I'm a vegetarian, the only in my family, and they're always pestering me to eat more protein.
But I always thought that the ribosomes of the body could make their own proteins from the amino acids via transcription/translation.
"Amino acids are the building blocks (monomers) of proteins. 20 different amino acids are used to synthesize proteins. The shape and other properties of each protein is dictated by the precise sequence of amino acids in it."
So is what I really need to be a healthy fellow a good source of each of the 20 amino acids? Or can the body synthesize the amino acids out of something else?
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
There are a certain number of amino acids that the body cannot synthesize on its own. Sorry, it's been a while since I took Biochem, but you can find out what they are by doing a search for "essential amino acids". You should also be able to find lists of foods that are high in those amino acids.
You will have to be creative and mix your protein sources if you choose not to eat meat, but you can stay healthy if you're careful.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Okay, I looked it up. There are 8 essential amino acids - 20 aas in all. The essential ones for adults are tryptophan, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, valine, leucine and isoleucine. (I used to be able to draw all of those... ah memories. )
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You eat proteins. Your digestive system breaks them down into amino acids, which are absorbed into the bloodstream. In the cells, amino acids are re-strung together, forming new proteins.
Some amino acids can be made by the human body from "scratch"; eight can not. More here. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
mb, I used to be able to draw the darn things too! (Thanks to carrying around flashcards in my purse for six solid weeks. )
Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
quote:There are a certain number of amino acids that the body cannot synthesize on its own... You will have to be creative and mix your protein sources if you choose not to eat meat, but you can stay healthy if you're careful.
Maui is right, you need some amino acids in your diet that your body cannot make.
I have heard from a good friend who is vegetarian that many cultures' staple diets contain "complementary" foods that have different amino acids and allow for a balanced diet, including sufficient protein and amino acids, with little or no meat. The only example I can think of is rice and beans, but their are others.
It takes a little more effort to balance your diet with out meat, but after a while it'll be second nature.
I'll ask my little sister, she's been vegetarian for years and knows about it.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I think Bob the Lawyer is vegan. I bet if you made the title more descriptive of what you're looking for (Protein for Vegetarians, for example, or Hey Bob the Lawyer!) he'd come in and give some good practical advice.
Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
...or I'll just wait 5 minutes till maui and rivka post more.
Hey, rivka, I tried to call you Sunday from WenchCon but your number changed, and I didn't have much time to e-mail you--sorry.
Also, I just downloaded AIM again, my new screen name is Bold Berthold.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
BtL and I had a conversation elsewhere (sakeriver, maybe?) about vegan protein sources elsewhere. He told me that the notion that complementary proteins must be eaten at the same meal (which is what I was taught, repeatedly) has been disproved. (Here's an article which echoes that.)
Since he's not only a vegan but a biochemist, I figure he would know!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oops! Did I neglect to give you my current number? My bad.
AIM . . . I get on there every so often . . . Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
...or I'll just not post about stuff I know little about. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Morbo, it's what I was taught too! In upper-division biochem classes, no less.
Good thing "new research" trumps "everyone has known for decades." Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
It's curious that humans have lost the ability to synthesize some amino acids from scratch that other mammals can produce. An evolutionary luxury of sitting atop the food-chain?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'd still go for the complementary proteins; it makes for a more filling and healthier diet anyway, in my experience. At least try to eat them within a few hours of each other.
quote: The only example I can think of is rice and beans, but their are others.
Beans and squash, beans and corn (including corn tortillas), lentils and rice (although I think lentils are complete on their own, rice just boosts the overall protein intake), peas and corn... Generally try to mix a legume with rice, corn, wheat, spelt, or squash, and you're good.
Edit: Sorry, rivka... It was very late...
[ March 17, 2005, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
alluvion, many mammals can synthesize things we cannot, and we can synthesize things many mammals can't. (Cats synthesize their own vitamin C.) It all has to do with what we're all specialized to eat, that's all.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Likely from being omnivorous for a long time before becoming protohumans, let alone humans sitting at the top of the food chain.
If its normal diet supplies an organism with certain amino acids often enough that ingestion&digestion provides a sufficient supply for survival&reproduction, then the organism no longer needs the ability to synthesize those same amino acids. If there is no survival&reproduction value in retaining the metabolic pathways for synthesis of those same amino acids, then the genes which create&control those metabolic pathways no longer need to be conserved. ie Gene mutations which affect those particular metabolic pathways but also don't otherwise harm the organism can accumulate until those particular metabolic pathways shut down, no longer exist, or are adapted into a form which performs a different function.
Similarly, other complex nutrients such as vitamins.
[ March 16, 2005, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I wouldn't consider myself a vegetarian, because I have no problem eating meat and quite enjoy it. However, I'm married to a vegetarian who treats it like keeping kosher, so it's much more convenient for me if I don't have meat often. Otherwise I have to brush my teeth every time I want to kiss him.
I do keep an eye on my protein sources, especially since my body was used to getting chicken and beef on a regular basis. I buy soy crackers, use a lot of tofu and other meat-like stuff when I'm cooking, and choose veggies like artichoke hearts that contain protein. Mmmmmm. There's 18 grams of protein in one bag of soy crisps that I like to eat, and that's just a snack. It's not too difficult if you just keep an eye on it.
And, if I'm really craving something, especially something odd like spinach, I take it seriously.
Mmm. Spinach.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Did anyone mention diet for a small planet yet? Thats kind of the bible on getting your essential amino acids from non animal sources.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Yeah. If I have an egg for breakfast, a bag of soy crisps during the day, and half a block of tofu in a stir fry for dinner, I've met my protein requirement for the day.
Mmmm, I feel like cooking!
Edit: There was a post about eggs right above mine! I swear!
[ March 16, 2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Zeugma ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I erased my post out of respect for your link, Zeugma and because I am too tired to get into an argument with people about the logic behind eating eggs if you're vegetarian.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Ahh. Well, as far as I know, I'm the only person here who's ever really gotten on people's cases about what it means to be a vegetarian, so if I'm not hasslin' you, I doubt anyone else will. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I think you should put in the thread title that this thread is about vegetarianism -- because there are other vegetarians on the forum that could probably help, and don't realize that is what the thread is about, from the title.
FG
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Whole grains and certain green veggies (broccoli, asparagus, spinach) are also complementary proteins.
<---cooked and ate most meals with vegetarian friends for two years without touching a legume.
The New Laurel's Kitchen has a HUGE section on nutrition in a vegetarian diet.
[ March 16, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
Hmm. Thanks for your guys' help.
And also, I don't think I'm ever going to try "Beans on toast" from that site zeugma posted.
[ March 16, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: kaioshin00 ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Beans on toast sounds awful. It's that kind of crap that gets people thinking that vegetarians will be perfectly happy eating only the house salad and a breadstick while everyone else gets prime rib.
One of our current favorite lazy-man's dinners is a pot of timer-cooked rice waiting for us when we get home, with a can or pouch of pre-packaged Indian food dumped on top and mixed in. We have something like 3 or 4 complete lines of pre-packaged Indian entree's available in town, so we get a huge variety of dinners. Mattar paneer, aloo mattar, dal makhani, navratna korma, palak paneer, saag... and about a dozen more. Costs about $4 to feed both of us, and about 2 minutes of work.
Edit: Actually, I just checked the website for one of the brands of pre-packaged food, and we could buy it in bulk with free shipping, and end up spending $2.10 for the entree and $.40 for our rice.... might have to give that a shot!
[ March 16, 2005, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Zeugma ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Zeugma, do you really think it is fair to chide people on their vegetarian ways when you have the Moosewood Restaurant, probably within walking distance?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Leftover baked beans on toast was a farmer's breakfast long before vegetarians thought of it as a protein combination. I mean, really, isn't it just a bean burrito, when you think about it?
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Really? That's where Zeugma lives?
Ooh, can I come visit you? Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
See, I could totally go for a white bean hummus on toast points.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Well, come visit both of us the weekend of April 2 and 3, as that is where I will be! I will bring JaneX.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Rivka is right about the fact that complimentary proteins don't need to be eaten at the same meal. Kaioshin, I honestly wouldn't worry all that much about it - though I understand that's difficult when you have family members breathing down your neck. Most people get a lot of protein in their diets without even trying. I'm a vegetarian and pregnant, and my OB has never once worried over my protein intake.
space opera
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
See, but you're talking baked beans and bean hummus! "Beans on toast" definitely conjures up images of 3 lonely half-cooked kidney beans on a dry piece of toast.
And actually, Elizabeth, you know what almost anyone here would tell you? Moosewood the restaurant isn't nearly as good as Moosewood the cookbooks. Seriously! There are much better places to get a veggie meal in this town, like The ABC Cafe. Mmmmmm!! We've even managed to make picky fast-food-only carnivore friends happy at ABC, they have everything from fries and shakes (both homemade, of course) to Broccoli-Cashew Stir Fry with Tempeh over Cous-Cous!
Okay, I am SO ready for lunch. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Elizabeth, it's going to be really hard deciding what to eat while you're here. Maybe Mark and I will pick up take-out from our top 5 places and create an "Ithaca Sampler" buffet. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
And I am so ready to come to your house for dinner! Have you had New York Pizza in Trumansburg? It is our staple food at Grassroots.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Yeah, they make great pizza!! We used to walk over there all the time when we were living a few blocks away. Also good is Gino's on the Ithaca Commons... They make a peppers 'n onions pizza that's really tasty. Mmm!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I have to e you about the Rongo. I am worried they won't let the kids in. Jennie Stearns tends to get a family crowd, though, even at night.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
While putting soy sauce on my snack just now, I noticed that one tablespoon has 2 grams of protein. So using soy sauce instead of salt in cooking and on food is one easy way to up your protein intake a bit.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Zeugma, the Ithaca sampler sounds great!
Ketchupqueen, I did not know that. How many milligrams of salt, though?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
If I remember aright, there is a particular nutrient that is only found in meats or SEAWEED. So, if you're vegan, make sure you eat plenty of sea vegetables!
And really, do you realize that even vegans eat meat accidentally? Insect pieces and parts are in the vegetable products you eat. Insects are full of nutrients.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
TMI, Jenny, TMI!!!!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Insects are primarily made of (indigestible) chitin. Also, rinsing vegetables thoroughly gets rid of most insect bits. ick!
[grammar/usage geek] Complementary proteins. Complimentary proteins would comment on your lustrous hair. [/geek]
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
What is TMI?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Too much information.
Soy sauce has 980 mg of sodium in 1 Tbsp. Since I usually eat about 1/2 a Tbsp. at a time, at least as a condiment, that's 1 g of protein to 490 mg of sodium.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
What about the squishy bits, rivka? I can vouch for mealworms being very tasty.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Um. Eeeew.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As Ketchup noted, soy is often used as a source of protein for people who don't eat meat. And while I do consume quite a bit of soy sauce, I've never tried claiming it as a protein source.
I'm not a vegetarian and I'm not a trained dietician, but a little Googling will present quite a list of options.
-Trevor
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Let me just add a non-sequiteur here: I hate tempeh. Blech.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ah, forgot about the *shudder* larval forms.
Enjoy, Jenny. Have my share!
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: The only example I can think of is rice and beans, but their are others.
Just because it hasn't been specified, and you can never tell...
We're talking about BROWN rice here, folks.
Also, part of why bread is such an important staple is that as the bread rises, the yeast is synthesizing protein. I'm not sure if it's complete protein though, or how much there is.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*blink* It is? It should be doing anaerobic respiration, turning sugar into CO2, alcohol, and usable energy, neh?
Now, kneading dough causes gluten chains to form, and gluten is a very useful protein.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
According to that science show with Alan Alda it is.
BTW, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
True. Although the respiration would be direct, and any protein synthesis would be indirect, neh?
*mutter* I taught yeast yesterday. You couldn't have told me this Tuesday? Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Wish I had better information for you. But the yeast has to grow a body in addition to energy, after all.
We teach about how plants do photosynthesis and respiration, but when do we explain where cellulose comes from?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*nod* All God's critters -- even itty bitty bacteria -- synthesize proteins. It's the "while bread is rising" part I was having difficulty with. But as the yeasties will be rapidly growing and budding, I imagine they must be doing all kinds of synthesis. It's silly, but I somehow am used to only thinking about the process making the bubbles.
Since cellulose is just chains of glucose, I talk about it the first time when we discuss polymers, and compare starch and cellulose. (And then when we talk about cell walls, and when we talk about nutrition and fiber, and . . .)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: Just because it hasn't been specified, and you can never tell...
We're talking about BROWN rice here, folks.
Actually, beans and white rice together make a complete protein. Brown rice on its own is a more complete protein than white rice, and you get more overall protein if you eat brown rice with beans than white, but it's not necessary to eat brown rice with beans to make a complete protein. Any rice will do. Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I'm searching through the dusty reserves of my mind here, but I'm drawing a blank at this super animal and seaweed nutrient. I mean, it's approaching a decade that I've been vegan and I should totally be in the throes of some disease or another if that were the case, shouldn't I?
Unless people have been slipping meat into my dishes for a long time now. Which would be kind of cool, that they've been able to do it without me noticing for all these years.
Posted by Emily W (Member # 7504) on :
Vitamin B-12 might be a greater concern to vegetarians than protein intake. Vitamin B-12 is only found naturally in animal products. B-12 supplements are added into many vegetarian products and most breakfast cereals, but these supplements are sometimes synthesized from animal products.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Off the top of my head there exists not a single animal that can synthesise its own B12. They get it through a symbiotic relationship with single celled organisms in their intestines. I agree, B12 is probably *the* issue for vegans, and in the past it was probably excruciatingly difficult for them to get it.
But I digress. Animal products are a source of B12 because B12 gets incorporated into their tissues, which you then eat. However, there is an infinitesimal amount of B12 in most meat. Consider that a teaspoon of it will provide ~100 people with all they'll need for their lifetime. The point, then, is that most supplements are harvested from bacteria. Particularly P. shermanii and P. denitrificans. A fact that's important to those vegans that are vegan for ethical reasons. This is because it's much cheaper to have several vats of expendable bacteria growing concentrated B12 than grinding down several tonnes of meat to get enough B12 for a single shipment of vitamin pills.
While we're on the topic, it's important to note that if you're relying on Red Star or Twinlab nutritional yeasts to remember that B12 is light sensitive. If it's stored in clear baggies in the store much of the B12 will have been destroyed and you're not getting what you think you're getting. Store it in the fridge in a dark container.
Also, B12 fortifications help everyone, carnivores and meat eaters alike. B12 is not particularly stable and decomposes at ~120 degrees Celsius (240F) which generally translates to all the B12 being destroyed during the process of cooking your meat.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The yeast ain't there for our benefit, it's there to survive&grow&reproduce. And the survival&growth&reproduction necessitates a synthesis, an increase in proteins used to create those new yeast cells as well as other vitamins and complex nutrients -- which aren't originally present in the flour -- for the purpose of the yeasts' own survival, growth, and reproduction.
Those newly created proteins, vitamins, and other complex nutrients just happen to be stuff that humans also need which either isn't present in flour or at least is there in only a far smaller amounts. And so humans enter into a symbiotic relationship with the yeast. We provide them with transportation to, easier access to the food&water they need. And they provide a better mixture of nutrients, higher quality food for us.
Editing in: Sorry, didn't notice that there was second page before posting. And so, didn't see what was posted here already.
[ March 24, 2005, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
We put Red Star nutritional yeast on our popcorn. Lots of it. Like, we're probably getting too many of these nutrients.
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