Ok, we have a new principal at our school...the third actually in the last two years. I've managed to weather the storms of changes in the school quite nicely by simply doing my job and doing it well, getting very few parent complaints, lots of parent compliments, and keeping my actions well-documented. I've put up with curriculum changes, schedule changes, building changes....but this new woman may be the one I cannot work with.
On the first day she arrived, I feared I might be in trouble. Here is a description - perfectly styled bleach-blonde hair, size three? five? figure, flouncy dress with wide belt and full skirt, high heels, perfect nails and make up. Think Donna Reed or June Cleaver.
Now me. I'm 5'4", size 10, no hairstyle, no make up, no nail polish, strictly a jeans, polo shirts, and sneakers kind of gal.
It is my firm belief that a teacher of middle school students should be comfortable with himself/herself. I have NO PROBLEM with teachers who want to wear ties and dresses (not together) as long as that is what works for them, but I have a real problem with people trying to impose it on me.
Hence my problem...this principal in her second faculty meeting decided that as her first major change to improve our school, she was going to impose a teacher dress code. No sneakers, no jeans except on Friday, not even nice ones of colors other than blue.
Now, I know this is pretty common practice but it has never been the policy of our school and my husband, who works for the same school system, does not have this policy.
Honestly, while I seriously resent being told WHAT to wear, what really burns me is HOW it was presented.
First, she commented that half the faculty looks like it is going to the beach instead of work. Next, she read us all a little poem about how "Professionalism Begins With Appearance" which was incredibly condescending. Personally I always felt professionalism begins with performance. I am an extremely professional teacher with two degrees, eleven years of experience, the highest scoring 7th graders in my county, and extremely good classroom management and I can tell you that my professionalism is the same whether I'm wearing a dress, jeans, or pajamas.
She stated that if we improved our appearance, our students would treat us differently. Well, I like how my students respect me. I don't want any changes.
When someone voiced that this would cost money her reply was, "Don't give me that excuse. Walmart has nice clothes." Now granted, I DO shop at Walmart, but I don't want some woman who obviously shops at Talbots sp? to tell me to shop there.
And this was her FIRST concern for our school. Not curriculum, not test scores, not safety and security. Dress Code! Followed immediately by a suggestion that we do some "spring cleaning" in our classrooms and that we should not be putting down tape on the floors and carpets in the elementary portion of our school because it damages the surfaces. (Have any of you ever been in an elementary school where there WASN'T tape on the floors and carpets for kids to know where to sit and stand in line?)
I have serious concerns about a principal who puts appearances before the happiness of the staff and the performaces of the students.
[ April 04, 2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Are you comfortable bringing your concerns to her, and then to your superintendant? Or potentially getting together with like-minded teachers and sending her a letter?
'Cause I think you're right, it's unimportant and silly.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
can you wear Khaki pants? Personally, I find them to be as comfortable as jeans (though they are harder to deal with...since you have to worry with wrinkles). That way you can still be comfortable, and not clash with the new boss.
The she dealt with the situation was poor...but if she was good at managing people, she would prob be working for a business that would give her a decent salary rather than working as a principal where the pay is crappy and the hours are terrible.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
At first I thought I was the only one sincerely ticked off about this. Then I closed my mouth, opened my ears, and walked around the campus. Everywhere I went, teachers were complaining about this woman. People have gone to our union rep but our union is practically powerless and worthless. Everyone was furious about one of the principal's mandates...dress, spring cleaning, Walmart, beach attire, carpet tape...she managed to alienate the entire faculty in one meeting. Today when we returned from spring break we got a welcome back note in our mailboxes. On the back was a copy of the "dress code poem" and more specifics about exactly what she does and does not want to see on campus.
Several have spoken with her about it. All have been shot down.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Lupus, yes we can wear Khakis, but it's the principle of the thing...pun intended. And I have really bad feet. Any shoes other than sneakers cause me pain. I will probably have to get a doctor's note or something, proving yet again how the staff is being treated like the students. She even went so far as to remind some of our skirt-wearing teachers about the fingertip length rule (while wearing a fairly short skirt herself). And if I wear khakis, I will have to go out and purchase khakis. That's money. And while I can "do my shopping at Walmart" I still don't want to spend the funds on a new wardrobe.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*Scoff* There are more important issues than what people wear.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ouch. How good is your relationship (or that of teachers in general) with the superintendent? It may be possible to get things modified.
Also, how did this woman get hired? I'd think the public interview process many states and school boards have adopted would pretty much weed out absurdist condescending perfectionists.
It seems that without drastic action no change is going to take place. There are two possibilities, either she changes her policies or she gets fired. She can either change her policies on her own, or be forced to change them by above. Most school districts would be reluctant to overrule any but the most egregious policies by principals, though, and she seems extremely unlikely to change her position.
Some form of collective action may result in that or another one of the desired outcomes (for instance, a petition coupled with a few well-argued letters to the editor in the local paper from various teachers stating basically what your post does; in particular include how her policy is harming safety for appearance's sakes).
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: Several have spoken with her about it. All have been shot down.
Then it is definitely time to request a meeting with the superintendant. Preferably for MANY people to request meetings, after he listens to 5 or 6 of you calmly and logically lay out your postitions, perhaps s/he'll decide s/he'd rather talk to the principal than the other 20 people who have requested meetings.
Edit: To add quote, and say I really like fugu's point about letters to the editor of the local paper.
[ April 04, 2005, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I have never believed that there is a strong connection between competence and dressing up. One of the best professors I have had so far wears dirty, disgusting sandals that are falling apart, and sometimes has his shirt open so far that tufts of hair stick out. It's really disturbing, but he was a fantastic lecturer and took a strong interest in making sure everyone understood the material and did well in the class.
I personally find wearing nice clothes distracting. Also, if your students respect you, see if you can enlist their help. It sounds like your principal isn't going to listen to anyone at all, but it can't hurt to have students involved. Also, you could just all not follow the dress code. She's unlikely to punish everyone and would be a complete idiot if she fired anyone over this.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Take a petition to her. If it's ignored/shot down, take it to the superintendant.
Or, just all ignore her. But that might get you in trouble.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
She's not going to be reasonable - it sounds like she's entirely content in her own self-righteousness.
To be fair, a dress code is not uncommon for developing and maintaining a presence of professionalism, but in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty low on the totem pole, particularly in an academic setting.
Based on the poem (really, really obnoxious), she's trying to straddle the line of being an authority figure and still keep the girly, touchy-feely image intact.
I don't think you're going to have much luck breaking her policies - she was probably sent to the school for a reason and not necessarily a good one.
You might want to ask the superintendent if they have a feedback system for employees to voice complaints.
-Trevor
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: "Don't give me that excuse. Walmart has nice clothes."
TOTALLY out of line.
There are much better ways to have students respect you than intimidating them with Professionalism and Fakery. I'm disgusted.
Rooting for you, Cor.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
That's ridiculous. I would think that staff dress code would not be in the principal's jurisdiction; that's the kind of thing that has to be district policy.
Personally, I'd take the route of civil disobedience until she can prove that she has the right to impose such policies.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Before you got to the superintendent, think this through. If she has the power to do this, you'll lose and will have a VERY awkward relationship with the principal.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
*winces under soon-to-come blows*
I happen to believe that professionalism does matter, and that it is reflected in how you dress, therefore I see absolutely no problem with her imposing a dress code.
Granted, she sounds like a class A witch with a capitol "b" and I'm not defending some of her comments, like the WalMart one, I also agree there are probably more pressing issues for your school and for her to make this her foremost one might be questionable.
However, I do believe that people in all professions need to accept that part of working and being a professional may well be dressing like one. And I do not think jeans, polo shirts, and sneakers constitutes professional dress. Sorry.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
If you go the civil disobedience route, see if there is anybody else that will do it with you.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Thank you for the suggestions. The superintendent is out. He, like everyone else in the district, hates our school. We are the most affluent school in the district, receive the most donations, have the best students and resources, and therefore, jealousy is rampant. Instead of being proud of our school's accomplishments, the board and superintendent resent the power the parents in our community have.
How was she hired? By a panel of teachers and parents. But it was by written resume and you really can't tell that much from just a resume. You really need to speak face to face. The procedure is that the panel is given all the applications, they narrow it down to three, and the school board makes the final choice. Believe me, the people who selected her are very sheepish these days and not happy with their selection at all.
As for involving students, well, I'm not sure how it is done in collegiate circles, but in public schools, it is really frowned on when teachers enlist the aid of students in teacher/administrator conflicts. Subtle hints can be dropped in classes, but formal statements requesting student/parent involvement would be considered, ironically, unprofessional. In addition, given the types of people living in our community, I suspect they would find the whole matter of so little importance that it would be beneath them to involve themselves. If it had to do with a good teacher being let go, class sizes, poor education, or safety issues, the parents would be all over it. But dress code? I doubt they would even take a step toward the telephone.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Am I recalling correctly that you work in Celebration, Cor?
edit: Sorry... I'm Annie. Just so you don't think random strangers are asking where you live.
[ April 04, 2005, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Susie Derkins ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Wear jeans, t shirts and sneakers in solidarity and protest, I reckon. Who the heck can afford to buy a ton of fancy smacy clothes?
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
Leak what is happening to some of your mature students and their parents, let them bring it up in letters to the editor first, before the teachers start being more vocal about it. Especially if they can come up with reasons why not only does casual dress not hinder learning, but why it HELPS. I remember being more trusting of teachers who looked clean and not ragged, but casual at the same time. I feared the dressed up formal looking teachers, and trusted the ones in the polo and jeans and sneakers.
When I was in high school, Teachers had no power, but once students and parents stood up for them, things started happening. A number of teachers were kept from being unjustly fired that way.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Belle, I can understand that some people think that--I'm just one of the ones who doesn't. And like many issues where there are differences of opinion, I prefer not to have people forcing their views on me, or vice versa.
And since Cor has a legitimate medical reason for wearing sneakers, doubly so. I would hope that a doctor's note isn't necessary, as that seems overly controlling to require one.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
I wouldn't think you'd need student and community involvement at all. The school boards I've had experience with were responsible for district policy, not the principals.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Belle, take this into account. "Professional" dress differs depending on the profession. And working with kids is a particularly dirty profession. For example, take an elementary teacher. She works with glue, paint, snot, pee, poop, vomit, paste, pretty much on a daily basis. In my case, it is more of a mobility issue. Yes, I work with messy materials like dry erase markers and white board grit and grime, but I've also been known to hop on a desk to give a dramatic speech or make a strong point. I've done dance steps to illustrate action verbs. I run around the room constantly to monitor performance and offer advice and assistance. I want for my profession the most durable, comfortable clothing and shoes out there.
I'm not revealing myself. I'm not advertising beer companies across my chest. I'm simply being the teacher I was meant to be. And I get results from my students.
I would NOT be the same teacher in less durable pants, that I couldn't entirely count on not to split if I hopped a desk. I would not be able to circulate the room constantly in shoes that were uncomfortable.
How do I know? Because I worked in a private school for seven years and we had this dress code. I sat on a stool at the front of the room. I was inhibited by my own appearance because I always felt like I was playing dress up. It wasn't me, and middle school students can sense like rabid wolves if you are not comfortable with who you are. I was still a good teacher, but not nearly as enthusiastic, not nearly the teacher I wanted to be and feel I have become. They would comment on "dress down days" that I was much more interesting to listen to and watch while teaching.
It is only my opinion, but I feel "professional dress" must depend on the profession.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Very eloquently put, Cor. How about you link her to this thread? Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Susie,
Yep, Celebration Middle School. I love the school, the teachers, the students, 97 percent of the parents, and my teaching assignment. But this has always been a sore point with me. I would hate to have to leave over it. I think I'm one of the rare teachers that actually LOVES teaching middle-school-aged children. But the high school in town is always looking for teachers...and my husband wears jeans every day.
As for protesting through ignoring the rules, I've already begun that. The dress code is voluntary for the rest of the current school year and mandatory next year. I certainly do not intend to make myself uncomfortable by volunteering for it.
And the school is always hurting for good teachers. The turn over rate is tremendous, partially due to the turn over rate among administrators. If I continue to wear jeans every day, I wonder if they would really fire me. Then again, with someone like this, she may be intending to clean house and start with a nice maleable staff she can bend to her ways from the start, a set of new teachers who don't know how the rules have been in the past and simply need a job.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
This is a middle and elementary school. Students vomit, students are taught how to finger paint, students do messy science experiments, et cetera.
Furthermore, while it is important that teachers be respected, as in other jobs, there is also a need to be accessible, which is weighted far more to less formal dress in a school setting than it is in many settings.
Teacher dress should exist at the intersection of professionalism and practicality, and I think in a middle/elementary school that's below where it is in an office. It is unreasonable to ask an art teacher to not wear clothing that can get paint on it, or to ask a gym teacher to not wear clothing that can get sweaty, or one of many things. Each teacher's situation will be different, and teaching is a highly personalized experience.
I think it is appropriate to ask teachers to dress appropriately, and to let it be known what that standard of appropriateness is generally considered to be. But requiring specific standards of teachers for dressing is belittling them in a way it is not for other professions. Instead, for someone perceived to be dressing inappropriately, have a meeting with them where the issue is discussed openly and honestly.
Not to mention that the whole idea of allowing you to wear jeans on friday seems to acknowledge there's no real point to the dress code except control (which is also true in many other jobs, but they're both typically private and tend to involve far less creative professions than teaching).
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That would be so lame. Then she'd get the sort of teachers that just don't care. I think she should compromise. Good teachers, and I know from experience at my own schools I went to should be treasured and respected.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Cor, our new(now three years of tyranny) superintendent said the same thing, except that we looked more like we came out of the garden, not the beach.
What does your contract say? If there is nothing about a specific dress code, wear what you want. We do.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
And another thng. I don't need heels and panty hose to have my students respect me. I am sorry for teachrs who do.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Silly Cor, posting similar things faster than me.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Thanks for the boost in confidence, Eljay. I won't be doing any linking just yet. I am somewhat high profile in my school. I have a reputation for being the boat rocker, not because I really attack anyone, but because I am determined to state my opinions on any matter. (Hmm....and I'm a Hatracker. Go figure.) I have been playing the dog and pony show for three different principals and three different assistant principals in the past three years. Oohh, I forgot one. Make that four principals in three years. I have grown tired of having to prove my competence. But I'm not quite ready to retire yet....
Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
Cor, your views make sense to me. At the moment, I dress up (suit, or at least smart trousers and jumper) for teaching because otherwise I'll look like a sixth-former, but it can be restricting sometimes (like when you want to stand on tables).
As for the principal, she sounds incredibly difficult to deal with. I'm not sure quite what I'd suggest. Your students will almost certainly notice that you are dressing differently, though, and will probably ask questions - have you thought about what you'll say?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
How/why have the previous principals left, btw?
I know in our district its very hard to get rid of the principals other than voluntarily, so high turnover only happens at stressful schools or when there's a coincidental sequence of occurrences in the principals' personal lives.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
OOOOhhhh, Fugu, excellent point about the jeans on Friday thing. You are totally right. If jeans are okay on Friday, then....? It does defeat the purpose except to show her desire to be a controller. Oh, and I fogot to mention...this is her FIRST principal job. Lucky us.
As for our contract, it simply says "professional dress" with no specifics. That's why many of us are considering ignoring her. But I don't want to end up with the most undesirable teaching schedule next year, either.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
One of my former roommates and her sisters went to school in Celebration. I don't suppose you ever had any Knox girls (all very tall and obsessed with horses) in your class?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You can be just as mobile in khakis, and a nice button down shirt. Even if you have trouble with your feet, (and I have chronic ingrown toenails so I know this) you can be very comfortable in loafers.
I'm not saying teachers should wear three piece suits and high heeled shoes.
I've been to my daughter's school many, many times and been around the kindergarten and elementary classrooms. They have a dress code, the men wear ties, they don't wear jeans or sneakers and I've never seen it hamper a teacher in any way. Most of the females seem to wear khaki pants, or navy pants with nice shirts, some seem to prefer loose cotton dresses.
Now, I'm not trying to be completely contentious here. I understand you have a certain style of dress and you like it and don't want to change. That I can understand - and I sympathize that your new boss is unreasonable and doesn't seem willing to listen to people.
However, I do know that in the working world, you will have bosses that set standards, and you should have to abide by them. It goes along with having a job - especially a job like teaching where you are in the public eye. Your students see you every day, your co-workers, and the parents and public that come by the school. Your principal is well within her rights to set a dress code, and I suspect most parents would not find that an unreasonable thing. Certainly I don't have a problem with my kids principals setting dress standards at the school.
In my opinion - suck it up, try to catch some good sales, and look for a practical, comfortable wardrobe that fits the new dress code and you can still be happy with. Trying to fight it isn't going to do you any good, and will most likely just get you off on the wrong foot with your new boss.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
By the way, the princpal sounds exactly like my ex-business partner and his little crony. Frankly, I'd be far more annoyed with her attitude - if she's like this now, there's more and worse to come. I ended up leaving; if I could stand the way they were running the business I might not have. Of course, if I'd been interested in staying, I wouldn't have let them set such stupid policies. So instead I left to follow my real dream, and bad management was a boon to me.
Unfortunately, it sounds like you're already in the profession of your dreams, so that doesn't help you. Checking the contract is a good idea, and if the union contract is up for renegotiation soon, get it in the contract if it's not.
Dagonee
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
quote: Then again, with someone like this, she may be intending to clean house and start with a nice maleable staff she can bend to her ways from the start, a set of new teachers who don't know how the rules have been in the past and simply need a job.
This wouldn't surprise me at all. I think it's ridiculous for her to be willing to lose good teachers over how they dress.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Elizabeth,
I agree with the heels and panty hose opinion. If that's what a teacher WANTS to wear, great! If that is what makes her comfortable, great! If she has a need to wear it, like she feels it makes her look older and that is the image she wants to portray, great! But every teacher is unique. (and usually a little eccentric) And what works for one will most certainly not work for all. And no matter what anyone says, I firmly do not believe that better dress will gain an INEFFECTIVE teacher respect. It might work for a few days, but students, especially in middle and high school, will see through that in fast time. Nor will jeans turn a good, effective teacher into some kind of drooling moron on the tape-free elementary school floor.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Seems to me that a middle school teacher should be able to dress on the modest end of what a middle schooler would wear. It can enhance connection -- not that I'm a middle school teacher, but I drive a bunch of them around and I do dress very much like they do, just not as tight. My blue hair helps establish some connection, as they see me more as cool than authoritative. For what that's worth.
In HS, the two best teachers I had were on opposite ends of the dress spectrum. My english teacher wore nice cords and a tie every day. My biology teacher had a ponytail, wore jeans and a flannel shirt every day. He was a licensed guide too, which he did in the summer. (This was in Alaska.) He was fascinating because he really knew geology & biology...the clothes he wore really fit who he was.
For me, I'd be seriously tempted to wear the letter of the law but not the spirit...as in, wear nice pieces that don't match. Or wear nice pieces that were stylish 15 years ago. Goodwill would be very helpful with this.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Elizabeth, nope, no Knox girls.
Belle, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I've popped plenty of buttons on button down shirts trying to be overly mobile or enthusiastic, and khaki just doesn't hold up the way jeans do. As for loafers, I had them. My feet roll inward. I walk on the sides of my shoes. And I have large, deformed toenails that can't take pressure of any kind without digging into my skin. My options have always been strong leather sneakers, or cheap sneakers that I'm willing to replace when they start to roll. Or I can wear grandma's "special support" shoes, but I really would prefer not to and they would still have to have give on the tops while supporting on the sides.
As for "sucking it up" my feeling is this. Teachers "suck up" far too much as it is. We suck up insufficient pay. We suck up outrageously overloaded classrooms (I had two of 38 this year) and the rest were pretty close. We suck up phrases like "Those who can't, teach." I'm tired of sucking it up. The more we suck up, the more they pour in our glass.
[ April 04, 2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Fugu, the other principals left for a variety of reasons. The first left when the high school broke off and got a campus of its own. He's the one who hired me. He looked at my resume, not my clothes, and even made a comment about how he would much rather have the teacher who did different accents while teaching grammar to keep the students' attention than the one wearing a business suit. I loved him. He retired from the high school a year ago where he will always be remembered for playing the "Chicken Dance" during the changing of classes and singing "Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to class we go" on the p.a..
The second one was another impeccably dressed lady who did not hire me when I had first gone to her for a job. She worked with the man I mentioned in the above paragraph. They were co-principals. She looked me up and down from hair to shoes. And I WAS dressed in khakis and a nice button-down shirt at the time. This, apparently, was insufficient. She met me four times through my husband before she could even remember my name. However, once I got hired, we worked well together. She never really cared what went on with my clothes so long as I never got any parent complaints about my teaching. She trusted me to do my job and she didn't try to change me. She was eventually driven out by the parents in the community over a conflict with a beloved assistant principal. _As I said, our parents have serious power.
The third was an interim principal who came in for about six months until a new permanent principal could be found. She was previously retired and doing the job as a favor to someone on the school board. She wore jeans and jean dresses. I loved her. She always spoke her mind and thoroughly respected me for speaking mine. "You're going to be trouble," she once told me, pointing a finger at me and smiling. And "You're really good at what you do, but no one ever tells you that, do they?" In the few months she was there, she managed to actually get more money for our school from the board, even though we owed money due to budget mishaps with the previous principal. This was unheard of, given the fact that the entire county sees our school as incredibly spoiled as it is. We were able to hire several new teachers and my class sizes were reduced...because of her. Her priorities were right. She made an incredible difference in student/staff morale in such a short time. I miss her terribly. She left when we hired the dress code queen. Sigh. She could have taken the job, coasted along knowing she wasn't there permanently, and left. But that wasn't the way she did things.
[ April 04, 2005, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
What sorority is she in?
quote: As I said, our parents have serious power.
You should get a group of the most loved teachers to go to them and throw a hissy fit. If they think this PYT is going to cause a group of their favorites to quite it might suck the power out of her power trip.
Then again, she sounds like a first class, power-hungry (till she finds her rich husband) pain in the ass. But, the good news is that she's already scheming how to get the hell out of the school she's currently trapped in. So, either introduce her to a rich guy (whose relocating soon) or make sure she gets glowing performance reviews so she can be promoted out of your school quickly.
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
(The reason I ask about the sorority is because we had that same principal at one of our schools. (Blond, pretty, tiny,brand new as a principal, young, impeccably dressed and groomed, superficial, ineffective, and gone in a year. And I'll be damned if I can remember the name of her sorority, but she told us the first time we met her.) I can't imagine having to teach under her. But then again, I don't have much patience for inanity.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
I don't know if she belonged to a sorority. I don't believe she's mentioned one. But it may be in tomorrow's "morning words of glee" in the mailbox.
In her first email to the staff, a couple of months ago, she called us the "Best staff she had ever worked with." She'd been there about four days. How could she possibly know? I hate false sentiments.
[ April 04, 2005, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I'm distrustful of people in suits. To this day, I get nervous around them, especially men. Guys my age in suits often look ridiculous to me. Women in suits don't bother me as much, but I still watch my wallet. In general, I associate cold, dispassion with uniforms, including suits, and these are not positive connotations. Strangely, I'm completely at ease with all medical uniforms. Maybe it's because my mom's a nurse.
If you are under forty-five, and you aren't some sort of elected official, I just don't see why you need to wear a suit. There is an element of poser game-playing, or something, that goes along with it.
[ April 04, 2005, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Morning words of glee! gahahhaha! Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
Is it people of all races or just white men in suits that creep you out? I mean, is it like white women that clutch their purses a bit closer when a black man walks by?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I don't know. I know it's not the same with women. I just always imagine that a young man in a suit is either up to some scam or is play acting. Either way, they are not to be respected or trusted, and are probably either taking themselves too seriously or exploiting me.
My ex was an elementary school teacher who dressed up for the kids. I never noticed how well she dressed on schooldays, until she mentioned it. She always looked good to me, so I didn't think too much about it.
[ April 04, 2005, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I'd just stick with Khaki's and not have a conflict. Yes, it is annoying...and I think she dealt with the situation incorrectly. However, dress codes in the work place are not that unusual. If your feet hurt, buy a nice pair of "dress" sneakers. They have sneakers that are all white or all black that you could wear.
I do agree with you that she is dealing with the situation incorrectly, and is not acting professional...but sometimes you just have to do what you boss wants. You might be able to make waves, and get other teachers involved. You might even be able to win the argument (though I think it would be a long shot). However, you are going to have to work with this woman potentially for a long time. You just have to ask yourself if it is worth making her mad.
I guess I am a bit biased, because the job I am taking next year will require me to wear a dress shirt and a tie for the next 35 years or so and it doesn't really bother me (though they will be paying me more...so I guess I can put up with a lot).
Either way, I hope things work out for you. Having an annoying supervisor at work can make life tough. I've had to deal with people like your principal, and I know that its no fun...and I had the knowledge that my supervisor was relatively short term.
[ April 04, 2005, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Lupus ]
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Well, not to turn this into another "teachers get crappy pay" thread, if they were paying me more to wear it, I'd still be irritated...but a lot less so.
One teacher's argument FOR the dress code while playing devil's advocate was, "Well, we wanted to be treated like professionals. Maybe we should dress like them. Maybe we brought this on ourselves."
My response is still, professional dress depends on the profession. However, if you want us to dress by your standards of professionalism, then pay us by the same standards of professionalism.
In a different email/speech, she addressed the issue of parents who constantly showed up thirty-forty minutes late for conferences, if they showed up at all. Teachers were losing their entire planning periods waiting for no-shows. We requested that we be able to leave after 15 minutes and ask the parent to reschedule, given that we only get 45 minutes to plan, run errands, write tests, etc., each day. After all, if we are professionals, well, in doctors' offices the patient usually ends up waiting a good long time, not the other way around. Same with lawyers, dentists, and other "accepted" professionals.
Her response was, "Well folks," (these are pretty much her exact words), "you are in the service industry. Bring some work to do and wait the whole forty-five minutes." Number one, in Orlando, the service industry means sheet-changers and burger flippers and while there is nothing wrong with these professions, it is not what I do. Secondly, there are an awful lot of chores that I carry out during my planning period that cannot simply be "brought with me" to sit and wait in an otherwise empty meeting room. Do I believe for one minute that if I dress more professionally according to her standards that SHE will treat me like a professional? Nope.
As for the all white or all black sneakers, that's what I wear now (with the exception of a very tiny Mickey Mouse on the side) I do live in Celebration, Florida, after all. Apparently, these are still unacceptable.
[ April 04, 2005, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Either way, they are not to be respected or trusted
Irami, I have a suggestion for you: condition yourself to have better first impressions of other people. Start expecting the best from people - you might start seeing it.
Seriously, it seems like you go out of your way to see the worst in people.
Dagonee
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I really want to sympathize, Cor, but it's hard when I keep pulling up mental images of plunging a guests toilet at 3am in a full suit, tie and dress shoes (only to find it plugged with a syringe). I would sweat like a dog and, if management was around, I wasn't allowed to remove my coat and tie for any reason.
I also have bad feet (and a terrible back). Part of the job description was to stand for 8 hours a day and take my lunch on my feet.
God, I'm glad I'm out of the hospitality industry.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Does your school sell t-shirts, polos, or sweatshirts for fundraising? I used to work in a very stuffy environment where polos were not allowed. We were, however, allowed to wear polos with our company's name on them. If your boss objects, ask her in an incredulous tone, "What, you have something against school spirit!?"
Khakis are ok, especially if you buy the non-wrinkle kind. Curdoroy pants are also comfortable.
[ April 04, 2005, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
You know, most people in the service industry are provided with uniforms and name tags.
What does your contract say? Do you have one? Is there a dress code in it? Are the rules of the contract Do you have any recourse? Does she actually have the power to force you to?
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Primal Curve, you have my utmost sympathy and assurance that those dress requirements for those tasks were absolutely ridiclous. And if I saw you doing those tasks in a suit and tie, I would be far more likely to laugh at the ridiculousness of it than think, "Man, he certainly looks professional in that suit and tie." The goal of the dress code to impress me would not have been reached at all. Don't get me wrong. I like to look at people who dress well. But sending a sanitation worker out in a tux, for example, is silly.
And before I am taken the wrong way and accidentally offend someone, I am neither saying that your situation was laughable, nor am I making any sort of comparison, positive or negative, between the hospitality industry and the sanitation department.
[ April 04, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
quote: Khakis are ok, especially if you buy the non-wrinkle kind. Curdoroy pants are also comfortable.
For you.
I know some people who would be comfortable in a tuxedo. Just because you are comfortable in it, doesn't mean it's comfortable.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't know.. Corporate dudes in suits are a bit scary... Yet, other dudes in suits are intriguing. I guess it depends on their motives and who they are... Politicians
One of the things I dread about trying to transition into the workforce is CLOTHES. Respectable female clothes scare me.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Beren, I am allowed to wear company logo polos...of which I own...one.
Jack, I agree. I am not personally comfortable in khakis or corduroy (and I'm not sure I can spell it at this hour, either ) which is why I feel that anything unrevealing, clean, unripped, and not promoting anything inappropraite should be fine. The contract is not specific but as I mentioned earlier, our union is apparently so weak that it is unwilling to address this issue.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Irami, I have a suggestion for you: condition yourself to have better first impressions of other people. Start expecting the best from people - you might start seeing it.
Seriously, it seems like you go out of your way to see the worst in people.
Man, I'm cool. The stakes are too high for me to start messing around with that self-delusion. It's only been ten years or so that I've been confident enough to trust myself in my judgments and articulate what I see. Thanks for caring, though.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Elastic waist band khakis are the most comfortable pants I've ever worn. The fabric is cool and does not limit your legs' range of motion the way jeans do. You never have to struggle to get in or out of them or undo a button when you visit a buffet. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Well, fine, Irami. Nice to know if you ever see me (or had seen me 8 years ago - I'm not sure what age you are) that I'm not to be respected or trusted, and are probably either taking myself too seriously or exploiting you.
[ April 04, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I shudder to think what Irami would say upon meeting me in a suit.
------
That said....
quote: However, I do know that in the working world, you will have bosses that set standards, and you should have to abide by them.
Belle, part of the issue here is that Cor was not hired in to serve beneath this boss. In many jobs -- including mine and hers -- bosses come and go, selected by "administration" to "manage" people who have been doing their job generally admirably for decades.
Being required to "abide" by the whims and ridiculous managerial fashions -- and I'm talking about more than clothing, here -- currently favored by the Arrogant New Boss of the Week is in fact one of the most annoying parts of my industry, and I'm sure that it's even worse in teaching, where bosses are often elected.
I have yet to work for a manager for whom I've had any actual respect. I get my job done despite them -- and don't feel that this is an unusual attitude.
[ April 04, 2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Cor, I wasn't a sanitation worker. I was a hotel desk clerk.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Cor-
When we institute a new policy at work, we have all the employees sign that they understand and agree to follow the new policy. If we were to terminate someone based on a new rule that they had not agreed to as a term of their employment, we would be libel for wrongful termination.
Did you and your colleagues agree to abide by the new principal's policy?
[ April 04, 2005, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: LadyDove ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:First, she commented that half the faculty looks like it is going to the beach instead of work. Next, she read us all a little poem about how "Professionalism Begins With Appearance" which was incredibly condescending.
This woman obviously has no HR training whatsoever. You are not going to get people to comply with your policies if you follow up an insult by condescending to them. A poem? That's just ridiculous. If she wants to be taken seriously, then she shouldn't trivialize the issue with an annoying poem (I actually really want to hear the poem - it sounds awesomely bad).
quote:When someone voiced that this would cost money her reply was, "Don't give me that excuse. Walmart has nice clothes."
That is totally out of line. She has no idea of the financial status of the faculty and staff, nor is it her business.
Regardless of how I feel about this issue (personally, I love strict dress codes and I think that all students should wear uniforms), this woman is approaching it in the wrong way and she is not being respectful to people who she needs to have respect from. I'd wait for her to dig her own grave - if she's like this about a dress code, imagine what she'll do about other issues.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Beren, I personally find khakis reasonably comfortable, but in my line of work, they wear out very quickly. That's why I currently don't own a pair of slacks. I had some at the beginning of the year, but I wore holes in them. Jeans simply last much longer.
-o-
PC, she specifically did not say you were a sanitation worker. Rather, this was an example of a similarly ridiculous hypothetical dress code. (You also weren't wearing a tux, were you?)
-o-
I've never seen a university where professors had a dress code. Most of my professors wore jeans and a shirt with a collar, though a few wore ties and one or two wore jackets. So that's where I get my impression of what the definition of "professional attire" for teachers: nothing excessively revealing, nothing dirty or clearly damaged, nothing with inappropriate messages or with advertising, and no T-shirts. I look at the pinnacle of professionalism in my profession:professors and that pretty much defines what the dress code ought to be for me.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"(personally, I love strict dress codes and I think that all students should wear uniforms),"
I would love to wear a uniform. I do, basically. Pants, short-sleeved shirt or turtleneck under sweater, dorky shoes. In hot weather, capri pants with dorky sandals and some sort of light t-shirt.
I hate figuring out what to wear. If I find a pair of pants I like, I get them in all colors. Same with shirts. So a uniform would be great, as long as there were no skirts involved.
Thing is, no child in a public school, at least in Massachusetts, HAS to wear a uniform, even if it is the dress code. It can only be strongly suggested. Last I knew.
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
What about colored jeans? You know like really dark black or very very dark blue.
I have a few pairs most people can't even tell are jeans.
[ April 05, 2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: sarahdipity ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I sell suits for a living...and I am white.
Guess who will never trust me now?
What a shame....
Good thing I am not "fat" by most standards, or we could listen to Irami talk about how I am fake, exploiting him, and morally inadequate.
[ April 05, 2005, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
For what it's worth, I don't trust you.
And I ain't to sure about your morals either.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
* Pies Icky's jeans *
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Depending on your area, nice jeans and a shirt may be MORE appropriate for teachers than skirts and suits. When I taught in the downtown public school, students and parents were less comfortable with me when I dressed up every day. They seemed to trust me more when I dressed closer to the way they dressed. The students (love middle school honesty) wanted me to be "comfortable" and not "uptight". In a rich suburban area, it might be more appropriate to wear dressier clothing.
When it comes to appropriate dress, you need to consider function, your clients' expectations, and the image you want to portray.
How frustrating to have administration so focused on a very small part of education! What would happen if all the teachers collectively decided to ignore the dress code and wear what they would have before? A silent protest of sorts... Would she really fire everybody? What would the Teacher's Union say?
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I have to agree with Belle's comment. I've been teaching high school for 24 years, and i am disturbed by the sloppy dress of some younger teachers who DO look more like they're dressing for the beach than as degree-holding professionals. One of the issues in New Zealand, where I live, is the view that the public takes of teachers. It's important to us (and we have a very strong union) that the public sees us as professionals, and that means presenting a particular standard of dress, as the most visible and obvious thing that parents see. No, the way you dress may not make any difference to the kind of teacher you are, but if we expect students to dress to a certain standard then we ought to hold to at least as high a standard ourselves. Now I'm not saying that Cor is dressing 'scruffily', I'm just talking general principles here. I'm an Art teacher and have never worn a tie to school, but I do try to dress in 'smart casual' clothes. At my school we have several teachers whose dress is pretty bad. They are talked to by the Senior Leadership Team, their sense of professionalism is appealed to, and they are left to decide what they will do. Most of them ignore the guidance. They're not penalised in any way, but they do tend to be looked at askance. Your principal sounds like a patronising biddy, out of touch with her teachers, and in need of some guidance on how to handle a very sensitive issue.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:No, the way you dress may not make any difference to the kind of teacher you are, . . .
Actually, I think it does. In my case, I think dressing up too much makes me less effective.
quote:. . . but if we expect students to dress to a certain standard then we ought to hold to at least as high a standard ourselves.
That's not in dispute, really. I specifically mentioned above what "professional dress" means to me, and that is quite a bit more stringent than the dress code the students are held to. As I look around the kids straggling in this morning, I see most in T-shirts, quite a few in ripped clothing, some revealing clothes, and some pants not at the waist. I think teachers should look neater than this, I simply think that jeans that fit well, are in good condition, and are clean fit this guideline.
EDIT to fix UBB code.
[ April 05, 2005, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
quote:I hate figuring out what to wear. If I find a pair of pants I like, I get them in all colors. Same with shirts.
Lol, me too!!! Twice a year, in the late fall and spring, I go out and buy new clothes for the season, but they're almost always identical to the clothes they're replacing, which in turn were almost identical to each other. At the moment, my work wardrobe consists of a particular pair of slacks and a particular sweater, each in 5 different colors/patterns.
I think that, for me, it's more of a defense mechanism than anything. It takes me ages to find a piece of clothing that I feel good in, and if I start experimenting, I usually end up hating how I look. I have a couple of coworkers who obviously put a lot of thought into their outfits every morning, and I occasionally get a disapproving glance from one of them.
Cor, I'm 100% on your side in this. There wasn't a dress code when you took the job, and if someone wants to implement one now, this isn't the way to do it. This woman sounds like a real piece of work. I say start looking at the high school!
Posted by RedHddBoy (Member # 7561) on :
Anyone who suggests examples of how khakis are comfortable or those who are even using medical reasons for why non-sneakers can't be worn are missing the point. Nor is the prices at Wal-Mart or the availability of sales for "nicer" clothes the point either. Unless Cor has recieved complaints(or any of the other teachers for that matter)she shouldn't have to change her style at all.
The point of "professional" dress, to me, is the same as being called "Mr." or "Ms." It assumes a certain level of respect. I currently work in both a public elementary school and a residential school (students with serious behavior problems). I can tell you that a teacher's level of education, their professional dress, nor the title of Mr or Ms is near as important as the true measure of respect, good rapport with the students. It would seem that dressing up would serve the purpose of impressing other teachers, administrators, parents, other adults.
What are we really there for? That's right, the kids. It is entirely about the kids. Whenever we get away from that, we become ineffectual. At a previous residential program I worked at (half of it was a school program) I lobbied the staff and admin to abolish the "Mr." from my name. It annoyed me because we shouldn't assume that we are better than the kids. Besides Mr Rob doesn't get along better with kids than regular Rob.
The other problem is the automatic assumption that Jeans and Sneakers means that you come to school dressed like you spent the morning painting your house. Nor does it mean that you are actully dressing like a teenager. Whatever the standards for dress are for Casual Fridays, those can be applied to the rest of the week. Besides your 'professional' dress won't even be an issue with parents. Whether your a good or bad teacher to their kids is what parents care about.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
LadyDove, nope, we have not agreed to abide by this policy. And I DO wonder what would happen if we simply chose to ignore her requests and continued to wear what we have worn for years. But I have otherwise been so happy with my job for the past three years that I would hate to mess up all the things that HAVE been working for me. I definitely will keep your information in mind, however. Thanks.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Elizabeth and Zeugma,
I do that too! I am an extremely hard person to fit in clothing. Tiny waist, big hips are my problems, so anything that fits one place doesn't fit in another. I finally found a brand of jeans that doesn't hang off my waist in order to fit my hips. I bought them in all colors when I dropped 25 pounds a year ago. I didn't buy anything else, so all my other clothes from the private school years are two to three sizes too big for me now. I can't wear any of them. This really will mean purchasing an entirely new wardrobe for me. Now some people would love that excuse to shop. Personally, aside from the financial burden, I really hate shopping for clothes.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Sarahdipity,
It is my current understanding that all jeans in all colors are unacceptable. I will investigate that further, but that is what has been said. If I could wear jeans in black, white, beige, brown, or army green, I would not be complaining. I'm not that picky. I just want functionality and durability of material. I can get one but not the other in khakis.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Cor, my pants of choice for a while were these stretch khakis from JC Penney. They were Trader Bay or something? Anyway, they were so comfortable. I had two pairs of black, two regular khaki, and one stone. I could not find any in navy, or I would have gotten two of those as well.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
I personally do not see anything wrong with imposing a dress code upon a work place. I have to go to work everyday in a suit and high heels, and I wouldn't say that my job is anymore inherently important than a teacher's is. I think that kids would be more inclined to obey and listen to someone who is wearing professional clothes, but maybe not so inclined to approach such a person if a problem occurs in school or their personal life. I suppose it's more of a give and take than anything else.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:" posted April 04, 2005 08:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (The reason I ask about the sorority is because we had that same principal at one of our schools. (Blond, pretty, tiny,brand new as a principal, young, impeccably dressed and groomed, superficial, ineffective, and gone in a year. And I'll be damned if I can remember the name of her sorority, but she told us the first time we met her.) I can't imagine having to teach under her. But then again, I don't have much patience for inanity."
Do you think that comments such as this may give the impression that you are showing a slight bigotry towards good-looking people (mostly women)? One of the most obnoxious experiences in life often occurs when people assume that because another individual is good-looking they are either 1) dumb 2) only got the job because of their looks and 3) must not have a "serious" job afterall.
Posted by RedHddBoy (Member # 7561) on :
FIJC, without defending the profession of teaching being more valuable than anything else. I think that it is not the point to have children simply 'listen' and 'obey'. Plenty of children sit in our classrooms, sitting quietly, not causing a fuss. It's much more important for them to 'learn'. And for that you need a connection, not simply obedience.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Belle, part of the issue here is that Cor was not hired in to serve beneath this boss. In many jobs -- including mine and hers -- bosses come and go, selected by "administration" to "manage" people who have been doing their job generally admirably for decades.
What are you advocating Tom? That is a new boss comes in and asks you to do something you should be able to say "I wasn't hired under you so I don't have to do it." Like a stepchild who tells his new stepfather "I don't have to do it because you're not my real daddy?"
It doesn't matter who you were hired under. If you are in a profession where you are expected to work under someone elses' authority, then you must respect that authority. If a new administrator comes in, you have two choices - either do what they tell you to, or leave.
I've not always been a stay-at-home mom, you know. I've worked in the corporate world, and in education - for a university. I know exactly what you're talking about - I had three bosses when I worked for UAB. And guess what? I had to do what I was told by all three. And all three did things different ways. One didn't care how I did the paperwork I was assigned, so long as it got done. Another insisted that it be done in the morning, and wanted us to finish it all before doing anything else. One even had different standards for dress - just like this. We used to be able to wear business casual every day, but he changed that to only allowing business casual on Fridays. I changed the way I dressed on Monday-Thursday.
I am astounded that people don't seem to think they should have to adapt for a new boss. That's part of working and everyone that has a job has to face it.
Cor can make an issue of this. She can continue to wear jeans in defiance, or she can loudly complain and make a lot of noise. But if she does, she should know that those actions may well have consequences she doesn't like.
Or, she can invest in a different wardrobe and do what her boss tells her to do. I think that's the smarter solution. Whether she likes this person or not, this person is her boss, and part of getting along in the world and making money is to do what is expected of you by your boss. And one thing that bosses get to do in this world is set dress codes.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
(Just a clarification, not an argument: In point of fact, the contract does not specify that she has that right. The union acknowledges that she does not, but simply does not feel it is worth their effort to pursue.)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If that's the case, then wide-spread disregarding of the rule will work. One person disregarding invites retaliation (bad schedule, etc.). Retaliation against the whole staff is much harder.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:In a different email/speech, she addressed the issue of parents who constantly showed up thirty-forty minutes late for conferences, if they showed up at all. Teachers were losing their entire planning periods waiting for no-shows. We requested that we be able to leave after 15 minutes and ask the parent to reschedule, given that we only get 45 minutes to plan, run errands, write tests, etc., each day. After all, if we are professionals, well, in doctors' offices the patient usually ends up waiting a good long time, not the other way around. Same with lawyers, dentists, and other "accepted" professionals.
Her response was, "Well folks," (these are pretty much her exact words), "you are in the service industry. Bring some work to do and wait the whole forty-five minutes." Number one, in Orlando, the service industry means sheet-changers and burger flippers and while there is nothing wrong with these professions, it is not what I do. Secondly, there are an awful lot of chores that I carry out during my planning period that cannot simply be "brought with me" to sit and wait in an otherwise empty meeting room. Do I believe for one minute that if I dress more professionally according to her standards that SHE will treat me like a professional? Nope.
Wow, I don't know how I missed this. This really crosses the line. First, teachers are not in the service industry, they are in education. Second, she is telling her staff that their time is not as important as whatever the parents are doing that is making them late. It seems that she is already taking the sides of parents over her teachers and that is a huge mistake.
I wonder how long she would wait if y'all were late to a staff meeting? Would she stick around for 45 minutes? After all, she is in the service industry. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The handbook says "professional dress" does it not?
I don't know of many places where jeans and sneakers is considered professional dress.
If the handbook doesn't specifically spell out the dress code, then I would expect that someone in authority has the ability to set the standards whether it's the principal or the school board.
Most good handbooks don't leave room for this type of ambiguity, it solves a lot of problems. Perhaps to make things easier, someone should suggest an updating of the handbook?
They need my mom. This is one of the things she does as an independent human resources consultant. She goes in, evaluates handbooks, and makes suggestions to prevent problems like this, though she doesn't write actual handbooks for people - she recommends they hire an attorney with HR experience to do the actual writing.
Maybe it's her influence that has me so astounded by this thread, because another thing she does is speak on image and professionalism. I have even assisted and done presentations with her, and hope to do more as her independent work grows and my kids get older.
Dress isn't all that defines professionalism, but it's part of it. And I truly do think that teachers should dress better than their students.
In fact, if I came to my kids school for a conference (which I wouldn't be 45 minutes late for ) and the teacher was in sneakers and jeans I would not be impressed nor would I be pleased. In fact, I dress better than that when I go to a meeting at the school - out of respect for the professionals I'm meeting with. If I showed up at the meeting and found I was more professionally dressed than the teachers or administrators, it would bother me.
*shrug* Maybe that's just me, or my mom's influence, like I said. But I do believe that if you want to be taken seriously as a professional, you should act like one. And no, dress isn't all there is, but it's a part of it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
As long as a teacher was dressed in clothes that were clean, well taken care of, and not obscene, I would not feel comfortable or uncomfortable based on their appearance in a meeting with them. (If they hadn't washed, that might be a different matter.) I would feel comfortable or uncomfortable based on what they were saying and how they were addressing my concerns about my child's education and welfare. I think in many situations I would respect the opinions of a teacher who was dressed to hang out with kids more than one who was dressed for the office.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
First off, I certainly hope that my displeasure with and desire to change an administrative mandate is not being directly compared to a child and a step-parent. I am a mature and competent adult who can decide for herself what kinds of responses she wants from students (and parents), not a child who needs guidance and has not matured enough to know what may or may not be good for him or her.
Secondly, in the parent/teacher conference you referred to, if this teacher had thoroughly taught your child all the material, contacted you if and when there was ever a problem, responded to emails and voicemails within 24 hours consistently, and had a wonderful rapport with your child, would you still be "displeased" that she wore jeans and sneakers? If so, that saddens me.
Parents show up at conferences in a wide variety of fashions, everything from Disney uniforms, to jeans, to business suits. None of it phases me one way or the other and I do not pass judgments based on the clothes they decide to wear to meet with me. I merely take their clothing as a reflection of their lives and the tasks they need to perform. The only type of attire that we whisper about behind parents' backs is the kind that is extremely revealing or so skin tight that it reveals each body part in high definition. And even that, I suppose, is somewhat hypocritical on my part. For all I know, that kind of attire is part of his/her job requirement (hmm...).
In my polo shirt, I am still one step more nicely dressed than my students who predominantly wear t-shirts so I am a bit more "formal" without being so far removed from them that I am unapproachable.
Again, though, Belle, I am not trying to get defensive on you (or anyone else), and I welcome debate. Clearly we are not going to convince one another to change opinions on this and that's fine. I simply wanted to vent as stated in the thread's title, and I was looking to make sure I wasn't entirely out in left field by being upset/annoyed by this. Clearly from the responses here on the forum and all over my campus, I am not. Will I actually do anything about it? I haven't decided yet. But the suggestions by all are appreciated.
[ April 05, 2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I am astounded that people don't seem to think they should have to adapt for a new boss."
I personally believe that new bosses, by and large, should make an effort to adapt to their existing employees first. That they do not do this is a symptom of the tyranny of middle management.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
On the up-side, I had my follow-up meeting with the assistant principal about my yearly observation today. I had done a lesson on participles vs. gerunds with my honors class. I received an incredibly favorable review, perhaps the most positive I've ever gotten. However, a good amount of credit must go to the class. They were really on task, showing off their knowledge for the assistant principal, and extremely well-behaved. I was thrilled with the students, and my follow-up meeting. The ASSISTANT principal made no comments about my appearance, either positive or negative, and yes, I was wearing jeans and sneakers. He only commented on my performance. Perhaps with him in the office, a balance can be reached between the assistant principal and the principal.
[ April 05, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think that the problem is not respecting the wishes of a new boss, it's being forced to bend under and pretend that this condescending attitude of this principal's is OK.
Obviously making statements like, "Don't give me that excuse. Walmart has nice clothes," is not making her any friends in her work. That would make me so completely blindingly angry... Especially if this lady's wearing high fashion.
I agree that one should respect the wishes of a new boss and be helpful when someone is trying to find their footing in a new situation. I don't believe that a person should have to take crap from a new boss just because they're A. new or B. the boss. It's obvious that this lady doesn't think very highly of the people she's working above, or if she does, she's pretty damn bad at showing it.
There are a lot of bad managers, this I agree with. But there'll continue to be even more if people just let it happen.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Cor,
I'd have to side with the boss on this one, not out of a matter of principle, but as a matter of so what. Besides shoes-- a woman should be the master of her own shoes-- I don't think that your boss is being unreasonable.
She is the administrator. She comes with quirks. At the end of the day, she does paper work and you teach kids. You are a hero and she is a secretary.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: you have two choices - either do what they tell you to, or leave.
Belle, later in the same post you say Cor or other teachers can challenge the dress code.
Also, I wonder why vagueness in the handbook defaults to the management POV? I would look at it the opposite way.
Tom, you made a good point about new managers' adjusting to the group they try to manage. The "my way or the highway" style may work in the Army, but in business it just irks people, leads to turnover of creative types, and encourages sycophants.
Irami, good to know you have different standards of knee-jerk reactions for men, women, over-weight people , medical professionals, etc. Remind me to dress as a nurse when I cross the room to avoid you, in case you might mug me.
[ April 05, 2005, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
It's funny, I support it when people gush over firefighters. At which time, supporting a person because of their profession seems honorable. I have a soft spot for teachers, and I like that some vendors offer a teachers discount.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I think that Cor should wear whatever works for her.
But as a sidenote:
I recently started wearing ties to work 2-3 times a week.
Our somewhat-official dress code for men is "liberal office casual" -- no jeans and the shirt has to have a collar. There are usually only two or three times a year when we are required to wear a tie.
People kept asking me if I had a job interview. But I told everybody that if I really was trying to look more professional, I'd shave every day (instead of once or twice a week).
I originally started the tie thing because I felt sorry for all of the ties in my closet that only came out on Sundays. Plus I was sick of wearing dress shirts with a big gaping neck -- I'm a skinny guy and it just doesn't work on me. I could switch from dress shirts to polo shirts, but I've always hated polo/golf shirts.
I have to say, that it's working for me. I like it. I don't find ties uncomfortable, and I enjoy having an accessory where I can throw in a bit of color and pattern to the mix without having to wear plaid pants or some crazy striped shirt. Plus I simply look good.
It would be a different matter if I had to wear a suit. I'm not fond of suits -- I'm a nice trousers or khakis and sports coat kind of guy.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote: In fact, I dress better than that when I go to a meeting at the school - out of respect for the professionals I'm meeting with. If I showed up at the meeting and found I was more professionally dressed than the teachers or administrators, it would bother me.
As Cor noted, when I go to a parent/teacher coference, my ONLY concern is how well my child is performing/enjoying/or behaving in school. Maybe it's different for elementary school, but the only bad teachers my kids have had are the ones who came to school in skirts and heels. These women made themselves unavailable to run in the grass or play basketball with the kids. They couldn't do the messy art projects and the "professional" clothing was like a protective barrier between themselves and the kids.
Last week we were talking about the way professional dress has changed. My salespeople wear a suit and tie maybe once a month. Most of the time they wear khaki's and a polo shirt. They are more relaxed with the clients when they aren't afraid of dirtying themselves by carrying the chair into the office or getting down on their knees to measure an individual. In addition to this, the client is more comfortable because, surprise! the clients are dressed the same way.
Since the teacher's profession is to teach and be a role model for our kids, I'm impressed by someone who comes to the classroom with a well-dressed mind who is willing and *able* to do the job. I'll take enthusiam over pressed pants any day of the week
[ April 05, 2005, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: LadyDove ]
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Yeah, I agree with you about that Lady Dove. Thinking about it, the teachers I liked the least for their insensitive and condescending teaching style were the ones who were dressed up the most.
I agree with Cor, and I say this even being a fan of suits and ties. My Daddy wore a suit and tie every day he went to work until I was probably sixteen or seventeen. I have fond memories of giving him hugs goodbye.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote:First, teachers are not in the service industry, they are in education.
I think teachers can be said to be in the service industry. However, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. can also be said to be in the service industry. Their (and my) job consists of serving the public and their clients.
Professional dress depends on what the profession is and what the circumstances are. I almost always wear jeans to work and I'm a senior engineer. Nobody has ever said one word about it. I do wear nicer clothes to meetings and will occasionally even wear a tie. If I'm meeting a client in the field at a job site, I will go back to my trusty jeans. I will likely be trudging through woods, handling dirt and generally doing physical work beyond sitting at a desk - the same as Cor apparently does.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:I've never seen a university where professors had a dress code. Most of my professors wore jeans and a shirt with a collar, though a few wore ties and one or two wore jackets. So that's where I get my impression of what the definition of "professional attire" for teachers: nothing excessively revealing, nothing dirty or clearly damaged, nothing with inappropriate messages or with advertising, and no T-shirts. I look at the pinnacle of professionalism in my profession: professors and that pretty much defines what the dress code ought to be for me.
And then there was the professor at the med school where I used to work. She wore provocative and unnecessarily revealing clothes on many occasions. For example, one time she wore a suit jacket that closed only across the bust, with nothing underneath.
I thought that was very unprofessional. Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
Well, it might be very professional.
Just not for a professor.
She could be a professional at something else.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I never said I would accept a bad teacher simply because she was dressed well or that being well dressed was my only criteria of what fits a good teacher. And any of you who know me at all know better than that, so quit trying to make it look as if I'm a snob who only cares how teachers dress.
Of course I want a good teacher for my kids - in fact I will go so far as to say I won't accept anything less. If I think a teacher isn't do a good job I'm going to speak up about it, and if she's the best dressed teacher in the world that won't matter.
I do, however, respect professionalism. I respect it enough to dress somewhat professionally myself when meeting with professionals. And I do not accept the premise that a teacher can't be an effective teacher unless she dresses in jeans and sneakers.
Sorry, that's an excuse. It's an excuse to wear whatever you want to and not be held to standards.
My kids have excellent teachers. They also have dress codes that requires them to dress professionally, and at that school jeans and sneakers isn't considered professional.
That doesn't mean teachers should look like investment bankers. My oldest's middle school math and science teacher wears outlandish ties - he's a sports nut and wears ties with sports team logos on them and sometimes wears ones with cartoon characters on them. A tie with the tasmanian devil on it isn't the proper attire for most professionals, but it is for middle school teachers. The kids love him, and respond to him. Even my daughter who said before the year started that she hated math and science and yet now loves his classes.
He's able to have rapport with the kids, and relate to them and still maintain a standard of dress that in my mind, is appropriate for a teacher.
My daughter's first grade teacher never wears jeans and sneakers and yet she is the most hands-on, get on the floor, get messy, get involved teacher I've ever known. I adore her and feel lucky my daughter has her as a teacher.
It is possible, as the teachers at my kids' school prove, to be a good teacher in something other than jeans and sneakers. And, I happen to think it's a good idea for professionals to both act and dress like professionals.
And I agree with zgator - you are in the service industry. So are firefighters, for example. And talk about standards - my husband wears a white button down shirt, and if you think you can't keep a button down shirt neat and clean on your job - try doing it when your job consists of you working around things like spurting blood and fires.
You provide a very needed, very important service to the children and parents of the community. It's a very honored and important profession. It should demand a certain level of respect - and in my opinion, dressing like a professional helps indicate to others that you deserve that respect.
Obviously you disagree with me, and so do most of the other people here. That's cool. Like I said before - you can fight it and accept the consequences, or you can go along. You decide which is the smarter move.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Belle, in my opinion, a polo type shirt is more comfortable and gives a better range of motion than a button-down shirt. I thinks its bad that your husband has to wear one on the job. I really, really want firefighters to be as comfortable as possible. Please tell me he doesn't have to wear a tie.
It's somewhat like the Orlando police that wear black uniforms. I feel bad for the poor officers who have to direct traffic on a broiling August day wearing black.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:It's somewhat like the Orlando police that wear black uniforms. I feel bad for the poor officers who have to direct traffic on a broiling August day wearing black.
They can't wear shorts? In Miami Beach, police officers have a "shorts" version of their uniform.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
Belle, I never said you would accept or reject a good teacher based on dress. I simply asked you a question with very specific criteria involved. In fact, you still haven't answered that specific question.
I also never said that a teacher can't be effective unless he/she wears sneakers and jeans.
I said that I cannot be my most effective unless I'm wearing sneakers and jeans.
I'm glad your daughter's teacher is comfortable in that attire. I bet she goes through a lot more of it, though, and spends a lot more money on replacing damaged items or on drycleaning.
Yes, I'm in a form of the service industry. That, however, does not make it right for me to be kept waiting around 45 minutes for irresponsible/disorganized parents to show up to a scheduled meeting.
As for your husband's attire in his job, I think it is ridiculous. There is no way a firefighter doing the kinds of jobs he must do should be required to wear what he wears. If he's comfortable in it, great. If not, it may be time for the "professional dress" standards in his profession to change. And they do change.
Let's look at a few, shall we? Take nurses, for example. The original uniform was what? Stark white dress, stockings, and white heels? That has certainly changed somewhat. I see nurses wearing white pants and tops, pale colored shirts and tops, white sneakers...And what about those who specifically work with children? Bright colors are the order of the day with animal prints and rainbows.
And then let's take teachers. Originally, women had to wear dresses. There was nothing else allowed. Pants would have been considered inappropriate and unprofessional. But times changed. They are still changing. As students move farther and farther from the "sit at your desk and listen to the lecture and take notes" to the "hands on, activity-heavy" students they are now, the dress for teachers has changed to accommodate that move. This is simply the next step in the "professional attire" that many have taken.
And lastly, I'm quite happy with the respect I have been given by my students, my students' parents, my co-workers, and all my administrators save one. I was elected grade level leader this year. I am the Language Arts department head. I was judged on performance, alone.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I forgot to include the point of my story:
I totally understand Cor's position because I know what it's like to feel more comfortable in a particular type of clothes in a work setting. For me that's on the more formal end of the range for my profession; for Cor that's on the more informal end of the range for her profession.
In other words, it seems to me that as long as the clothes worn are within the accepted range in the profession -- as decided by the norms of the profession [rather than the opinions of one manager] -- then the effects that the clothes have on the person performing the job should take precedent over anything else.
It does make a difference in the energy level that you are able to bring to the job.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Ela, the bike cops get to wear shorts. And white polo shirts.
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