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Engrish is the hilarity, though.

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If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit
Even though we all know that it's wrong
Maybe it would help us get along.

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I have never understood why "Oriental" is offensive.

After all, doesn't it just mean "Eastern"? What's offensive about that? It just refers to an area of the globe, just like Asian.

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We don't have western flavored raman because no convincing stereotype of the West could be packaged into a 1inch x 1inch square packet.

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Is that a challenge? Because I think I could think of something.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
By that reasoning, "Asian" is equally as offensive.

Personally, I've never found "Oriental" particularly bothersome.

Edit: That was to lem.

[ February 16, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
 

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Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
 

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By that reasoning, "Asian" is equally as offensive.

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Gestures (Gesten, Handzeichen)
While we don't include inappropriate gestures in this glossary, you should know that some hand signs or gestures are universal, but others are not. In some parts of the world, the American OK sign (finger and thumb forming an "O") is an insult having to do with a body orifice. If a German taps his/her forehead with the index finger in someone's direction, that is a bad thing (meaning the other person is an idiot), and punishable by a fine if a policeman sees it or someone files charges.

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I know gestures and body language are tricky and different from culture to culture.
I had heard of the "OK" gesture being obscene in some cultures, and tapping the forehead can mean someone is stupid or insane in many cultures. But you can be fined just for tapping your forehead and pointing? That seems a mite draconian.

[ February 16, 2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Thanks for the feedback, Saxon and Ry. I guess I'll go back to "Japanese."

Mike, this reminds me, I haven't been back to http://www.sakeriver.com/ since I got internet at home a few days ago, I'll try to click by today or tomorrow.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

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I certainly didn't mean to be offensive, I was trying to be hyper-PC.

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I haven't been back to http://www.sakeriver.com/ since I got internet at home a few days ago, I'll try to click by today or tomorrow.

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The door's always open.
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Great!
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
Ryuko:

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"Nippon" is sort of frowned upon because it hearkens back to the old, take-over-the-entire-world, WWII days

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During the Salt Lake Winter Olympics the Japanese expatriates at my company had special bumper stickers made up that said: "ganbare nippon!" That means "go Japan!" When I read the bumper sticker aloud as "ganbare nihon," one of my co-workers corrected me and said that when it's used in that context, I becomes "nippon," even though the characters are the same.

Morbo, you know that trick in which you "steal" a kids nose and pretend to have it trapped between your index and middle finger? When in Japan don't ever stick your thumb between your index and middle finger.
 

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Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
 
I went and asked my Japanese sister-in-law what she thinks about the word "nipponese". She started laughing. She assures me that it sounds completely stupid. Apparently, to her it sounds about as silly as "Japango" (the inverse of "Nipponese") sounds to me.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
Interesting that Nipponese is of such relatively recent origin.
I'd seen it as auction jargon apparently used to label Japanese lacquerware, paintings, pottery, kimonos , metalwork, jewelry, etc that had been imported rather early into Europe: ie the period beginning around the time when the Shogun's delegation first presented itself to the Court of Elizabeth the First, and ending sometime between the MeijiRestoration and the Russo-JapaneseWar when Japan became fully recognized as a modern industrial nation.

Stephenson's use of Nipponese is likely to be a deliberate (though not malicious) juxtaposition of the pre1945 Empire and the late'70s through the 80's mantra* of "Japan is gonna take over the world". The latter was in reference to its extremely favorable trade balances and huge reserves of foreign currency and treasury bonds; as well as Japan's increasingly rapid inroads into high-tech previously dominated by Americans and to a lesser extent the Europeans.

So when cyberpunk (which began in the late '60s) exploded in popularity during the '80s with the appearance of BladeRunner and Neuromancer, the milieu of the Japanese-Commercial-Empire-dominating-future-culture was adopted into the genre.
Hence the shorthand comparison between pre1945 Japan and the postAmericanEmpire world of commercial Japan.

* Mostly from American conservatives and neo"conservative"s, along with some Europeans. And heavily covered by the "liberal"media: I think Newsweek and Time were amongst the many who used the RisingSun battleflag on their covers.

[ February 17, 2005, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
I want to hear the history of how "otaku" (enthusiast) and "otakki" (geek) made it into the American English lexicon.

Edit: Never mind; we've talked about this before. "Otakki" is a new one, however, and I had a good laugh when I first heard it.

[ February 16, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: skillery ]
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
The etymology of otaku and otakki found here.
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
Maybe I was making an undue generalization... Probably I should have said that it's used in the sense of nationalistic pride. I misspoke... :/
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
No Ryuko, you were dead on. I often observe the "take-over-the-entire-world" attitude in my co-workers. Their reasoning for this attitude is that: "Japan is a narrow country with many people; therefore, we must be more aggressive in the marketplace." It sometimes seems to me that they are still fighting WWII, only on a different front.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I personally refer to myself as "Japanese." I hadn't even heard "Nipponese" until recently. It sounds odd to me, though not offensive.
 

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Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
 
Question, Shigosei: you are half Japanese, correct? Do you ever refer to yourself as white?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I second the confusion about "Oriental" being offensive. We talk about Western and Eastern cultures and perspectives and whatnot. I have always thought the words "Oriental" and "Occiental" sounded beautiful and exotic. I have no negative connotations with the word.

I assume "Oriental" is only offensive because it was at some point in time used commonly in an offensive way and still carries the taint of negative connotation. I hate when that happens to cool words.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
What rarely happens to white American citizens is being asked the question "What are you?", with the answer (eg occupation, avocation, sport, hobby, area of study, etc) not being accepted as complete until an ethnic background is given.

[ February 17, 2005, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
 

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Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
 
Is there a PC term for Asians from the Indian subcontinent? Somehow I doubt my Bangladeshi friends would appreciate being called Indians. I have heard them (Bangladeshi) refer to themselves (Indians and Bangladeshi) as "brown people" but I do not know if it would be offensive if a white person used the term. Similarly, is there a PC term to encompass the general Asian phenotype? Oriental is what I would have used but that is out.
 

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Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
 
If I want to know where their ancestors come from, I ask "what ethnicity are you?"
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
I never heard the term Nipponese until I watched "Windtalkers" on A&E this week-end. In that context, it sounded like a slur, since they used it along with "Japs" and "Nips" (as in "I want to kill me some").

The other Maui epidemiologist is a Japanese national. I've never heard her refer to Japan as Nippon or anything else, always Japan, and she certainly describes herself as Japanese.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
AntiCool: I typically refer to myself as bi-racial, or "half-Japanese, half-white" (sometimes I specify German/English). Also, sometimes I have to put "other" on applications, though "multiracial" is becoming more common as an option.
 

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Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
 
So is that a no?
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
No, I don't refer to myself as white. Nor do I refer to myself as Japanese, actually. I was being lazy in my first post.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
Oriental went out of use* in refering to people during the racial-name concious '60s via "Things are oriental. People are Asian."

* Along with other perjoritives-when-used-by-outsiders referring to those of NativeAmerican, Jewish, Italian, MiddleEastern, German, Irish, African, Japanese, Polish, Latino, etc ancestry.

[ February 17, 2005, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Anyone who wants to can call me occidental. I'm cool with it.
 

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Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
 
I still don't see the reasoning behind the statement that things are oriental and people are asian.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I just don't see how "Asian" is any better than "Oriental". It seems more like, well "Oriental" now has a negative connotation, so lets use a different word with no connotation until it gets a negative connotation too, and then we will have to come up with something else....

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* Along with other perjoritives-when-used-by-outsiders referring to those of NativeAmerican, Jewish, Italian, MiddleEastern, German, Irish, African, Japanese, Polish, Latino, etc ancestry.

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Japanese didn't like being called Japanese, some sort of connection to cor connotation of "Jap" which I guess is offensive, right?

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I second the confusion about "Oriental" being offensive. We talk about Western and Eastern cultures and perspectives and whatnot. I have always thought the words "Oriental" and "Occiental" sounded beautiful and exotic. I have no negative connotations with the word.

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Maybe it is silly and a little inconvenient that I have to retrain myself to use a new word,

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"American Indians," "Native Americans," and "First Nations people" are synonyms. They all refer to the same people. "Indigenous people" is a broader term that refers to any culture that lived in a place first. So Native Americans are all indigenous people, but not all indigenous people are Native Americans. For example, native African cultures are also indigenous.

Most indigenous people in the US use "American Indian," and most indigenous people in Canada use "First Nations." "Native Americans" or "indigenous Americans" are frequently used to refer to people in both countries. Some native people have a preference for one term or the other, but none of them are offensive. Most Native Americans identify themselves primarily by their tribe (such as Cherokee) anyway.

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Posted by the Professor (Member # 5319) on :
 
It's funny how words and reactions to them evolve over time.
Someone pointed out last year how the acceptable terms for blacks had evolved in the 20th century:From Colored People to Negroes to Blacks to African-Americans and back to People of Color.

I may have missed a couple of terms.
--Morbo

[ February 17, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: the Professor ]
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
I think that though we have our disputes about Oriental versus Asian, we can all agree that Azn is right out.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
Word.
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
WilliamRandolfHearst and JosephPulitzer, YellowPeril and YellowJournalism: with the "Yellow" being specificly aimed at AsianAmericans -- ie "They can't be trusted because their loyalty is always to their ancestral homeland."* -- along with hit pieces against Asian countries to "justify" the bigotry*. Sold lots of papers to lots of folks wanting an excuse to hate.

Despite all the anti-Japanese and anti-Chinese legislation* preventing them from having the same rights as and being treated the same as other citizens, the Japanese and Chinese still became very successful through the margins in which they were allowed to work.

As is all too frequently the case, if an identifiable minority group becomes successful despite all the legal&social barriers placed in front of them, many-to-most of the majority group will believe "They must be cheating!!!"

In that context, oriental was specificly chosen to dehumanize Asians.

* Similar to the KluKluxKlan, Daughters of the Confederacy, Sons of Confederate Veterans, etc allying themselves with BibleBelt "christian"churches and "SouthernHeritage"newspapers to pass laws forbidding RomanCatholics from holding public office or government jobs using the pretext of "the separation of church and state" on "Everybody knows that Catholics can't be trusted to uphold the laws cuz their primary loyalty is to the Pope."

[ February 21, 2005, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 

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Is there a PC term for Asians from the Indian subcontinent? Somehow I doubt my Bangladeshi friends would appreciate being called Indians. I have heard them (Bangladeshi) refer to themselves (Indians and Bangladeshi) as "brown people" but I do not know if it would be offensive if a white person used the term.

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Here, the brown people sometimes refer to people like me as pinkies. Whatever.

Indians, as in those from the subcontinent of India, prefer to be called Indians, not Asians. Indians, in particular northern Indians, look more European than anything else. They sometimes have violet or grey eyes, and their skin color can be as pale as mine, although with a brown undertone, not pink. While black and dark brown are the most common haircolors, they do sometimes have red hair. Facial features can be European looking, at least from our perspective. In the Hindi movies that we sometimes watch, I have seen a number of people who, if I saw them on a sidewalk in Canada or Europe, would figure they were as white and of European ancestry as me. They could be my cousins.

Historically, though, Europeans came from north Indian, or so the theory goes. Northern Indians are sometimes referred to as Aryan. Not in common usage, though, but in historical perspective.

Lankans, as those from Sri Lanka call themselves, do not like to be called Indians. At all. Lankans and Indians are not best of friends and sometimes hate each other. The same can be said of the other various countries in the region. Pakistanis do not like to be confused with Indians either. And Bangladeshis - well, I can only guess that that might be what they prefer to be called. I don't know any myself.

Think of it this way. Canadians don't like to be called Americans, even though we're all a part of the American continents. American is a term usually used to denote people from the USA. Canadians and Americans, despite obvious similarities, have different cultures.

Well, I'm speaking for the Canadians I know, anyway. And me.
 

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