to be good to exactly the same degree that they ignore what their education professors taught them.

You will also understand why our kids are no longer taught history, geography, or grammar in any meaningful way; why homework increases yet learning doesn't; and why the brightest students are often maddeningly bored while the least talented students are scarcely helped.

And when you realize that the historical roots of many of the most pernicious educational practices are in the theory that students from the lower classes should be trained for trades rather than college regardless of their own desires or even their abilities, you might even get angry.

We don't trust the making of laws entirely to lawyers, yet lawyers generally know something about the law. When it comes to educational policy, we keep electing school boards that leave all the important decisions up to educational professionals -- even though, with rare exceptions, they not only don't know much that's true, most of what they think they know is provably, obviously wrong.

Sadly, however, very few of you will bother to read a book as thick and dull as this one. And why won't you read it? Because you were educated in America, where the entire educational system was geared toward training you that anything that's hard to read will be utterly unrewarding and not worth the effort.

In a way, it's a great scam. The educational theorists who have victimized many generations of students and teachers have succeeded in keeping the American people ignorant enough not to see through the scam.

They give us glasses that make us blind.

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For an example of this that hurts to read, read Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities.

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entire educational system was geared toward training you that anything that's hard to read will be utterly unrewarding and not worth the effort

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I think this quote shows both the place where this argument is strongest and weakest. For quite some time (and it's lessening greatly) there was a pop-psych "kids must always feel good about themselves" BS version of self-esteem guiding a lot of pedagogy theory and practice. This was a terrible theory, not backed by research (or at least not rigorous research) and it has stood up poorly, both in practical situations and in light of challenging research. So yeah, that's one for that side.

But one of the biggest problems with reading comes not from the progressive educational agenda, but rather the...I don't know if conservative is the best word, but yeah conservative social mythology behind the efficacy of reward/punishment systems. It's not that starting in the 80s, kids no longer wanted to read challenging books. It's that, pretty much starting with the beginning of systemized schooling this country, kids (and later adults) don't want to read at all. Even among motivated readers, those books that were part of school reading are generally regarded afterwards with distaste, even when they are enjoyed by people who weren't assigned to read them.

This is a case where the entire social bent is against research. During the past 40+ years, it's been pretty solidly established that overt external punishment/reward structures lead to decreases in the quality and quantity of work (except in those cases where initial motivation is extremely low or with certain types of narcissists).

Increasing and harnessing creativity and intrinsic motivation is one of the mainstays of progressive educational theories and one of the things that our culture is almost singularly bad at preparing people for. And there's a very strong body of research showing that even doing little things towards these goals (for example, giving children a choice in what books to read) can greatly improve both children's performance in these activities and the amount of time they engage in them. But that doesn't fit the "common sense" conception that we need to force children to learn and that holding out rewards and punishments is the way to do it.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
And guess where the pay is going to . . . yep, you got it - administrative positions.

For example:

When I went to high school, the student body was 1200 with 1 principal, 1 VP, 2 secretary's, 2 counselors, and the usual assortment of teachers.

In reviewing my state's education listings, what I now find is: layer after layer of administration - at the actual school level, at the school district level, at the "educational service district" level, at the state level. Within the schools themselves, given comparable student populations, you can now find a principal and up to three vice principals, and a host of "special program" coordinators . . . and then complimentary positions at the school district, at the service district, and at the state level.


 

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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 

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I also don't believe that just anybody can be a teacher. I believe the basic ability is a gift, and learning comes into play when honing your craft. But the personality, the empathy, and the communication ability need to be there before anything else can help.

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I agree with you on this, Icarus. This is why I didn't pursue an alternate-route teaching degree, even though it would probably not be difficult to get one in my current state of residence (which is screaming for teachers right now, esp. in urban areas). Even if I did well in my course work, I'd still suck as a teacher, because I'm introverted and don't communicate well with large groups. I'm okay one-on-one, and I can "turn on" for an hour or so if I have to (like I did when I taught one class of Russian, and like I do now to lead a story time or Internet lesson or something) but I simply COULD NOT teach five to seven classes every day. I don't have that gift.
 

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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
Also, I had to read a bit of child development theory for two of my library school classes. It was interesting, but I would rather have had concrete information about what the average child can/cannot do at particular ages.

This summer, I planned a story/craft time for 3 to 5-year-olds.

The story was about a boy who draws a hedgehog that then comes to life.

For the craft, I was going to teach the kids how to draw a (very simple) hedgehog, starting with an oval and then adding a nose, eye, feet, and prickles.

It was a really awesome activity.

Except it turns out that most three-year-olds can't draw circles. The three-year-olds present at my story time were not exceptions.
Oops. That wasn't in Erikson.

[ January 25, 2005, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Yozhik,
I'd be really suprised if that was in Erikson.

I think you may mean Piaget. Erikson wouldn't really have much to say about whether or not children could draw circles at 3.

edit: Also, and this may point out one of the problems with applying theory and research in education, Piaget lists of what children can and cannot do aren't currently regarded as valid. If you were taught that they were, your teacher screwed up.

[ January 25, 2005, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
 

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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
I didn't have ANY lists, Piaget or otherwise, or any other info about what small children can and cannot do. And since most of my previous craft-time experience with little kiddos is with my nephews, both of whom are gifted, I tend to over-estimate.

[ January 25, 2005, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Oh, my bad, I totally misread what you were trying to say. In that case, you should have read Piaget, or better yet some up to date developmental research. Erikson was a great theorist, but he wasn't concerned about children's competences and he also died over 20 years ago. That information is out there, easily accessible. Is your complaint that it didn't come up in your class?

I could see how this could be a problem with your education, but I'm not sure how this is a problem with learning theory. It can be very useful, even if other information would have been more useful in some cases.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
It really does vary from kid to kid. I've found that the best activities are ones in which you give them a concept, give them some materials, and let them decide what to do with it. That way, each kid has something to be proud of, they aren't comparing theirs to yours or each other's, parents don't come in and automatically focus on one perfect project among a group of "less beautiful" ones, and the main point is having fun and using your hands while thinking and talking about a story/concept.

You know how I know this? I remembered what I liked/didn't like as a child, and applied it when I worked with kids. (It also probably helped that I began to put in at least 2 hours a day of volunteer work with groups of kids when I was 15, many of them special needs kids-- a fact that looks very good when you apply at a daycare or preschool. I have been told by more than one person who offered me a job that they would take me, with my experience and only a high school diploma, over a spanking-new education graduate most of the time, because even with student teaching, etc., they hardly ever get enough experience at focusing attention, capturing interest, and managing a group.)

Not that I want to put down education majors; the bunch we have here on Hatrack are probably among the best of the lot, and most people really do go into it wanting to do their best and get through to kids. But the system we have is so screwed up, the beaurocracy kills some of our most talented teachers right off the bat.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Shan -- and how many students were there when you went to school compared to now?

edit: I'm mainly speaking about at an individual high school.

Plus, don't forget that state systems now receive fairly significant federal funds and are required to meet fairly significant federal requirements because of that. Which equals administrators (a cost someone somehow neglected to include in the evaluation of NCLB). I do dislike a lot of the state level administration that's been added over the years, but I think you'll find that the school level administration is rarely excessive.

[ January 25, 2005, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
 

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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 

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I have yet to hear of a fair, accurate, and efficient method for "grading" teachers. And what happens if we implement a bad method? The most likely situation is that the teachers at schools in affluent, primarily English-speaking neighborhoods make more money and the teachers at the inner city schools or schools with high immigrant populations make less money. Basically we would be penalizing teachers for working with the students who need it most.

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FC,

You are in an inner city school, as I remember?

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I suppose that 'clinging' implies stubbornly insisting or disregarding the advice of seasoned veterans. I hope that in this sense of the word, I'm never 'clinging' to what I've learned.

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I worry a great deal about high school core subject area teachers whose degree is in education.

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Had Oregon a large church which taught large numbers of kids reading and basic analytical skills, as well as provided a cohesive body of people interested in community involvement, they might well outperform Utah due to the higher amount of state monies.

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Plus, there's likely a much higher rate of private school enrollment in Utah, though that's just a guess

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I just get irritated when education experts make stupid decisions based on the latest fad and parents have little say in it.

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That's reasonable. The flipside, though, is that parents don't always know what their kids need in the classroom. That doesn't mean that they never do, and I'm certainly not trying to say that you don't. It's a touchy thing. I know that when my third grade teacher told that to my mom it really made her angry. But it's sometimes true. I know that some of the parents in Juliette's class think that their kids are much higher performing than they are. One mother is convinced that her daughter reads higher than grade level, and that the only reason that she seems to be struggling with reading at school is that she's pretending.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
fugu: The level of faithfullness assumed in your theory is very sweet and optimistic.

[ January 25, 2005, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
One thing thats oftne overlooked in schooling is that parenting and community are simply so much more important to how a student does then the school. A student without the proper support will not do well in school, and if the community he is part of does not value education, the student won't value the education.

Utah probably has great schools because of a strong community commitment to education, for similar reasons that jewish communities do well.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Utah schools may be better than Oregon, but they aren't fabulous. I spent two years of high school in Texas and two years in the SLC suburbs, and the Utah school wasn't even the Texas school's league. My education in Texas was more difficult, thorough and tailored.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
My bad

Schooling can vary a lot district to district, and, in general, Utah's schools are pretty good... better then Texas for certain.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Maybe it's more of an extreme? The worst in Texas are worse than the worst in Utah, and the best in Texas is leagues ahead of the best in Utah.

I just remember being quite bummed out about the academics after the move to Utah. Excepting a couple of AP classes, high school in Utah involved a lot of finger twiddling and choral concerts.

[ January 25, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I'm not saying everyone in the church does it, either. However . . .

There are very roughly 1.5 million church members in Utah (60 to 70% of the population). The percentage of church members among people with children is likely even higher, and there are approx 720,000 children in Utah as of 2003 ( http://nccp.org/state_detail_demographic_UT.html ).

If just 60% of those are children of LDS members (almost certainly a very low estimate), that's about 432,000. Lets assume all of 10% of LDS members encourage their kids to read or place them in Church community activities which encourage them to read (I'd bet the percentage is a lot higher than 10%).

(I realize that some children are not school age children, but since we're already severely underestimating I'm okay with it).

Thats about 43,000 students who have regular practice reading. That's a huge advantage statewide in test scores.

Some of those children would have been helped in reading otherwise, yes, but I bet its unlikely all, or even most, would to anywhere the frequency involved in the sorts of activities being described here.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
The rate of activity in the church in Utah for members is about what it is for nationwide - 50%. So, take the number of members and cut it in half.

I don't know what the statistics of how many families have regular family scripture study, but there's a reason it is talked about all the time, and it isn't because it's not an issue. The things that get mentioned all the time are the things that need to be worked on.

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Why doesn't the theory work for the Bible Belt? Don't Baptists encourage their kids to read the Bible?

[ January 25, 2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I think you'll find that the answer is, in many parts, no (at least to anything like 50%).

Also, while reading of the bible may be encouraged, rejection of the establishment, particularly as regards science and modern social theory, may be encouraged to an even greater degree.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Aw, that's sweet that you think that doesn't happen in Utah too.

I had a roommate who was convinced that dinosaur bones were planted by God to test our faith.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Icarus, I know you said you weren't offended, so I'm not trying to mollify you when I say that I don't necessarily think all older teachers are bad, or that it's the new theories they're learning in school that are making the young teachers I know better teachers.

On the contrary, its' not what they're learning, but the dedication they're showing by actually getting a teaching certificate. It's all the new rules in place, all the new hoops to jump through - which, I believe, are weeding out anyone who would major in education because "Well, it's an easy degree to get and the hours should be good. I guess I'll be a teacher."

And, in Alabama, you cannot teach at a secondary level without majoring in your course of study - you can't teach high school math without majoring in math, and double majoring in education.

In fact, I checked at the four year school where I'm transferring for my degree, and the math requirements to get a secondary certificate in math are pretty steep, in my view. It would scare me away.

First they take the same maths as an elementary school teacher would - same as me. That means college algebra, college algebra II with Trig, and two higher maths, which in my case I'm taking calculus 1&2.

After that, they take Calculus 1&2 if they didn't already take it, Basic Statistics, and Calculus 3. Then the junior level work which includes the class Intro to Advanced Mathemetics, Linear Algebra, Differential equations, college geometry, and something called Combinatorics Then a senior level Survey of Geometries, and some electives at the 300 level or up.

That's the math requirement. For the teaching certificate they also have to take 25 semester hours of teaching field classes, most of which have practicum requirements where they must teach in the high school tutoring program on campus, and then of course they must take the last semester student teaching internship.

Will this mean that anyone who graduates this program and gets a teaching certificate is automatically better than any current math teacher like yourself? Of course not, but it does mean that whoever goes through all this wants to be a math teacher. And that's a step in the right direction, don't you think?
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

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I think you'll find that the answer is, in many parts, no (at least to anything like 50%).

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Do Bible Belt schools show better education per dollar spent?

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How do you define better education? And dollars spent?

We can slice up the numbers any way you choose and compare schools based on what they spend on teachers' salaries, or what they spend on curriculum, or what they serve for lunch. We can compare test scores or dropout rates or college admission rates to see who has the "best" education out there. That's part of the problem - how do you determine what schools are working and what ones aren't?
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Elizabeth,

I've seen that too But I think that is probably a different kind. During a field trip I once got the chance to talk to a teacher who confided that the problem kids (in a gifted class that, by nature, requires parents actively concerned for their children's education) were the ones with the parents who were always nosing around and complaining to the teacher about what was going on, but never actually coming into the classroom to do volunteer work.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
I went to Davis High, in Farmington, north of Bountiful. It was great for the state.

This was my Texas high school, though. I suspect the numbers like this:

code:

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Ranking: Exemplary

Grade Reading/Eng./L.Arts Math    Science All Tests  So.Studies 
9        97.9%            86.3%           85.4%   
10      91.5%             90.0%   91.9%   83.0%    96.9% 
11       82.2%            89.2%    91.2%  74.5%   98.2% 

Average Attendance: 96.5%; Average Student/Teacher Ratio: 15.7:1

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American Indian-0.2%;
Asian-3.4%;
African Am.-2.4%;
Hispanic-7.4%;
White-86.6%

Economically Disadvantaged: 2.3%

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For one thing, the LDS church is, in large part, the establishment.

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The church runs the schools? It's not the monolith you imagine. Where are you pulling this out of?

Active means attending sacrament meeting at least once a month.

[ January 25, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
As that's pretty much been exactly my point, thank you Belle .
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Glad I could help.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"problem kids (in a gifted class that, by nature, requires parents actively concerned for their children's education) were the ones with the parents who were always nosing around"

It is not really the nosing around that bothers me, it is the assumption that their child is the only child on this here earth.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
LJ: In Utah, the Church is a large part of the social structure, and more generally the sociopolitical power base (aka the establishment).

I suggest you start taking my statements more literally rather than interpreting them, then you would not misunderstand them so much as you have in this thread and others.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I find that the parents who complain about me without having spoken to me first--or verified the truth of their children's stories--are the parents of the same kids who don't take advantage of all the opportunities I offer, like extra help, and who don't listen in class.

But enough about how my day is going.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
How about their assumption that "my little Johnny couldn't possibly be starting fights"?
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Ah, Icarus, thank you for making me feel OK about being out sick, because it's grade time.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 

quote:

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America's educational system has gotten worse and worse over the past decades.

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It feels repetitive only because our educational theorists keep making the same stupid and false claims, returning again and again to sentimental theories that are not borne out by any serious research.

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When it comes to educational policy, we keep electing school boards that leave all the important decisions up to educational professionals

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In a way, it's a great scam. The educational theorists who have victimized many generations of students and teachers have succeeded in keeping the American people ignorant enough not to see through the scam.

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despite the fact that we graduate more of EVERY SEGMENT of our population through bachelor's degrees than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

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• Incompetent teachers who, in a private school, would be writing their resumes and standing in line at unemployment. My son's second grade teacher who spent most of the year teaching art and taking the kids on field trips. Every Friday almost without fail. I went on a lot of those trips. He ended the school year knowing almost no math, and was unable to add reliably. After a summer with home school curriculum, he caught up. It wasn't inability -- it was poor teaching.
• Text books that cost an arm and a leg, yet are so glutted with glitzy, slick graphics and barely related trivia that the subject matter is lost. I borrowed several of my son's text books after the adventures we had with 2nd grade. The amount of concentration it took to filter out the garbage could have been better applied to learning with simpler books that presented the material in black and white, at a fraction of the cost.
• Totally subjective report card grading criteria. I encountered this at *every* school. While this might be fine in Kindergarten or 1st Grade, it is counterproductive and *STUPID* with 2nd grade on. His last year in public school was 4th grade. They were still graded on the report card with Check+ (Above grade level), Check (at grade level), Check- (below grade level). No letter grades, no way to tell how they reached that grade, because most of the papers were also subjectively graded. This is understandable with creative projects, but with a math or spelling paper, it's either right or wrong. No in between. I didn't realize how stupid this was until we moved to private school, where it is very easy to determine what the grade is without asking the teacher. You look at the assignments (which are sent home after grading), add up the numbers, divide by the number of assignments and get the grade. Very easy, very objective and clear. The child knows where he stands, what his mistakes were, and what his successes are.

quote:

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quote:
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For one thing, the LDS church is, in large part, the establishment.
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The church runs the schools? It's not the monolith you imagine.

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Lets assume all of 10% of LDS members encourage their kids to read or place them in Church community activities which encourage them to read (I'd bet the percentage is a lot higher than 10%).

(I realize that some children are not school age children, but since we're already severely underestimating I'm okay with it).

Thats about 43,000 students who have regular practice reading. That's a huge advantage statewide in test scores.

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quote:

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there's simply a greater emphasis in the Mormon community on learning and secular success in general, which _is_ stressed in the religion.

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Yup--even homemakers are expected to have college degrees.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
*nods* that is quite possibly also very important, though I don't think either effect necessarily outclasses the other to a great degree. The lack of reading (and more importantly, the lac of critical thinking such as that promoted by the analytical study of scripture, which its my understanding that LDS classes for kids touch on at least in small degree) is an amazing hindrance to further learning, it being a foundation upon which so much more is built.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

quote:

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Text books that cost an arm and a leg, yet are so glutted with glitzy, slick graphics and barely related trivia that the subject matter is lost. I borrowed several of my son's text books after the adventures we had with 2nd grade. The amount of concentration it took to filter out the garbage could have been better applied to learning with simpler books that presented the material in black and white, at a fraction of the cost.

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Now this is the same as my experience too. I find the textbooks to be long on sharp looking graphic layouts and short on content.

In fact, my daughter's teachers this year (she only has two, in sixth grade they have one teacher for language arts and social studies, and another for math and science) both seem to teach a lot without the books. I see her bringing home handouts the teacher's printed up themselves, and working off that.

I have been extremely disappointed with the textbooks, and tried to do something about it by bringing it up at the PTO meeting and volunteering for one of the parents' slots on the textbook committee. Didn't get it, though.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
*nods*

Textbooks are one of the most annoying problems in schools today, and most of that's due to how states pick the list of textbooks that school systems can then pick from. Basically, the textbook companies bribe the state committee members to vote for their textbooks. I've seen textbooks be chosen that don't even exist to be evaluated, yet -- but the manufacturer gave the committee a very nice banquet.

A lot of the problem arises from the people (often rightly) not feeling qualified to decide which textbooks cover the material best. General committee's just a really rotten way to choose textbooks.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"I have been extremely disappointed with the textbooks,"

I hate our math textbook. The kids aren't supposed to learn billions until the secon or third chapter. In the first chapter, on data and graphing, they have to read graphs and answer questions about them in -da da- billions. Duh.
The problems throughout the book are so large-number-heavy, and the language used so obscure, that many kids lose the concepts.
So, I make my own stuff or get things in other books or on the Internet.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Hey fugu - not ignoring you - just got in from work, child's swim lessons, homework, and dinner - I'll grab the handy little directory from the office tomorrow and see if they have a website, otherwise I'll just post their contact information and wax philosophical on a couple of examples -
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
A simple algebraic perspective on the problem should leave you, the asspiring student, with a firm grasp on the Euclidian viewpoint of a multi-dimensional analysis of non-first order equations and their growth rates.

=

Things with exponents get big really fast, look at this graph!

Kind of like that Liz?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Just a couple of things.

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Will this mean that anyone who graduates this program and gets a teaching certificate is automatically better than any current math teacher like yourself? Of course not, but it does mean that whoever goes through all this wants to be a math teacher.

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Who makes the "No child left behind" policies? Politicians. Certainly not educators.

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Thing is, NCLB wasn't conjured from thin air. There were educational experts who are theorists in the field that were consulted and brought in to back the bill, to emphasize how valid it is, and to show that it will work.

Was Gardner one of those? Of course not, because Multiple Intelligences and NCLB are totally at odds with oen another. The politicians may have picked which educators they used as backup, but that doesn't mean there aren't theorists out there spouting nonsense. After all, Rod Paige was once a teacher, and principal, and superintendent.

The truth is, our schools are in trouble. We are losing teachers at a greater rate than we are gaining them, and there's a continental-shelf-like dropoff coming in the next decade. A *large* percentage of the current teacher population already has 25 years in, and can retire at any time. Most veteran teachers don't teach past 35 years.

Further, restrictions and bureaucratic hoops are making it harder than ever to a) become and b) stay a teacher. There is a great attrition rate among young teachers, certainly in the 5th through 9th grade levels, and in math and science.

So, with a large retirement group exiting, and high hurdles for new teachers, we are looking squarely in the face of a severe teacher shortage within the next decade.

Fewer teachers means the job becomes more difficult for those with rapidly increasing class sizes, which means a higher attrition rate, which means even fewer teachers.

Has the quality of education decreased in the past several decades? That's debatable. Is it in danger of decreasing dramatically in the next decade or two? Most certainly.

And all the measures I've seen to improve the situation in recent years have only made it worse.
 

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Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
 
Katie

May I just point out a few of the extra-curricular activities at Kingwood High
(as you mock them with me)

The Fillies (hehe)
Mustang Community Commitment
APBA Fantasy Baseball
DDR club
Equestrian Club
Fillies (hehe)
Inkslingers
Kingwood Conservative Club
Kingwood Songwriters Club
Meritless Humor Society Home
National Latin Honor Society
Rock Climbing Club
Slammin Club
Surfing Society
Teenage Republican Club
Texas Two Step Club
Tri-cycling Club Home
Trivial Pursuit Club/Games
Wakeboarding
Young Filmmakers Society

A school without wakeboarding and horses would surely seem like a let down.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Is Kingwood, TX anywhere near the ocean?
 

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Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
 
70 miles from the Gulf of Mexico
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Hobbes: Yes, sort of like that, ha ha.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

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A lot of people who *want* to be math teachers can't because of the restrictions - not because they don't have the desire or motivation, just that it's not always possible to spend the time and money going back to school *before* you can get a job teaching. Just what do you do in the interim?

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Not everyone decides teaching is their calling as freshmen or sophomores in college.

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And I didn't decide teaching was my calling until I was over 30 and already had a family. And it's taking tremendous sacrifices on our part to send me to school - not just in terms of money but in terms of time too, when you have four kids involved in schools and/or activities, trying to add in studying time and class time means somewhere, somehow, you're going to miss out on something.

Thing is, if it's a calling, it takes sacrifice and dedication. I don't think it helps the education system to make it easier for people to teach, I think we need to make sure that those that are truly dedicated and want to do it are qualified to do it. I don't want someone with no educational experience or training teaching my kids, I don't care how well they know math.

There are programs out there to help people who decide to go into teaching after having another degree - I know there is one set up for military in particular.

I glanced quickly at the requirements at JSU for adding on a teaching certificate after completing a degree in a different field, and it's 44 semester hours at the graduate level for a secondary certificate, so anybody with a degree in math would have to complete the 44 hours (which includes the student teaching requirements) to be certified as a high school math teacher.

Edit: darn typing too fast syndrome

[ January 26, 2005, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Belle ]
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Heh. I apologize for slandering Utah's educational system, and I accept that my high school experience was not typical for Texas, as I had thought that it was.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 

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I don't want someone with no educational experience or training teaching my kids, I don't care how well they know math.

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Thing is, if it's a calling, it takes sacrifice and dedication. I don't think it helps the education system to make it easier for people to teach, I think we need to make sure that those that are truly dedicated and want to do it are qualified to do it.

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To go "alternate route" which is becoming more and more popular, they don't care if you've had *any* education classes. They do care that you've taken a certain level of coursework in a subject field, however.

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Now, I understand that you have to show a requisite amount of knowledge to teach a course, but course credit is not an accurate gauge of either subject matter knowledge, understanding, or ability to teach that information effectively.

You could have gotten D's throughout college math, having retaken classes over and over to barely scrape by with 30 credits - and be considered far more qualified than someone who took 18 credits and aced everything.

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If you blow the test out of the water, but are short credits, shouldn't that mean something?

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Student teaching is one semester

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I think we need to make sure that those that are truly dedicated and want to do it are qualified to do it. I don't want someone with no educational experience or training teaching my kids, I don't care how well they know math.

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Well, in public schools, you're much more likely to have the opposite of this: someone teaching math with a four-year education degree, BUT NO BACKGROUND IN MATH. My sister taught in Maryland; during her first year of teaching, she was supposed to teach a semester of algebra. She's a music teacher. She hadn't studied algebra since high school.

My alternate-route-teacher friend has a master's plus in biology. He had some experience teaching undergraduates, and a gift for teaching in general. He had to take two semesters of courses to get a state certification--the second semester was completed after he got a teaching job in a juvenile detention center. He has a talent for working with kids, troubled or otherwise. Now, a few years later, he teaches AP, 9th grade, and 8th grade science in a private college prep school, and is doing quite well. He didn't NEED a multiple-year education degree.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
How much do doctors get during their residency? They must get paid...but I don't remember if I got billed the same for seeing a resident instead of our regular doctor. (I guess it didn't matter in the end because the resident had to call in two other doctors to consult.) But then there was the time I was in a teaching hospital and I'm pretty sure they didn't bill my insurance for the fleet of nurses that were in to observe.

Who pays? And how much should they for on-the-job learning?
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I never did student teaching. I parlayed Sunday School teaching experience into jobs tutoring at a tutoring center and teaching test prep classes, and those into paid teaching jobs. Student teachers are slave labor. They put in insane hours, teaching much or all of the day and then going to classes, and they pay for the privilege.

I did have a couple of internships, one as a programmer/researcher and one as a researcher, and both were paid. They paid quite well, for a college student, in fact.

As far as the student teaching requirement, most if not all districts will wave it if you have equivalent "real" experience.

-o-

Belle, just to clarify, when I said I wasn't offended, I was referring to OSC: I'm not offended by his column. I'm not offended by anything else here either, btw, but I wanted to clarify that point, lest somebody think I was protesting too much.
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
In the UK student teachers get free tuition (but then we have very low tuition fees anyway) and an £6,000 per year training bursary. As a postgrad education course (PGCE) is usually full time, that's basically what you live on. You are on the course for 180 working days, of which you spend 120 in school observing or teaching. So most of the training year is spent in school, learning on the job. You are expected to have an undergraduate degree in the subject you are training to teach at secondary level (though there are exceptions - my degree was in philosophy and politics and I'm training to teach religious studies). I don't know how undergraduate degrees in education that lead to qualified teacher status work, but that's how the PGCE works. On my course, we were at uni full time for four weeks, doing subject knowledge extension and some basic bits of theory (the status of RE in the national curriculum, lesson planning, inclusion and differentiation - all either context or practical stuff, really). Then we were at school 4 days a week till Christmas, with a day at uni every week where we had further subject knowledge extension or training on practical issues (not that much explicit pedagogy - more stuff like learning styles, effective teaching of older students for examination courses, classroom management) and the tutor who ran those sessions was herself a very effective teacher, so we got a huge amount out of it by seeing first-hand how the strategies she recommended worked. Now we're in school 5 days a week, expected to teach a 40% timetable and on top of that we have various tasks, essays and so on set by our professional studies mentor and the university. I can't say I've learned a huge amount of educational theory - it really has been focused on what works in the classroom. I guess it must be different in the US, though, from what people are saying...?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I will explain my slaver....ahem my student teaching when I have more time this afternoon. It was really interesting to read about Icarus and amira's experiences, so I'll have to throw mine into the pot.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 

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Glenn, I think it goes even deeper than that. My paranoia meter says that NCLB is out to destroy public education and redistribute the funds.

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Thing is, NCLB wasn't conjured from thin air. There were educational experts who are theorists in the field that were consulted and brought in to back the bill, to emphasize how valid it is, and to show that it will work.

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So, Glenn, how many kids have you sent through public school? And how many public schools have you had personal experience with as a parent?

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Well, in public schools, you're much more likely to have the opposite of this: someone teaching math with a four-year education degree, BUT NO BACKGROUND IN MATH. My sister taught in Maryland; during her first year of teaching, she was supposed to teach a semester of algebra. She's a music teacher. She hadn't studied algebra since high school.

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I understand what you're saying. I know that in the past this has been the case. What I'm trying to point it is that it no longer is, at least not in my state.

For new teachers, the requirements are that you have a major in your field of study, plus the education requirements to get a secondary teaching certificate in that subject. I know that it's been enforced, by tallking to my kids' teachers - case in point my daughter's gifted education teacher has discovered that she can no longer teach the middle school gifted classes, and had to stop this year - because she doesn't have the appropriate certificate.

Principals can get exceptions for people who aren't qualified for that subject so long as no other qualified person applied for the position. That's what is happening with the school library programs - many of them are using teachers who don't have the library certificate because there aren't enough people out there who have it. Alabama is ranked 50th out of 51 states (DC included) for ratio of students to qualified librarians.

In other words, a new librarian with the proper certificate and no experience must be hired over an experienced teacher without the certificate. Now, this can be a good thing or a bad thing. For me, since I plan to graduate certified in my field of choice it's good. I can get a job just about anywhere, but in doing so I may displace a teacher that's been there for years. Of course, that teacher has the opportunity to add-on the proper certificate, if he/she chooses.

The school librarian position is in desperate short supply in Alabama. My friend works as a reading specialist in a school district and in their eight schools, not one has a qualified librarian. I hope in four years, they'll have at least one.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Thank you, Glenn.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 

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You must have a 2.5 in all coursework attempted, and a minimum of 3.0 in your graduate work.

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True, and my comment you are responding to (about NCLB not being written by educators) is the weakest argument of the 4 I listed

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Reports of "Students that can't read" in our High Schools is an indicator that we keep failing students in the system longer than we used to, rather than encouraging them to drop out and find a job, as was standard practice in the 1950's.

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A 10th grader that can't read is a failure of the system. Would that student have been encouraged to drop out years ago? Possibly. But should that student have passed 9th grade? No.

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ALTERNATIVE FIFTH-YEAR PROGRAM
MASTER OF SCIENCE IN EDUCATION
MAJOR: SECONDARY EDUCATION
TEACHING FIELD: MATHEMATICS (6-12)

Basic Requirements (26-29 semester hours):

EFD 500 Research in Education (3)
EFD 515 Seminar in Schools and Learning (2)
EFD 560 Psychological Principles of Learning (3)
EIM 410G The Information Age Classroom (2)
EPY 429G Developmental Psychology (Lab Required) (2)
EPY 442G Educational Measurement (2)
ESE 404G Effective Teaching in the Secondary Schools (2)
(Corequisite: ESE 484G)
(Prerequisite: EPY 429G and lab)
ESE 420G Teaching Mathematics (2)
ESE 484G Secondary Practicum (2)
(Corequisite: ESE 404G)
ESE 567 Improvement of Reading in Secondary Schools (2)
ESE 580 Internship in Secondary Education (4)
(offered Fall and Spring during public school hours)
(Prerequisites: Completion of SPE 500 and all
coursework listed above).

*SPE 500 Survey Course in Special Education (3)

Students who have not previously satisfied the special education requirement at the undergraduate or graduate level must take SPE 500 and have no electives.

Teaching Field Requirement (15 semester hours):

By faculty advisement, select 15 graduate semester hours in mathematics courses. At least half of the 15 semester hours selected must be numbered at the 500 level. A student may transfer no more than three semester hours in the teaching field. This major requires a minimum GPA of 3.0 in the course work in the teaching field. Transfer credit cannot
be used to raise the GPA in this teaching field course work to the required 3.0.

*Electives: 0 or 3 semester hours:
By faculty advisement, 3 graduate semester hours of electives must be selected from courses numbered at the 400G or 500 levels.

44 Semester Hours Required for this Degree

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A 10th grader that can't read is probably dyslexic, or has some other form of learning disability.

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And if the child is in 10th grade with undiagnosed dyslexia, or some other cognitive impairment, that is still a failure of the system.

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True, provided it's undiagnosed. As I mentioned, the girl I've been working with has an IEP. I don't have access to it, and I'm probably not supposed to know she has it, but it's one of those things that everyone knows anyway.

So I don't know what the school is doing to deal with her reading problems, or what the diagnosis is.

The other issue here is that some parents pull strings to *GET* their kids classified, in order to get extra help, yet other parents are scared to death of "labeling" their kids, so they don't get help. It's not an issue of diagnosis, it's an issue of classification, and you have to get the parents permission to do that.
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
* is slightly amused (in a sad way) for discovering teachers have a tough time of it everywhere, as it seems.

Hehe...I almost wrote a big post about what it takes to become a teacher in Brazil, and some peculiarities of brazilian school system, but you guys wouldn't be interested in it, probably.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Eduardo I think it would be fascinating to hear the requirements in your country. Go for it!

AJ
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
How can parents pull strings to get their kid classified as learning disabled? To me it seems that not enough kids are classified that should be.

My husband is dyslexic and they never diagnosed or classified him and he ended up barely graduating high school at a 4th grade reading level. If he had been classified he would have done a lot better in school and college.

My son's teacher just told me yesterday that if teachers start refering all of the kids that should be tested in their class they get pressure from "higher up" to stop and they are told they are not doing their job and refering "too many" children to be tested for special ed. Too many???? Either the kid has a learning disability or they don't. It may vary in severity but that doesn't mean the mild cases don't need help.

If a parent has to "pull strings" to get their kid tested, it is probably because the school system doesn't have the right system in place to identify them. (I may be ranting a little here from the conversation I had with my son's teacher.)

[ January 28, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Dazzling Kira ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

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If a parent has to "pull strings" to get their kid tested, it is probably because the school system doesn't have the right system in place to identify them.

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Or there's parents like me, who have children that do need help, but because they're not learning disabled or hindered enough don't qualify for assistance.

Sad thing is, my insurance won't pay for the needed occupational therapy beyond a token few visits, because, in their words "That's a service that is provided free by the schools."

Umm, only if you qualify for it.
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
I have a feeling thay my kid isn't learning disabled enough to receive help either. Maybe that is why the system isn't so good. So, how do I "pull strings"?
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
I'm not going to tell anyone how to get their kid classified just to get additional services. That's why administrators start to crack down on referrals.

But you can take your kid to a pediatric neurologist and have him/her *Diagnosed* with a learning disability, and you're pretty much guaranteed they'll get classified. A psychiatrist can also *Diagnose* a kid with a disability.

BTW, a pediatrician can prescribe ritalin, without an official diagnosis of ADD, but a pediatrician has no business diagnosing a kid with ADD. That needs to be a neurological diagnosis. Don't get your kid ritalin unless you've actually got the diagnosis, or you're no better than a drug dealer.
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
There must not be any strings to be pulled. Any help at all to anyone is good in my opinion even if they don't "qualify". There just isn't enough money or some other reason.

I am going through the normal channels though to get help. I am not trying to cheat or use resources that are meant for others. I assume that most parents are trying to get services that will genuinely help their children succeed when the normal system won't help their children.

If the system decides not to help my dyslexic kid then I will probably assume the system is bad and I will tutor him at home every day.
 

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Posted by Dazzling Kira (Member # 7281) on :
 
After all the system failed once already in our family with my husband. He would have had a much more successful life if he had been able to read and write. He is only mildly dyslexic so he never qualified for help.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

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But you can take your kid to a pediatric neurologist and have him/her *Diagnosed* with a learning disability, and you're pretty much guaranteed they'll get classified. A psychiatrist can also *Diagnose* a kid with a disability.

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In my case my son doesn't have a learning disability, he has a physical problem - that isn't severe enough to be classified as a physical disability and no amount of diagnosis can change the fact that under the Federal IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) occupational therapy is not a covered service. It's only an add-on service, so you have to qualify in some other area first in order to get OT. And my son doesn't.

It's very frustrating, because his lack of fine motor control will definitely cause him problems in school (he cannot properly grip a pencil, for example) but the school says they can't help him. I have to pay for the OT myself, which I just plain can't afford.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Kira, as a parent, I think you just need to insist that he be tested. They don't like to screen for learning disabilities till second grade (I think, or 8 years old.) From the way they explained it to me, the test was designed for at least a second grader, and if they test too early and the child doesn't qualify, they have to wait three years before they can test again.

Then again, nearly everything the school district told me was a big ol' bunch of lies, so. . .

When I read what you wrote about home work on the front page, I had to laugh. I think some of the busy work is just to show the parents that they are really teaching their kids. In our last district, I had a problem with a 10 year old or less spending 3-4 hours a night on homework, too. I finally got to the point that I told him I didn't care what his grades were. I would look at the homework he had at night and I would decide what he had to do and what he could skip. I didn't care about his grades, and he just needed to show me that he was trying his hardest. It was great. And at the IEP meeting, I told them that was what I was going to do. I'd decide what homework was important and which was silly busy work. (This was after years of being polite and seeing my son fall farther and farther behind.

Eventually, I pulled him out of school for three quarters and caught him up two grades. We then entered him into a different district (which had to test him for placement ) which is how I know how far he caught up. They were really surprised that he'd been home schooled for three quarters and what a difference it had made in his scores.

This new school, (he's in 8th grade and has been in this district two years) is great. I've been worried about a complete lack of homework, but I listen to him talk about school and all the fun things he's learned during the day, so I know he's learning and I've decided to stop stressing out about it. He's enjoying school for the first time in his life. He's got a B average and I'm just going to leave well enough alone. He'll never be a rocket scientist, but that's okay, because he doesn't want to be a rocket scientist. He finally learning and enjoying it. It took a decade of blood sweat and tears, but he's finally talking about fun stuff he learned at school.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Belle, you might want to look into a 504 accomodation plan. This is also a legal and binding agreement between you and the school, but it does not fall under IDEA.

For instance, one of my students had a slight hearing impairment in his left ear, and he had a 504 plan put into place so that he would always be seated on the left side of the classroom - so that his good ear would be toward the teacher and class. I have seen other 504 plans for students who have difficulty seeing the board, which require them to be seated in the front row. Also others that focus on socialization problems, with accomodations that aid the student when dealing with cooperative learning environments.

Kira, mildly dyslexic should damn well have qualified for help. I have a student who is mildly dyslexic right now. She had my mother eight years ago in the first grade. During that time, she was an average student who had some difficulty reading, but the consistency she showed with her difficulty led my mother to recommend her for testing. At the end of the year, she was diagnosed with mild dyslexia, and her mother (bless her!) chose to have her daughter repeat the first grade, but in a different school in the district.

The second time through, she got the help she needed and the accomodated instruction, and she achieved far greater success and confidence. Now, she is one of my star students and has learned seven years worth of coping mechanisms and strageties - at this point, her IEP only has a provision for extended time on tests, which she never even uses. A true success story of special education.

Glenn, the problem of parent permission has been a problem. As has been the reluctancy of the administration to classify students. Generally, minority parents are more resistant to special ed classification because of the stigma they feel it carries (though in my school, at least, no one seems to notice or care whether one student receives some extra time or extra attention from an in class support teacher). White parents are far more apt to have their child tested and classified, so that they can receive special services that will help their child succeed.

As for schools' willingness to test, the law is very clear on one point - if a child needs an accomodation, you *will* pay for it no matter what it costs. Money cannot be discussed in a court of law when it comes to special ed accomodations, and an IEP is a legally binding document. Because of this, schools are reluctant to test students - simply because of the costs involved.

On top of this, many young black male students are misclassified (or misreferred) as ADHD, ADD, Emotional Disturbed, etc... when they are none of those things. Teachers in younger grades are quick to label a disruptive child, when their disruptive behavior may stem instead from conditions in the home. In my district, they *strongly* discourage us from referring black male students, because that demographic is already disproportionately represented.

It's difficult all around.

Personally, I'd love for *Every* student to be tested in 1st and again in 4th grade. If every child had an IEP accomodations sheet, my life would be 100 times easier. Rather than my trying to decipher each individual student's learning patterns, there would be a reference sheet of the modifications that student needs to succeed.

Even now, if one student's IEP calls for a visual aid as a companion to a lesson, I make sure that every student has one - it's a good idea, anyway. If another requires a study guide to be provided for each test, I offer that to all my students.

In my view, IEPs make the job easier by taking out some of the guesswork and experimentation. In others' view, they make the job harder by forcing the teacher to adapt their teaching style.

It's those teachers we need to worry about.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Sigh. I guess it all comes down to round holes and square pegs. It would be nice if the system was perfect.

The best we can do is try.

The point on the 504's is a good one. I'm just learning the difference now.

And as to testing, current theory is aiming at about 3 to 4 years old, not first grade, if you really want to nip these things in the bud. Some schools are trying to do this, but really it's before they have access to the kids (I'm trying to remember the term: "Child find" (?) or something.

That's part of why I direct you to medical professionals, not educators. What the school may not be capable of, your medical insurance may do, especially with regard to providing a diagnosis, even if not a treatment. With that ammunition, the school should have to write the IEP. (And if you have the diagnosis before first grade, the school system may still be responsible for providing services)
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
We brought our son in when he was 2 1/2 and they said he needed intervention, but they couldn't provide it till he was three. We took him to a speech lab at KU and they worked with him for a while, then the school took over when he was three. They stopped when he reached some ridiculous percentile. (I think one of them was 18th percentile, "which isn't good, but we can't provide services once they hit that benchmark.")

I seriously hope things are better nowadays. Like I said, my son is 14, and theoretically, we had him in the best school in the state, maybe the country, for autism. (Seriously, people move here from all over the country because of this program.) He was diagnosed and the school would write up IEPs and then do nothing with them. At the last IEP meeting we had, when I pulled him out of school, out of 9 teachers he had, only 2 knew he had an IEP, and one of them was his current "home room" teacher and the other was his previous year's "home room" teacher.

This was also the same meeting where they told us they thought his social skills needed to be addressed. You mean like we talk about every year and is written into the IEP?!?

God, I hated those people.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Just so parents know, there are usually meetings before the IEP meetings. I would just love it if a with-it parent, or their educational advocate, came right out and said, "OK, which services have you decided to provide for my child? Can we just cut to the chase?"

I have also seen people bullied, big time. (usually by the sp. ed. director, not the teachers)

On the other hand, I have seen the special ed. teachers bring a parent around to accept their child's special needs and to make them realize that it is not a bad thing that they need extra help.

[ January 29, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Well, at our meeting, the speech therapist kept trying to hint around that he wasn't going to be qualified until I finally just came out and said "You're not telling me anything I dont already know."

I knew he wouldn't qualify in speech and he didn't even come close, he actually is above average in oral communication. He just can't write, because he physically has trouble holding a pencil.

I'll look into the 504 thing and see what happens.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
I just read the first post, so I don't know what else has been said since then. But I had to put in my 2 cents on the first post:

I am currently a high school senior. I have been in the current public school system for the last 13 years. In my experience the best teachers were not ones who did things by the book, they were not education majors, they were majors in the subject they taught and they taught their own styles. It held true from elementary school on up pretty much. Those who are education majors often had condecending attitudes that drove me nuts, and dumb projects that I equated only with busy work and learned nothing from. Now this data is most definately biased, beucase I have only a small sampling of teachers and whether or not I knew they were education majors was based on whether or not they told me. But to me, education major has come to be equated with bad, boring teacher. I don't know anything about you as a teacher Narnia, this is just from my personal experience.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
Kayla, the IEP is a legally binding document. If the school fails to make the accommodations stipulated, they can be taken to court and *forced* to make those accommodations. The law is very clear on the matter.

If something is written, it must be done - no matter what the cost of inconvenience. There was a recent lawsuit where a teacher refused to accomodate a student with an IEP, and that teacher was fined $15,000. The school and teacher are legally bound by that document, and if they do not comply, you should file for due process to start legal action.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Yeah, but see, my problem is that I'm weird and my mother-in-law kept telling me and my husband not to be the "problem parents."

I should have been a bigger bitch about it all, but I played nice until I decided to take my ball and go home.

Anyway, he's doing well now.

But, all of his early IEPs they kept insisting on educational things and I had to really fight them just to get in that he could have extra time to buy a cookie at lunch because he had a tendency to barf if he didn't eat enough. And he'd lost weight and could stand the extra calories. But they had some weird policy about not selling the kids food after a certain time. And by the time he finished his lunch, it was too late for him to decide if he was hungry enough to buy a cookie.

I was very concerned about social interaction, and they kept telling me how nice and polite he was and how everyone liked him. And he'd come home and tell me about the games he played with kids at school. It wasn't until 4th or 5th grade that I found out he was sitting alone under a tree by himself and playing those games with his friends in his head.

Ooh, I still hate teachers. I hated them when I was a kid and I hate them as a parent.

Not you, of course, but the teachers that did that to my son. It still pisses me off.

In third grade we did have social interventions in the IEP. It all sounded nice in the IEP, but it boiled down to taking all the weird kids and having a weekly "lunch bunch" group. Unfortunately, the teacher leading it got cancer and they met all of 3 times.

I'm just going to stop now before I get mad all over again.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Fugu - you asked for some information last month. My apologies for the delay in getting it to you - as I said earlier, my hard copy disappeared out of my office. Miraculously, when I requested that it return during a staff meeting, it suddenly found its way back to my desk! Here is the name of the publication:

Washington Education Directory

and a linky to the site where you can purchase a copy since they do not publish on the web:

Washington Education Directory

Now, as I was saying, I recall from my high school days (mid-80s) that in a school of 1200, we had a principal, vice-principal, three counselors, and two office assistants. Then we had teachers. Most of the teachers also taught extracurriculars such as theatre or sports. We also had full-time band and choir teacher, orchestra teacher, arts and crafts teacher, etc. these are offerings that are barely hanging on and are generally costing families additional monies to afford since it is no longer a part of standard public ed that is offered in a way that is affordable for all families. Okay - sorry - I'll stop that other rant. Back to the staffing levels in public education.

When you review this directory, what you see are numerous layers of administration.

From the top down:

Office of Superintendant of Public Instruction - OSPI(statewide)with nearly 8 pages of staff listings.

Seven "Educational Service Districts" - ESDs -another layer of administration with 11.5 pages of staff listings. (you can average about 50 names per page).

The next 141 pages list the school districts and then individual public schools. The school districts repeat much of the admin levels already listed in the previous two layers.

So - let's look in a little more detail:

A school district of 12,650 is already "served" through layers of OSPI and ESD. Then just within the school district itself (BEFORE the teachers/instructional staff) we have 24 admin position with similar titles to OSPI and ESD staff such as:

Superintendant
Exec Asst to the Superint.
Director of Community Relations
Director of Instructional Services
Director of Human Resources
ad infinitem . . . down to
Manager of the Auditorium.

Then we get to the actual schools.

A sample high school of 1,150 can contain a principal, three ass't principals, vocational director . . .no mention of office assistants, teachers, instructional assistants, custodians, bus drivers.

My point being: I get to listen to a lot of concerned folks in my real life about student:teacher ratios, poor nutrition, inadequate physical activity, lowered test scores and raised testing expectations (with little to no basis in reality) and then I look at these layers of administration and I suddenly see why it might be a wee difficult to provide lowered ratios, etc. The money is being spent in superfluous layers of admin.

I think it's shameful.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*bump* for fugu
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
thanks, rivka . . .
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*bump* the second
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Yep, sounds like you have a surfeit of administration.

However, its not necessarily as bad as it looks, either. One thing I'd check for, for instance, is people wearing multiple hats. For instance, at my particular school, where we had a manager of the auditorium, a teacher or assistant principal held that post in addition to their other duties. This can happen at any level.

The duplication of job titles between layers isn't of particular concern to me, one needs a superintendent to look over the school districts as well as a superintendent to look over the schools in a district, for instance. And at each level there's all sorts of management stuff to do.

I'd say most of the fluff is at the ESD level, that's about 75 people per ESD. Its significantly less than the state level, but I've got the sneaking suspicion that funds for the ESDs come from district revenues, effectively. Funds for state superintendent are pretty much divorced from funds for schools, plus the ballooning federal paperwork alone takes hundreds of people per year at the state level; that's not an unreasonable number for a state office.

The school district numbers don't look bad at all. Superintendent plus secretary, likely a few people with multiple hats, HR and IS people (both of which are pretty much essential, particularly given regulations in place), that sort of thing. I'm mildly interested in the role of the Community Relations person, its possible that job could be better folded into the Superintendent and his secretary, but one position does not a burgeoning bureaucracy make. I don't know what the other positions not listed are, so I won't comment on them, but I expect we'll find a Comptroller or the equivalent, probably at least one other secretary, likely at least five or six more people working in IR-type fields, someone in district services, someone in operations, that sort of thing.

The school doesn't sound bad, either. They've pretty much got to have a vice-principal doing discipline-type stuff for legal reasons, need another vice principal to focus on traditional vice-principal-ish stuff, and need another vice-principal to take care of extra duties, like paperwork. The world requires a lot of paperwork.

The vocational director is there because they need someone in charge of the vocational program and nobody else knows how to do it (this is usually someone who was a teacher and likely still is but is wearing an additional hat).
 

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