A while ago I started this thread about creating a Hatrack debate. I suppose I didn’t get unanimous consent but it was enough to keep me going on the idea. The only reason I haven’t started one yet is difficulty coming up with a good topic. Well I finally decided to just come up with one and let’s get going! So here it is:
quote:Immigration policy
The Rules:
If you wish to participate write a one paragraph summary of your position (doesn’t have to be elegant but say something, you’re not a politician, make a definitive position)
I will pick two participants myself though I will accept input from others.
On the first available date for all three of us, we will begin the debate which will have limits on time and word count.
The format will be: I as the moderator (or perhaps panelists, depending on how many people are interested) ask questions of one debater, and then give a chance for response and then for rebuttal. This will continue for a specific amount of questions (besides being even, I have not yet set this number
All who would like to participate, please post a paragraph (approx.) declaring your position in the most adamant way possible (not necessarily rude, but you’ll be chosen largely on your ability to not share someone else’s opinion). Hobbes
[ March 23, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Here's my rebuttal: . What was the question?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Ya know Mother, those two smilies side-by-side look strangely like a medical exam.
-Trevor
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Hmm, not exactly the response I was envisioning but at least someone said something...
Hobbes Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'll throw my hat into the ring.
I think immigration should be restricted more than it has been in the past. I'm all for letting Mexicans have temporary visas to come into places like California and Florida to do seasonal work, these are jobs most Americans refuse to do, and the Mexicans need the work, so it seems a perfect symbiosis. But this isnt the 1800's when we had free land to give away, and wanted people to tame it, it isn't even the 1920's where we welcomed cheap foreign labor. That worked well enough before labor laws, but this is a different time. We don't have the ability like we did back then to let several million new people in a year, or even a single million, many of whom need extensive training to get used to the US, and especially the language barrier that many seem to have.
I do believe that some should be allowed in, a mix of scientists and academics to keep America at the forefront of R&D, and a certain amount of poor from Africa and Southeast Asia. But other than that I think we should stop creating a further drag on society. America is far too riddled with its own problems that for too long now we as a society have been ignoring, quietly brushing them under the rug.
America needs to clean house, fix itself up. Maybe in twenty years we'll be prepared to handle a larger influx of immigrants, but a temporary cutback needs to be instituted, and now.
[ March 23, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I think immigration restrictions are only necessitated because of socialistic programs such as unemployment and MedicAid. That is, there would be no fear of immigrants straining our social resources if we did not have social resources. I'm not saying to get rid of the social resources, I'm just saying the left needs to own up to their role in creating the immigration crisis. We don't need tons of land to allow unlimited immigration. But if we are to take care of our own, some limitation of immigration is necessary. However, I think increased immigration is going to be crucial to overcoming the social security crisis. One way to make up for a baby bust is to allow working adults into the workforce. Since we didn't have to pay for their upbringing and education, funding will probably be required for adult education, especially to teach them English. When an adult worker enters the US, do you realize how much money we save? The downside is we are creaming some of the most ambitions people from our neighbor to the south.
Well, I held that to one paragraph. Sorry it rambles quite a bit.
Edited because something I wrote troubled my spouse.
[ April 01, 2005, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I love the idea of the Great Hatrack Debate, but I don't have very strong feelings about this issue. Guess I'll just sit back and watch this one.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'm prepared to debate in favor of immigration froma purely culinary standpoint.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Give me your unagi, your pho, your hand rolled crepes yearning to be free. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Can I respond to mothertree? or should I wait and see who is in the actual debate?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Wait..this isn't a normal thread with a back and forth...this is a one paragraph audition, sort of...right Hobbes? Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Ah, Beren - I do so love your sense of humor and timing.
Y'know - you stop immigration, some middle class white folks might have to start picking asparagus, operating dry cleaning facilities, and keep the all-night corner stores open.
[ March 24, 2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Kwea is right, save the debate for later please.
Hobbes Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Hobbes, I want to try this, so hold off on selection for a while, please?
-Bok
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Hobbes, I'd love to participate in a Great Hatrack Debate, just not this one. (I have no strong feelings on the topic.)
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Sure Bok, no problemo. I haven't set a defnite date, just for everyone as soon as you can, but don't worry about getting it in by the weekend or anything.
Karl, thanks for your support, it means a lot.
It does!
Hobbes Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Isn't it more interesting if you don't have strong feelings on the topic? Are your feelings not really strong or are they just sort of conflicted? Or am I getting to conversant here?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Anyone who wants to debate is welcome to enter, strong feelings or no, but I think it's more likely that someone with strong feelings will make a more impassioned case for their side.
Hobbes Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I really want to see this happen, but I don't feel up to the task of participating.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
From a Canadian stand point I am all for immigration on a 100 point system. Where if you get 60 you pass and can live in Canada. Here's an example:
Do you have children?: 5 Points Yes [ ] No [ ] Other [ ]: list comment Do you have any dieseses?: 5 Points Yes [ ] No [ ] Other [ ]: list comment Can you speak english??: 15 Points Yes [ ] No [ ] Other [ ]: list comment Do you have a university degree?: 5 Points Yes [ ] No [ ] Other [ ]: list comment Can you speak french?: 10 Points Yes [ ] No [ ] Are you computer literate?: 5 Points Yes[ ] No [ ] Will you be having children? 10 Points Yes [ ] No [ ]
Okay thats only 55 points but you get the idea right? For us Canadians being one of the most under populated countries in the world we only lack the propler beuracracy to allow all of those who want to come. So ya... Maybe I shouldn't join in being canadian...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*blink* I know about the Canadian point system. But I didn't think you got points for having diseases! How does that make any sense?
And since when does having children show up on the list?
And I feel rather strongly about this, but then I have strong feelings about pretty much everything.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
Ya, -5 points if you have some kind of diesese. But ya this largely makes sense in Canada becuase we have ALOT OF FREAKIN SPACE and the point system is meant to filter in those who contribute best to society in the long and short run. America I'm not sure has alot of space as well just not obvious sence you guys are all spread out.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
*bump*
Hobbes Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
So what's up with this?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'm hoping a few more people post, but most likely after general confrence we'll begin.
Hobbes Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So you'll announce the debaters in a couple days?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Most likely yes, though if someone still wants a little time to put in their 2 cents I'm willing to extend.
Hobbes Posted by Taberah (Member # 4014) on :
I'm not sure if I can afford the time or effort to engage in a serious debate (I'm not around here much anyway), but I'll chip in a paragraph nonetheless.
Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door. - Emma Lazarus
It seems that most Americans have forgotten these words, though they have been bravely enthroned at the base of the Statue of Liberty these many years. We somehow ignore the fact that we are a nation of immigrants, that our ancestors arrived bearing hopes and fears almost identical to those borne by scorned Cuban refugees and Mexican "wetbacks." Somehow, it's okay that we seek a stable lifestyle and plentiful opportunities, but criminal that they should do so. Awash in prosperity, our hearts have grown cold. There are certainly practical aspects of immigration which merit careful discussion. Benefits, medical care, the simple matter of space--they all defy the buoyancy of idealism. Even so, I cannot fault these tired and poor for risking everything to gain the blessings which I now enjoy. These pilgrims may be homeless and tempest-tossed, but if we close the golden door our solitude will be dark and wretched indeed.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
(Unless otherwise specified, I'm going to not include you in the running to be in the debate because of you're opening sentence there, if you want to be included though that's great. And I appreciate the paragraph. )
Hobbes Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Wow, bonus smiley. Props to Taberah.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
quote: But this isnt the 1800's when we had free land to give away, and wanted people to tame it
*jaw drops*
how about this for a paragraph:
500 years ago when we allowed unrestricted immigration look what happened. They came, and didn't know how to take care of themselves, so we fed them and taught them how to work the land. In return for our generosity, they... demanded MORE, and demanded that we turn to their religion. Some of us did. Those who didn't were often harassed, and often tortured either until we complied or until we died. It ended up, even the ones who were converted weren't safe either. As they drove us from our lands, further and further West, even those they deemed "civilized" were forced on the long deadly marches as well. Their population grew exponentially as ours shrunk. We had no resistence to their diseases, bourn of the unclean overcrowded living conditions they were used to. They even distributed disease ridden blankets to make us die faster. At some point they encouraged people to move into our areas again, calling it "free land to give away." Finally we were put in areas called "reservations" where for awhile we weren't allowed to leave without permission of a "gaurdian" unless of course they needed us as cheap labor or cannon fodder in wars. Now, we are coming back. We will never be the Many Nations we once were, but we are coming back, strong and proud. aside: Once a man named Adolph Hitler studied what happened to us at length to come up with his own plan. He thought it was a good idea, only instead of "reservations" he dubbed his areas first the traditional name "ghettos" and then just camps. But that is another story. (back to the point) But that's what started 500 years with unrestricted immigration, and lots of "free land to give away."
BTW I don't want to be in the debate.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
All migrant workers should be documented as they come across the border, and there should be incentives for those who participate in the documentation process.
There is work here for migrant workers to do that nobody else seems willing to do.
Our border is too vast to prevent migrant workers from crossing at will.
By denying those migrant workers the proper credentials to work in the U.S. we are creating a class of law-breakers and children of law-breakers. This may instill in our guests a feeling that they are on the wrong side of the law, and they may feel that other laws do not apply to them as well. (Witness the number of immigrant families who pack themselves into single-family units, thus violating zoning laws. Our guests also frequently drive without driver's licenses, without liability insurance, and without vehicle safety inspection as required by law.)
Classifying our guests as law-abiders will instill in the minds of our guests a desire to know the laws and to obey them, and it will instill in the minds of U.S. citizens the notion that these people belong here and are just as good as ourselves.
So open the borders; let the migrant workers in; document them, and make them legal.
[ April 01, 2005, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: skillery ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm sorry, did I offend you?
I wasn't advocating the genocide of American Indians or the Holocaust. I understand how you could misconstrue "free land to give away" as ignorance of that free land not really being America's, and for that matter not free. And that "tame it" counts as killing American Indians. I apologize for a poor choice of words, but that isn't what I was talking about. I was referring to American immigration policy of the 19th century and what I feel it should be for the 21st century.
I can't really apologize for what happened in the past, my family wasn't here for it, at least not in the USA, we were in France, and then later in Quebec until about 1905, so I don't feel I should have to apologize for it.
Again though, I apologize for a poor choice of words, but that isn't what I meant.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
I am sorry. That is one of the things I tend to be sensitive (OK oversensitive) about. Maybe it is related to growing up as only one of 3 American Indians in the school system and all of maybe 10 in the whole 20,000 pop. town.
I am sorry I overreacted. (terribly embarrassed, I think I'd better leave Hatrack for good as I don't think I can show my handle again and not be totally ashamed of my blowup)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You didn't overreact that badly. Hell, go to the Star Wars thread, you'll see I've gotten that worked up over something that doesn't really even matter.
This matters, and I'm glad you corrected me. I should have chosen my words more carefully, and been more respectful.
Forgive this ignorant white French Canadian American?
My apologies again,
Lyrhawn (Adam)
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Uhhh...mimsies, if hatrack was the kind of place you had to leave after a blowup it would be a very lonely place.
We've all had blowups, we've all had embarrassing moment. Not long ago, my ignorance of Catholicism caused me to put my foot in my mouth, when someone mentioned a papal bull and I didn't realize what it was and thought they were being ugly.
So see - you're not the only one to say something they regretted later.
Forget about it - come and play. Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
mimsies, I thought your comments were okay. I hope we're not getting into the actual debate too much. This is meta-debate.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
I dunno, Star Wars is pretty important! I saw it first run when I was 4 yrs old, and have never forgotten it (I'm dating myself).
Anyway, nice to meet you, I'm Mimi. Sorry to have jumped on your case. Thanks for such a compassionate and understanding reply.
-Mimi
edit: That thanks goes for all of you who've responded!
Now Back To Our Regularly Scheduled Thread
[ April 01, 2005, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: mimsies ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I was six. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: There is work here for migrant workers to do that nobody else seems willing to do.
Well, for next to nothing, anyway.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Guys! Let's remember that this thread is not a debate thread nor a discussion thread. The purpose of this thread is to submit applications for the Great Hatrack Debate. Not that there is anything wrong with debating or discussing this, but it would probably be better to do it in another thread. Posted by LTC DuBois (Member # 7661) on :
Aside from a few exceptions, everyone living in America is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants (I certainly mean no disrespect to the indigenous people). How can we put severe restrictions on immigration, when many of us are descended from poor, uneducated people that didn't speak English themselves? America depends on immigrants not only to do our menial labor but also to fill our science and engineering departments at most of our universities. Let's not sacrifice our economic future simply because some people who want in are undesirable.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
I think some people ight be afraid I'll jump all over THEIR cases now! eek!
Posted by Taberah (Member # 4014) on :
Hobbes- I always enjoy a good debate, but it would be unwise for me to broaden my obligations. Good luck with the dialogue.
Posted by LTC DuBois (Member # 7661) on :
Not really, I was simply trying to be sensitive to your feelings (and anyone else who reads this forum who's Native American), but perhaps my words had an unintended effect.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
American immigration policy, given the hindsight of our collective history, and our professed support for cherished and foundational national principles, should be one of continuous and determined loosening of restrictions. Our history has shown that just as often as not, immigration restrictions were used to enforce bigotry, whether, religious, racial, or simply due to the country of one's birth. Our principles are bolstered by more open immigration policies; restrictions explicitly limit the freedom a person has to be self-determined, and are due to our own conscious (either directly, or through our representatives in government) decisions to keep them out. Furthermore, if we are determined to profess our continuing support of capitalism as a system that provides freedom to the most, we cannot be blind to our hypocrisy of purposefully regulating the most important resource available to capitalism: people.
This all being said, we cannot just strip away our historical inheritance on this issue, thinking that opening the borders to all will solve all problems. Instead it must be a consistent, conscious, determined effort to ease any barriers in place, to be mindful that the end goal is to extend freedom, which requires on all our part a fearless extension of our freedom.
-Bok
[ April 01, 2005, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
What happened to this thread?
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
It was eaten by a large walrus bent on destruction.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Actually, I was going to start tomorrow. Still am actually, but thanks for the bump. (People can still submit now if they want, but quick-quick like bunnies ).
Hobbes Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
walruses think bunnies are tasty
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
The invitations have been sent out, the schedule will be set dependent on the participants (if you volunteered but don't check your e-mail often, please do so now, or alert me some way).
If anyone has any questions they'd like to ask in the debate, please e-mail me (don't post it or I can't use it!)
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Thanks to everyone who volunteered, if you weren't picked, try again! It's not you, it's me.
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
If your name is Bok, you should check your e-mail or e-mail me right now.
Hobbes Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
My free time is in the evenings during the week, and parts of weekend days. Work and wedding planning take up most of the rest of the time.
-Bok
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I guess I wasn't chosen :sniff:
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Sorry Mothertree
We can argue about something else just for fun if you want. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
If this goes well, it wont be the last one...
Sorry Pooka, I had to choose two, that means I had to not choose others.
Hobbes Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
What happened to this?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
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. What was the question?
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