I have to be honest here, I find this thing a little bit mind-boggling.
Ok, so words are just sounds that come out of our mouths, right? And written words are just a bunch of random symbols, right? The only thing that turns these noises and symbols into forms of communication is an understanding of the intent behind them.
Now, many people will see this as their greatest concern with curse words. That the intent behind the words is to insult. Yet, people can do a very effective job, and often even more effective, of insulting someone without curse words. So really, people concerning themselves over the intent of one word, when really the whole sentence is delivering the intent, are just being silly.
And then there are people who take it to an even further extreme. No matter what the intent behind the word, they hate to see them or hear them.
I could say: "I ****ing hate milk" And people would get annoyed. Yet, I meant no ill-will to anyone who heard what I said. I used ****ing instead of "really" as a word with more powerful emphases (plus it just sounds cooler!). The only way someone could conceivably be offended is if they really, really like milk. And don't like people disagreeing with them. But honestly, don't people like that deserve to be offended?
Some of people will say I'm using the word purely to offend the sensibilities of others. But then, by being offended you are allowing me to acheive my goal. However, if someone didn't care whether I used a swear word, they would negate any satisfaction gained by myself.
Opinions?
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:The only thing that turns these noises and symbols into forms of communication is an understanding of the intent behind them.
I'm not sure I completely agree with it, but a man I admire once said something to the effect of "Vulgarity is the feeble attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcefully."
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Heh, while often the case, it isn't a rule.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I don't curse simply because I think it's dumb and I don't wish to offend anyone around me. I don't know if the taboo is a reasonable one to everyone, but it makes sense to me. I do occasionally utter a curse word when no one else is around, but it's a rarity, and usually a fairly mild curse. I just think there are plenty of much more intelligent things one could say to emphasize one's self. Why offend someone if you can avoid it? Also, growing up with a short-tempered mother has taught me to associate curse words with unpleasantness. I don't like it when my friends curse, but I don't make a big deal out of it. It would probably be as offensive to them for me to ask them to stop as their cursing is to me. I've got nothing against free speech, I just think it's a vulgar/crude way to express yourself.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Thank you, your post was entirely pointless.
I know why people find curse words bad, I'm saying why it's silly to find them bad.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Many of the rules as to what is acceptable behavior and what is unacceptable are arbitrary. But still, politeness serves a very important and useful function in our society. It acts as a lubricant and helps us not rub each other the wrong way.
It's not all good -- it can be used as a shield for bad behavior by those how know how to play the game, for instance. But for the most part, following the rules of polite society is a good thing.
And jebus, Avadaru's post was not pointless. He made a point that didn't directly address what you asked, true -- but that's no reason to be rude.
[ February 17, 2005, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jebus, what do you think of words that carry negative connotations? Like "nigger" or "fag"? Do you think we should feel free to use them as long as we mean no offense?
Edit: To clarify
[ February 17, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
I don't care. However, I hate the idea of this forum being misidentified&blocked by censorship software.
[ February 17, 2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
What do you mean by that?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:****ing instead of "really" as a word with more powerful emphases
So, in fact, you believe it has a stronger emphasis. Aren't you being equally silly, then? I mean, it's just a sound coming from your mouth; plainly it can't contain any extra emphasis. You should SHOUT instead.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Didn't Southpark already cover this?
We must all remember the infinate wisdom of Matt and Trey.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Many of the rules as to what is acceptable behavior and what is unacceptable are arbitrary. But still, politeness serves a very important and useful function in our society. It acts as a lubricant and helps us not rub each other the wrong way.
But how is it being impolite to say: "I ****ing hate milk"? When one thinks about it realistically.
quote:And jebus, Avadaru's post was not pointless. He made a point that didn't directly address what you asked, true -- but that's no reason to be rude.
I happen to be of the opinion that it was. But still, you're right there was no need to be rude.
I apologise Avadaru.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Good point, KoM. The only reason why it is used for emphasis is because it is offensive.
For instance, although it means exactly the same thing, "I intercoursing love milk" doesn't make any sense.
[ February 17, 2005, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Jebus, what do you think of words that carry negative connotations? Like "nigger" or "fag"? Do you think we should feel free to use them as long as we mean no offense?
Yes. As long as people don't intend any offence, then people shouldn't take things offensively.
quote:So, in fact, you believe it has a stronger emphasis. Aren't you being equally silly, then? I mean, it's just a sound coming from your mouth; plainly it can't contain any extra emphasis. You should SHOUT instead.
Hah. Have you never used the word "really" or "especially" to add emphases?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: For instance, although it means exactly the same thing, "I intercoursing love milk" doesn't make any sense.
No it doesn't. As **** now has more than one meaning.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:But how is it being impolite to say: "I ****ing hate milk"? When one thinks about it realistically.
Jebus, I am being realistic. It is you that is being idealistic. In the real world, it is impolite to say that because that word is impolite. It an ideal word where people aren't offended by things that don't really matter, it wouldn't necessarily be.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Since you are asking for the thoughts of others, I will say that my automatic reaction to someone who curses to show their displeasure is that they are displaying a callous sort of anger, that they feel the need to use harsh words to show that anger, and that in using those words it is almost an act of unintended violence against me. I am not trying to rationalize this reaction, just explain what it is.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:No it doesn't. As **** now has more than one meaning.
Come now, you look like you're just arguing to argue now.
Replace "intercoursing" with whatever synonym is appropriate. Perhaps fecesing? Drinking? Urinating?
[ February 17, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Jebus, I am being realistic. It is you that is being idealistic. In the real world, it is impolite to say that because that word is impolite. It an ideal word where people aren't offended by things that don't really matter, it wouldn't necessarily be.
And shouldn't we strive to achieve a more ideal world?
Obvioulsy, there are some people who are irrational in their dislike of curse words, and there's no point offending them, or trying to explain that they're being irrational. But does everyone agree they are in fact being irrational?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Since you are asking for the thoughts of others, I will say that my automatic reaction to someone who curses to show their displeasure is that they are displaying a callous sort of anger, that they feel the need to use harsh words to show that anger, and that in using those words it is almost an act of unintended violence against me. I am not trying to rationalize this reaction, just explain what it is.
Ok, but shouldn't you try to rationalise it, for yourself?
quote:Replace "intercoursing" with whatever synonym is appropriate. Perhaps fecesing? Drinking? Urinating?
Try the one I used: "really".
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Obvioulsy, there are some people who are irrational in their dislike of curse words, and there's no point offending them, or trying to explain that they're being irrational. But does everyone agree they are in fact being irrational?
You ignored my question above, Jebus. I think it is completely irrational that people find the word "Oriental" insulting. But out of respect for others, I will be careful in what term I use to describe what I think of as being "Oriental people".
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Ok, but shouldn't you try to rationalise it, for yourself?
It is as irrational as your dislike of milk. Why don't you try liking milk?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
The argument that it's just a word, just another sound, is silly. If that were the case- if meaning didn't matter, then we could use a swear word that meant rice pudding to the same effect. If that were the case, motherf** wouldn't be the worst of the terrible swearwords we know. If it's just another word, then why are so many people so utterly offended by its use?
Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear. If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place.
The reason curse words exist is to offend. People use them to offend and people who have decided to use them on a much more regular basis, in an inane context, use other words when they really mean to express what that word used to mean. And most people I've met who use them with high frequency do so to adopt an image or attitude of non-comformity and disdain for society. This is exactly why teenage punks pick up the habit.
Seen another way, clean, respectful language is used to show honor, respect, and good will towards those around you. Rather than gripe about what you're "not allowed' to say (because, trust me, things could be far more draconian than they are now), how about trying to express respect toward your fellow human beings with the language you use?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: You ignored my question above, Jebus. I think it is completely irrational that people find the word "Oriental" insulting. But out of respect for others, I will be careful in what term I use to describe what I think of as being "Oriental people".
Understandable. But do you agree those who find the term Oriental insulting, when you mean no insult, are being irrational?
quote: It is as irrational as your dislike of milk. Why don't you try liking milk?
How is a dislike of milk irrational?
I'm no biology expert, but I'm pretty sure its to do with taste buds and what not.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:And shouldn't we strive to achieve a more ideal world?
I never said we shouldn't, I was responding to your idea that realistically, curse words should not be offensive. I told you that ideally they shouldn't be offensive, but realistically they definitely are.
quote:Try the one I used: "really".
We are obviously not understanding each other.
My point was that the only reason that certain words (we'll use the f word for this example) are commonly used is because they are offensive. Yes, that word can be used as a stronger form of "really", but only because it is offensive. If the f word only referred to intercourse without all of the vulgar baggage that comes with the word, then the sentences "I ******* love milk" would be pretty much the same as "I intercourse love milk".
It is impossible to remove the a word from the connotations that come with it, especially in English. I know that it annoys you, but that's just the way the world is.
I know you think the world shouldn't be that way. Personally, it doesn't bother me. Human nature is such that even if we de-stygmatized all words, within a short period of time we'd have a whole new list of words that have all new stigmas.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think that "Oriental" being negative is a crying shame because it holds *no* negative meaning for me. In fact, if anything, it has a positive connotation. But realizing that it might inadvertantly insult others is a good enough reason for me to avoid using it--especially with people I don't know well.
As for your liking of milk being irrational, it is completely irrational as is every instance of preference or dislike. It isn't about your tastebuds at all since your tastebuds and mine are pretty darn similar. I love milk. It's in your head, dude.
[ February 17, 2005, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I know you think the world shouldn't be that way. Personally, it doesn't bother me. Human nature is such that even if we de-stygmatized all words, within a short period of time we'd have a whole new list of words that have all new stigmas.
The word "suck" used to be very vulgar. Now--not so much. Maybe the same will be true for some of the words we consider cuss words. But for now, this is the way society is, and that actually does make a difference.
"Hell" and "damn" are not at all swear words in South Africa and some other previous colonies of Britain. I can't remember about England itself though. But in England "bloody" and "bugger" are very bad words. If I use them here, it is funny. If I use them there, I am being offensive. That is an important distinction and one that I should pay attention to if I intend to be respectful to others.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:Understandable. But do you agree those who find the term Oriental insulting, when you mean no insult, are being irrational?
Irrational is not always bad. Rational is not always good.
I love a lot of songs that I think are crappy songs. Why? I don't know. I'm irrational that way, and I don't feel bad about it.
quote:How is a dislike of milk irrational?
I'm no biology expert, but I'm pretty sure its to do with taste buds and what not.
It is much more than taste buds and chemistry. Much of it boils down to personal taste, which is definitely irrational.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:The argument that it's just a word, just another sound, is silly. If that were the case- if meaning didn't matter, then we could use a swear word that meant rice pudding to the same effect. If that were the case, motherf** wouldn't be the worst of the terrible swearwords we know. If it's just another word, then why are so many people so utterly offended by its use?
Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear.
It's a stronger version of really. That's the way I, and many other people intend it. Once that becomes the intent of the word, that's what the word means. Whether that causes the usefulness of language to decrease somehow (though I don't know how) is irrelevant.
quote:If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place.
So?
quote:The reason curse words exist is to offend. People use them to offend and people who have decided to use them on a much more regular basis, in an inane context, use other words when they really mean to express what that word used to mean. And most people I've met who use them with high frequency do so to adopt an image or attitude of non-comformity and disdain for society. This is exactly why teenage punks pick up the habit.
And thus, to be offended by them is to allow to them succeed in thier objective.
quote:Seen another way, clean, respectful language is used to show honor, respect, and good will towards those around you. Rather than gripe about what you're "not allowed' to say (because, trust me, things could be far more draconian than they are now)
Oh really? I was under the impression that social limitations on speech was the most opressive it could get.
quote:how about trying to express respect toward your fellow human beings with the language you use?
But I don't see the language I use as being direspectful.
In trying to explain why these words are offensive, you have told me that it is because they are offensive. Great job!
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"I don't care. However, I hate the idea of this forum being misidentified&blocked by censorship software."
"What do you mean by that?"
Didn't see Beverly's intervening post before posting my own. Personally, I find the words she chose to post to be even less acceptable on a public forum such as this. I don't put up with them in real life at all, except in terms of group self-identification.
What I meant is that software isn't intelligent, can't understand context. And therefore, censorship programs use keywords/phrases to identify what should be blocked. Which led to such things as those programs blocking news articles which contained reference to former House Majority Leader Dick Armey.
At the workday level, NewScientist reported that a respected researcher doing consulting work was called to the division head's office to be scolded for using her office computer to search for porn. Because the corporate censorship software used the first four letters/symbols of words to identify&report computer misuse. Her specialty and what she was hired to research: X-ray crystallography.
[ February 27, 2005, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
Unfortunately Jebus, that IS the reason they are offensive. There's nothing you can do about it. You find it irrational, but it's just a matter of linguistics. Deal with it.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:In trying to explain why these words are offensive, you have told me that it is because they are offensive. Great job!
I told you it was because it reduced the usefulness of language and reminded people of gross things.
And telling someone not to be offended is one of the more inane things I've ever heard.
What if I called you a brainwashed idiot whose writing made little more sense than the grunting of a primitive ape and then told you not to be offended by that?
[ February 17, 2005, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Annie ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:My point was that the only reason that certain words (we'll use the f word for this example) are commonly used is because they are offensive. Yes, that word can be used as a stronger form of "really", but only because it is offensive. If the f word only referred to intercourse without all of the vulgar baggage that comes with the word, then the sentences "I ******* love milk" would be pretty much the same as "I intercourse love milk".
It is impossible to remove the a word from the connotations that come with it, especially in English. I know that it annoys you, but that's just the way the world is.
That's a good point. However, I don't think it's impossible to remove the connotations.
quote: I think that "Oriental" being negative is a crying shame because it holds *no* negative meaning for me. In fact, if anything, it has a positive connotation. But realizing that it might inadvertantly insult others is a good enough reason for me to avoid using it--especially with people I don't know well.
Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence?
quote:As for your liking of milk being irrational, it is completely irrational as is every instance of preference or dislike. It isn't about your tastebuds at all since your tastebuds and mine are pretty darn similar. I love milk. It's in your head, dude.
But that's assuming that everything tastes the same to everyone.
quote:Edit: And you still never answered my question about words like "nigger" and "fag" which *definitely* have a negative connotation.
Ah that's what you're talking about. I think you'll find I did.
quote:Unfortunately Jebus, that IS the reason they are offensive. There's nothing you can do about it. You find it irrational, but it's just a matter of linguistics. Deal with it.
Heh screw you. I won't deal with it. I'll analyse it.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
I believe that no words are off-limits, but there are words that are considered vulgar. It's not that the words are not allowed - it's that when you use them, knowing they are impolite, you have the possibilty of offending those around you. Depending on your relationship to the listener there is a chance you are also deliberately disrepecting them.
For instance, I rarely swear in front of my grandmother because I respect her enough not to offend her. She finds the words offensive so it's good manners not to use those words.
In front of my friends or my spouse my language is pretty blue. Once I go out in public and I am surrounded by strangers I give them the respect of not cursing. Not because the words are bad - because I do not know them well enough to know their beliefs or to be that informal around them. I might pick a fry from a friend's plate ... but I wouldn't take a fry from someone at the next table ... see where I'm going?
Society is based on token behaviors. When I tell someone "Thank You" it means little until you realize it's a token of gratitude - a giving of respect. Swearing, in many instances, is a token of a lack of respect. The words are not bad - but because they are considered vulgar - using them in the wrong circumstance can be a token of disrespect.
I am offended when I hear teens swearing loudly in public. I find it rude. I know they are just trying to be big and bad, but I do take it as a sign that they don't care about others.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence?
Yes. Just as irrational as you are about disliking milk.
quote: But that's assuming that everything tastes the same to everyone.
So, you wonder if I see the same blue as you do? I think it is *far* more likely that it is about preference. Preference is by nature irrational. As has been said, irrational!=bad.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: I told you it was because it reduced the usefulness of language and reminded people of gross things.
I don't know how it reduced the usefulnnes of language though.
quote:And telling someone not to be offended is one of the more inane things I've ever heard.
What if I called you a brainwashed idiot whose writing made little more sense than the grunting of a primitive ape and then told you not to be offended by that?
Would you mean it offensively, or as a joke?
[ February 17, 2005, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Already gave you mine, Beverly. With the repetition&additions, I think you are being obnoxious. Apparently, none of those words offend you, or you wouldn't be posting them.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:In trying to explain why these words are offensive, you have told me that it is because they are offensive. Great job!
Exactly! The reason they are offensive is because they offend people.
That is the reason. I know you don't like it.
And as I have said twice before in this thread, words like that only can be used to mean "really" because they are offensive. If they weren't offensive, they wouldn't be used.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: When I tell someone "Thank You" it means little until you realize it's a token of gratitude - a giving of respect.
This reminds me of a funny thought. My husband rolls his eyes at machines that say "thank you".
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Already gave you mine, Beverly. With the repetition&additions, I think you are being obnoxious. Apparently, none of those words offend you, or you wouldn't be posting them.
They don't offend me personally because none of them apply to me. I did not do it to offend, I did it to make a point. I repeated myself because he didn't acknowledge what I said. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I hope people know that I wouldn't use those words in context, ever.
Edit: I see his response now. It must have come up while I was posting. I will delete my repitition.
[ February 17, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear. If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place.
There you go Jebus. You can read it again.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. Just as irrational as you are about disliking milk.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But that's assuming that everything tastes the same to everyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you wonder if I see the same blue as you do? I think it is *far* more likely that it is about preference. Preference is by nature irrational. As has been said, irrational!=bad.
Well I happen to believe you are wrong. I don't believe preference is irrational, just a relfection of who we are and our experiences. I believe that someone's dislike for milk can be traced back to a series of perhaps small or large acts in their lives which have shaped who they are.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Ok, so words are just sounds that come out of our mouths, right? And written words are just a bunch of random symbols, right? The only thing that turns these noises and symbols into forms of communication is an understanding of the intent behind them.
Words are sounds which we as a group have agreed mean certain things. Curse words are offensive because we as a society have agreed they mean something offensive. This is utterly arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than agreeing that the word "cat" refers to a small four legged furry domesticated animal.
Asking why people are offended when someone says f***, is as ridiculous of asking why people think of felines when someone says cat. The only difference is that we have certain sub-cultures that have given a different meaning to f***.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence?
No more than you are being irrational when you choose to use a word which is widely known to have offensiive meaning when you mean no offense.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I believe that someone's dislike for milk can be traced back to a series of perhaps small or large acts in their lives which have shaped who they are.
And I think it is the same way with words.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Exactly! The reason they are offensive is because they offend people.
That is the reason. I know you don't like it.
And as I have said twice before in this thread, words like that only can be used to mean "really" because they are offensive. If they weren't offensive, they wouldn't be used.
And that is why it is silly to be offended by them.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear. If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There you go Jebus. You can read it again.
I'm gonna start ignoring you, hopefully you'll figure out why.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Oh, that's mature.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Words are sounds which we as a group have agreed mean certain things. Curse words are offensive because we as a society have agreed they mean something offensive. This is utterly arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than agreeing that the word "cat" refers to a small four legged furry domesticated animal.
Asking why people are offended when someone says f***, is as ridiculous of asking why people think of felines when someone says cat. The only difference is that we have certain sub-cultures that have given a different meaning to f***.
Not really. As the only reason we think of a cat when someone says "cat" is because we know that's what they mean. However when someone gets offended at hearing **** when it wasn't meant offensively it's because they are mistaken in how it was to be recieved or they are irrational.
[ February 17, 2005, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Oh, that's mature.
::sucks thumb::
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: And that is why it is silly to be offended by them.
You know, he used to agree with you. I know, because I remember him feeding me the same arguments when we were dating. I'm glad he has learned to care more about treating others with respect. Your attitude *does* seem, um, young.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
This is the second time in two days that I find myself arguing against an idea that I espoused when I was in my early 20s.
I guess that there is truth to the old saying "Don't trust anyone over 30".
[ February 17, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Heh.
I understand that using swear words when dealing with certain people is stupid. I wouldn't use them in a job interview. I wouldn't use them around my parents that much. I wouldn't use them with most people outside my age-group actually.
But I think it's stupid that I don't. And the only reason I don't is because of the irrationality of others.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
So what stops you from taking a whizz in public?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:As the only reason we think of a cat when someone says "cat" is because we know that's what they mean. However when someone gets offended at hearing **** when it wasn't meant offensively it's because they are mistaken in how it was to be recieved or they are irrational.
And if I used the word "cat" to mean "ice cream", many people would assume I was referring to a feline and respond accordingly. If I said "I really enjoy eating cat with chocolate sauce", it would hardly be irrational if cat lovers took offense even though I meant something entirely different.
What is irrational is that you use a word which has a widely accepted meaning (crude and offensive) and then think it is unreasonable for people to be offended by it.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:So what stops you from taking a whizz in public?
A lack of the proper amount of alcohol.
This has been cured on several occasions.
[ February 17, 2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: And if I used the word "cat" to mean "ice cream", many people would assume I was referring to a feline and respond accordingly. If I said "I really enjoy eating cat with chocolate sauce", it would hardly be irrational if cat lovers took offense even though I meant something entirely different.
That's because they would be mistaken of the intent, which is understandable. However, once they are made aware of the intent, and they still feel insulted that you have just connected the word of the cats they love some much, with the idea of eating them, then they are being irrational.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:But I think it's stupid that I don't. And the only reason I don't is because of the irrationality of others.
I can understand that.
But people aren't rational, and there's no point in getting upset that they aren't.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Is it the speakers responsibility to choose words that will be correctly understood or the listeners responsibility to interpolate between the words to obtain correct understanding?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: But people aren't rational, and there's no point in getting upset that they aren't.
I am *so* glad you came to believe this, Porter. Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
Look at it this way. Let's say I have a friend and she is morbidly obese. Maybe I wake up one day and feel it's my job to discuss the matter with her. I know my goal is not to offend her so I feel perfectly okay in saying:
"Sally, you are really fat. Your clothes hardly fit, your husband doesn't want you anymore, and you can hardly fit in the seat at the theater. And you had 2 pieces of cake the other day - like you needed 2 pieces!"
Am I to be surprised when she tells me to kiss off and runs sobbing out of my house? I mean, I didn't mean to offend her, right? The problem must be with Sally!
The point is that intent is only a part of the equation. My knowledge of Sally or how a reasonable person might perceive my words must also - if I am a caring person - be taken into consideration.
I might think F--- is a great way to punctuate my sentences but if Reverend Brown doesn't agree then the fault is not with Reverend Brown. I should have chosen a more appropriate word.
Just like I would skip the fat jokes when I am with my friend Sally. Common courtesy. Michelle
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
So you sidestepped the question, I'll rephase for you. What prohibits you from urinating precisely when and where you are when the urge hits you?
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Part of communicating effectively is to understand how your words will be received by your audience.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
MichelleEly: Absolutely. Coming *at least* half-way, if not more, is part of us all getting along in this crazy world.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: Is it the speakers responsibility to choose words that will be correctly understood or the listeners responsibility to interpolate between the words to obtain correct understanding?
I think it's easy to understand when I say "I ****ing hate milk" That I don't mean it offensively.
On the other hand, where I to say "**** you" I probably would mean it offensively.
quote: So you sidestepped the question, I'll rephase for you. What prohibits you from urinating precisely when and where you are when the urge hits you?
Well, I could get a fine from a nice police officer.
But other than that, and the possibility of offending other people, I see no reason why not to.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
quote: Heh.
I understand that using swear words when dealing with certain people is stupid. I wouldn't use them in a job interview. I wouldn't use them around my parents that much. I wouldn't use them with most people outside my age-group actually.
But I think it's stupid that I don't. And the only reason I don't is because of the irrationality of others.
It's irrational for people to not like certain words that you would prefer to use? Okay. If someone were to use racial epithets in front of you and you objected, would you be irrational? Just words.
If someone were to loudly and crudely talk about your mother, no intent to offend you, would you object? Why?
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:Part of communicating effectively is to understand how your words will be received by your audience.
On the other side, it is also important to try to understand what was meant by what was said.
For example, in Brazil, it is no more offensive to say that somebody sure has gained some weight these last few months than it is to tell them that their hair shure has gotten longer. Many missionaries, especially the female ones, really had to learn to not be offended when people said things like that.
So in interacting with you, jebus, I can try to not be offended when you use crude words. But it would be hard for me. It would be even harder for me now that I know that you know how offensive those words are.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
So, jebus, you buy into what I may term the "Humpty Dumpty" theory of word use?
quote: 'There's glory for you!'
'I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't--till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master--that's all.'
-- Through the Looking Glass , Lewis Carroll
Jen
[ February 17, 2005, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Expletives — words intended to express crass emotion, anger, and a desire to hurt — are an integral part of our language and our hardwired social behavior. Trying to expunge the expletive from language (in this case, by declaring that no words should be considered offensive) would be very much like trying to expunge the verb or the preposition. You could try to remove the words themselves, but they serve such a vital purpose in communication, that eventually, they would have to be replaced somehow.
One way to express crass emotion is to get up into someone's face and go "AAAAAAAAAAAAGHBLABLABLABLABLABLAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!" and then hit them with a rock. Or, to achieve the same effect, you can just say "F***!" It's the same thing, except one is done with language and one is done without. "F***!" is actually a remarkably effective word, in that it is so very offensive that you can let out a lot of really powerful emotion with a single syllable, rather than with a violent fit.
The desire to express violent emotion is not something that will go away if we remove the linguistic means of doing so. We'll just become less articulate about it. You'll see more scenes of someone biting their lip in frustration and banging on their desk and screaming.
While some people overuse the word "F***!" to the point at which it no longer shocks them, it still serves the same purpose that it did before. It adds weight to an expression, and vents emotion in a satisfying sort of pleasurable way, even when you are used to it. (It's actually kind of like smoking, if you think about it. When you first smell someone else's tobacco smoke, it is noxious and makes you cough. But when you get used to using it, it becomes an important part of how you relax and influence your own frame of mind.)
I suspect (with zero evidence) that it is significant that people with certain psychological disorders feel compelled to curse at inappropriate times. That desire to curse is a natural part of who we are. It's not just something we made up one day.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Are you intentionally missing the point? We all learn rules that govern polite existence. While some rules may be adhered to more strictly than others, it is still a function of society. The reason that some find cursing offensive is the same reason that whizzing against the tree in a crowded park is offensive, it's part of our learned behaviour.
[ February 17, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
You belong to two different sub-cultures. One has given F*** and offensive meaning, the other mearly uses as an exclamation point. Both groups assignment is arbitrary as the definition of every word is arbitrary.
If you had no idea that there was another commonly accepted us for F*** and you let it fly in front of your grandmother, then it would be irrational for her to take offense. But you do know that many people define the word in an offensive way, so it is irrational of you to use it around those people when you mean no offense.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: If someone were to loudly and crudely talk about your mother, no intent to offend you, would you object? Why?
I would absolutely not be offended. I could not give a rats ass if you called my mother the town bycicle, if you didn't mean it offensively.
Even if you did it wouldn't phase me as it isn't true.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: One way to express crass emotion is to get up into someone's face and go "AAAAAAAAAAAAGHBLABLABLABLABLABLAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!" and then hit them with a rock.
Oh, that was Laugh-Out-Loud-Good.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I'm so tired of repeating myself.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
Why did you start the thread if you were not willing to defend your position? Michelle
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jebus, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Though I strongly suspect that as you get older your opinions on this will change.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:But other than that, and the possibility of offending other people, I see no reason why not to.
But the entire point using language at all, it to communicate. You are saying that it is irrational for people to understand a word in any other sense than you used it, even when that word has a widely accept different meaning.
If I suddenly decided that I found the word "hair" to be offensive, that would be irrational. But most curse words have been widely used in an offensive manner for decades if not generations. It is irrational for you to expect the rest of society to accept your subcultures redefinition of the word.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Once again, Geoff comes in and in one post more effectively says what I've been trying to say in a dozen posts.
So, for Geoff, for me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: But how is it being impolite to say: "I ****ing hate milk"?
It's impolite in the same way that wearing a hat in church is impolite. It's a tradition that has logical roots but which is largely arbitrary in the modern era.
However, despite its lingering arbitrariness, it's still considered impolite enough that people can't do it without seeming impolite, even if they'd like to insist otherwise.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Anti, if it makes you feel better, that's what Dagonee and David Bowles are CONSTANTLY doing to me Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Actually, that does make me feel better. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I'd well better go to bed now.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote: You belong to two different sub-cultures. One has given F*** and offensive meaning, the other mearly uses as an exclamation point. Both groups assignment is arbitrary as the definition of every word is arbitrary.
If you had no idea that there was another commonly accepted us for F*** and you let it fly in front of your grandmother, then it would be irrational for her to take offense. But you do know that many people define the word in an offensive way, so it is irrational of you to use it around those people when you mean no offense.
Good point. But, I believe most people nowadays, having watched plenty of movies and what not, should be able to understand that many other people use curse words with no intended insult. So why is the responsibility on one sub-culture to be more understanding of another?
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
It is acceptable to use the word phuq in films. And yt, you'll notice that if anyone calls the judge a phuquing idiot, he or she won't make it out of jail.
I like to put it this way: [Almost] everybody swears, but not in public. It's simply a sort of artificial manner; also on this forum it happens.
If you want a 'phuqued up' metaphor, it's like the Cold War. The US and Russia were supposed to be officially at war (NATO vs Warsaw Pact), but a certain level of peace was maintained, despite each other knowing the other's intentions.
Say we're neighbours, if I see you in the morning leaving home when I am, and I hate you, I will probably wish you "good morning", and you will reply politely, despite me wanting to wish you to "go roll down the phuquing stairs, you scheety, old, damn bastard". You would probably wish my head be rammed up a prostitute's arse by the same token, but you wouldn't say it.
It's called politeness, it's what we use to act nicely to each other. You don't say everything you think, nor do I. If the same concept maintained peace for 50 years, we can maintain peace for 50 years by not swearing and insulting each other needlessly, jumping to conclusions as we swear aimlessly.
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
for Geoff, ![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
for me.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
well better go to bed now.