ADDED DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TRYING TO BERATE MONOLINGUALS OR PEOPLE WHO CANNOT SPEAK SPANISH. THIS THREAD IS MEANT TO BE FUNNY TO SPANISH-SPEAKERS. ANY STUPIDITY INFERRED IS SOMEONE ELSE'S PROBLEM, NOT MINE.
1) "No problemo." Uh, yes there is... and it stems from your inability to say the freaking word right. Problema. See the "a" at the end? Not an "o," is it. Right. Remember it. In general, just stop sticking os at the end of English words and acting like it's Spanish. You sound dumb. (BTW, "problema" is actually masculine, so don't start saying "la problema" just because it has an "a" and you've mistakenly come to believe that all words that end in "a" have to be feminine in Spanish. In fact, words derived from Greek, like "problema" and "tema" often end in "a," but are masculine. Just in case you were wondering, which I doubt.)
2) El chupacabra. "The sucker of one goat"? Christ almighty. Look, when you form compounds this way, with an action preceding the object of that action (and when that object is a count noun), the noun element retains the plural ending even if the compound is being used in the singular. So "goat-sucker" is "chupacabras," just like "bed-wetter" would be "meacamas" and "ball-breaker" would be "rompebolas." You need to start getting freaking Spanish-speaking consultants for your cheap-ass TV miniseries.
3) Los Ángeles. Yes, well, you spell it more or less correctly, but there's a major issue. You've noticed that Las Vegas has an "a" between the "l" and "s," I assume? Have you ever thought (again, I doubt it), "Gee, why are there two spellings for the same pronunciation?" Well, guess what, bright guy... you're bungling the pronuciation. Try pronouncing that "o" like the one in "ho" and you'll be closer.
More to follow soon...
[ February 15, 2005, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: David Bowles ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Uh - did something specific bring this on, David? I mean, not that we don't need it -- I'm sure I could learn something here...
FG
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I don't see why you're so hung up on the "Loss" part when there's the whole "Ann-juh-less" part, too. Besides, it's much easier to just say "LA."
Probably best to stay out of conversations involving the location of the Port of Los Angeles, David, unless "Sann Peedro" wouldn't send you off the deep end.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
4) Breakfast Burritos. Uh, no. You don't put breakfasty stuff in burritos. You must mean breakfast tacos or taquitos. Yes. We'll just pretend that's what you're really saying.
5) "Vie-uh kun Dee-ose". Okay. Deep breath. Let's try this one all together. "Vaya con dios" is actually pronounced as follows: BAH-yah kohn (short "o" sound without any lip-rounding "w" nonsense at the end to dipthongize its purity) THYOHS (more or less the hard "th" from "the" blended with the glide of the "y" plus that short "o" I mentioned above). God's name isn't bisyllabic in Spanish, folks.
6) "Jala-peenoz". Yeah. Could you, uh, please stop inducing shudders in the millions of Mexican-Americans living in this country? "Jalapeños": Ha-lah-PEH (as in "pen," for those of you who pronounce that one correctly)-ñohs (we'll even accept a "nyohs" from you if you can't do eñes).
7) Voice actors doing Hispanic characters in cartoons: give up. Let a real Hispanic do it. There are enough around... what do you want to steal their jobs for? Take "Mucha Lucha" for example, Farmgirl. Last night I actually caught an entire episode of this show my four-year-old loves so much. I was appalled! The villains were voiced by obvious monolinguals trying hard to sound Mexican and ending up sounding insulting. In general, people need to catch on to the fact that Latinos/Hispanics are the largest minority group in the nation, and they're pretty much fed up with the condescension. Heads up.
[ February 09, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: David Bowles ]
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: You need to start getting freaking Spanish-speaking consultants for your cheap-ass TV miniseries.
I was very disappointed in John Rhys Davies for that one.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:You need to start getting freaking Spanish-speaking consultants for your cheap-ass TV miniseries
*puzzled* It was X-Files, right?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It's important to encourage a little bit of linguistic understanding, especially in a bilingual country, but there are also accepted anglicizations.
I don't pronounce anglicized French words like hors-d'œuvres and maitre d' with a correct French accent if I want to be understood and don't want to be thought a snob.
There's got to be a little give and take when you're dealing with the general public.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Duchovney couldn't pronounce anything. But boy, is he hot...
And if you don't like "Los Angeles", how about "Sepulveda Blvd." pronounced "sep-ULL-vih-duh", or *shudder* "tor-TIL-a", as in sounds like "till"?
Posted by Chupacabras (Member # 6840) on :
*has sucked many goats*
My friend Pancho Villa, he would many times help me to pick the tiny goat hairs from my teeth.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I've been singing Vaya Con Dios wrong all these years..... Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
LJ- miniseries, SciFi
Annie- 40 million Hispanics.
KQ- unacceptable. Won't stand for it. Striking tortilla factories at any moment.
Chupichups- gusto de verte nuevamente, engendro apestoso.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Farmgirl- how many years? We have to calculate your fine, you see.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Annie- 40 million Hispanics.
Right. 210 million gringos.
I agree that Americans need to be more informed. I even think that American schools should be bilingual - not as in "reform the hispanic kids," but as in "make everyone speak both languages."
But you still have to accept anglicization. English words that make it into Spanish change pronunciation as well.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Were this a serious thread, rather than a tongue-in-cheek one, I'd agree. As it stands, no. No anglicizing jalapeños. Totally unnecessary. Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
So the "j" really isn't pronouned like it is in jelly? Weird.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It's probably good you don't live here, then, DB. You haven't lived until you've heard someone order ja-LAP-uh-noze.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I didn't know people mispronounced jalapenos. Well, except the "nyos" thing.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, and my mother-in-law says "hall-uh-pain-yos". But it's not that bad, considering.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Yeah, well, we're raising up a generation of Latinos down here that'll be invading a shopping mall near you soon enough, Annie...
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I think I live in the only region of the United States with a latino population of zero. It's pretty depressing - especially when I want to buy some nice imported chiles and the closest I get is a Mexican aisle full of taco shells and mild Pace picante sauce.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Are Hispanics in general really offended by the mispronunciations in the U.S.? I mean, many of these are words that have pretty much been worked into the English language. Saying "no problemo" is not some veiled insult. It's just a cheerful way of saying you'll do something. Sure, it's a bastardization of the Spanish phrase, but most of the English language is a bastardization of some language anyway. Most of the time, there's no offense intended.
I heard English words co-opted by the French all the time when I was over there. They pronounced "Minnesota" with French accents. They said "le week-end." Did I get up in arms?
I think you're kind of unnecessarily antagonizing your fellow jatraqueros here.
Edit: Oh, this is tongue-in-cheek.
[ February 09, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Yeah, well, that's gotta be tough. Won't belong before that changes, I'd be willing to bet. There are new Hispanic communities cropping up all over the nation, in places where, frankly, the local white bread populace is not ready for them.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
advice for advice for robots: get a Spanish textbook and crawl under a cactus. Heh.
"It's my thread, and I'll be an asshole if I wanna, an asshole if I wanna," ad nauseum.
Posted by Chupacabras (Member # 6840) on :
DB - I could never sneak up on my friend Pancho Villa. He said he could smell me coming for a mile. We once played a trick on the tracking hounds of those Americans soldiers. While they were following me, my friend Pancho Villa was stealing their horses. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Chupacabras, you suck.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Chupichups, while your anecdote may strike others as anachronistic, I'll not antagonize you, but accept your story in the spirit in which it was told.
<pinche embustero>
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hmm. Should I post about how the word "special" doesn't have an "e" at the beginning, I wonder?
Nah. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
afr - I love franglais. The best, imo, is le cow-boy. People would ask where I was from and I'd say Montana and they'd give me blank stares. I'd elaborate: "Dans le nord-ouest. Le pays des cow-boys."
That made me really popular, especially with old women who grew up on Gary Cooper. "Ah! Les cow-boys! Oui, oui, oui!"
Trying to explain to Mexicans where Montana was is similarly entertaining. They'd ask if it was near California or Chicago. "No - es norte, circa de Canada."
"Ah! Canada!" they'd exclaim knowingly (this was during the SARS scare) and then proceed to cough and nod happily.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Dagoneado- I wouldn't, unless you are Hispanic or another minority. Or a major contributor to progressive causes. Don't you know that whites can't make fun of the way minorities speak Spanish (unless they move in the proper ideological circles)? Hel-LO?
Besides, there IS an "e" in "especial." That's a word.
Annie, is "le cowboy" really Franglais? I always imagined that dialect to sound a bit like this:
"Bouge pas, you hair-lipped enculé! Dudes, check out ce mec. I think he's a flic!"
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Lighten up, DB. Or as they say in France, "Lighten up, DB."
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
I think we ought to make a new dialect that combines Mexican slang with French slang. So a group of alcoholic screwups, for example, might go: "La regamos; ça s'arrose!"
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Yeah, well, that's gotta be tough. Won't belong before that changes, I'd be willing to bet. There are new Hispanic communities cropping up all over the nation, in places where, frankly, the local white bread populace is not ready for them.
It's really ranchero music that gives the rest of the hispanic community a bad name.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Moose, go learn some Spanish, then we'll have it out. Until then, you might as well rub your antlers against some bark.
:scoffs: Papá Alce. Vaya sobrenombre. "Papá, alce la mano si quiere contestar."
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I wouldn't actually classify cow-boy as franglais - I think it's been OKed by l'Académie. I don't really know much of real franglais dialects - I'm not too familiar with Québecois, and that's the only real sizeable dialect where English and French are both close in proximity. The way we used franglais at the University was more to refer to fudged vocabularies on either end.
The funniest franglais I've heard is by entry level French students. I asked a kid I was tutoring once, "Est-ce tu as réfléchi un peu sur le sujet de ta présentation?"
He answered, "Yeah, I réfléchied a little bit and thought I'd..."
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
"Storm Saxon": Jesús mío, hasta el nombre suena a neonazis británicos. Hey, you'd think ranchero and down-home country would mix real nice-like, what?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I live in SoCal. Why would I need to learn Spanish?
And don't make me bust out the "Freedom of Speech for SPAN-PORT" thread again.... *smile*
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
I'd much prefer that my children learn how to read and speak english properly before inundating them with another language, and as a white, anglo-saxon male(read as "TARGET for every minority group with a grudge") I'd really like to just be able to order my food without having to speak a second language.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Besides, there IS an "e" in "especial." That's a word.
OK, then how about in all the other words that start with an S - consonant sound?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Human Target - studies show that young children who learn another language are not "inundated" by all the extra information. It actually makes their brain better at learning other information. There's not a maximum capacity on their brains.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
Annie, if you'd ever like dried red chile pods from New Mexico, I'd be happy to send you some. They range from mild to extra hot, if you have a particular preference.
I'd offer green chile but we get ours freshly roasted so we can peel them and freeze them for later use, so I don't think they'd travel well.
Just let me know. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Ooh - I'll keep that in mind, Uhleeuh. I already buy way more than I should from mexicangrocer.com, but I miss being able to find good chiles. You know what else really needs an export market? Oaxaqueño cheese.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I don't know, I've just been in so many emotional discussions about bilingualism and English only that I can't be humorous about this. I mean, English speakers can't even pronounce their own language. Give us a break.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
English-speakers with decent educations seem to do just fine pronouncing their native tongue.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Trying to explain to Mexicans where Montana was is similarly entertaining. They'd ask if it was near California or Chicago. "No - es norte, circa de Canada."
Wisconsin is north of Chicago. And even then, most Greeks needed a bit of "East of New York, West of L.A. and close to Canada."
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Okay, if you saw this before I edited, forget all that. I'm just trying to be good natured here. It's hard work for me today.
[ February 09, 2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
So, speaking of Chupacabras - the Latin American Studies student association here on campus uses the Chupacabras as our mascot. Before intramural flag football games last fall, everyone would get in a circle with a hand in the center and shout, "Chupa, chupa, chupa!" Strangely enough, it turned out to be awfully prophetic 'cause we really did suck (0-4, Go Chupas!).
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Target:
My two Mexican-American daughters are fully bilingual and not only get As, but demonstrate a grasp of English (especially in creative or academic contexts) that excells that of other girls their ages.
My son, unfortunately, watches a lot of SpongeBob and Mucha Lucha, and I've pretty much given up on him.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote: "Chupa, chupa, chupa!"
That's gotta beat the All Blacks' rugby "dance"! Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Annie, I think you may be right about your part of the country. Even my KKK-ridden home county is seeing large numbers of Hispanics these days. (Blacks remain almost unheard of.)
On a lighter note--you guys mean that n-with-a-tilde-on-top ISN'T pronounced nyah? (How is it pronounced? *curious*)
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Annie:
quote:You haven't lived until you've heard someone order ja-LAP-uh-noze.
I beg to differ.
You haven't lived until you've heard someone order kweese-uh-dillas.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Um, I'm really confused in an uncomfortable way about the directions this thread is taking.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Make yourself a dang kay-sa-dilluh!
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Mabus, the ñ, in Spanish, is a palatalized "n," made by cleaving your tongue to the roof of your mouth as if you'd just eaten peanut butter and pronouncing "y" and "n" simultaneously.
Hell, no wonder you poor bastards muck it up so much.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I'm just trying to be sure not to order fuh-JY-tuhs ever again. That really didn't go over well.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I'm glad you don't know my grandparents, David. They pronounce "Pueblo" as "Peblo" (The "Peb" like "pebble"). I don't get it. My Mom taught Spanish for 15 years so she cringes whenever she hears them say it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Just go to Taco Bell and order the number 2 or something and you should be safe.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
I can do that, David....but it doesn't fit into a word that way. *shakes head* You people make everything so complicated. Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
quote: I'm just trying to be sure not to order fuh-JY-tuhs ever again. That really didn't go over well.
That's cause you didn't screw it up enough. It should be fuh-JY-ters. Duh.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Most foreigners will appreciate someone attempting to speak their language, even if your attempt is pretty lousy. You'll find that merely using the few words you do know, or pronouncing things to the best you can approximate, will often get you off on a friendly foot.
This works everywhere except the touristy parts of Paris. They'll just answer your French question in English and kind fo grumble as they walk away. Don't worry, It's not you - it's the lady before you in the huge sparkly eiffel tower t-shirt who demanded very loudly that she be given a menu in English. "IN ENGLISH," she yelled, "GOT THAT? I DON'T SPEAK ANY FRENCH!"
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
quote: Most foreigners will appreciate someone attempting to speak their language, even if your attempt is pretty lousy.
Yeah, I guess that is a large part of why I don't find this thread funny.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
You skipped the big question...
How do you really pronounce Jatraqueros?
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
yatrakairos. why?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Wouldn't it be "Hatrac-key-air-os?"
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I always thought it was "ja-TRACK-eros." Is that close?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Btw,
It's "Hat-RACK," people. Not "Ha-TRACK." Seriously, how retarded are you?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I thought it was HAT-rack. Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
About Los Angeles: what's wrong with giving an English pronounciation to an American city? It would be annoying if we had to switch into a Spanish accent everytime we said "Los Angeles" in the middle of a sentence in English. Even though I can do both Spanish and English accents, switching them within a sentence usually screws over both accents for me. But maybe that's just me. Besides no one says "Las Angeles" or "Los Vegas". It's just a matter of the accent--whether you say "Los" or "Loss".
And personally I think Spanish-speakers screw around English a lot more then we screw around Spanish, though no one points that out because that would be racist and stuff
aunke... I do definately think that it's important to try to get most people at least a little bit bilengual (how the f do you spell that? spanish has seriously messed up my spelling!!!! ) hearing my mom speak spanish makes me laugh, and i'm not even a native speaker.
words i can't spell because i've learned spanish: lemonade/limonada (i spell it limonade) restuarante, restaurante, restaurant, restuarant.... virgin/virgen and more everyday
[ February 09, 2005, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Soara ]
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
quote:I can do that, David....but it doesn't fit into a word that way. *shakes head* You people make everything so complicated.
It doesn't have to be that complicated. Just make sure "mañana" is "manyana" and you'll be understandable (i guess).
[ February 09, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Soara ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I agree with you on the switching accents, Soara. I had a friend who always thought it was funny when TV anchors did that. He reasoned that if they'd switch into perfect Spanish to say "Earlier today in... Nicaragua," they should adopt a nice hearty brogue to say, "This morning in Belfast, Narthern Oierland..."
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:3) Los Ángeles. Yes, well, you spell it more or less correctly, but there's a major issue. You've noticed that Las Vegas has an "a" between the "l" and "s," I assume? Have you ever thought (again, I doubt it), "Gee, why are there two spellings for the same pronunciation?" Well, guess what, bright guy... you're bungling the pronuciation. Try pronouncing that "o" like the one in "ho" and you'll be closer.
Hey, Generalissimo Franco. I don't give a damn who founded Los Angeles originally. It's an American city now, and Americans in America have the right to pronounce the name of an American city in English, which is the language we actually speak here. I'm perfectly aware of how the name is pronounced in Spanish, and yes, I can pronounce it correctly. But if the rest of the sentence in which I mention the city is in English, then I will pronounce the first element to rhyme with "boss", and I'll be damned if I'm going to spill any extra ink over the A or hack up a wad of phlegm to pronounce the G. Not in an English sentence.
I do, however, wish that people would stop saying "habanyero". That's not an Anglicization of a Spanish word. That's a misunderstanding of what the Spanish actually is. Yes, "jalapeno" is written with a tilde over the N*. But "habanero" is not. In English, pronounce as spelled. I hope I don't need to mention by this point that making the H silent is unnecessary in English. It must be silent in Spanish, but you'll be better understood in English if you pronounce it.
*In Spanish, anyway. English does not use diacritics under normal circumstances, so no tilde is necessary when writing in English.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I've had people think my nick is related to quesadillas - it's not!
And, as an exchange student to Germany at the age of 17, I would tell people I was from Iowa, get a blank look, say, "it's near Chicago" and be rewarded with nods and smiles. Yeah.
[ February 10, 2005, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: CaySedai ]
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:English-speakers with decent educations seem to do just fine pronouncing their native tongue.
That's debatable, considering the vast differences in pronunciations in just American dialect. I know people from New York, Massachussettes, Georgia, South Dakota, Arizona, and California, and while each of them has an education slightly more than "decent," each of them still have mispronunciations of words, and have no problem pointing out my own as well. Half of the aforementioned have either two masters degrees in different fields or a doctorate. I'd say that qualifies as "decent education," no?
David Bowles, Mexicans can't even pronounce proper Espanol correctly, messing up silly simple things like the "th" sound with an "s" sound. If we're going to demand that people get it right, shouldn't one be getting it right themselves to begin with?
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Most foreigners will appreciate someone attempting to speak their language, even if your attempt is pretty lousy. You'll find that merely using the few words you do know, or pronouncing things to the best you can approximate, will often get you off on a friendly foot.
Try that in Paris or Quebec and you might sing a different tune. I and others who have been to both have had horrible experience trying to close the communication gap only to be snapped at for not speaking perfect French.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I'm gonna be pronouncing everything in Portuguese way. So there.
And that's Portuguese Portuguese, not Brasilian Portuguese.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
To all the grumpy mumblers who've posted on this thread: learn some Spanish, bobos!
To those who don't find this humorous: too bad! I don't find you terribly funny, either, with your embarrassingly bad pronunciation of Spanish. Hell, there aren't nearly as many French speakers, but I bet you poseurs knock yourselves out trying to say "croissant" properly, and I'm sure not a one of you says "coffee: Ow, late!" instead of "café au lait." You just hate Spanish, admit it, elitist bastards!
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
mais o portugues e o melhor! Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
No, it isn't. It's even, I hear, inferior to Polish, but I wouldn't know.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
okay, I'll speak Polish then.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
8. The Chevy Nova didn't sell well in Latin American because "no va" means "it doesn't go" in Spanish
Total bunk. The car sold just fine, exceeding expectations. There are tons of problems with the underlying assumptions here, though. Just because one word (Nova) looks like two other words (no va) doesn't mean a damn thing, really ("carpet" ≠ "car pet"). Besides, Spanish *has* the word "nova"! What do you think Spanish speakers call a star blowing up? "El estarro que make-a el boom-o"? Also, nova has the connotation of "new" in Spanish... those of you who've been to Mexico may have noticed there is a brand of gasoline called "Nova," and it sells pretty well.
Leaving all that aside, the stress in "Nova" falls on the penultimate syllable, while in the phrase "no va," the "va" would be stressed. Finally, no one is going to say of a cheap car, "no va" (it doesn't go); they'd say "no funciona/trabaja/jala" (it doesn't work).
Don't be so gullible. And, uh, learn some Spanish!
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Admit it -- you just wanted us to be impressed by your use of "penultimate." A normal person would have said "first." Dweeb.
(((DB)))
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Lol.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:And, uh, learn some Spanish!
Uh, make me. Fascist.
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
quote: And, uh, learn some Spanish!
um.. Spanish as in the language they speak in Spain, or Spanish meaning the language they speak in Mexico? you can't mean both, because they really aren't the same any more than American English is the same as British.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
8. The Chevy Nova ...etc I was told that same story when I lived with a Peruvian family--it's not just a gringo invention.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
gnixing:
Just learn any dialect you can... anything's better than the massive Spanish ignorance on this board!
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Psst, Kama:
In Portuguese:
mas = but mais = plus
Sorry for intruding
Hey, did I tell you all recently that I think it's wonderful how you all are so knowleadgeable?
Nice thread!
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Yeah, I realized that soon after. Too lazy to fix that.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Maize=Corn. (nods)
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
I've been lurking for a while, and upon seeing this topic I decided to post.
As far a Spanish pronunciations go, nobody gets them right. I recently got back from a half-year exchange program in South America. To be specific, in Paraguay. The intonation and inflection, as well as the very rhythm are drastically different when compared to those of Mexico, Spain, and even neighboring Argentina. Why stress out about it? We're Americans-- we'll pronounce it like Americans.
Los argentinos hablan español como argentinos. La gente de España habla como españoles. Y nosotros yanquis hablamos como norteamericanos.
Plus, we don't butcher it that bad. You should hear non-natives try to speak Guaraní.
[ February 13, 2005, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Fusiachi ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Fusiachic, welcome to the forum!
Che roryete roikuaávo. Hi’ãnte chéve revy’a ko’ápe, Fusi. Oî heta mba’e hechapyrãva.
Jajoechapeve! Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I'm amazed by how many people keep saying that certain nationalities don't pronounce their own language correctly. Does nobody here understand the concept of "dialect"?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Learning spanish is great if we're talking about the name of cities and general conversation between the growing number of hispanics and the countries majority of non-spanish speakers. However, as a caveat to all of this, I think it is much more critical to make sure everyone can speak english. After all, english is the international language of business and technology (then there's Latin, but we won't go into that...)
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Mothertree, I agree that this thread is quickly heading into dangerous territory. What makes it more unconfortable for me is that a similar thread making fun of hispanics and their pronunciation would quickly be decried as a racist attack, but it's perfectly acceptable to mock the gringo's.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:What makes it more unconfortable for me is that a similar thread making fun of hispanics and their pronunciation would quickly be decried as a racist attack, but it's perfectly acceptable to mock the gringo's.
Exactly. I've been wanting to make a parody thread about how Hispanics in America can't speak English properly, and how they must be clueless because they can't pronounce this or that English word correctly. I'd have pointed out some of the most common errors, such as saying J for Y, or placing a superfluous E in front of an S, and said that these were signs that these clueless Hispanics needed to learn better English.
The reason I haven't made such a thread was the fear that it would not be understood as a parody of this thread, but that it would instead be mistaken for a racist attack against immigrants. Evidently no one is offended by the idea that Americans in America should be forced to learn someone else's language just to live in America. But the slightest suggestion that immigrants should learn our language to live in our country was just too dangerous to play with. That is why this thread is so offensive.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Ay, qué pobres gringos... se me rompe el corazón, se lo juro...
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Besides, being "Anglo" or "white" or whatever, I'm the perfect person to make fun of your lousy pronunciation! Limber up those tongues, people, and let's hear you roll your rs!
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
David, I'm glad to hear that your heart breaks for us. We poor gringo's have been ignored and shunned by hispanics for far too long, and all of this lamenting because of a simple misunderstanding. I know you think we don't like you, but if you spoke english better you'd know that we're really just frustrated that we can't tell you how spiffy we think it is that you can fit so many extra syllables in all of your words. Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
quote: Evidently no one is offended by the idea that Americans in America should be forced to learn someone else's language just to live in America. But the slightest suggestion that immigrants should learn our language to live in our country was just too dangerous to play with. That is why this thread is so offensive.
This offended me much more than the thread did but I can't quite put my finger on why.
I think that there's already too much pressure on immigrants to learn the English language and the social consequences are too great for them to not at least try. But this thread is mostly a joke. No one is being forced to learn Spanish or any other language in this country and that's sad, but for most people, there isn't a real need to learn another language. Of course I don't think you need to learn any language other than English if you don't want, but I do think there is some respect involved in trying to pronounce words properly if you're going to adopt them into your everyday language.
Besides, I like to think that immigrants are Americans. They may not be native born but they're here to live and work. So their language is part of "our" language and until the government officially declares the US as an English only country, I'll continue to think that any language spoken in the US counts as one of "our" languages regardless of the dominance of English here and throughout the business world.
I doubt I said anything new there and I'm not even sure I conveyed my ideas clearly...but that statement just rubbed me the wrong way.
With that said, I do find this thread to be offensive but that's for personal reasons. I'm a Mexican-American who's been mostly shunned for not being able to speak Spanish even though I try. But I'll try to keep in mind this is mostly supposed to be a joke. I think.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You should aim your anger at what's really offensive--ranchero music.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
I'm offended by the snobbery of Hatrack's polyglots.
I'm just whining. Language is only one of the many devices employed on this board to make it so that only a few insiders understand. It's all part of the fun...I guess.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
I would like to take a moment to apologize to all the unlucky-bastards-because-they-can't-read-Quixote-in-the-original Anglos, African-Americans-who-aren't-Latinos, Latinos-who-like-many-of-my-friends-can't-speak-Spanish-worth-a-damn and all the other sensitive souls whom I've offended with this thread. I would delete it, but I want it to stand as a testament to the number of people I can collectively piss off at with a single post. Please, I humbly ask you to accept my apologies for being so inconsiderate of your personal traumas and weaknesses.
Ah, who am I kidding. ¡Vayan a aprender español, pinches llorones! Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
So you pluralize the "darn" as well as the "crybaby"?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Your assumption that to not speak spanish makes us monolinguals is patently untrue. If it helps I can explain it like this:
Annahmen führen Sie abweichend.
or
Les prétentions vous mèneront égaré.
or, just to mix it up a bit, lets throw in some Japanese...
仮定は迷っている導く。
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Yes, adjectives in Spanish must agree with nouns or pronouns in number.
Target wa bairingaru ja nai!
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
My buddy called me a "pinche huevone".
Does that mean I'm lazy, or does it mean I'm a hen's egg, or does it mean I'm a scrotum? Are hispanic scrotums and eggs typically lazy?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
David, you've stumped me. I get that you're trying to say something about bilingual, but I can't read the englicized (I know it's not a word) version of it....
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Skillery, he's obviously of Mexican descent, so he means "stupid lazy-ass." In other Latin-American countries, huevón implies "tough guy" (as in having a lot of "huevos").
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Target, we say "romaji" when referring to Nipponese written with the Latin alphabet.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
By "we", are you referring to hispanics or Japanese/Nipponese?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
My favorite language mixup story.
I had a friend who was married to someone stationed in the U.S. embassy in Peru. She took a Spanish class before going, but always mixed up three words: jueves, meaning Thursday, huevos, meaning eggs, and huesos meaning bones.
"Huevos" is slang for testicles, and "gordo" means fat, but can be used for cute when referencing babies. She didn't know either of these usages.
Someone at the table at a formal dinner referred to her baby son as "gordo." She attempted to say, "He's not fat, he has big bones." But she used "huevos" instead of huesos.
Good reason for a kid to be overweight, I guess.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
LOL. That's a cute story.
Target said, "By "we", are you referring to hispanics or Japanese/Nipponese?"
Given that I'm neither, that'd be a weird usage of that particular first personal plural personal pronoun, don't you think? I meant "we" as in "everybody who actually knows anything about Japanese, which would exclude people using Babel Fish."
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
DB,
Can huevon mean tough and lazy?
quote:Babel Fish
Maybe that's why I couldn't figure out that strange Japanese. I even searched my dictionary of Japanese proverbs (kotowaza jiten) and couldn't find it. It would have made a cool proverb though: "assumption is to be guided in circles."
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Ahhh, busted. I admit that I do not speak Japanese. My one attempt ended badly, as one word can have seven different meanings based on context of both the sentence and the company present. All I can say is that my girlfriend's (at the time) grandmother was not impressed with my attempts... Now German...I can help you with. And I must say that I'm pretty good with a nice Irish brogue.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I was ordering breakfast in Mexico with a few friends of mine. Two of them were ordering and I was conversing on the other side of the table, not paying much attention until one of them asked loudly, "How do you say Friday?" "Viernes," I informed her politely, aturning my attention back to my conversation. Several minutes later, a very confused waitress brought my friend an approximation of what she thought she had been pointing to on the menu. "This isn't what I ordered," she said, vexed. "What did you order?" I asked. "Fried eggs." I paused, realizing that I had misheard. "Um, actually, you didn't. you ordered Friday. Sorry."
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Oh, and HT:
quote:Les prétentions vous mèneront égaré.
You don't speak French either, do you?
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:I think that there's already too much pressure on immigrants to learn the English language and the social consequences are too great for them to not at least try.
Oh, the poor immigrants. Pressured to learn the language of the bloody country they've moved to. Of course, why should they try to learn to communicate with people here? It's such an oppressive weight, being forced to be able to talk to the people in your community. Obviously it would be so much better if we all spoke our own languages and nobody could ever communicate.
Look, I don't care that the United States has not declared English the official language. Nevertheless, it is the language of the vast majority of people here. Government business is conducted in English. Road signs and newspapers and product packaging and television broadcasts are all done in English. A small bit of that is in Spanish, yes. But the vast majority is in English. English is the unofficial national language of the United States.
As this is the case, anyone who expects to take up residence here should have to learn it. Just as anyone who moves to Mexico should learn Spanish. And anyone who moves to Germany should learn German. And anyone who moves to Egypt should learn Arabic. I'm not saying English is superior to any language. Merely that it is the national language here, and that's a fact.
I'm also not saying you should forget your own native language when you come here and never use it again. I don't care how many languages you speak. I don't care if you speak Spanish to your spouse, Russian to your cat, French to God, and Burmese to your children. That's all fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned, as long as you can also speak the language of whatever country you've taken up permanent residence in.
Suppose I moved to Mexico and refused to learn Spanish. Suppose I spoke English to everyone I encountered and resisted all attempts to teach me Spanish. Sure, there are plenty of people in Mexico who know English and could communicate with me. Just as there are plenty of people in the United States who speak Spanish. But how much do you think my neighbors in Mexico would appreciate that? How much respect do you suppose I'd get? How well could I join the community I was living in?
I would never suggest that Mexicans in Mexico should be required to learn English. Cultural imperialism is not a trait I possess. But we're not talking about Mexicans in Mexico. We're talking about immigrants--from any country--who move to a country and refuse to learn its language. I don't care if you're a Mexican in America or a Turk in Germany or an Australian in Cambodia. Refusing to learn the language of the community you've chosen to live in is arrogant and contemptible.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
I never said immigrants shouldn't try to learn English. I suggested, maybe poorly, that they do try to learn English. But it's not an overnight process and because they tend to live in enclaves, it's that much harder to learn it properly. So I think it's rather pathetic that you would find it funny to tease people who are trying to learn it and struggling at it just because some person is telling you to learn some Spanish. At least whoever started this thread is telling you, jokingly, to learn a language that won't affect your livelihood and treatment in larger society if you choose not to. That was my point.
Edit: And just to be clear, some people don't choose to immigrate because they love this country so much. Some are refugees who do it because of how dangerous their home countries are and others do it to take care of their families back home. I'm sure if their countries afforded them the same opportunities, they wouldn't have to choose to come to this arrogant country.
[ February 14, 2005, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Uhleeuh ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:So I think it's rather pathetic that you would find it funny to tease people who are trying to learn it and struggling at it just because some person is telling you to learn some Spanish.
My original point exactly. Even being as clear as I could be that the whole point would be to lampoon the cultural arrogance of this thread by using a false cultural arrogance of my own, you still got suckered into believing that I could actually have contempt for people who were trying to learn another language. I find that rather pathetic. No, in context, I find it very pathetic.
If I had dared start such a thread, the satire would have been of this thread, not of any actual Spanish-speakers. But I guess I was right to not make such a thread. The almost willful misunderstanding by people like you would have been overpowering, and my true point would have been lost completely.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'm sure if their countries afforded them the same opportunities, they wouldn't have to choose to come to this arrogant country.
There's no real need to insult this country.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
You're right. It's a good thing you didn't make it then.
I'm sorry, Dagonee. I'll do better to censor my opinion next time.
[ February 14, 2005, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Uhleeuh ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:You're right. It's a good thing you didn't make it then.
Well, heaven forbid you could try to understand my point. You just assume that I'm a nasty little person who wanted to mock people. It doesn't occur to you that it is cultural arrogance itself that I am attacking. But of course you'd have a harder time being self-righteous about me if you allowed yourself to see that.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
No, I was actually going back and re-reading what you said to try to see where I misinterpreted and misunderstood. I'm honestly trying. I'm sorry if I came across as insincere.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Oh. Well, in that case, I'm sorry for my response. It's not always easy to interpret someone's meaning on a message board, and I was responding to what I thought was meant as nastiness. I apologize.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
It's okay. I could have been better about wording it. I just meant that you were right; had you started the thread, I more than likely would have taken it wrong and I would have gotten angry and attacked you. I'm going to re-read your posts and think about it overnight to make sure I don't make too haste a decision on how to react to it again.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
For my part, it will probably help if I restate and clarify my original point.
quote:Exactly. I've been wanting to make a parody thread about how Hispanics in America can't speak English properly, and how they must be clueless because they can't pronounce this or that English word correctly. I'd have pointed out some of the most common errors, such as saying J for Y, or placing a superfluous E in front of an S, and said that these were signs that these clueless Hispanics needed to learn better English.
The key word here is "parody". I included that very deliberately, and without it the entire paragraph changes its meaning.
The point was that I was irritated at the cultural arrogance of this thread, and I wanted to satirize it by turning it around. Instead of being about English-speakers who were bad at Spanish, it would be about Spanish-speakers who were bad at English. The point would be to try to deflate this thread by demonstrating that native English speakers do not have a monopoly on mispronouncing other people's languages.
But it was the cultural arrogance of saying that English speakers were somehow at fault for this while no one else is that I would have been lampooning. It would not have been my point to mock Spanish-speakers, though doing so would have been required to make the satire work. But again, the victim of the satire would have been this thread, not Spanish-speakers themselves.
quote:The reason I haven't made such a thread was the fear that it would not be understood as a parody of this thread, but that it would instead be mistaken for a racist attack against immigrants. Evidently no one is offended by the idea that Americans in America should be forced to learn someone else's language just to live in America. But the slightest suggestion that immigrants should learn our language to live in our country was just too dangerous to play with. That is why this thread is so offensive.
And this paragraph was just throwing my hands up in exasperation because I knew such a satire would be unsuccessful, precisely because I knew it would be misinterpreted by too many people. I was lamenting the massive negative reaction I knew any such thread would cause.
The last part of the paragraph addressed my irritation at the way people can simultaneously believe that A) nobody who moves to America should have to learn English because it takes away their individual rights, even when it keeps them unable to communicate with the people around them, and B) Americans are stupid/lazy/ignorant because they won't learn other people's languages, even when they are never around people who would use that language to communicate. Why should Americans who aren't leaving America be criticized for not learning other languages while people who move to America from elsewhere are exempt from criticism when they decide not to learn English? It doesn't make sense.
I'm all for people studying whatever languages they wish. I myself have studied five different languages in formal classroom settings (one of which was Spanish, by the way), and several others through informal personal study. (Not that I'm claiming to be a polyglot. The only language I am truly fluent in is English, but that's not for lack of effort, and I learned a lot by studying those other languages even if I can't have a decent conversation in any of them.) I think speaking, or at least being well-acquainted with, a variety of languages is good for a person.
So yes, I wish Americans as a people would make more of an effort to study other languages and get them right. But to demand that anyone learn a foreign language just to live in their own country is excessive. Of course, in come countries, that's a matter of policy. Many nations require their children to study English, even though English is not one of the primary languages of the nation. I don't think that's right. Nobody should be required to specifically learn English unless they're going to move to an English-speaking country, or take a job that requires high levels of interaction with native English speakers. Needless to say, anyone who wants to learn English, or Romanian, or Mongolian, or anything else, should be free to.
You could always point out, of course, that no one ever made these two simultaneous claims, and that I was making much ado about nothing in rising up so vehemently against arguments that no one had made. And you'd probably be right. But I've had these conversations before, and I just kind of saw it coming. Or at least, I figured it would have come up in the satirical thread I considered making. And it made me angry, because it was one of the things that I knew would make it completely unsafe to post such a thread. I knew it would come up and overwhelm any such thread until my original point was completely lost in the shuffle. I probably shouldn't have said anything at all--we certainly could have avoided this heated exchange if I hadn't--but honestly, this is just one of those topics that I truly am passionate about. So my rhetorical side got the better of my common sense, as usual.
Anyway, I hope this disambiguates my posts. I certainly never intended to cause an argument. I was instead lamenting an argument I knew would have occurred as the result of a satire that I had already decided not to make.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:they tend to live in enclaves
Sometimes that is true, but my friends across the street made a very smart choice when they chose to immerse themselves fully in the middle-class American suburban experience. Mom had to work three jobs to pull it off at first, but they're starting to reap the dividends. Their kids now speak perfect English and Spanish. They fit in; they know it, and everybody around them knows it. There are no limits to what their kids will be able to do.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Goddamnit, now you're going to force me to be serious about this topic... damn you.
I do *NOT* think adults should *have* to learn another language if they speak English. I *do* however believe that schools ought to switch to dual language programs, and our children ought to be made bilingual when they're young. As it stands, bilingualism is almost stigmatic in this country, and many children of immigrants lose this resource and right of theirs, the ability to speak their heritage language, because the paradigm in the US is to move them into English and never again teach them in their native language. As a result, the system breeds a certain negative view of languages other than English, especially of Spanish, as being non-functional, non-literary, and just generally inherently inferior to English. To eliminate this stigma, I think dual-language ought to be the norm, and monolingual English speakers, along with monolingual Spanish speakers, would be immersed in BOTH languages.
[ February 15, 2005, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: David Bowles ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"To eliminate this stigma, I think dual-language ought to be the norm, and monolingual English speakers, along with monolingual Spanish speakers, would be immersed in BOTH languages."
But why Spanish? There are far better languages out there, if we really want to make all our kids bilingual. Catering to the desires of only one specific immigrant population doesn't seem particularly useful.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Why Spanish?
Because of the tango, my friend. You can't tango unless you can say, 'I'm a hot, lithe dancer in search of hot, lithe love,' in Espanol.
I, therefore, cannot tango.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
What do you mean by "better" languages, Tom? I didn't know there was an objective standard of quality. Living in this hemisphere, Spanish is by far the most useful and the easiest to learn by immersion.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Better" in this case means "ones I prefer, by virtue of not sucking as much." Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Tom meant to say "by virtue of MY not sucking so much AT SPEAKING THEM."
I didn't mean just Spanish, but that is the sensible choice given where we live and the fact that the second largest cultural group in the US consists of Hispanics.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: Goddamnit, now you're going to force me to be serious about this topic... damn you.
David, I've sort of joked around with this topic also, but if we're getting serious about this topic then I think you're missing an intrinsic point in your argument.
quote:As it stands, bilingualism is almost stigmatic in this country, and many children of immigrants lose this resource and right of theirs, the ability to speak their heritage language, because the paradigm in the US is to move them into English and never again teach them in their native language
Your argument is persuasive until you turn it around and look at it as a native english speaker. For the large part of this country, even non-native english speakers, english is the language of our culture. People want to pass their customs and culture on to their children, and that includes spoken languages. Same argument, different view point.
Why should we be required to teach multiple dialects, at the expense of our own language, just to avoid limiting the perceived erosion of your native language? How many children will bother native-spanish speaking children will learn english at all if they can survive by speaking spanish? And at what point does spanish overtake english, and the argument is flipped, so that english must be taught to spanish speaking children so as to not alienate english speaking children? How many languages should we even be required to teach? Who decides which cultures languages can be ignored, and which should be catered to?
The same fear of losing your cultural identity pervades both sides of the language argument and has been a source of discourse for the better part of 30 years. It's one thing to say "All children should be bilingual", and another to decide which languages they should speak. I'm sure that the French would disagree ,as they always do, about spanish being more important than French...Same for the Germans, Italians, and Chinese (not about French...I'm sure they could all agree that it's not terribly important), but you get my point.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Before you make bilingual education standard, you'd have to educate all the teachers. I was surprised when I learned that a foreign language is not a requirement for my education program - but it isn't.
So no one who graduates with a degree in elementary education has any college level coursework in a foreign language unless they took it as an elective.
And, when I was looking at getting my degree in English and a secondary education certificate, they did not recommend Spanish as the foreign language to study. The English department recommended that all English majors study either French or German as their foreign language. Not sure why.
[ February 15, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Well, French and German have a more immediate connection, linguistically, to English than any other two extant languages, Belle.
HT: the undeniable fact is that this country is a nation of immigrants. That we should look to preserving the L1 (first language) of all minority linguistic groups is not an unreasonable goal. The slippery slope argument that you've presented has no basis in historical precedent at all: there is no reason to believe that wide-spread dual language instruction would do anything but IMPROVE our students' academic performance, which presently is abysmal, and it would foster the sorts of intercultural understandings that we are really lacking. I know due to logistical factors that a nation-wide bilingual initiative is not feasible, but I am convinced that in heavily immigrant areas districts MUST turn to dual language instruction to counteract the damage that is done when a student who has received very little if any academic instruction in his L1 are forced to learn another language while their academics are put on hold. Being able to learn content in both languages eases the acquisition of the L2 and has been proven time and again to be the most effective way of developing non-native speakers of English intellectually as well as linguistically.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
David, yeah. I guess I was looking at it more from a teaching perspective than the perspective of actually studying the English language. I would think to teach in certain areas, a knowledge of Spanish would serve you better. Around here, we have a fairly large Hispanic population and I know that ESL teachers are in great demand right now.
But for studying English itself, then yes, I can see French or German over Spanish.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Formal language classes have a remarkably poor record for creating fluent speakers. Unless all education majors at least minored in Spanish or, best, double-majored in it, they wouldn't emerge with the language skills necessary to teach in it.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:...to learn content in both languages eases the acquisition of the L2 and has been proven time and again to be the most effective way of developing non-native speakers of English intellectually...
I agree that learning how to express a concept in more than one language enhances intellectual development. Wouldn't native English speakers benefit more intellectually by learning a non-Latin-based language as their second language?
I'm thinking Russian or Mandarin Chinese would give a native English-speaker the most conversational coverage worldwide, assuming that you could get by with English in India.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Hey, it'd work for me, but I think the point is to foster understanding within contiguous communities as well, so immersing the local Anglo kids in rural south Texas in Mandarin Chinese and English while their Spanish-speaking companions are immersed in English and Spanish would be, frankly, purdy stoopit.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Hey, David, I never read Quixote in Spanish, but I read El Cid.
(And some other Spanish literature in Spanish, as well. )
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
All this discussion of Spanish pronunciation reminds me of something that happened to me when I was in 4th grade.
My mom grew up in Texas, in a town near the Mexican border. She grew up eating Tex-Mex, knew some Mexicans and knew how to pronounce some basic Spanish words. Although we didn't grow up in Texas ourselves, enchiladas and tamales were in my mother's cooking repertoire.
I knew how to pronounce tortilla.
One day, we were reading aloud in a group, with the teacher listening. It was my turn, and the word "tortilla" came up. I pronounced the word correctly, "tor-tee-ya." My teacher corrected me and told me to read it as "tor-till-uh." Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Why should we be required to teach multiple dialects, at the expense of our own language
Since when is it at the expense of our own language? You haven't studied much pedagogy if you think being bilingual makes you worse at your native language.
And I also have to note that Spanish is by far one of the easiest languages to learn. It's extremely regular in construction and pronunciation and has a Latin base that makes the "big words" a snap for English speakers once they've mastered the sound of it. We could teach Chinese, but I don't think that (because of its complexity, lack of relation to anything vaguely English and fewer native speakers in our country) would be nearly as succesful.
Any substantial metropolitan area in the US has the resources for immersion study in Spanish and English. If we wanted to, we could very easily construct bilingual curricula.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: Since when is it at the expense of our own language? You haven't studied much pedagogy if you think being bilingual makes you worse at your native language.
Annie, if the education system is capable of adequately teaching multiple languages then neither language suffers. Unfortunately, we can barely educate our children under the current system. Any attempt to add an immersive language to the curriculum without fixing the current system would be a waste of time and money.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
How about if parents help their kids with their homework using the alternate language to the one spoken by their teachers at school?
Yeah, I know. Nobody helps anybody with homework anymore.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I spend at least an hour on my kids' homework every day.
For kindergarten.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Icarus our school isn't allowed to give homework for kindergarten!
And the other grades must give what is equivalent to ten minutes per grade, so a 1st grader gets 10 minutes worth of homework, a 2nd grader 20 minutes, etc.
My daughter has no homework, except to study for spelling tests, and the parents are asked to keep a reading log of books read either to the child by the parent or to the parent by the child. Emily and I are reading Despereaux right now, she reads the 1st page in each chapter to me and I finish it every night.
That's ridiculous for you to be spending so much time on homework for kids in kindergarten!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree.
But what am I going to do, when the teachers assume that the kids get to them already knowing how to read and write?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
They assume that in kindergarten?
None of my kids could read and write when they entered kindergarten and it hasn't ever been a problem. That's insane. I'm ticked off for your sake. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Thanks.
It's important in our case to do it, too, because when we have the inevitable meetings and such over our kids' underperformance, our only saving grace is the perception that we are making every reasonable effort. I really wish they could both go to the program that Mango went to last year. Although they too had homework, they were more reasonable, and, frankly, Mango progressed more than Banana did. For all this school's airs, they are not doing a measurably better job. They just give us more work to do. My kids are early-to-bed types, who need a lot of sleep. (Seriously, they start to conk out if I don't let them go to be by seven or so.) I get little enough quality time with them each day, without having to spend so much of it on homework. :-\
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
For a bit of good news, Mango was taken out of the ESE math program last week, because she is actually performing above kindergarten grade-level expectations now!
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Icarus, completely off topic post, but...please tell me that your children really aren't named Banana and Mango....
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Why? You don't think those are cute names? Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Geez. I wish my little siblings fell asleep at 7:00.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
The Benadryl seems to help . . .
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
And while you're at it, guys, please learn Russian, please!!!
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Nyet. Ya nye khochu ponimatye* Russki yazik.
--Pop
* The soft-sign is rather difficult to transliterate. As is the X, actually.
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