A bean bag is still, usually, less lethal than the alternative.
-Trevor
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Wow. The doctors weren't even able to operate him...
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
The term is "less-lethal" not "non-lethal."
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
The man died anyway.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
There isn't a thing on this Earth that is "non-lethal."
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That's very true. I could probably think of a way to kill someone with almost anything, if I had enough time, and so things that are designed to be powerful projectile weapons are decidedly not "non-lethal".
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I'm being blocked from the site (at work).
Could someone cut and paste the article?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Would the blood thinners have contributed to his internal bleeding as well?
I think that scott's "non-lethal vs. less-lethal" distinction is important and should be adopted into our cultural lexicon. While shooting a beanbag out of a shotgun is certainly better than shooting a piece of lead, it's still not much better than beating the guy with a club or punching him repeatedly.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
quote: Man shot with police bean-bag gun dies
COLUMBUS, Ga. (AP) — A man who telephoned a hot line to say he had a gun and was dreaming of killing children died after police shot him with supposedly non-lethal bean bag projectiles, officials said.
Lester Zachary died Wednesday at a hospital, two days after he was shot at his home with two bean bag bullets.
Zachary, 45, died of internal bleeding caused by a bullet hitting his spleen area, Muscogee County Coroner James Dunnavant said Thursday.
A bean bag bullet is intended by police as a non-lethal alternative to shooting someone with a gun, Police Chief Ricky Boren said.
The silver dollar-sized bean bag is compressed in a shell casing and loaded into a specialized 12-gauge shotgun. It is designed to create an impact strong enough to make suspects fall to the ground so officers can handcuff them.
In this case, the coroner said, the bullet caused internal bleeding. Zachary could not be operated on because he was on blood thinners from a heart condition, Dunnavant said.
Police went to Zachary's house early Monday after Zachary called the Veterans Affairs Hospital hot line. He told a nurse he was dreaming of killing children and himself and that he had a gun. The nurse called police, Boren said.
When officers went to the home, Zachary told them he would kill them too, authorities said. Boren said Zachary refused to talk with them, but he eventually came out to his porch. That's when a supervisor, who was at the scene, authorized an officer to shoot Zachary in the chest using a bean bag gun from about 25 feet away.
Boren said it is standard procedure to shoot the suspect in the chest if the officer is farther than 25 feet. Dunnavant confirmed Thursday that the officer was about that far away when Zachary was shot.
Police said they knew of no evidence Zachary had any history of mental illness.
Boren said the department will continue to use the guns until all investigations are completed. The department has used the guns nine times since 2001, and until now no one had died as a result, he said.
-Trevor
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Scott is absolutely correct in his assessment - I can't tell you, however, what the official designation of the weapon is.
And without being a medical professional, I can only assume that blood thinners could not help but to contribute to the suspect's internal injuries.
-Trevor
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Lets see: sticking chopsticks up their nostrils, impaling them and burning them on a spit, running over them with a farm tracktor, throwing a computer at them, hurling a fireball, tossing them in a mad mob, skinning them alive, etc. There are several ways of making anything lethal. A simple pillow can kill you. Even your own dog may someday turn against you (if infected by the T-Virus specially). What I think is that people need to find more intresting and creative ways to die you know.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
A quick Google search turned up a similar weapon system:
quote: Penetration, though not a desired effect, has occurred in approximately 2% of beanbag shootings regardless of manufacturer or design.
[ April 08, 2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:What I think is that people need to find more intresting and creative ways to die you know.
You think that people should be thinking up interesting and creative ways to die? How interesting. Why on earth would you want that?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Edit: Although the author also refers to these rounds as "non lethal" ammunition in the article.
[ April 08, 2005, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
The truth of the matter is the man brandished a weapon with intent to kill. This is grounds for lethal force, I don't think anyone would disagree. However the police saw something that made them switch from lethal to less-lethal.
I think whoever reported that did so with intent to turn the suspicion to the police when they clearly had no intention to kill the man. They repeatedly use the term "non-lethal" when the term doesn't exist in police or military weapons.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I think that way because I think an origianl death is cool. I don't really think death in and of itself is an atractive idea, but a creative way to die is awsome, in a really twisted and disturbing way I guess. Kindda how characters in movies get a "worthy death", and how you want the bad guy to die in a suitable manner also.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
~~~~~~~~~~bad vibe~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I don't read the same spin - particularly on a Court TV article.
The name seems to be either a common misconception or a commonly adopted bit of slang - like "clip" instead of magazine.
However, the article does not mention the suspect either had a weapon or brandished a weapon at responding officers, which is probably why the command decision was made to use a bean bag rather than a more traditional response.
-Trevor
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
quote: He told a nurse he was dreaming of killing children and himself and that he had a gun.
quote:
When officers went to the home, Zachary told them he would kill them too, authorities said.
So, he never actually showed a weapon (I misread it). However, he did make explicit threats to multiple people including himself, which makes it very hard to bring him down.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I guess I should issue a disclaimer here: At no point do I fault the police for their handling of the situation and I do not think them responsible for acting in a reckless or dangerous manner.
While it is undeniable that the suspect died at the hands of the police, the responding officers acted in good faith to apprehend a suspect who had made threats of violence against himself and others. The officers had no way of knowing the suspect was apparently unarmed and was taking blood thinners which aggravated any injuries sustained.
-Trevor
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I didn't think you were attacking the police Trevor. I just hate seeing people (newspapers) defend those that make horribly tragic decisions and end up dying for them.