[ February 02, 2005, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
She (as far as we know) left Hatrack, feeling that she no longer fit in here, because we were too preoccupied, in her view, with status and "being cool."
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
I talked to her on AIM just the other day.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Could you tell me when, and which thread?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
About three weeks ago. The thread was Papa Moose's "So, . . . " thread. (The exact title has been repressed.)
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
[ February 02, 2005, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Interesting how the thread that you linked to was such poor evidence for your positions.
Posted by CalvinMaker (Member # 2032) on :
I still talk to her on the phone all the time. She's always the first person who gets to hear my new songs. :-) In my world, she's cooler than cool beans. But I respect and understand her decision.
[ February 02, 2005, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: CalvinMaker ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't agree with her choice, but I don;t have to....it is hers, and I respect that.
Too bad she felt that way, though. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Haven't most of us taken a "break" from Hatrack in times past during times of disagreement or turmoil? (Like around election time for me).
Sometimes a cooling off period away helps each of us. But we remain friends.
Farmgirl
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I have never taken a break from Hatrack.
:pats IV:
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote:I have never taken a break from Hatcrack.
I fixed it for you.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*nod*
I have done this. Mostly when I find my work (or my attention to my family) is slipping.
I hope anne kate returns also.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I enjoyed her presence here, and she is certainly an important part of the community. I hope she does come back eventually.
Though, having been called "one of the wolf children" by her many times over the years, I can honestly say I would be happier if she checked that particular weapon at the door.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I took a couple of months break just after the election. Not that anyone noticed.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Jebus, Karl, a lot of us noticed!
(But a lot of other people took breaks then as well . . . )
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Oh, I noticed. Just assumed that you were putting in all your spare time on your new this old house and exploring your new neighborhood.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Though, having been called "one of the wolf children" "
What is that about?
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
You know, the wolf children in the video game that Ender plays. The ones that Ender drowns, one by one.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Elizabeth, aka was extremely critical of some people, and even called some of us by name, because we weren't nice enough to friends of hers that dropped by the forum. I was one of them, though this happened quite a while ago.
The wolf children is a reference to the children in the game Ender played while at Battle School in Ender's Game.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
She also used it to describe anyone who doesn't take bullies as seriously as she does, or doesn't respect cats as much as she does. And, now, for people who don't treat newbies as well as she does.
It hurts, especially knowing how seriously she takes it.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ouch.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I see Anne Kate as Emily Dickinson - so incredibly fragile. I want to wrap her in bubble wrap and cotton. If she has to take off, then that's okay.
I think she sees these things as an issue of strength - the strong protect the weak, where the weak are newbies, cats, and victims, and the strong are those that do the things that need protecting against. She makes perfect sense when you see her that way.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Like Elizabeth Haydon's Rhapsody.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I haven't read that - is it good?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's good. But I wouldn't characterize aka as anything like Rhapsody.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
What was Rhapsody like?
I know you wouldn't, but that makes sense, right? Putting her in the position of valiant defender of the downtrodden puts you in the position of downtrodder, and you don't agree with that, so you don't think she is.
I'm not saying whether she is or not, but I do believe that her actions stem from that mindset.
[ February 02, 2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:She makes perfect sense when you see her that way.
I want to point out that understanding does not equal acceptance.
I want to, but I won't.
Oh, wai--
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I love Anne Kate. We don't agree on everything, but to me she's like a china doll that's carefully draped herself in thorns.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I think it's perfectly possible to defend the downtrodden without attacking others.
I think one of the things you should do, if you see yourself as a defender, is to make a supreme effort to understand others. Not make value judgments and define people as cruel or vicious simply because they don't have the same priorities as you do.
Not everyone thinks cats deserve the same protection as people do. That doesn't make the people who feel that way vicious or cruel. I could see it if the people were intentionally torturing cats for fun, but because someone doesn't want to adopt every stray cat that crosses their path does not make them cruel.
Like we were talking about in the flag burning thread, when you go overboard with something you hurt your message. When you go overboard and attack people and call them names, then folks don't tend to want to listen to what you say. And, you're going to alienate quite a few folks who would probably have been on your side if you'd approached them differently.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Anne Kate's not here.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I know, I was addressing your posts and Elizabeth's questions.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
You don't have to defend yourself to me.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I was thinking about this at lunch... I knew it would be a short matter of time before someone mentioned that ak's current absence meant nothing negative should be said about her.
I understand that, in one sense... but, given the rather public and completely voluntary manner of her departure, do the posts on this thread really count as talking about her behind her back?
I mean, chances are, she's still lurking and reading, and her accounts are still active. If she's here enough to read this and be upset by it, she's just as free to post and defend herself....
If, in a real-life conversation, someone insults everyone in the room with one of the worst insults they know, then turns around and covers their ears, is the community not allowed to discuss it?
I'm not sure. I can see it both ways.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
This is an interesting, unlooked-for tete-a-tete.
Hmm. . . did I even spell that right?
Anyway, I despise 'I miss Sew-and-So' threads. Mostly.
This one could be vastly improved if it had. . . oh, I dunno. . . Irami spouting narcissistic academiology, or if Mr. Squicky wrote a 350 page treatsie on the philosophies of internet longings, or if Cedrios came in pretending to be Leto, and Jettboy condemned us all to Hell (even the Mormons!), and David Bowles married Pat, and they got married in a dual ceremony by Belladona Orchid and Pooka.
That. Would. Be. Awesome.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
EDIT: Great, I type slowly, and get pre-empted by humor. ::shakes fist at Scott::
Yeah. I don't know the answer to that one, Poly. That's why I have tried to maintain a very careful demeanor in my posts about her in this thread.
But there's also, as one wolf-child to another, the fact that she insulted some of us before leaving and gave a rather generic and half-hearted apology for hurting feelings (in general)--but, pointedly, no retraction--leaving you, me, and Belle and perhaps others with an unexpiated sense of hurt. (Is that a real word? Did I use it correctly?) Especially, in my case at least, because I valued my friendship with Anne Kate quite sincerely and highly, even when I disagreed with her. (As I did, for instance, about Belle.)
(I kind of thought that the whole point of discussion was that you could disagree, talk and debate about those disagreements, and remain friends. Silly.)
Beyond that, since her manner of departure was orchestrated as a stab at me--at least, I perceive it this way, though it would not suprise me to see her friends insist to me that I am wrong--I can't help but take the things written in this thread quite personally.
*shrug*
[ February 02, 2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I do not know AK well enough to say how much she is like or unlike Rhapsody, but Rhapsody tended to adopt and ferociously protect those she felt needed love and protection.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I think she sees these things as an issue of strength - the strong protect the weak, where the weak are newbies, cats, and victims, and the strong are those that do the things that need protecting against. She makes perfect sense when you see her that way.
I think this is a fair characterization of how anne kate sees herself, and I would say that, in general, this trait of hers is one I admire.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Well, Icarus, while I may agree with your points on the standards of behavior in a community, Anne Kate's absence makes me very very sad. I don't blame you, or anybody for that matter, but it feels like the end of something I was only beginning to appreciate in the past year or so.
I never even really interacted with her that much, to be perfectly honest. I tend to stick to the political threads, and she never seemed that interested. It's just that, to me, she sort of personifies Hatrack. I know that sounds strange, but she has been here since the very beginning. I have been lurking for a long time, but she is one of the originals. She had such a charitable and kind spirit. The only thing that ever seemed to upset her was percieving others as being unkind (whether justly or not.) When I saw that she had left, I actually felt a sort of knot in the pit of my stomach, like you do in a book when a favorite character has died. I know it's her decision, and she has her own life to live, but my heavens. A member of this community who has been here seven years has just packed her bags and left.
That makes me sad.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree with you entirely.
I hold out hope that she will return, because many others who leave do. But, in many ways, anne kate is not like "others," and so I reckon whe won't come back like a junkie to a fix, like some of use liken hatcrack, but if and when she either changes her mind--either about Hatrack's living up to her expectation, or about the value of her contribution in helping Hatrack to do so--or perceives Hatrack to have improved.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I love Anne Kate. We don't agree on everything, but to me she's like a china doll that's carefully draped herself in thorns."
Ouch. You may as well add "bless her heart" to the end of that sentence.
To be honest, I'm not comfortable having this conversation out here on the board. I'm sure people have done -- and will do -- their share of E-mailing about it, but there's always the chance that AKA would drop by herself, thinking, "Hey, I wonder if I'm missed," and then we'd all have to stand around looking sheepish and pretending like we were just talking about, say, this cousin we knew with the same name who looked a lot like her but wasn't the same person, really, we swear.
[ February 02, 2005, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
And I bet she's not lurking, unless somebody specifically sent her a link, and even then it wouldn't surprise me if she delined to follow it. That's just how I perceive her.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
By the way, that post was not a reply to Tom. He posted while I was typing.
Honest.
No, seriously.
FWIW, I have not been involved in any e-mail gossip, so if it's going on, it's behind my back as well.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Humor?
What humor?
I'm as serious as a horse doing the hora, my fine feathered friend.
[ February 02, 2005, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I love cats. They're delicious. I missed the whole cat thing. Probably because I don't usually read threads about cats.
AK and Papa Moose used to symbolize for me the ideal of Hatrack as a community. But part of the point of a community is that it isn't about the individuals.
I was watching a telecourse about sociology last night, about the terms "group" and "category". I think they were saying the upper limit on a group is like 50 people. I guess a community can be a group of groups. I didn't get to watch the whole show. The talked about the difference between community cohesion in an agrarian system (we are a community because we are the same) and an industrial system (we are a community because we have different strengths and need each other).
They also talked about how two people have 1 relationships, but 3 have three and 5 have 24 or whatever. The more people in a group, the more complicated it is. I guess like the philotes or the strings etc. in OSC's books. I'm going to go start a book group now.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
Aka is amazingly fragile, and I have to admit that at times I have not treated her as such. I have never meant to hurt her, and have apologized every time that I have and we are friends, I should have paid closer to attention to the things that I said or did. I think everyone is guilty of not watching their words enough, myself included.
That and as far as people wanting to be cool, well everyone wants to be cool its simply whose definition you use. The way you like to be is of course "cool" to you. Now as far as what cool is in the mainstream/majority of people is much different. That and , I have to admit a lot of people do this and I'm not accusing anyone in Hatrack of this, many people have a habit of always trying to shine in the best of lights. We try and say the things that will make us look good to the majority, and I would think this is what Anne Kate means when she says hatrackers trying to be cool. Of course I could always be wrong, but those are my two cents.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I missed the whole cat thing.
It was - holy freak - almost four years ago.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't think it was quite that long ago, because I vaguely think I was here for it, and I haven't been here that long.
Or I could simply be mistaken.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Geezer.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I disagree with everything Scott R says.
Ever.
-o-
I wanted to avoid posting fluff in this thread, because I didn't want to buoy it to the top of the list unless I felt like what I was saying was important, but now I've gone and done it anyway.
Dang.
Hatcrack indeed.
-o-
::shakes fist at Scott::
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I seem to shine the best in those darn interrogation lights...
-Bok
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I do think it's a little discourteous to speak of someone behind their back like this. Explaining she left and pointing out the thread are fine, but rehashing the argument seems a little unfair to me.
Dagonee
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: I disagree with everything Scott R says.
Ever.
Icarus is, quite possibly, the most beautiful human being alive.
Give in to the fluff. It is the only means whereby your soul may be slaved. . . um, saved. Saved.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
mothertree, interestingly enough, my firend's PhD dissertation in social psych (the one I keep posting for volunteers for) is on people categorization. Cool stuff (even if I don't understand the half of it).
-Bok
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I remember the cat thing. So it was less than 4 years.
Apparently, within the last 3 years.
[ February 02, 2005, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: zgator ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Dag, is it rehashing the argument if she didn't stay long enough for it to be discussed at all? I mean, there was the wolf children thing, then poof! She was gone.
I mean, it's not like she was forced out. Almost everyone in that thread was begging her to stay. Are we supposed to never again discuss the things she's said, now that she's deliberately removed herself from the community?
Maybe we are.
This whole thing leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Black Fox:
Honestly, I didn't get the whole cool thing, and I still don't, because we seemed to be having two completely unrelated conversations. I was saying that while we should generally strive to be welcoming to new members, 1) that welcome did not particularly need to extend itself to members whose only contribution so far had been rudeness, 2) being welcoming did not equal a free pass from ever being questioned or an exemption from disagreement, and, yes, 3) we have expectations for discourse here, and having those expectations is not intrinsically morally equivalent to being unwelcoming. Anne Kate's response was disappointment at how much we now valued being cool. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.
(You'll notice I have started to cultivate the habit of directly addressing the person I'm responding to. Hopefully, this will cut down on my EDITs to clarify. )
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dag, is it rehashing the argument if she didn't stay long enough for it to be discussed at all? I mean, there was the wolf children thing, then poof! She was gone.
I mean, it's not like she was forced out. Almost everyone in that thread was begging her to stay. Are we supposed to never again discuss the things she's said, now that she's deliberately removed herself from the community?
Maybe we are.
I don't know. Certainly, responding in that thread would be perfectly valid.
Dagonee
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*ponders* What if a link was posted in that thread referring to this thread? They'd be self referential to each other then. There was a good reason that this thread was started and quite naturally refers to that thread.
I don't think anyone's intent was to make behind the back comments on this thread. In fact everyone I've seen posting has basically made the identical comments previously to ak directly before she left. It isn't like anyone is actually trying to cover new territory, but more the community and individuals trying to come to grips with their own emotions and sense of loss or guilt or relief, or for that matter, guilt about feeling relieved.
AJ
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Wow. I missed a lot of posts, that time.
Dag, I don't tend to think I've posted anything in this thread to be ashamed of. I don't think I have badmouthed anne kate. I described the circumstances of her leaving, and how it made me feel.
I think talking negatively about people behind their back is definitely wrong. I don't really think I've done that. You seemed to feel I did wrong in the original dispute, and so I wonder if you're referring to me again here. I don't know that "rehashing" the argument is equivalent to talking about anne kate behind her back, or discourteous. If by "rehash" you mean covering the same material again, well, heck, we do that all the time around here. It's not generally considered welcoming to tell people they should confine their comments on a topic to a single already-existent thread. Why is this different?
This thread is about Anne Kate's departure. I was very hurt by the manner in which she did this. Do I have to forever keep that inside now that she has left, because to do otherwise would be to talk about her behind her back?
A thread with Anne Kate's name on it is hardly talking about her behind her back. If it's okay to post in the original thread, why not here? What's the distinction?
I have always valued your opinion, so if you think I'm doing wrong, I will certainly pay attention. I may not, in the end, agree, but that's not in the contract.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I would personally hate to see that particular dead thread revived, BannaOj, but that's just me.
[ February 02, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I didn't say that to chastize or get people to change any posts already made so much as to get people to think about it before adding more to the thread. In fact, I don't think any one post could really cross the threshold - it's the conversation as a whole, and the line is certainly fuzzy.
Dagonee
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*nod*
Okay, Dag, I think I understand.
To tell you the truth, I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this conversation as well, but I feel that if it is going to take place, I'd rather be in it than out of it, if that makes any sense. So I feel quite conflicted each time I bump it. I felt the same about Papa Moose's thread. (Which is why I'd rather keep having the conversation here instead of bumping that thread.)
Eventually it will die, though, and my presence or absence likely won't impact the timing much.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Icky I know. And honestly I wouldn't do the cross post myself, though I contemplated it. It has already been bumped once today. I figure it would have to be someone who *did* have their feelings more directly effected than I did, who should do the cross post if they feel it is the right thing to do.
I think talking about feelings is legitimate. Especially feelings about what happens here at Hatrack.
Ralphie talked somewhere about people sometimes crossing a personal line, and airing too much inappropriate information that causes her to go into smackdown mode. There is a lot we do share here, but yes sometimes intimate (in a non-sexual sense) stuff crosses a line. The threshold is different for everyone.
But if we draw a fence around an already subjective line then no one would convey deep emotions around here either. And those are important to the community.
So I think you discussing your hurt feelings has validity. You've been very careful where you mentioned them. It isn't like you've spread dirty laundry over 20 threads to get revenge. You've only mentioned them pretty much in the context of the this thread and the other, where introspective conversation on the topic, is the topic.
AJ
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I didn't really know AK and I had stopped paying attention to the Papa Mouse thread when she left, but I think talking about it here is a public forum is more honest and fair to her then discussing it on AIM or e-mail. As people have said before, if she wants to come in a defend herself or discuss the issue further she can. On AIM or e-mail she couldn't.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Good lord, see what happens when I leave to go to the store with my kids?
Ok, to those that are uncomfortable about discussing this - sorry. Probably my fault. I should have stayed out of the thread.
quote:You don't have to defend yourself to me.
How was I being defensive? I simply explained myself and acknowledged that yes, I knew aka wasn't here, but Zeugma brought up an issue, Elizabeth asked a question, then you made some points and I answered them.
As for the cat thing - I didn't bring that up in order to refer to the incident that occurred back then. Zeugma mentioned cats, and I used it as an example when I related the "wolf children" incidents to my comments in the flag burning thread. That's all I intended.
God forbid we would re-hash that. It has been years, and I sincerely regret that I ever let aka upset me over that silliness. I should have ignored it then and I have no wish to hash it all out again now.
As for whether we should be talking about it or not - it's a public forum. If you don't want people talking about you or about your opinions, don't post. I can understand out of courtesy not talking about people who aren't around - but then again no one is forcing anybody not to read this forum (except those that have been banned, and we never hesitated to talk about them that I remember)
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Good point Allegra.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I think talking about it here is a public forum is more honest and fair to her then discussing it on AIM or e-mail. As people have said before, if she wants to come in a defend herself or discuss the issue further she can.
I don't agree. I think saying negative things about her when she's not here and we KNOW she'd be hurt by it would only reinforce her impression.
Anne Kate is NOT going to come charging back and defend herself. She isn't - she isn't that type of person, she's easily hurt, and she wouldn't understand. Maybe for someone else saying that public is better would be true, but not for her.
quote:If you don't want people talking about you or about your opinions, don't post.
You mean talking negatively about you or your opinions. No one is objecting to the hug thread.
That's the point. That's why she doesn't post anymore. She's too sensitive and too fragile to take being handled at all roughly - more sensitive than even most people can handle, and more sensitive than usual joking and courtesy require.
I do NOT blame Icarus at all. I saw the whole thing, and I thought it was funny and fine. But Anne Kate didn't. She wasn't being melodramatic or going for attention or anything - she really didn't. She's too sensitive for that. That's not a judgment - she just is. Maybe Hatrack got too big for that to be apparent to everyone, and maybe when it's that big, it's too hard to remember who can and can't handle certain topics and certain normal amount of joking. That's why it's okay if she leaves if she has - maybe Hatrack just isn't the place anymore. I think it's important to understand why.
[ February 02, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Belle, to be clear, I'm not sure that there is a "fault" here, or that it's yours if there is. This thread is happening because some people missed the incident and are genuinely curious. I'm posting in it, as are you, I imagine, because I am involved and want things to be portrayed accurately as I see them.
Anne Kate was a valued and respected long-time member of this forum, and I think it would be only natural for there to be a backlash against whoever "drove her away," and that's why I feel the need to keep my side of things where people can see it, as long as there's going to be discussion about her at all.
So nobody is personally making me uncomfortable, least of all you, Belle. Rather, the situation can't help but be an uncomfortable one, probably for most of us.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I just wanted to say that I never had any reason to think Icarus or anyone drove aka away. For some reason, Icarus seems to have born the brunt of a lot of this, but I never saw anything he did that would provoke any kind of back lash.
Icarus, I think you have been very considerate and tactful in all that you have said. It's one of your best qualities and one of the reason I admire you.
I'm going to stop now before I hug you or something.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I'll do it for you.
(((Icarus)))
I miss Anne Kate deeply.
I think Icarus has been quite a gentleman.
It's an uncomfortable situation all around, as well as a sad one.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
What zgator and CT said.
And I already DID hug Ic, but I'll do it again.
(((((Icarus)))))
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:You mean talking negatively about you or your opinions. No one is objecting to the hug thread.
But you can't have it your way all the time. You can't post opinions, defend the helpless or whatever it is you want to do and expect that you only get positive feedback. One thing I like about here is that we hold each other accountable for what we say. Sometimes you get your feelings hurt, sometimes people will even tell you "You're being a jerk here, stop it." I've had people tell me that, and when I looked back on it - they were right. It hurt my feelings, and in those cases I really was defensive, but when I calmed down and looked at it I could see that my behavior was out of line. That happens. When you're among friends, you should expect that any real friend is going to call you on boorish behavior. And when you talk about as many different things as we do, and have so many posts flying out there with our names on it - you're going to get called on something at some time.
I guess what I'm saying is if you're too fragile to deal with anyone being critical of you, then someplace like this probably isn't the best place for you. In that case, she was probably wise to leave. Regardless, it was her decision and I think it's blatantly unfair to try and "blame" others for what she did.
And I'm not being defensive here because I really didn't have anything to do with this whole thing, I didn't even post in Papa Moose's thread until after she had already made her goodbye post and I only posted to speak out for Icarus against what I thought was unwarranted criticism of him.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I guess what I'm saying is if you're too fragile to deal with anyone being critical of you, then someplace like this probably isn't the best place for you.
Congratulations. She did. She left, because it is too rough for her.
I think there is room for the sensitive and articulate, espeicially when we love them.
Anyone else thinking of the words to Starry, Starry Night?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Van Gogh wrote words with the painting?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Whether or not you agree that anne kate is like Vincent, it does go a long way towards making her and this all make sense.
[ February 02, 2005, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I can't say I like the idea of looking at her as an angelic martyr driven away by the cruelty of the community here.
She said some mean, hurtful things to people here, repeatedly, over the years. She deliberately lashed out and tried to hurt people, often when they had done little to earn such hatred.
On the whole, she was kind and loving to almost everyone here, but she was by no means perfect. If you got on her bad side, she threw some pretty nasty stuff your way.
kat, your "Congratulations, you jerks drove her away" tone is really uncalled for. No one here drove her away. She chose to leave, for reasons that aren't particularly clear to anyone here. The idea that we're all so mean and insensitive that she just couldn't stand being in our presence is ridiculous, especially when you read all of the people, including the people disagreeing with her, telling her how much they cared about her and asking her not to leave!
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Belle,
Thank you. You've pretty much articulated what I thought.
I do think AK is an asset to Hatrack. But Hatrack may not be an asset to her.
I don't think it is a matter of anyone driving her away. She chose to go, even when it was and is clear that she is welcome and actively wanted here.
We are responsible for how we choose to react to things.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: She's too sensitive and too fragile to take being handled at all roughly - more sensitive than even most people can handle, and more sensitive than usual joking and courtesy require.
Okay, I will admit I don't know ak as well as many/most of you. And I will admit that you can't always tell what's going on inside by what a person shows.
I still can't help remembering the discussion about defending your personal space, and her posts about reacting with physical violence towards someone who encroached on hers without first asking them to back off. I will note that I did not critizing her decision on that thread, and even said that while it was something I wouldn't do I could understand her reasoning.
I have a hard time equating someone who's capable of throwing a hard elbow to the gut of a guy who's by her own admission just trying to be friendly with her, and then pretending it was an accident, to the person kat is decribing above as being that incredibly emotionally fragile.
I'm not saying you're completely off track, kat. I'm just asking if maybe you're taking your analysis a bit too far.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
kat, you don't have to be snarky everytime you respond to Belle.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I DON'T think anyone drove her away. I think she is too sensitive for the joking and teasing and nitpicking that is the norm of behavior here. When Hatrack was smaller and she posted more, there was more of a buffer. It's bigger now, and that means it may not be the place anymore. That's not a judgment, either on Hatrack or on Anne Kate.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Neither kat nor Belle nor Icarus nor Zeguma has been snarky on this thread while expressing their own opionons on the original topic. And I like you all, so don't start in on each other or I'll borrow celia's cricket bat, or Ralphie's whip.
You are all human and you've all had your differences with each in the past, but you are all bigger than that, especially on this thread. We don't need to rehash every argument that has happened for the last gazillion years in detail. A few general references is fine, but don't get defensive for what happened eons ago.
ElJay, I do agree with kat that aka was/is fragile. Sometimes the most fragile people are the ones that react the most violently because they are afraid of getting hurt now, like they have been hurt in the past. There isn't a necessary dichotomy as you are drawing it.
AJ
[ February 02, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Very good AJ.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Telpy, sometimes Vulcanization has its uses.
However, I'd wager that every single one of the people I called out above, has more compassion and depth of emotion than I do. They feel more deeply, and so they hurt more, but also feel more joy than I do.
To use a bad math analogy, my sine curve of life is more of a wobble, while they have higher peaks and lower valleys. But hey, it takes all kinds of us to make the world, and as I said, sometimes being a Vulcan comes in handy. It can make me difficult to get along with at times too, because I don't see things as emotionally as most other people.
I frustrated Tom Davidson at Kama Con for exactly that reason, when I refused to intervene in a situation where feelings were being somewhat hurt, becuase I saw the sticky situation levelling itself out in the end, which it did. I also didn't have the physical resources to spend on it at that point in time, and probably selfishly made the judgement call that I wasn't going to do anything about it.
I believe every person above knows I care about them individually as does ak. Belle was the first to welcome me to hatrack. I talk to Icky on IM the most, Aja and I have difficult grandmothers, and are doing home rennovation, and Kat and I drastically disagree on lots of issues, and yet have become fast friends. That is hatrack working at its best...
AJ
[ February 02, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Fair enough. Like I said, y'all know her better. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Hey now, I'm doing my darnedest to avoid snarkiness.
Like I said, getting upset over this kind of stuff is silly - we're adults for Pete's sake. I think I'm beginning to regret even more ever opening this thread.
However, while I may not jump in and defend people wherever I see injustice (I don't look good enough in tights to be a superhero) I do tend to speak my mind when I see something that bothers me, and I think some of the characterization has been unfair - especially what was sent Icarus' way. Not that Icarus needs me to speak on his behalf, but I think there was a trend of posts that insinuated the mean nasty "wolf children" drove poor aka away, and not enough focus on the fact that the people she referred to as wolf children didn't deserve to be characterized like that.
That's all I really wanted to say, and the only point I wanted to make.
All right - now I'm off to church, where I will probably have to deal with more than my share of snarkiness. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:we're adults for Pete's sake
I'm not. I think you're a pretty darn good one though Belle, plus you've got extra-cute kids.
Hobbes Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Belle, I know you are trying. I think all of you are trying. I think most of you *have* been the most deeply hurt in the past, and it is more raw for all of you as a result.
All of you 4 are basically saying the same thing in different ways. Which is percieved more or less snarky to others. I don't think the intent in any of the posts discussing aka has been snarkiness at all. If anything I think we are bending overboard with sensitivity and everyone's feelings are more fragile than normal which is why snarkiness has been implied where there was none.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hobbes sweetie, aren't you over 18? AJ
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Nope.
OK yes, but not by very much.
Hobbes Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Well drown me in a river and call me a wolf-child. Anne Kate's gone? Aw shucks, I was really hoping to read more of her huggly cuddly insanity and mindless praise of tripe.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Now that was snarky.
AJ
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Yes, and I'm making sure to get my daily value of asbestos for my lengthy stay at Hotel Hades.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
PC, have I told you what a special person you are? We're all beautiful, unique snowflakes, each with our very own special gifts, but you're the most beautiful and unique of all.
for PC!
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
The trouble with being easily offended/sensitive(speaking for my own experience) is that it requires the casting of others as villains. Victims perpetuate a triad of victim, villain, and rescuer. But every now and then, as happened with me, the victim makes a villain of someone who was not really being villainous and so no one comes to the rescue. Then what?
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
Anne Kate is just a very opinionated person and believes very strongly in that what she believes is right is right. It can be very hard for some people to take criticism to things that they hold dear. I know that I've seen Anne Kate lash out rather harshly at certain ideas and then be very hurt when someone does the same to her. No ones perfect you are simply as you are. I'm much better about it than I used to be, but then I read some of the things that I've written and they come off.. much more hard line than I wanted them to. Anyhow though I say.. we kind of drop this in a sense. I think if you honesrtly really know Anne Kate well you would semi-understand the whole thing and if you don't then maybe you honestly don't need to know.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
quote:He always left the Giant's body quickly and when he got to the playground, the children were always there, wolven and mocking; they wore faces that he knew. Sometimes Peter and sometimes Bonzo, sometimes Stilson and Bernard; just as often, though, the savage creatures were Alai and Shen, Dink and Petra; sometimes one of them would be Valentine, and in his dream he shoved her under the water and waited for her to drown. She writhed in his hands, fought to come up, but at last was still.
I guess a label is what we make of it. I do think that the wolf children were one symbol of the Buggers in this book, who Ender was only able to destroy because he loved them enough to understand them.
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threads. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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because I really didn't have anything to do with this whole thing, I didn't even post in Papa Moose's thread until after she had already made her goodbye post and I only posted to speak out for Icarus against what I thought was unwarranted criticism of him.
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for PC!