I just thought that this needed covered. I really didn't want to comment in the made for Atheist Thread out of respect, although I had wanted to because I have problems with much of what they said. That shouldn't be surprising. So, if anyone wants to comment about their comments, feel free to say something here. As for those athiests who would like to comment about something here, they can do so over there.
That way, the inevitable hijacking of one side vs. the other in disagreements matches won't happen as easily.
Why we believe in a higher power.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started.
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring?
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
How we feel about life (death is covered in another threadnicely)
How we feel about other religions or no-religion.
[ March 23, 2005, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Wow, this is pathetic. We should make a thread so you and KOM can do your thing together.
[ March 23, 2005, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:Why believe higher power
and
quote:if we didn't, why do we now
I started out very young believing in God. About my teenage years I became somewhat agnostic with my views. Not that it was a conscious choice, as much as it just happened. My life wasn't going very well. My peers picked on me. Grades were lousy. I just drifted away from have a care.
Eventually it got to where I was not sure of anything. There was nothing I could do, it seemed. Suicide was a possible choice, although not the only one. Morally I made major descisions out of religious teachings. There was no reason to rebel, because all the rebels were my enemies. Eventually, this minor friend of mine heard me express my concerns. He told me to read the Book of Mormon (something I had not seriously done without my family).
I took up the suggestion and decided to read it clear through. I did the whole praying if it was true and everything. Two things happened. First, there was no burning of my bosom manefestation of the Spirit. There was, however, a difference in my perspective. I had found something I could live; a set of moral guides that seemed to coincide with a more positive experience with life. This got me to read the Bible (particularly the New Testament) that once again helped me to both cope with and understand who I was as a human. The second thing that happened was that eventually I DID have some tremendous spiritual manifestations of the heart. I was pondering over what I had learned in the scriptures and suddenly I became tremendously joyous. There was nothing I couldn't handle. This lasted in spurts for about a week's time. It is from this that I went from thinking "this is good" to "this is true," and have been that way ever since. My intense feelings were short lived, to be sure. I have felt that way only during about two other times; although not as intense. However, for me there is no denying that, along with a change in my life, the feelings came from outside of my person.
Another reason I believe is that my prayers have been answered. Perhaps not when or how I want them to, but eventually they do come close.
quote:from what sources does understanding of my faith spring
I would say almost all of it from Joseph Smith. Even the way I read the Bible comes from his ideas and revelations. Surprising, or not, Brigham Young isn't much of an influence on my spiritual and theological understanding. The other two people who have influenced me the most are Hugh Nibley and Elder Bruce R. McConkie. For non-LDS it would be hard to describe them as most wouldn't understand my explanations. Neither of them are theologins in the traditional sense of the word (as most Mormons aren't).
quote:Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
They seem as set in their beliefs as people of faith are in God. To be brief, I don't trust them. No matter how much they say they have morals (or a conscience) it seems tenuous and thin. Some really do I am sure, but most talk as if they have a tremendous chip on their shoulders. In the end I trust those who say they don't have morals more than I do those who say they do. Usually this is because those who say they do tend to be trying to prove something and come off as morally superior. On the other hand, those who say they don't usually are a lot more upfront about motives and feelings. Still, they can be jerks of another class. Nothing to hide can also mean nothing to hold them back.
I'll save the other questions for later.
[ March 23, 2005, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think the other thread was created because in the course of Hatrack there has been an abundance of Believer Threads. Nonbeliever threads, not so much. I have enjoyed hearing their perspectives and stories. Everyone looks at things in such a unique way.
So, while I don't feel a particular need to have a Believer Thread to "balance things out" I don't have a problem with it either. Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Can someone point out the "Believer Threads" to me? I know of maybe two or three, but the rest are probably what you would have to call posts with believers commenting.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I should hold back a bit... But, I have observed that quite a few, not all, but a few religious folks seem, to me, to have misplaced morals. Or, to focus on the wrong things as immoral while ignoring the more important issues. Irg. *shuts up now*
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Occasional, there may be some truth to that. But still, it seems like there are a lot more threads discussing religious beliefs rather than threads about those who do not believe in God. This isn't suprising, though. There isn't as much to talk about on the latter subject. I've actually been surprised that there has been as much response in that thread as there has been.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Well, I suppose those who think its "pathetic" can simply ignore this thread. You aren't seeing ME jumping into the agnostic/athiest thread. I guess for those who don't like what I have done (or don't like me) you can see this as a way to "vent" without bothering YOU.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Synesthesia, I think that is an issue of people having different morals and disagreeing with each other. You and Occasional probably feel similarly. You each look at "the other side" and perceive misplaced morals. Both of you believe that your morals are spot-on and the other side is, well, misguided. I'm sure most of us feel that way. If we didn't think we were right, why would we think as we do?
It would be nice to think "everyone can have whatever morals works for them." Unfortunately, that only works until those morality systems start infringing on each other, which they are bound to do. Until then, we all try to live peacably together. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's just there is a particular issue. it needs to be addressed. SOMETHING needs to be done about it and, as you can see from the news, the increase of violence in school, nothing is being done. At least not enough. But, all this time, this energy is spent looking at the WRONG THING... when these kids are going through this... It's not right.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Synesthesia, you are using vague enough words that it is difficult to know what you are talking about. But I do know that there is one topic you feel more passionately about than any other. So I am guessing that is it.
And I doubt any of the believers here advocate violence or cruelty of any kind. I constantly feel that, if you are not preaching to the choir, you are at least preaching to the people who occasionally come to choir. Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
I think these are good questions. I'll try to answer at least a couple for now.
quote: Why we believe in a higher power.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started.
I've been going to church my whole life. It's hard to imagine what my life would have been like if I wasn't a church-goer. But I know that going to church and being a believer are not the same.
I don't recall ever having a big moment of realization that God exists, and that I believe. I also don't recall ever seriously doubting the presence of God in my life. I think it started out, when I was a kid, that church was just something we did and I saw it as something good. As I got older, I learned what it means to be a believer, but I never made a sudden conscious decision to believe. If anything, it was more of a decision not to be a non-believer, if that makes any sense. I saw both non-believers and believers around me, and I saw how they lived their lives, and I didn't like the way the non-believers acted. I didn't want to be one of them. So there was never a question in my mind about being a believer.
As I got older still, like high school years, I learned more and more about the difference between being a believer and living a Christian life. It's not just going to church and not swearing and not being mean to people. It's taking lessons from the Bible and applying them to life. The more I learn, the closer I get to God, and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Also, as I get older, I notice God more in my life. He knows what's best for me, and leads me down the right path, even if it's something that I don't really want to do. He answers my prayers, often in ways that I had never thought of. He does miraculous things.
I guess that's pretty much my faith journey up to now.
quote: From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring?
I'm not sure how specific you want me to be. Of course, my understanding comes from the Bible. But other things help as well. Church, Sunday School, Youth Group, talking with other Christians. One thing that has helped me a great deal is Camp Christian. I went for a week every summer through junior high and high school. It was a great place for fellowship and learning. And I got to meet a lot of people who set good examples for me. It was a place that I felt understood and open.
Something else kind of unique helped me on my faith journey. It was probably around eighth or ninth grade that I read the Christy Miller series by Robin Jones Gunn. At that time in my life, I was starting to make my faith my own. It was no longer just my parents' religion that I was participating in. I started to develop my own relationship with Jesus Christ. These books helped me a lot because they were about a girl, about my age, going through the exact same thing. I related to her feelings and what she was going through.
Well, I think I've talked enough for now. Sorry if I bored anyone.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Now that I'm reminded that there are people like Occasional on this forum, I'm very sorry that I actually opened up and was honest on the other thread.
I was so careful to be respectful, as I knew people of faith would be reading my posts. I'm sorry that I came here expecting the same only to read about people like myself having "tenuous and thin" morality.
Taught me a lesson, that's for certain.
space opera
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
The church to which I belong frequently makes sure that every family has a copy of pamphlets about spousal and child abuse. I have never once seen them pass out pamphlets about homosexuality. Honestly, it really doesn't get that much mention. If anything gets mentioned a lot, it is pornography. I am sorry that this has been a problem in some other denominations. I wonder how wide-spread it actually is.
*honestly doesn't know*
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Actually, I like this thread. There are other threads discussing specific aspects of religion. But all too often we discuss religion in light of particularly charged contexts, such as debates over right to die, abortion, gay marriage, who should play Ender, etc.
I would like to read about the personal beliefs of the my fellow Hatrackers in a more neutral context. I know I greatly enjoyed rivka's thread about Judaism.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
((((Space Opera))))
If Hatrack has taught me anything, it is that some of the best humans on the planet don't believe in God.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Thank you HesterGray. That is more like what I am looking for.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: who should play Ender, etc.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I actually like this thread too. It'd be nice to learn where someone is coming from without the usual us-against-them mentality that usually filters into religious conversations. If there's one thing the thread doesn't need, it's Synth's angry ranting. Not to invalidate the feelings, but those ideas can be explored in another thread without damaging this one.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
S.O., I am sorry that you had to get defensive. I knew it would tick off those who are atheists, but it is also the way I feel. I must also admit that atheism automatically offends me. Too many who claim that title treat religious people with "polite like you would an ignorant child" kind of respect.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*aighs in frustration* Which is the very reason why I wanted to hold back in the first place...
I also wanted to... write about some thoughts on Jesus... nevermind....
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Why we believe in a higher power.
I became converted to my faith at a very young age. It was stories like "My Turn on Earth" that hit me so deeply (both the story and the musical) it wasn't just the idea of God, but particularly the Latter-day Saint "Plan of Salvation" with it's pre-earth life, eternal families, and chances to learn and accept the gospel in the next life. The LDS scriptures meshed so beautifully with the Bible and made so much more sense to me than just the Bible alone. Everything felt right, symmetrical, fraught with purpose, balanced, beautiful. I am in awe of it constantly. Because of how much it appeals to me and the sense of purpose it gives my life, I would feel lost if I were to lose that faith.
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring?
Pretty much answered in the first question. Except, I will add that I feel by following the tenets of my faith, I have been led into paths that have brought me far more happiness than if I had followed different paths, the ones I natuarlly would have walked in without my faith. I am deeply grateful for that.
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
It is no secret that I enjoy discussing religion with others. Intensely so. But I am often hurt or confused by people who are closeminded on the subject, narrowminded, or otherwise bitter or unwilling to discuss it. There aren't many things I enjoy more than discussing religion.
How we feel about life (death is covered in another threadnicely)
I feel that I am here to learn, to experience, and to see what I become with my free agency and the circumstances I encounter. I believe that the life after this one will be an extension of that process. I have hope that God will be merciful with me, but I also believe I am accountable for my mistakes and sins. I am constantly striving to be better, though perhaps not as much as I believe I ought to.
How we feel about other religions or no-religion.
Hatrack has been a profound education on the subject. I find that IRL people aren't as willing to discuss ideas so close to the heart. There is something about the anonymity and the general civility and warmth of Hatrack that engenders such beautiful discussions on a variety of subjects, religion being one of them. I feel I am so much more aware now of how people think differently than me. I really treasure that. I just like to understand people.
[ March 23, 2005, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Synestasia, it makes me laugh how often I see you, in effect, go "I probably shouldn't comment, but I'll go ahead and do it anyway...".
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
It's not about holding back, Synth, it's about where it's appropriate to speak. By all means, if something lights a fire under you start a thread about it. Delve into the issue, explore it, get beyond "they're so stupid and it makes me mad" and get into the whys, wherefores and whatsits.
It's just that this thread has great potential for community building and to air stories that wouldn't otherwise be told. To be honest, I don't think presenting your ideas here adds anything and I don't think they lose anything by being taken to another thread.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Right, but how much of that is them and how much of that is you, as you have just admitted a bias against them now?
Not that you don't have a point....but it is as wrong to paint all atheists with the same brush as it is to paint all religious people as social conservatives who are cruel to others out of spite.
Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
I want to answer the other questions, but I have a cold and I should go to bed. Perhaps tomorrow, when I get a chance.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Thank you Bev. I think this thing might start going in the direction I intended.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I'm glad Occasional didn't pull his punches. If that is really the way he feels, I want to hear it. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Occasional, I want to clarify - parts of your earlier post didn't make me defensive, they made me sad. I would find it sad if you made the same comments like "I don't trust them" about any group, not just one I happen to belong to. That's enough said, I think.
space opera
edit: Bev, as always, nice post. I think posts like the ones you made are the ones that really open up conversations.
[ March 23, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Then we are even. The way that atheists treat religious people makes me sad. Sometimes, admittedly, angry.
[ March 23, 2005, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
You know, I wouldn't have any problem with this thread if it were started as just a mirror reflection of the other, but it wasn't. But starting a thread to, in part, start arguments about a community building thread in which people were openly sharing sensitive things because you get offended when people don't believe the same thing you do is as I said, in my opinion, pathetic.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Occasional, its my understanding that Mormons do not believe morality comes from God, but that morality is a property of the universe. As many atheists hold similar beliefs, just without any god in the picture, I find it amusing you reject their morality.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I can understand that, and I'm sincerely glad that you edited that post, since it's not about getting even, right? I'm sure this thread will give everyone a lot to think about.
space opera
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I didn't say non-existant even if I did say tenuous and thin. I guess it goes back to what Bev. said. What I consider "moral" isn't what I hear a lot of atheists saying is "moral." Sure, there are issues of murder, stealing, and a number of other things that are probably similar. However, how we deal with those moral questions or to what degree they might exist and under what circumstances is usually vastly different.
[ March 24, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Why we believe in a higher power.
Because my ability to believe in solipsism has been shattered. Also I was brainwashed. No, really. The experience(s) that shattered it might be explained by almost any number of faiths, but growing up in the religious environment I did left only a very narrow range of explanations open to me.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started.
n/a
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring?
I went to a private non-denominational (but predominantly Protestant) Christian school from grades 3 through 8. I learned a bit of theology there. Additionally, I was quite active in my church youth group in middle and high school, and did a fair amount of Bible Study. Secular concepts have also influenced my beliefs and reactions to established doctrines.
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
The reason I want to be only so close to God as is necessary to avoid burning for all eternity. I know a few non-believers who are much better people than most if not all believers. I tend to get along with them far better than most true believers. It is not a very uplifting experience to hear that I was the one religious person that kept them from writing off the entire group as a lot of self-righteous bullies. Other non-believers were those hypocrites present in every congregation.
How we feel about life/
Well, according to the faith I had developed before I fell into iniquity (stopped going to church every Sunday), I have my get-out-of-hell-free card. Therefore, I suppose for me personally life is fun enough, although I still hold my creation against God. Sure, I was lucky enough to have the capacity for a faith however reluctant, but others were not. Neither I nor they asked to exist, and only a sadist would send someone to hell for something that was not their fault.
Ever since I understood the concept of heaven, I always wondered why Christians did not commit suicide if it was so great. The spread the word to unbelievers answer was a cop-out, but I was smart enough to know the reception that question would get if I asked anyone who could give me a better one. I feel sorry for unbelievers, because there is not so much beauty in this world as to make it worth the flames.
How we feel about other religions or no-religion.
Sucks to be them, apparently. As nice or nicer than believers, though. I know I am going to miss a few of them when I or they die. In my "nobler" moments I wish I could trade places with them for eternity, but realistically I am too selfish even if I had the option.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:A source of hope for people afraid of nonexistence.
quote:An urgent and irrational need to plead with thunderstorms.
quote:I'm also deeply, deeply suspicious -- and jealous -- of people who say they've had some kind of personal connection to the divine, and it's possible to enrage me by listing off all the prosaic "miracles"
quote:I think it can be a crutch for weak people.
quote:But i think it does a lot of bad, and i think it twists the way people view the world...gives it trimmings that aren't really there.
I understand this is taken out of context. However, I find these comments offensive as much as what I might have said.
[ March 24, 2005, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
You know, I agree that the above statements can be seen as offensive. But I like it sometimes when we open up with each other and say what we are really thinking and feeling. Kinda like when you ask a good friend to tell you "what you are doing wrong". Normally, what they would say to you then would be hurtful and offensive. But under certain circumstances, it is good to know even the unpleasant parts of other's perceptions.
I appreciate Beren's acceptance of what Occasional said, even though it can be taken as offensive to the other side.
Man. I am starting to feel like the head of some group therapy session. Sorry 'bout that.
I guess I feel that while these are thoughts that we *should* keep to ourselves most of the time, knowing where another person is coming from, really understanding them, allows us to find common ground, stop talking past each other, and, I dunno, really get somewhere where understanding is concerned.
Edit: Another quick thought. When someone does open up and reveal a sort of irrational prejudice against another, whether faith, lack thereof, political affiliation, or whatever, it makes me sad when people get offended at it and shut down in response. I think that when we come face to face with someone's prejudice, we should take that as an opportunity to try to open their mind to a new way of looking at things. Of course, if they are stubborn about it, I usually come to the conclusion that it isn't worth it and refuse to be annoyed by them. After all, they are the one with the problem.
Like KoM's irrational prejudice against believers. I'd like to believe that eventually I could get through to him and help him realize that religion has done a lot of good for the world. But I'm not sure I'm ever going to succeed. I probably won't give up though. It doesn't help when the one who holds the irrational prejudice won't open up about *why*.
*wonders for the umpteenth time what caused KoM's gargantuan shoulder-chip*
[ March 24, 2005, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Squicky, I don't see a problem with airing the different sides of this in different threads. I don't see them as opposing threads because while people in them have differing opinions on this matter they are simply stating what they believe, not trying to show anybody up or prove them wrong.
It isn't about why others should believe them, it is about what they believe.
Not everything has to be a debate, you know, particularly about things this sensitive.
Of course you are free to feel anything you want about it, but the people here have no obligation to care about you opinion of it at all.
Kwea
[ March 24, 2005, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Hey Occasional, Thanks for not displaying your offense in the Nonbeliever thread. I certainly have no problem with you starting your own thread.
I created the Nonbeliever thread because atheists and agnostics generally do not have large support groups or people encouraging them to talk about their lack of faith. I guess that's kind of the problem - lack of faith is seen as a negative. I choose to see it as a positive. In a world where the majority of the world is religious, atheists and agnostics choose a different path. It's a path that is usually not presented to a person, as religion is. You have to be critical and analytical to choose it. I wanted to give them (or "us", I should say) an outlet that wasn't just about responding to a believer's post.
There will be more posts, and some will be critical of religion because that's how a person decides that religious faith is not for them. I'm sorry it offends you, but I did label the thread pretty clearly and you are free to avoid it. I do think people have been pretty fair, decent and honest in that thread so far, though.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I still am not clear on what this thread was intended for, or what happened exactly (has there been editing going on or in my exhausted state am I just missing stuff?) but it seems like if this simply becomes a mirror of the non-believering thread and arguing and complaining is left out it will work just fine.
Hobbes Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think this thread could in fact be very interesting and very useful; while Hatrack as a whole tends to swim in the religious side of the pool, we haven't had many testimony threads. On the other hand, I think Occasional certainly started it in a less than charitable manner; some of his intentions were clearly reactionary and mean-spirited.
I'd suggest that rather than using this thread to respond to things that one found insulting in the other thread -- per Occasional's misguided recommendation -- people focus on answering the questions. It'd produce a much more interesting and fruitful line of inquiry, IMO.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Syn, if you feel strongly about something, and want to go into it in-depth, start a NEW thread! The faith-full folks here have not crossed over into the non-believer thread, have the same respect for them (within the context of posting against the opening poster's wishes).
I'm rather interested in hearing you finally articulate your strong feelings, but like Squicky, am ever frustated by this almost pathological habit of posting that you shouldn't post, but having semi-veiled disdain in the very same post.
Look at it this way. At a superficial level, you are proving Occassional's point about non-believers having thin/tenuous moral behaviors. I think anyone using you in this thread to make that point is being excessive, but I come from a background where good manners have never implied good living. Many other people, in my experience, however, have. Be mindful of others. THey may have struck at you a million times, but it requires more strength to respect (a form of love in my mind) them to an extent, rather than just putting yourself in your common position of being judged.
Stop the cycle already.
-Bok
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: At a superficial level, you are proving Occassional's point about non-believers having thin/tenuous moral behaviors.
At a very superficial level, indeed. Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I like the idea of the thread, and I was thinking yesterday about how I would do my own religious story. I even came up with a theory (*grin*) as to why I went one direction when I was at the exact same crossroads that I read at in the other thread when people I like and respect very much went the other direction. I don't really feel comfortable posting it here, though, for some reason. The combo of Occ's defensiveness and Syn's rudeness isn't hospitable.
Added: Rereading, I think I did Occ a disservice by saying it was defensive. It wasn't defensive until Syn came on. I'm sorry, Occasional.
[ March 24, 2005, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
kat, what you just said is a bizarre microchosm of hatrack.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If the people who've already posted stories here wouldn't mind reposting them, perhaps someone could create a new thread for that purpose?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
We could do an exorcism.
*deep breath* I think if it continues to be polite from now, that'd be okay. I'll add to it, but I need to think about this.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
There will always be those who feel threatened when another world-view is presented, be they believer or non-believer.
Truth is, in a world with 6 billion people, there are at least 6 billion world views.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
L'enfer, c'est les autres.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Erik, I think you have stated the issue here. I think people do tend to find other world views threatening. Especially those who have grown up in an area saturated with one prominent world view. But when we find other's world views threatening/silly/not-worthy-of-respect/etc., we can never learn to understand each other. There will always be prejudice and misunderstanding.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Thank you. I've been exploring Eastern religions lately. I find such ideas fascinating.
Posted by Smasher (Member # 7640) on :
I say whatever works for you, works for you. Believe in what you want to, but know the truth about your beliefs. I am sick to death of listening to blind Christians argueing points that have already been said in the Bible. Think something up from the depths of your own conscience.
I am an Athiest, and proud of it. I believe everyone has a right to believe what they wish, and follow what they wish. A person should not be judged by what religion, or lack-thier-of, they have. I know I sound like I am contradicting myself, but I'm not.
I also lose my self when people try to force thier beliefs on someone, as if they're so much better, and higher then everyone who does not agree with them. Damned haughty people.
[ March 24, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Smasher ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Irony alert! Irony alert!
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Wrong thread, Smasher. Very rude, and very disrespectful. You are not doing yourself or your beliefs any favors. Take it to the non-believers thread.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Smasher, not the thread.
-Bok
EDIT: Incidentally, if you lose yourself, how do you ever know that the self you find is your old self, and that you didn't just take someone else's self?
[ March 24, 2005, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
This is Smasher's first post on this side of the forum. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't the first thread he read on this side of the forum. *wry laugh*
Posted by Smasher (Member # 7640) on :
How is it rude to simple post an opinion? Please explain.
I am a believer, just not of God. I believe in many things that are on the spiritual level, so why can't I post here?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Complaining about "Damned haughty people" in the context of that post is either willfully blind, intentionally rude, or sadly unaware.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Let's vote for unaware. Then there's hope that he won't always be so clueless and rude.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Smasher, there's a "Nonbeliever" thread not far from here. Posted by Smasher (Member # 7640) on :
Complained? All I said was that they annoy me. They will still be who they are wether or not I complain, so is it not useless to complain? I do not waste time on complainning. Just because I said that does not make me unaware, or blind. It is just an opinion, that I have thought out many times. I suggest you first learn of the word, then say I am unaware again. Also, if you are speaking of a misunderstanding of my post, which I think you are, here is what I meant. I never meant religious people are haughty, just the ones who think they are better then someone else because of thier religion
Boko, I simply meant I get angry for a matter of seconds until I think about the situation, in rational terms.
Lady Jane, how was I rude?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Smasher, perhaps you should read the first post in this thread, then the first post in the Nonbeliever thread, and then think about the situation in, as you put it, "rational terms."
You're pissing in the pool.
[ March 24, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Smasher, I'll spell it out: you were being haughty. You complained about haughty people.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Because what you said insulting to people who do believe. It also obliterated the point of the thread - people do not share things that are important to them to people who are primed to insult and denigrate what they are saying.
It is a matter of appropriateness. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but it is not appropriate here. By posting it here, you are saying that any comment from you is worth more than the feelings of those around you, the intent of the thread-maker, and the purpose of the discussion. It's sacrificing the well-being of the community for yourself. That's rude.
Not all comments that are okay to say are okay to say at anytime. It's innapropriate to cheer for your sports team at a wedding, it's innapropriate to hit your future father-in-law up for money the day you meet him, and it's innapropriate to post about your scorn for those who believe in God in a thread asking for their testimonies.
Posted by Smasher (Member # 7640) on :
I did read it, and I meant to post only my opinion, and then I get disrespected because of an opinion. I thought I should see if people are so inconsiderate over a such a simple matter as a post with an opinion in it.
Wow, Lady Jane, you are way over-dramatizing my post. I am saying that everyone has valid opinions on the truth, and they should be share. Everyone has the right to speak about thier beliefs, me no less, no more, then you do. I just wonder how you got all that out of my simple post saying my opinion on matters.
I was not speaking to anyone in here, just to the general public.
[ March 24, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Smasher ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Delete the post from this thread, post in another thread, and walk away.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I did read it, and I meant to post only my opinion, and then I get disrespected because of an opinion."
Let me point out two things:
1) The first post in this thread specifically asked people to avoid posting opinions of that type, in the hopes of creating a "safe" environment for believers to post. Since there's already a thread for nonbelievers, that's a reasonable request.
2) The content of your opinion isn't as much an issue as the rather inflammatory way you chose to express your opinion. You were not, as they say, diplomatic.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
you didn't just post your opinion about what you believe. You posted your opinion about what you percieve as deficiencies in what others believe.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I believe in a higher power because of creation. Everything is to perfect for it to all be by chance. Things work to right for any kind of random evolution to create. I didn’t always believe in a higher power and was atheist until college. My good friend debated me on creation verses evolution all the time and showed critical flaws in evolution that have no chance of being explained other then by a creator. Jesus showed his love for his creation and died to save it. All I had to do was accept his sacrifice and believe and I will now enjoy the gift of heaven even though there is no way I deserve it. I don’t mind people of other faiths. Most of the different Christian religions do ok for me as long as they belief that Christ died for their sins. In personal confrontations with other faiths I try to be respectful and if I get a chance to discuss religion with them I’ll be careful. I feel great about life and am anxious to get to heaven to enjoy eternity. Sure enjoying creation is fun and all, but eternity is what matters.
Thanks Occasional. Don’t you love the typical attacks? Drop me an email sometime.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*sigh*
Okay, that characterizes much of my early encounters with those who don't believe in religion. I realize now that it is a characteristic of the young and vocal more than a characteristic of an agnostic (the non-combatic agnostics didn't talk about it), but it was still a problem. Part of the worth of a system of beliefs is looking at what they come up with, and I didn't like what rebellion against the church so often came up with.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
And here I thought this was a good idea for a thread and hoped to read about other's ideas.
This saddens me.
Posted by Smasher (Member # 7640) on :
Wow, you all need to calm down. It is a forum. You post. I was not saying anyone is less, or more. I was not being haughty by saying damned haughty people. I never said anything about haughty people being below me.
I simply, yes simply typed in how I fel about a topic. I was not saying anything bad to anyone. You all take something so minor, so seriously.
My first post was just an opinion. I mentiond that I am an Athiest, and mentioned that I think that everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs.
This is my last post in here. Don't want to get "stoned" to death.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Promises promises promises....
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Smasher, a sincere apology rather than defensiveness would go a long way to helping this situation. Hatrack may be "just a forum" to you, but to the regulars here it is a unique community with it's own culture. You are stepping into a culture you are unfamiliar with and committing faux pas. Rather than trying to tell everyone how wrong they are, try stopping a moment, learning about the environment you are in, and understanding *why* your behavior is out of place.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Believe in what you want to, but know the truth about your beliefs. I am sick to death of listening to blind Christians argueing points that have already been said in the Bible. Think something up from the depths of your own conscience.
am an Athiest, and proud of it.
haughty: Scornfully and condescendingly proud
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Don't want to get "stoned" to death.
So you do think posts in a forum can hurt others. OK.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Ok, we’ve hashed this out… Now back to Occasional’s original questions
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*nods*
I posted a little about how my biggest testimony crisis was solved here. I'll answer the rest of the questions, and offer my theory.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I'm really sorry for asking this and posting in your thread, but this struck me.
quote: Too many who claim that title treat religious people with "polite like you would an ignorant child" kind of respect.
I can certainly see why you feel that way. For me, the biggest trouble I have with being an atheist is not wanting what I believe to offend anyone at all. I'm not out to prosyletize (sp?). Like any attempt at being politically correct, being non-offensive and respectful does kind of come out condescending. When I meet someone who feels atheists are doing the ignorant child thing, I don't want to do that. So, how would believers like non-believers to be?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Hopeful.
Not politically correct, I know, but it's honest. Second-best is magnanimous and laid-back.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Respectful, and not smug or condescending, I would imagine.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
This is an instance where "the golden rule" is perfectly applicable.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: So, how would believers like non-believers to be?
I figure I'll try to not be arrogant if they will try not to be arrogant. I think that even if they think religious beliefs are "silly", they should take care when and where they express those thoughts. It is a belittling opinion to hold, just as atheists/agnostics feel belittled by believers who think they are better people than they are because they follow God.
Is it OK to hold belittling opinions? I guess so. I don't know. But I think we have a responsibility to take great care how (and if) we express them. I also think we should be very magnanimous and open to finding new respect and admiration for those who think differently than us.
Edit: One other thing. It really bugs me when atheists (usually agnostics don't do this) think that an intelligent or rational believer is an oxymoron. Are there blind-followers out there? Sure. And you know what? I don't have much more respect for them than you do.
[ March 24, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The problem with the Golden Rule standard is that it will lead to offending others.
For example, if someone believes in hell, and believes that not believing in God will result in someone going to hell, then they would want to be told about it in the most persuasive manner possible.
Similarly, if someone view religion as essentially a giant con game wasting time and resources, a prison even, they may view attacks on religion as the only rational thing to do.
In this case, the failure in the rule's operation would be in the person failing to analogize what they would want to another situation - a tricky exercise at best. In other words, in defining "as you would have them do unto you."
Of course, I can't think of anything better to go by.
Dagonee
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Boy, that's what I get for stating something in front of a lawyer.
Point conceded, however...
Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
Well, not that I don't enjoy the friendly banter that's been going on here , but I think I'll go back to what this thread was intended for.
Continuing from my previous post:
quote: Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
I avoid confrontation like the plague. (Notice how I don't add anything to the other discussions on this thread, and just continue with what I was talking about yesterday? Case in point.) A confrontation, to me, means a conflict. I don't like getting in debates because I rarely have the right words at the right time to back up my beliefs and opinions. Also, I very easily see others' points of view, and while that doesn't necessarily make me agree with them, I can understand where they're coming from, so I usually don't see the point in arguing with them.
However, if by confrontation, you just mean being presented with people of other faiths, or no faith, I don't have a problem with that. Sometimes I'm curious about what other people believe and why, so I ask them, but it doesn't bother me.
quote: How we feel about other religions or no-religion.
It's hard for me to imagine how some people can look at everything around them, see the things that have happened in their lives, and still deny the existance of God. That's one thing I don't understand.
I do believe that Jesus is the only way, as he said, no one gets to the Father except through him. If someone doesn't believe that Jesus is God's Son, and that he gives us salvation, I don't hold that personally against them. It doesn't make me think less of them. But I tend to feel more comfortable and be more open with people who have beliefs similar to mine. I just feel like they can understand me better because they know where I'm coming from. I still have friends who follow other religions, or no religion, but my closest friends are Christians.
quote: How we feel about life
Life is nothing compared to the eternal after-life. We can still celebrate in life, and praise God in what we do, but I think we are here to get to know God and to bring as many people to salvation as we can. Nothing else really matters.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"It really bugs me when atheists (usually agnostics don't do this) think that an intelligent or rational believer is an oxymoron."
My problem here is that I hear conversion stories like Jay's -- he debated evolution with a creationist who convinced him that evolution wasn't possible -- and can't help wishing that Jay had had a more competent evolutionist on his side to poke holes in the creationist's argument. In general, it's been my observation that no good intellectual argument for God exists, and consequently I tend to feel that people who were converted by argument -- rather than testimony or a bolt from the blue -- simply weren't exposed to the right counter-arguments. This is often confused with a sense of intellectual superiority, and perhaps rightly so -- because I do believe that people who believe for that reason and that reason alone are ignorant of more salient facts.
[ March 24, 2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
In my experience, believers and non-believers alike (with some exceptions, of course) tend to follow Varley's version of the Golden Rule: Screw unto others before they screw you.
I think it's also known as the Bronze Rule, maybe. But maybe I shouldn't post on this thread when I don't feel good...
[ March 24, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*hugs Morbo* Aw, I'm sorry, Morbo.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
*squirms*Leggo, I'm sad... LOL I can't even pick a fight well today.
LJ=Katarina from Dallas, right? I can't keep the kats on this board straight. Thanks.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Wow…. So my faith is less since I come to it logically instead of a burning bush? Not sure I agree, but I understand what you are saying. I also counter that my father is probably one of the most devout atheist evolutionists around. He always had some kind of counter for any argument. He’s a biology teacher and a devout reader of numerous scientific journals. So I was rather well exposed to it growing up. By the same counter if I had a more competent creationist to debate you……
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"He always had some kind of counter for any argument."
If that were true, you wouldn't be convinced. Posted by Cow-Eating Man (Member # 4491) on :
Or, if it were, you're belief wouldn't be based on a logical arguement.
[ March 24, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Cow-Eating Man ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*laugh* Yes, this is Kat from Dallas.
Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
quote:In general, it's been my observation that no good intellectual argument for God exists
I wasn't even going to get into this discussion/argument, but I want to share my opinion on this.
Tom, I agree with you. I haven't found a good, intellectual argument that God exists either. But I think that's kind of the point. God transends rational thought. If there was proof, even in the intellectual sense, that God exists, what would faith be? There is a verse in the book of Hebrews that says something like, "Faith is believing in what we do not see." (If I'm wrong about that, or if anyone can quote it better, please feel free to correct me. I don't claim to be super-knowledgable about scriptures.) I'm not trying to preach at you or anything, I'm just saying that that's why I don't need solid evidence that God exists to believe it.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Ok Tom, I hate it when you edit and add whole sentences….
Intellectual superiority? What? Because I have a different view that makes me look like arrogant know it all? How have I done that? Anyway…. I’m not sure I’m getting your point here.
Just because someone has a counter doesn’t make it right.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:I haven't found a good, intellectual argument that God exists either. But I think that's kind of the point.
Yes, exactly. I think that faith is a very personal thing, arising from personal spiritual experiences. I haven't had one, and I'm not looking for one anymore, so I am an atheist.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I don't know which side to post in. I don't disbelieve in God, but I'm on hiatus from "religion" as it were. And I've got a lot more peace with my conscience about where I am now than I ever had before.
There is a Bible verse that says
quote: 1 Peter 3:15 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain
15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
The thing is, when many churched chidren are taught the "be ready to give an answer" the "meekness and fear" at the end and the "sanctify in your hearts" at the beginning is left off to emphasize the middle. And even if it is included, comprehension of either concept and applying it to daily life, is difficult for an adult, much less a child.
The thing that currently gets to me about many believers, (right now particularly my well-churched cousins) is that they have been taught a "script" to follow, even if not directly, unconsiously. And they keep saying the next thing, and the next thing. And when I demonstrate to them them I know the subject better than they do, they keep going on, with dogged persistence that makes no logical sense (Yes, I know they'd say it's worth it from a spiritual sense, but lets ignore that for a second.) I tell them that I still don't believe in their specific concept of "God" and that whatever I do believe is between me and God to work out, and I'm ok with what God thinks of me right now, they respond with anger and frustration. Now I know that most of my cousins are teenagers, but it frustrates me that so much that what they are taught is anti-logic. And I'm not talking about creation vs. evolution. I'm talking about blindly taking formulaic sayings as gospel without actually reading and studying the Scriptures for *themselves* Always letting someone else interpret them, even though the protestants were supposed to have been liberated from that.
I believe Faith can have a rational basis. My father is an example of that. The faith such as I have, is a totally rational faith. Faith can be based on experience and *still* be rational faith. But illogical fanaticism, and close mindedness, in the face of a calm reasoned argument from *either* side, bugs the heck out of me.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hester, one of my favorite Bible verses:
quote:Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I love the poetry of the passage if nothing else.
AJ (And you can use verse 3 as a Biblical argument for the existence of Black Holes. )
[ March 24, 2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
Thank you, AJ, that's the one.
quote: And you can use verse 3 as a Biblical argument for the existence of Black Holes.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Intellectual superiority? What? Because I have a different view that makes me look like arrogant know it all? How have I done that? Anyway…. I’m not sure I’m getting your point here."
No, you weren't. I was saying that it made me look like I had a chip on my shoulder about intellectual superiority. Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Why we believe in a higher power. This question is a thread in and of itself, and it's extremely difficult, at least for me, to capsulate. For me, it's a combination of reason, study, and personal experience. I could go into great detail on each one of those, and how they contributed -and continue to contribute- to my belief in Deity, and in particular, the Deity I worship as my God.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started. I was raised as the son of an Assemblies of God pastor. God and Church were a part of my life since before I was a fetus. I was raised with basic principles and doctrines. But, as many on Hatrack have shown, just because one is raised in a religion doesn't make it a predetermined result that the individual won't try to 'step out of the box', and reconfirm things on their own. I did this twice.
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring? My "Understanding" and "My Faith", while being two separate elements, I think, both have their roots in the same essential (varied) places: Family, friends, examples of strangers, Scriptures, History, Prayer, Personal revelation.
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith. Visited PWEB's "Religion and Moral Philosophy" forum lately? *grin* In most cases, I don't have many in-person discussions concerning faith with those who don't have it, or simply aren't interested in it. When individuals attack tenets of my faith by ridicule, or my mischaracterizing them, I try to politely and tactfully set the record straight. Sometimes I slip, and fail in the 'polite' aspect, but I try very, very hard. I have many wonderful friends of little or no faith. Suffice it to say, I don't follow the advice of "Lambuel" concerning atheists
How we feel about life (death is covered in another thread nicely) I feel that it's a wonderful gift - and this includes the trials and tribulations that we go through. If we come out of them having learned something that can either be applied to better our lives - or even better yet someone (or many other) else's - than the hardship was a blessing in disguise. I view many temporary hardships as being preventative of larger, far more devastating hardships.
How we feel about other religions or no-religion. Well, in my case this particularly unique, and I guess I'll discuss it chronologically.
Growing up, I didn’t think much about other religions, not having much experience with them first hand. Muslims, practitioners of Hinduism, Shintoism – these were all Mythical People Who Lived Far Away and had Nothing To Do With Me. This was not something I was taught, it was just how I realize I viewed the situation – or, more accurately, didn’t view the world. I didn’t think about it. It wasn’t in my mind.
Differences in Christian denominations were even less apparent to me. I knew I’d at least heard of Baptists when I was young, because the day that I was originally Baptized by my father (in a different church building than our own because, simply, we didn’t have a baptismal font in our building), I turned and asked my mother if we were in a Baptist Church. I assumed that since it was a church building were people were being Baptized, than it certainly must be a ‘Baptist Church’. My mother smiled, and told me no, it wasn’t. “Oh, okay,” I replied, and thought nothing more of it.
Catholics I never knew much about, other than, as far as I knew then, they liked Mary a whole lot more than we did, and they had priests (which our church didn’t), and their priests and Church leaders wore a bunch of really elaborate costumes. And there was the Pope. I knew he existed, and was the head of the church, but that’s all I knew. Honestly, that’s the most I knew about the Catholic church until many, many years later.
Presbyterians, Methodists – to me, they were all a bunch of churches that were somewhat in-between Catholics and us.
Mormons I first heard about through TV commercials when I was in middle school. You know, those commercials giving warm family messages that didn’t seem to have any additional religious messages, but always ended with, “A message from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.” I think I asked my dad who they were, and he said something about them believing Jesus visited the American Indians. Crazy, right? I also vaguely realized that we had an LDS meetinghouse near our house there (in Springfield, MO). I rode my bike around there a lot, had considered walking in a few times, but never did. They had a great parking lot for bike riding.
One of the people who became one of the most influential figures in my life was a girl I met in high school, named Rachel Kraft. I only found out through one small little incident that she was a Mormon, and didn’t really think anything of it. (I was at her house for an X-Files party – yeah, this girl introduced me to the X-Files – and she and a couple of her girlfriends started singing a silly giggly song abut being ‘Mormon girls with hair in curls”, and then she said something about ‘And then Joseph Smith went up to the hill something-or-other…’ and I don’t even remember what she said after that. Having never heard of Joseph Smith, I thought she meant John Smith, and thus concluded she had seen Disney’s Pocahontas one too many times.
That was the extent of our religious dialogue. I just didn’t have any interest in theology at the time.
I moved away to Jersey that year, and shortly afterwards found myself having some Theology questions that I asked my dad and other associate pastors that I could never really get sufficient answers for. “Was there Baptism before John the Baptist, or did he just make it up?” “Dad, where did your ordination come from? Where did they get their ordinations from?” – among other things. But I didn’t dwell on them. I guessed they were insignificant, and thus shoved them aside to the ‘who cares’ pile.
But at some point, I remember thinking, “Wow. I’m so lucky that of all the Churches in the world, I was lucky to be born into the TRUE one!” – and then realizing that probably everyone born into any church – or religion in general – felt the same way. That was a mind-blowing thought for me.
It wasn’t until my Freshman year of College that I decided I wanted a new Bible, a good Study Bible. I decided I wanted to study the roots of my faith myself, and see if a) I couldn’t find out the answers to my questions from myself, and b) to if the answers I found confirmed what I already believed. I didn’t go to Church much in this period. Mostly, admittedly, because of laziness. Sleep was more attractive to me than theological discourse.
It was in my Junior year, following a bit of a personal emotional ‘awakening’ that I finished reading the (NIV Study) Bible cover to cover, Genesis to Revelation. I found it incredibly insightful, and found my faith in God to be reconfirmed. Not all of my questions were answered, and a few new ones were raised, but I was convinced that we just didn’t have the answers to them. I was sure that, based on the Bible alone, my Dad’s church was the closest a Church could come to being the ‘True Church’.
It was in the middle of this year that began a friendship with (yet another) Mormon girl. Religion primarily had nothing to do with it – until emotions started getting into the mix, and we both kind of, simultaneously, fell for each other.
Now, religion was a MAJOR issue.
I was convinced that the Mormons were wrong because, quite frankly, it was ridiculous, and I had just convinced myself that my church (which, I may note, up to this point I had chosen not to apply for membership in, even though my father kept wanting me to) was the Right one.
But, I loved this girl, and wanted to know more about her Deceptive Faith. So I got a copy of the Book of Mormon (from my Dad’s apologetics library, actually), and found myself a copy of “How to Save Your Loved Ones From Mormonism” as well as “Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons”. Reading the BoM didn’t go all that far – I got a little into Mosiah when I put it down, finding things ridiculous and kind of boring. I kept a notebook where I would write down everything I found ‘off’ or ‘silly’. By this time I had also ordered a copy of a Shiny New Triple Combination (containing not only the BoM, but the other LDS specific volumes of Scripture ‘The Doctrine and Covenants’ and “The Pearl of Great Price”. Cursory skimming of these works let me find even more ridiculous things that I couldn’t believe anyone could find plausible.
Following one particular (long distance phone) discussion where I pointed this and some other things out to this girl, she had shut off the phone and (I’m told) thrown it across the room.
That was the last time for a long while that we ever discussed specific theology and doctrine head on.
Eventually, although it was hard, we realized the relationship couldn’t go any further. We loved each other, but we were both committed to our faiths, and would not convert for the other, nor would we want each other to convert just for reasons of maintaining a relationship. It just wasn’t to be. We remain wonderful friends to this day.
But unknown to her, my fascination with LDS theology didn’t end. I had the idea come into my mind that I would stand up as a bit of an Internet Missionary To The Mormons – I would be the one to show them the error of their ways. I knew the scriptures, surely I could confound them, and show them The Truth!
I did this for a while on a couple forums – including Hatrack. I was quite a little bastard, and ruffled a lot of feathers.
I continued to read a lot of Anti stuff, and considered myself a Mormon Expert.
So when EnderCon came in Summer of 2002, I knew I’d find the opportunity to actually visit Salt Lake and see some of the sites I’d only read about educational and fascinating.
Which I certainly did. But it was in the tour of the conference center when I first started to get a feeling of Shame – and that’s only because I was caught in my own lie.
See, when we started the tour, a couple of Sister Missionaries, the ones giving the tour, asked if me and my friend had read the Book of Mormon. “I have,” I said, knowing full well I hadn’t really read the ‘whole thing’. But what did that matter, right? I’d done more research than she probably ever had. I probably knew what she believed better than she did!
Eventually, the tour took us up a a portion of the conference center that housed the original Arnold Friberg paintings that are reprinted in all the paperback editions of the Book of Mormon. I always loved those paintings, one in particular.
So when the Missionaries asked if there was any pic we liked the most, I immediately pointed out my favorite. “The one of Samuel the Lamanite,” I said. “That’s a wonderful one,” she said. “Can you tell us a little about that story?”
Well, no, I couldn’t, because I hadn’t…actually…read up to that point. My response sort of betrayed this. I said, “Uh, it’s been a long time. I don’t really remember.” Idiot.
Not only had I arrogantly lied to a pure-in-heart Sister Missionary who had dedicated a year and a half to what she thought was right, I had been caught. I felt a bit like crap on the bottom of a sneaker.
So I decided to make an honest man of myself after the fact, and actually read the BoM cover to cover, this time trying to see what was in it that these people loves and found so inspiring and ‘true’.
It was if I was reading a completely different book than I had before. And it scared the bezeezus out of me. I was getting distinct and somewhat forceful-yet-peaceful impressions that THIS IS TRUE.
So I threw the book across the room. Honestly. I did it.
But I picked it up again eventually, and read it through. Then I read the D&C. And the Pearl of Great Price.
The feeling of omigodthisistrue continued, so I knew I needed to pick up my Bible again and read through, reconfirming that it pointed on every page to how false this ‘Mormon Gospel’ was.
Instead, I found stunning new confirmations of LDS doctrine on almost every page.
That scared me.
So I started reading Eusibius’ Ecclesiastical History, to find out what the Early Church was like, and how different from LDS theology it really was…
…and I kept finding things that CLICKED with LDS theology. Every step I took to prove it wrong kept, well, backfiring.
I started realizing also how inaccurate all those anti-books I had been reading were (I worked in Lifeway Christian Stores – owned by the Southern Baptist Convention, so I had a plethora of volumes to choose from), and how misleading, and how some of them contained blatant falsehoods. (One of my favorites, a book geared towards informing Christian teens about what other religions and ‘cults’ believe called “WHY SO MANY GODS?”, stated that “Mormons teach that Jesus was born as a result of Mary and Joseph having SEX!” – which I knew for a fact was not what the LDS Church taught at all. I pointed it out to manager, and took it off the shelf. It was back on the shelf within two days.)
This struggle went on for close to a year. I felt that it was true, but I didn’t want it to be. I kept trying to find excuses, and reasons as to why it couldn’t be true. Everytime I thought I found something, it was quickly shown to me why it wasn’t really a problem at all.
It was a very, very spiritually tough time for me. I didn’t tell anyone about this, because it had to be between myself and God – I wouldn’t be caught in a game of tug-of-war. I prayed vocal, heart-wrenching prayers asking for the Truth to be revealed.
…and the ‘LDS IS TRUE’ impressions kept coming, now more forceful than ever. That wasn’t the answer I wanted God to provide, so I kept asking, hoping he’d give me another answer.
At one point, following a particularly tough prayer, I had the thought that things would be so much easier if some random person would just come up to me and give me the answer. None of this ‘listen to the Spirit’ thing, I wanted a flesh and blood person to deliver God’s message! But of course I couldn’t ask that – so I didn’t. It was a thought, which I reproved myself for afterwards. Who was I to set a test for God?
The next day, in my acting class, one of my classmates – with whom we’d never had any sort of theological discussions – came up to me and said, “Dave? I’ve got a question. It’s gonna sound kind of weird.” “Go ahead,” I said. “Are you Mormon?” She asked. I blinked. I remembered my thought of the night before. “No….why do ask?” It turns out a friend of hers was, and had seen some new person in Church, and described him to my classmate. She thought it sounded like me, so she asked if it was. It certainly wasn’t. “Okay,” she then said, and walked away, leaving me weirded out of my mind.
That was the event I usually refer to as ‘God Throwing Rocks At Me.”
It was still several months before I actually decided to attend an LDS Sacrament meeting. Bringing my leather-bound LDS Quad scriptures with me, people assumed I was already a member. Thinking this, a family invited me to dinner afterwards – when they realized I wasn’t a member, they noted that all 4 missionaries were already coming over for dinner along with me, so would I mind taking a first discussion?
I did, and committed to Baptism to two weeks from that day. On February 28, 2004, I took the plunge.
It’s now over a year later, and I have had confirmed day in and day out this was the most correct decision I’ve ever made in my life.
I’ve since studied other Faiths, and have adopted a high level of respect for them. I’m in the process of reading the Qur’an, and have read much about Hinduism and some of their Vedic literature. I am reading through the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am reading the history of Greek Philosophy.
Everything reconfirms my decision. This past week a received a special Church ordinance called a Patriarchal Blessing, in which a specially ordained Priesthood holder – whom I had never met before – gave me blessing and admonitions about my life that were so personal, and so specifically me, that no one could have given them without special knowledge concerning me, some of which I hadn’t made clear to anyone – but God. I know that this was an inspired ordinance. I know that the Priesthood power by which it was given is true. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints truly is Jesus Christ’s Church – and that the Gospel it teaches is True.
I've left out a lot of things (and very important people)that led me to this conclusion, but what I've written here is sufficient for now.
I’ve learned it. I’ve experienced it. I’ve lived it.
[ March 24, 2005, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:I don't know which side to post in. I don't disbelieve in God, but I'm on hiatus from "religion" as it were. And I've got a lot more peace with my conscience about where I am now than I ever had before.
AJ, I'm right there with you. That's one of the main reasons I haven't posted to either thread, though I've watched both with interest.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Aw, I love seeing Taal's story all written out.
Posted by holden (Member # 7351) on :
Wow taalcon. That was powerful. Thank you so much for sharing.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
wonderful Dave. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I liked that post, Taalcon.
So it was the lovable Mormon women who showed you the light? Very crafty of them. Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Morbo: you have no idea.
Alas, it appears I've killed the thread.
Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
I think we're (I'm) just speechless.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm still waiting on Katie's story.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
People who get baptized in February in 2004 kick butt.
Enjoyed that Dave.
Hobbes Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Wow Taalcon - I had never heard your testimony before. It is pretty amazing. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Why we believe in a higher power. Dave said it best, logic, life experience, and ultimately confirmation from that Power.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started. I looked for answers to questions I couldn't figure out on my own and found them.
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring? Scripture is first and foremost. I get a lot of "technical" scriptural knowledge from religion classes or discussion, but it's not really until I go to the scriptures that I feel my understanding increases instead of just my knowledge.
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith. Most of it for me was in my dorm floor last year (certainly not exclusively but then I haven't had that much time to pick a fight ). Pretty much they all thought I was weird, and possibly racist, which ticked me off. And then when I got to know them better they kept trying to get me to watch porn or to go drinking. I got in a lot of debates with them (I feel like I always won too ). But I don't think the religious aspect ever got too contentious.
How we feel about life (death is covered in another thread nicely) It's a lot longer than I understand.
How we feel about other religions or no-religion. Bluntly: they're wrong. Long answer: almost all have a portion of the truth (yes, even non-Christian ones ) but they all lack some aspect, or key doctrine, and all lack the authority of the priesthood. That's what I think, if I didn't, I wouldn't be a member of my Church.
To extend that a bit, I don't feel hostile, threatened or anything else by other religions. Nor do I think I'm some how superior or given a special place on Earth because I've found (what I think is) the true Church.
Hobbes
[ March 25, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
My stories often get this kind of response.
Hobbes Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I have a homework project I have to do right now, but I've been thinking about this all week. Will post soon.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Verily, we know perfectly well where the stories of the Christian god come from, to wit, they were made up by a desert tribe about 3000 years ago. And what is your concrete proof that the Easter Bunny is a myth?
I'd like to point out that no one I've ever heard of has died for the cause of the Easter Bunny. I'm not talking about religion-induced wars, I'm talking about the martyrdom of the apostles of Christ's early church, suffering death and persecution rather than recant their testimony.
The above statement was made by KoM in the Nonbeliever thread. But I figured my statement belonged here.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I'm talking about the martyrdom of the apostles of Christ's early church, suffering death and persecution rather than recant their testimony."
Is it your assertion, Beverly, that martyrdom proves the validity of a belief? In my opinion, it proves only the strength of that belief.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Depends on the circumstances. I think that someone being willing to die for their beliefs can be strong evidence for the reality of their witness.
To elaborate some, I know that there are people willing to die for their religion by sacrificing their lives in the effort of doing violence in the name of their religion. It seems to me that the majority of these people have been told by someone else that by so doing they will go to heaven and be greatly rewarded. *These people are often raised with very narrow sources of warped information to the point one might think of them as brain-washed.
So there is obviously a question: is this person mentally balanced? I think that one has to take the global picture of the person on order to make a judgement call on this.
For instance, I find the testimony of Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus to be a powerful one when I look at the information I have about him as a person. First, he was very much strongly anti-Christian. He believed his cause was just to the point of assisting in the assasination of the Christian "troublemakers". We see him holding the coat for a man who is stoning Steven.
He later completely changes direction after receiving a vision of Jesus Christ. He devotes all his time and energy towards a completely different belief. If he actually saw Christ and realized that he had been horribly in the wrong, this makes sense and is consistent. He suffers great persecution and (I believe) death receiving what in return? From what I can tell his reward is doing the right thing.
What else would have caused this change? Since I already believe in God and don't find that belief outlandish, it makes sense to believe that he saw what he claimed to see. There are other, perhaps more subtle reasons surrounding this whole thing that cement my belief, but because those other subtle reasons are different from person to person, it isn't surprising that others would look at the same evidence and come away with a different explaination--particularly if they find the existance of God to be highly unlikely.
I have similar reasons for believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he and others saw what they say they saw. Again, there are the more subtle reasons that differ in the perceptions of different people that cement my belief, other more subtle evidence that "confirm" this belief. But they are more personal and don't transfer as well from person to person. They in part have to do with what I believe the "effects" of the teachings are and their harmony with other truths and goodness. That is where it becomes highly personal. This is why I have no problem with someone looking at the same evidence and coming away with a different conclusion.
It seems plain to me that there is a difference between a sincere witness willing to die for their true belief in something they actually beheld from the divine, and someone who has been mentally abused or is deluded. We may disagree as to who fits in the category, but I feel I can make a pretty good case for the witnesses in which I believe. Might they have been deluded? Sure. Do I *believe* they were? No.
[ March 29, 2005, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*I know that this addresses a concern of yours, Tom. That when there is a homogeneous group of people living together, there is a self-sustaining group-think that happens. Basically, the people in the group tend to have a warped view of the world around them.
I agree that this does happen. That is why I think it is good for a Latter-day Saint to live out of Utah, at least at some point in their lives (keep in mind that the majority never do live in Utah, at least in these days when there is a definite majority outside Utah.)
I think it is good to have one's ideas challanged, to consider the reasons why a person believes the way they do. If they have not had to wrestle for their faith, never had to question it, then it isn't really their *own* faith but rather something they have inherited. It think this is the same for any ideology a person holds, whether it be political, cultural, whatever.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Good point, Kat.
I *really* appreciate that about Hatrack.
Edit: the post I responded to doesn't exist anymore.
[ March 29, 2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Bev, have you considered those cults that commit mass suicide? There's one every few years. Clearly this is a rather strong belief, right? Mere persecution would mean nothing to these people. But I trust you do not think they are correct in their beliefs.
So then, for a neutral outside observer, what distinguishes comrade Smith from a modern commune-living cult with two hundred members in the hills of California? And sheer numbers is not acceptable; if you chuck enough cults at the general population, sooner or later one of them will catch on. Just as happened with Christianity and Islam. Neither Jesus nor Mohammed were the only prophets of their day, after all.
(I apologise if this is not appropriate for the thread, but it seems to have moved on a bit from its witnessing origins.)
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Bev, have you considered those cults that commit mass suicide?
Absolutely. And I think I addressed that idea indirectly. At least, I was thinking of it.
quote: So then, for a neutral outside observer, what distinguishes comrade Smith from a modern commune-living cult with two hundred members in the hills of California?
They didn't commit mass suicide? Seriously, it is the global perspective of which I spoke. I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet because he claimed to be. Many have claimed this. I believe it because of the many many details surrounding the circumstances. It is the evidence as well as the spiritual feelings I have about them.
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It doesn't help when the one who holds the irrational prejudice won't open up about *why*. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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, but I think I'll go back to what this thread was intended for.![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
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