I'm applying for a business law professor position at a couple of community colleges. I don't have any teaching experience so I have no idea what to expect in terms of the interview process, tenure, lifestyle, etc.
A couple of questions off the top of my head:
1. How many classes are you expected to teach? What are your hours, including teaching time, preparation time, meetings, and all other job-related obligations. Were your hours considerably longer as a first year professor?
2. Are you allowed to supplement your income with additional work outside of the college? What do you do during the summer vacation?
3. How do you move up the salary scale? The positions I'm looking at offers a pay scale of $40k-$100k, depending on education and teaching experience. I will probably start at the bottom since I do not have any teaching experience and I only have a JD. Can I only move up the pay scale by going back to school and getting a Masters or LLM?
4. Any tips or hints for the application process?
Thanks.
[ February 10, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I have no info for you, but good luck!
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Thanks Dag. I'll save my "I hate being a lawyer" rant for later. Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*watches thread with great interest*
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*me too*
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
*passes out pop corn for all*
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Both my parents are uni professors.
Of course, that's in Australia. And I don't actually know the answers to any of your questions.
Sorry!
Good luck though...
(Actually, I would imagine in response to the summer question, you would be paid as usual throughout summer. You would be expected to spend the time preparing for the next year of teaching - at least, that's what Dad does. Drafting new units, revising content etc etc)
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Well, you seem normal enough imogen. Maybe that's a good sign. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Isn't it funny that to teach at the University level, all you need is a Master's and no education training? You would think that somewhere along the lines they'd give you an idea of what to expect from a life in academia. Maybe they should make that a required part of masters programs.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Annie, that's because in many universities, being in academia is firstly about research and only very secondarily about teaching.
And all too many of the professors who do great research (or did, once, and thus got tenure) cannot teach. While I had quite a few really good tenured professors, the best teachers were almost always non-tenured.
Even looking at my parents, I see this. My dad has tenure and is a good teacher and a better grad advisor. My mom does not have tenure, and is a WONDERFUL teacher, who puts her heart and soul into her teaching.
Beren, I'd ask them, but they're out of the country (my dad's on sabbatical) for a few months. How soon do you need to know? Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:And all too many of the professors who do great research (or did, once, and thus got tenure) cannot teach.
This has certainly been my experience.
In community colleges I think the emphasis is more on teaching than research. I'll probably take some teaching classes this summer. In the mean time, are there any books on teaching theory I should read?
Thanks for the offer rivka. The applications are due sometimes between 2/17-3/15. But I'm not even quite sure this is what I want to do yet, so I don't want you to trouble your parents on their sabbatical. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: In community colleges I think the emphasis is more on teaching than research.
I think this is very true. One of the best college teachers I had taught a summer class at UCLA. During the year he taught at a community college.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Beren, I teach adult ed as part of my job. Before you launch into expensive classes, take a look around for some seminar-style courses on adult learning theory and style.
Since you're an attorney, you already have the public speaking mastered Now you need to learn how to "shhh" and engage your students in learning activities that meet their very diverse needs (aka: learning styles).
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Adult learning theory sounds like a good idea.
quote:Since you're an attorney, you already have the public speaking mastered
Yeah, but making people cry on the witness stand is probably slightly different from teaching a class. Or... is it?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Only in degree. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Ahhh - such wickedness.
I only make people cry when I'm trying to get money out of them for another hopeless social cause.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
I'm in the process of becoming one, so here's my thoughts, for what it's worth.
1. How many classes are you expected to teach? What are your hours, including teaching time, preparation time, meetings, and all other job-related obligations. Were your hours considerably longer as a first year professor?
This varies, both by discipline and by where you're teaching. Community colleges tend to require more classes; a guy I know who teaches at Salt Lake CC does four a semester. At the university level I can really only speak for history plus vaguely the humanities; two or three classes a semester is usually normal. Once you become a full professor with lots of tenure, you can ususally get away with two.
2. Are you allowed to supplement your income with additional work outside of the college? What do you do during the summer vacation?
You usually can, but's it's considered tacky. People in the history departments I've been around teach about one class every other summer. The rest of the time you research and write. Publish or perish. You know. At the university level in the humanities and social sciences, you're generally expected to have a book published before you're considered for tenure. At the CC level, less effort is placed on research, so you might get summers off.
3. How do you move up the salary scale? The positions I'm looking at offers a pay scale of $40k-$100k, depending on education and teaching experience. I will probably start at the bottom since I do not have any teaching experience and I only have a JD. Can I only move up the pay scale by going back to school and getting a Masters or LLM?
That's pretty good for CC. When I get my PhD I'll be looking at stuff in the 45k range. At universities you climb up the totem pole - assistent prof, associate prof, full prof. There's a salary bump at each level, depending on how stellar your credentials are. You can also get raises if you have other offers to extort your current institution with. Depending on how big (in all senses of the word) the school is, there's usually a couple six-figure people in the department. Again, unfortunately, everything there applies to humanities departments at universities. Can't help you with how it works at the CC level.
4. Any tips or hints for the application process?
That depends. Do you have to do a job talk?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
rivka - "You want the truth, you can't handle the truth!"
Shan - No cause is hopeless as long as you're fighting for it.
Matt - Thanks, you gave me some really great answers.
What exactly is a "job talk"? I'm only submitting paper applications and reference letters right now. Will I get some "job talk" requests later?
If you don't mind me asking, what inspired you to become a college professor?
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I'm married to a college professor, so I can pretty much answer your questions or pass them along. Andrew has a JD, too, as well as a Ph.D. in philosophy. His AOS is Legal Ethics.
quote:1. How many classes are you expected to teach? What are your hours, including teaching time, preparation time, meetings, and all other job-related obligations. Were your hours considerably longer as a first year professor?
It really depends on a number of things, such as the school, the level of the classes, how much research you're expected to do, etc. Most of them expect 3-4 classes a semester. Andrew is teaching 3 this semester and taught 3 last semester. The hours are long, particularly prep time and grading. The hours are longer as a first-year professor b/c you're teaching all new classes. The prep time is considerably less when you've taught the class before. I'll ask Andrew for specific numbers.
quote:2. Are you allowed to supplement your income with additional work outside of the college? What do you do during the summer vacation?
Yes, you are. Andrew writes for the GRE, GMAT, LSAT, SAT, and individual state standardized tests. It is quite lucrative. That's what he does during the summer. Some professors teach summer classes, some do research, some do nothing. Tenure-track, tenured, and other full-time faculty are generally paid over the calendar year, rather than the academic year, so there's money coming in during the summer.
quote:3. How do you move up the salary scale? The positions I'm looking at offers a pay scale of $40k-$100k, depending on education and teaching experience. I will probably start at the bottom since I do not have any teaching experience and I only have a JD. Can I only move up the pay scale by going back to school and getting a Masters or LLM?
The best way to move up is to either get more experience as a lawyer (which I take it you aren't exactly eager to do) or get an advanced degree. I don't know what's required for teaching at the community college level, but I'm pretty sure you'd need a MBA to teach business law at the 4-year college level.
The $100K is misleading. Most professors at 4-year colleges start out at $45K/year. They get slight raises every year and, depending on the school, get a significant raise when they publish and/or when they get tenure. You will not get rich teaching at a college level.
However, there are excellent benefits. In addition to great health and life insurance, you get a 401K and other financial benefits. Your spouse can usually attend classes free of charge, as well as your children. Most colleges and universities also offer some sort of professional courtesy tuition waiver or discount to the children of professors. Plus, your job is recession-proof and extremely secure, once you get tenure.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Wow, another great set of answers. Thank you Mrs. M!
quote:The $100K is misleading. Most professors at 4-year colleges start out at $45K/year. They get slight raises every year and, depending on the school, get a significant raise when they publish and/or when they get tenure.
That's really good to know. I thought the $40-100k range was a bit suspicious.
How long does it take to get tenure? If you move to another college later on, do you have to start over on the tenure track?
quote:Your spouse can usually attend classes free of charge, as well as your children.
You hear that ladies?
Thanks again for all the help everyone!
[ February 11, 2005, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Beren I hope things work out for you. I considered teaching at the college level, and was originally going to go back and get a degree in English with an eye toward eventually teaching at the university level. However, recent experiences have changed my mind.
Never say never of course, and I must admit my mind has turned toward the possibility of getting my PhD eventually. Then again, considering I'm still in the stage of needing to finish my bachelor's that's putting the cart so far ahead of the horse, horse and cart aren't even in the same county anymore.
I talked with my speech instructor last night when we met to give our demonstration speeches. There was so much time in between speeches while people set up that the class just chatted. She has an MA in English, teaches English and speech classes at the community college, and is attending school to get her PhD. She discussed how much she loved teaching adults, even though many of her students were older than she was - she said at first it seemed intimidating, now she looks at it as a privilege, because she gets to meet so many great people and learn from them.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:However, recent experiences have changed my mind.
Nothing bad happened I hope. Did you have a bad experience with a professor?
quote:she said at first it seemed intimidating, now she looks at it as a privilege, because she gets to meet so many great people and learn from them.
I think that's going to be my favorite part of the job as well.
Thanks for the encouragement Belle. FWIW, based on your posting style on Hatrack I can tell you will be a great instructor. Good luck to us both finding our niche in life.
[ February 11, 2005, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Annie Mayhem (Member # 6203) on :
This is my first year as an adjunct (translation: part time, no benefits) at a community college, but I'll try to answer as best I can.
>>1. How many classes are you expected to teach? >>What are your hours, including teaching time, >>preparation time, meetings, and all other job->>related obligations. Were your hours >>considerably longer as a first year professor?
Full-time faculty teach four classes at my institution. Grading and preparation will take more time than you think, especially your first year, or the first time you teach a particular class. All instructors also have to keep office hours so students can reach them outside of class.
The best advice I can give you here is to network with other law professors and ask for copies of their materials (worksheets, handouts, quizzes, etc). Start building up a "bank" of them to draw from NOW, before you get the job!
Also, try to get a copy of the textbook as far in advance as you can. Teaching one-chapter-ahead-of-the-students is NOT fun.
>>2. Are you allowed to supplement your income >>with additional work outside of the college? AFAIK... That might look bad for full-time faculty, though. Adjuncts *frequently* have full-time jobs elsewhere and only teach a class or two.
>>What do you do during the summer vacation? Vacation...what a concept! I'll be teaching if I can, since I can't afford to take summers off (wish I could!). (I *don't* have a second or full-time job).
>>3. How do you move up the salary scale? The >>positions I'm looking at offers a pay scale of >>$40k-$100k, depending on education and teaching >>experience. I will probably start at the bottom >>since I do not have any teaching experience and >>I only have a JD. Can I only move up the pay >>scale by going back to school and getting a >>Masters or LLM?
Generally, the more "credentials" you have, the better, and more advanced degrees ~ a raise. Some other avenues you might look into are: 1. Faculty development programs at your institution 2. Certificates or "memberships" from elsewhere. (For example, I have a College Teaching Certificate, which only required 6 specific graduate courses at the local 4-year college).
You might also want to look into joining professional organizations, especially if your institution will pay your dues. For instance, as an English teacher, I could join the National Council of Teachers of English and/or the Modern Language Association (and write the dues off as a tax deduction, since my college *won't* pay them for adjuncts).
Yes, you'll probably start at the bottom (which is STILL more money than I've ever made!).
>>4. Any tips or hints for the application >>process?
1. Watch your politics. 2. If the application requires additional documents (like a philosophy statement), make sure you send them. 3. You might be asked to present a lesson to the hiring committee, so make sure you have one prepared, just in case. 4. Psych yourself up just in case you don't get the job. Competition is FIERCE in academia; it took me EIGHT YEARS to get on as an ADJUNCT (with a Master's *and* College Teaching Certificate).
Good luck!
-=AM=-
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Thank you so much Annie for another great set of answers!
quote:Grading and preparation will take more time than you think, especially your first year, or the first time you teach a particular class.
But is it still a 9-5 job, or does it require more than 40 hours a week?
quote:Psych yourself up just in case you don't get the job. Competition is FIERCE in academia; it took me EIGHT YEARS to get on as an ADJUNCT (with a Master's *and* College Teaching Certificate).
Thanks for the warning Annie. I read somewhere that there are more employment opportunities in academia than ever before, since the baby boomers are retiring from full professor positions and the baby boomer's children are attending colleges. But now that I've read your warning, I'll be careful not to get my hopes up.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Beren, not that I have any experience in this department, but my advisor in college, whom I was particularly close to, told me that one major headache of the job was all the meetings she was supposed to attend and all the committees she *had* to be a part of.
She was tenured, and said oftentimes that all the misc. stuff the school required her to be a part of was more work than the teaching itself. I don't know if that's the case at a community college, however. This was a 4-yr. private college. But anyway, something to consider.
space opera
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
My dad is a college professor. From my POV it looked like a great job. When I lived at home he worked 8-5 more or less, but he came home for lunch almost every day. Still does. My mom is blind, and he could easily take time to drive her to appointments or us kids to things. He took us to school every day too unless we specifically wanted to take the bus. He would bring home work to do sometimes while watching TV or on weekends and time off was limited to times when the university was closed, for the most part. He wrote a few articles, is active and is a leader in some state and national work associations, and writes grants. Grant writing does not look like fun to me, btw. He worked every summer but that was optional. The benefits were great, and we got cheap tickets to games and things. Many universities let kids of professors in without charging full tuition, I think? Ours didn't, that would have been nice.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Just to cofirm some of what has already been said:
4 classes is standard at most community colleges.
Be prepared to teach the lower-number courses starting out.
There is less committee work at a community college, but it still exists. It's a very good idea to look into [EDIT forgot to finish this thought...] doing committee work as soon as you feel like you have a handle on class prep i.e. 2-4 semesters in. The sooner you pay your dues in this area the better (and the more friends you make who can help you out when you hit those pivotal points in your career [step increases, tenure]). Here's a tip: a great way to start out is to sign up to be the secretary for the more powerful committees on campus, for example, the main faculty governance committee (often called the Academic Senate). It's a lot of work, but you get to learn about a lot of the internal politics and become conversant in university policies, plus you get to prove your worth to powerful faculty.
RE: 40 hours per week. It depend on how conscientious and fast of a grader you are.
4 classes at 3 hours per week = 12 hours Offices hours are usually a minimum of 4 (one for each class) but probably more like = 8 Lesson prep is going to have to be at least 3 hours per class per week (probably more esp. starting out) = 12
Plus various administrative duties = 2 (at least)
So we're at 34 -- that doesn't include grading plus other stuff (research, professional development, etc.). Oh yeah, and add in creating tests and class assignments.
If you will be teaching the kind of courses where there won't be that many writing assignments to grade, then you might get away with 40 or a bit more.
It used to be that community college faculty didn't do *any* research at all, but these days many require at least a few papers published for tenure (there generally isn't a book requirement, however).
The good news though is that at most community colleges you still get to take a sabbatical.
---- RE summer jobs:
Most of the community college faculty I know either teach during the summer (often at a different institution) or they do test grading/creation (like Mrs. M's husband) or both.
---- RE tenure and moving to another college:
Generally, if you are in a tenure-track position you don't move to another college unless what's being offered to you is a tenure-track position.
How long does it take to get tenure?
There are a ton of factors here. If you are a genius the answer is one year. If you aren't, 8-12 is pretty standard. You might be able to bring it down to 6 with additional education, stellar teaching reviews, some prestigious publications and if you play the department politics game correctly.
------- EDIT to ADD: Many colleges and universities now also require that you engage in some sort of community work.
[ February 11, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Lesson prep is going to have to be at least 3 hours per class per week (probably more esp. starting out) = 12
This estimate is really low. Lesson prep the first time you teach a course typically runs at least 3 hours per hour of lecture. Once you've taught the course several time that will drop down to about 1 hour prep to 1 hour lecture for lower division classes but will be 2 to 3 hours for upper division and graduate courses particularly if you are in a field that is advancing rapidly.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Wow, thanks for the great input everyone.
Space Opera - I vaguely remember my college professors complain about committee work. I'm not much of a committee person, thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Theca - "He took us to school every day too unless we specifically wanted to take the bus." That's the kind of dad I want to be. Being there for my family is one of the main reasons why academia is is such an attractive career option to me.
Zalmoxis - Thanks for breaking down the technical details! The tips on committee assignments and work hour breakdowns are especially helpful.
Rabbit - If I prepared my material before school started (i.e. during the summer), can I cut down on the 3 hours of prep time? How do you find the time to post on Hatrack!
[ February 11, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
The Rabbit:
Yeah it is really low. But for community college instructors that's sometimes the reality. I'm not saying these are *good* instructors.
But, yes, if you want to give good lectures, then it's going to go way up. That's why even professors at major universities that have grad students to grade most of their papers still have to put time in to class prep. When I transferred to Cal (as an upper divsion student), I was a little pissed that my professors wouldn't be reading my papers (except in seminar classes), but then some of them presented lectures that totally blew me away and I realized that that was much more interesting than them writing a couple of comments on one of my pathetic attempts at literary exegesis (although I still hate grad student readers).
----
Beren: It all depends on what type of classes you will be teaching.
For instance, literature classes at community colleges often feature just 10 minuts of lecture with the rest being class discussion. If you prefer you're lecture materials before the semester starts, then your prep time is
1. re-reading the texts that will be covered 2. going over your lecture notes
This is a little easier. But, of course, you then pay on the other end by having a ton of papers to grade. I always thought business professors had it easy, but if they're doing their job right, they have to put a ton of time in to organizing and updating their material every semester (esp. by adding new case studies).
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:3. You might be asked to present a lesson to the hiring committee, so make sure you have one prepared, just in case.
That's essentially a job talk - presenting a lecture, then throwing the floor wide for questions from the faculty.
Question period has been - for the candidates my department's considering right now - the most stress-inducing part. Tip: Don't begin every answer with "That's a great question," like our first candidate did. It makes you look like a sycophant.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Beren,
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, recent experiences have changed my mind. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing bad happened I hope. Did you have a bad experience with a professor?
Oh no,not at all. Recent experiences in the last year or so have convinced me that I want to work with children, and I'm going to combine my love of reading, research and technology with my love for storytelling and interacting with kids and be an elementary school librarian.
I'm not however, ruling out a try at a PhD in Libray and Information Systems down the road, with the aim of teaching library science at the university level.
It's been a long haul to get me at the place where I'm confident of what I should be doing, but I really do feel good about this and excited to be working on my degree again.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Heh. Great point, MattB.
This primer by Gordon Smith on interviewing for an academic position is pretty good. It's oriented towards law school candidates, but many of the recommendations are applicable across the board.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Zalmoxis, I think for business law classes it will be 70% lecture and 30% class disucssion. Thanks for the great link. It is informative and extremely hilarious.
quote:So there you are, standing outside the interview suite. I hope you are on time. (When I was doing this, I showed up for the wrong slot for one school, missed my interview completely ... then got an offer for a callback. Which caused me to conclude that I was most effective in my absence.)
Matt, thanks for the warning. I'll bet that's what I would've done too. When I'm nervous I often become annoyingly polite.
Belle, knowing what you want to do with your life must be a great feeling. I'm jealous. Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
Beren - Thanks for posting this topic, my husband also wants to be a college professor, except he wants to be at a four-year college.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
Does anyone know how this differs for Music professors?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
School4ever, I'm constantly amazed at how much information is avaiable from our fellow Hatrackers (yes, I said Hatrackers, b/c that's the term OSC uses ). What subjects does your husband want to teach?
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:1. Watch your politics. 2. If the application requires additional documents (like a philosophy statement), make sure you send them. 3. You might be asked to present a lesson to the hiring committee, so make sure you have one prepared, just in case. 4. Psych yourself up just in case you don't get the job. Competition is FIERCE in academia; it took me EIGHT YEARS to get on as an ADJUNCT (with a Master's *and* College Teaching Certificate).
Let me second this. Andrew is a Republican and he'd bite his tongue off before he'd ever let anyone know. He avoids political discussions as much as he possibly can. There is a huge prejudice against conservatives and Republicans in academia. Also, the job search has taken 3 years now, although Andrew has been able to work as an adjunct and a visiting prof. during that time.
BTW, Andrew said that when he is teaching a new class, it's about 2 hours of prep time for every hour of class. There are also department meetings and events like faculty lunches and student activities that you are expected to take part in. For example, Andrew is heading to the Ethics Bowl in Virginia Beach tomorrow.
S4e, when your husband does become a professor, remember, I'm here to commiserate.
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Now you need to learn how to "shhh" and engage your students in learning activities that meet their very diverse needs (aka: learning styles).![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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