Just wanted to be the first one to post this....
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Whoops, I guess not.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Your thread appeared before the announcement in the other thread, though, so you still win. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: advice for robots Member Member # 2544
posted April 19, 2005 12:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's Cardinal Ratzinger.
How ya figure 12:51 is before 12:44?
Added: </persnicketty>
[ April 19, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well, it's not like I actually bothered to look at the timestamps.
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*giggle*
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I looked at the thread list, saw this thread at the top with zero replies, and assumed that it was the first announcement. Can you really blame me?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I wasn't blaming you. This thread was up before the other thread changed titles.
I was laughing at you. Much different from blame.
Does it help if I add it was very nice of you to try to make Beanny feel better about it?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
It might have helped if you'd just said it was nice rather than asking if it'd help if you said it was nice. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I'll keep that in mind for future referance.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
John Ratzinger?
Can Popes still do voice cameos?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Thank you! That was my first thought! However, my co-worker is very devout Catholic, and I did not say it out loud.
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
You know, it would be kind of funny if the Cardinal of Paris would be chosen. Then even the Pope would be Jewish and our secret plan(oh well, not so secret anymore...) to rule the world will succeed!
Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
quote:You know, it would be kind of funny if the Cardinal of Paris would be chosen. Then even the Pope would be Jewish and our secret plan(oh well, not so secret anymore...) to rule the world will succeed
Sorry- You get a former Nazi instead...
quote:
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger — a favorite to become the next pontiff — joined the Nazi children's corps in 1941 as a 14-year-old and was later an anti-aircraft gunner.
At one point, he guarded a factory where slaves from a concentration camp were forced to work. He was later shipped to Hungary, where he reportedly saw Jews persecuted.
Ratzinger, a staunch conservative dubbed "God's Rottweiler," has said he joined the Hitler Youth when membership became compulsory. He and his brother were later drafted but deserted. The cardinal claims he never fired a shot and that resistance would have meant death.
Not so, Germans from his hometown of Traunstein told The Times of London.
"It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others," recalled Elizabeth Lohner, 84. "The Ratzingers were young — and they had made a different choice."
Good thing Catholicism includes repentance, and that we are not all judged for the rest of our lives by the decisions we made under duress at fifteen.
[ April 19, 2005, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Amen, kat.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
And of course, redemption, too.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Well I'm at least going to put in my congratulations to all the Catholics here, and add my best wishes to the millions already offered, to welcome the new pope.
Hobbes Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Who's John Ratzinger?
Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
Has he asked for forgiveness? In this article, I read that he looked at the value of life and chose to save his own... And now justifies it by claiming saving his own life was more important than risking it for what was morally right. That would be a difficult decision to make at any age much less 15. But forgiveness (assuming he has asked for it) and the appropriateness for a specific role in church leadership are 2 different things.
This confusion has lead to the same absurdities with Cardinal Law. So he facilitated the sexual abuse of hundreds of children (assuming hundreds of these ‘victims’ are lying there would still be hundreds) by moving known child abusers from parish to parish. If he honestly seeks forgiveness, he deserves to be forgiven. It is the only way the victims and he can be healed (though not the only thing that needs to happen for that healing-Law was only one player in that tragedy)- but even after that- determing whether it would ever be appropriate to then promote him to a higher position- forgiveness is just one of many factors to consider... accountability, honesty, wisdom- these are the characteristics required for institutional leadership. Arre these traits in evidence in the way Law and Ratzinger handle themselves in light of their decisions/roles in these events?
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
quote:If he honestly seeks forgiveness, he deserves to be forgiven.
And I certainly don't claim to be the one to determine whether or not he has.
Jouissance - nice to have you at Hatrack. Tu es francais?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
J, you are claiming to know if he has been redeemed or not?
quote:Who's John Ratzinger?
Cliff Claven. He was Ham, the piggy bank, in Toy Story, and he's had a cameo in every Pixar film.
Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
quote: quote:Who's John Ratzinger?
Cliff Claven. He was Ham, the piggy bank, in Toy Story, and he's had a cameo in every Pixar film.
I was wondering who you meant too. I think the actor's name is John Ratzenberger... but Cliff Claven as pope! Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
quote:J, you are claiming to know if he has been redeemed or not?
Of course not- my point was that his redemption/forgiveness, etc. is a separate issue from his appropriateness as the leader of THE church. One can be redeemed, but not make a good leader or an appropriate (or perhaps inclusive???) figurehead.
quote: In a document in 2000, he branded other Christian churches as deficient -- shocking Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestants in ecumenical dialogue with Rome for years.
Susie, thanks for the welcome- and no I am not French but I am a fan of Lacan.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So someone can be forgiven, but not really. They can be redeemed, but it can never be forgotten. A possible sin of omission done as a teenager during a war sixty years ago trumps everything that has happened in his life since then.
I don't think that's what redemption actually means.
[ April 19, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:Of course not- my point was that his redemption/forgiveness, etc. is a separate issue from his appropriateness as the leader of THE church. One can be redeemed, but not make a good leader or an appropriate (or perhaps inclusive???) figurehead.
I'm a big fan of this guy named Paul. You may remember him as Saul of Tarsus.
[ April 19, 2005, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
You beat me to it, Taal. Precisely.
Or, to paraphrase C.S. Lewis, "When we arrive in Heaven we may be very surprised by both who we see there and who we don't."
Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
quote: So someone can be forgiven, but not really. They can be redeemed, but it can never be forgotten. A possible sin of omission done as a teenager during a war sixty years ago trumps everything that has happened in his life since then.
I don't think that's what redemption actually means.
You better believe it should not be forgotten. To forgive and to ignore (another word for forgetting) are two entirely different things. Forgiveness and redemption do not erase history or undo the past- they provide doors for sinners embrace life again and grow- but they do not remove the scars. A former Nazi could, possibly, have gained great wisdom and spritual leadership abilities during his/her struggle to reconcile belonging to an institution that murdered 7 million or so. I was asking if there was any evidence of this. The few quotes and stances I have read strike me as idelogically pure, which after the Nazi party, frightens me more than a little. Also to claim, he had to do what he did or face death, does not sound like asking for redemption. Can one be forgiven for something one does not think was wrong?
So many people think that to be forgiven is the final step in healing or moving forward. It is the first step. We should not forget our sins and not all sins are equal. Forgiveness does not erase accountability or consequence- it facilitates accountabilty which fosters consequences that can facilitate growth/life.
Regardless, I am curious as to what the 'sin of omission' was?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*waves a hand in the direction of Taal's post*
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I don't think I would judge anyone on whether or not they joined the Hitlerjugend, at least not when it was as late as 1941. What moral resource is a 15-year-old supposed to muster, against the entire weight of nationalism, patriotism, propaganda, and coercion? If it comes to that, in 1941 you could probably make a good case that he really didn't know what was happening to the Jews; Hitler's regime, while not exactly sweetness and light, had yet to be exposed for the utter cesspool it truly was.
That said, considering he's just been elected leader of one of the more evil organisations of our era, a mere Hitlerjugend membership is pretty small potatoes anyway.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Aw, KoM, you were showing some respect and civilization in spite of yourself for a minute there.
[ April 19, 2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Completely inadvertent, I assure you.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
KoM, I can't believe I just read that.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You can't? Then I envy you, because it means you've somehow avoided the hate and vitriol that spews from KoM's mouth on a regular basis.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Guess I figured that one could hold back a bit on this day in particular.
I guess wrong, often. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You know, I think the pendulum has swung a little too far in the religion-haters direction. Everyone was so careful after the rash of baptisms last fall to tone down the church talk to make sure that everyone felt included, but this is too much.
Even when the Red Sox won, there was a legion of people jumping on the one person who wasn't acting happy.
Now, this happens, and the threads are filled with a bunch of people generally being &%$#*%#s about it.
Time for the pendulum to swing back. How about the jerks stay out the threads?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I don't see why this day should have any particular respect. I held my peace when the old Pope died, because whatever he did in life he was, after all, dead. But this guy is coming in to his power; why should I hold back?
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Scary... You know what happened last time Germany and Italy were in league together. All they need to do now is start installing some Japanese Archbishops and they'll be ready to annex the Polish Orthodox Church.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
By the way, have the French Cardinals surrendered yet?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Give the French bashing a rest, eh? It's neither funny, original, nor true. Had the Americans had Nazi Germany on their border in 1940, they'd have collapsed in a lot less than six weeks, thank you kindly.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
quote: I held my peace when the old Pope died, because whatever he did in life he was, after all, dead.
No you didn't.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I wonder what the Jews at Hatrack think about it.
I don't think I would have put him in that post, just because it might offend so many Jews. But, if they aren't bothered by it, I suppose no one else should be.
quote: How about the jerks stay out the threads?
If only wishing made it so.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
...
.....
..
King of Men, I think you know I'm not normally one who comments much on your feelings about religion. I think you sometimes express yourself in a less than ideal manner, but you're intitled to your option, certainly.
But goodness, are you really one to talk about giving anything-bashing a rest?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
ElJay, the Catholic church really is a force for evil; the French really are not cheese eating surrender monkeys.
Porter, you're right; my exact words were
quote:Could I just note that I wasn't very fond of yon Pope?
which I do not think is out of line in a thread whose title claimed everyone liked him.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
I didn't say it was out of line.
But it is not true when you claim that you "held your peace".
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
Give it a rest, KoM.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
PJ
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
quote:ElJay, the Catholic church really is a force for evil;
Yeah. That Da** Mother Theresa! And Abbe Pierre! Honestly. Making this world a worse place, they are!
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
KoM, as far as I'm concerned, that's irrelevant. Harping on one issue is harping on one issue, and it's annoying regardless of the veracity of the statement.
Edit: I'm not agreeing that on your statements about the church. I'm saying if you were extolling the virtues of my favorite chocolate in the whole wide world and told someone else to stop going on about crappy American chocolate, I'd still think you were being inconsistant.
[ April 19, 2005, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Mother Theresa did not give her victims adequate health care, embezzled large sums - having been none too picky about where the money came from in the first place - and denied contraception to women who sought her aid. As for Abbe Pierre, have you considered closely his opinion on the Holocaust?
Porter, that is, in fact, holding my peace, which does not mean "shutting up" but "saying nothing controversial".
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
"contraception" is not the only form of "aid" that exists. Give me a break.
AJ
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
quote:As for Abbe Pierre, have you considered closely his opinion on the Holocaust?
Yes. Apparently it didn't lead me to the same conclusions you drew. Have you studied the fact that he smuggled people out of France during the Nazi occupation?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Indeed it's not; the rest of her care was also not that great. But that's irrelevant, considering contraception was probably the single largest improvement she could have made in the lives of those women.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I put a decent meal and education a lot higher than contraception on the wants vs. needs hierarchy.
I can't believe you would use that point to judge Mother Theresa harshly on. In your judgement "contraception is the single best thing she could have done for the women" (paraphrased). That's your judgement and no one else's. I think she did a heck a lot of good either way.
AJ
And at least she was doing *something* What was the last thing you did for starving children in India??
[ April 19, 2005, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
When was the last time I claimed to be an extra-specially good person, to the extent that my personal fantasies must plainly be true since they inspired me to such good works?
Edit : Oops, I just noticed our good mod's injunction. I'll shut up now.
[ April 19, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: King of Men ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Your opinion of Mother Teresa shows an incredible bias. She provided medical care and assistance to thousands of the poorest of the poor. Without her, most of them would have had no care at all.
Your priorities would have been different, you've made that clear. But it is unfair to criticize her for what she did not do when she did so much more than others.
When you criticize others for what they fail to do, be prepared to have others ask what you have done? That criticism in and of itself can and will be interpreted as a claim of your own goodness.
[ April 19, 2005, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
And most notably of all Mother Theresa *never* that I am aware of actually claimed herself to be "goodly extra special". Others lauded the accolades on her. I believe that as she got older she did occasionally use the public relations capital that they had given her for what she viewed as good causes, but only in extremely rare cases.
AJ
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
And another reason to never listen to folks calling themselves King.
That's been good advice for a long time, and I'm glad we've heeded it since 1776 or thereabouts.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Kayla, regarding your question about the Jewish viewpoint, I found this quote in Le Monde.
quote:Dans un communiqué, le ministre israélien des Affaires étrangères Silvan Shalom "exprime l'espoir que ce pape, compte tenu de son expérience historique, soit particulièrement attaché à une lutte sans compromis contre l'antisémitisme".
Le grand rabbin de Tel Aviv, Israël Meir Lau, survivant de l'Holocauste nazi, a dit avoir rencontré Ratzinger l'an dernier lors d'un symposium sur l'antisémitisme à New York, où le cardinal avait fermement condamné les manifestations antisémites.
"Il est connu comme un ami du peuple juif. J'espère, je prie et lui souhaite de suivre l'exemple de Jean Paul II (...) dans sa bonne attitude et son amitié envers les juifs du monde et l'Etat d'Israël en particulier", a déclaré Lau à Reuters.
I had to paste that; I'm leaving work. And now I have to run and pick people up. I shall translate as soon as I get back online.
Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
quote:Dans un communiqué, le ministre israélien des Affaires étrangères Silvan Shalom "exprime l'espoir que ce pape, compte tenu de son expérience historique, soit particulièrement attaché à une lutte sans compromis contre l'antisémitisme".
Le grand rabbin de Tel Aviv, Israël Meir Lau, survivant de l'Holocauste nazi, a dit avoir rencontré Ratzinger l'an dernier lors d'un symposium sur l'antisémitisme à New York, où le cardinal avait fermement condamné les manifestations antisémites.
"Il est connu comme un ami du peuple juif. J'espère, je prie et lui souhaite de suivre l'exemple de Jean Paul II (...) dans sa bonne attitude et son amitié envers les juifs du monde et l'Etat d'Israël en particulier", a déclaré Lau à Reuters.
Freebie translation:
In a press release, the Israeli foreign affairs minister Silvan Shalom "expresses his hope that this pope, having had his historic experience, is particularly committed to a fight against anti-semitism without compromise.
The great rabbi of Tel Aviv, Israel Meir Lau, a Nazi holocaust surviver, said he met Ratzinger last year at a symposium on anti-semitism in New York, where the cardinal firmly condemned anti-semitic manifestations (note: this could mean protests or it could mean anti-semitism in all it's forms.)
"He is known as a friend of the jewish people. I hope, I pray and I wish for him to follow the example of John Paul II (...) in his good attitude and his friendship toward the jews of the world and of the State of Israel in particular", Lau said to Reuters.
Edit: to get rid of some typos
[ April 19, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Miriya ]
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Hey, cool - Miriya. Thanks.
Why don't I know you yet? Hi, I'm Annie.
Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
just came back- heard more about the new pope- about deserting from the nazi's and such. sounds like an interesting figure so here's wishing him well. i do not like many of his positions and am particularly troubled by his wanting to keep power in rome and not empower the bishops more- if rome keeps the power then responsibility for every debacle like boston falls on rome... no matter how old the pope is.
but anyhoo- good luck and best wishes.
my points about forgiveness being different from accountability are not really grounded in this situation so i will not be too sad that no one understood.
kom- not describing yourself as good does not make less of your obligation to be good.
Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
quote:Hey, cool - Miriya. Thanks.
Why don't I know you yet? Hi, I'm Annie.
Wow ... someone noticed me
You don't know me because I'm new to the forum I guess. Nice to meet you.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Glad to see you here.
How long have you studied French, out of curiosity?
Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
quote:How long have you studied French, out of curiosity?
Studied.... hmmm I suppose I *pretended* to study it all through high school but I didn't learn much. I learned to speak it mostly at home from my mom who was born in France. Incidentally I couldn't do that translation in reverse... my written french is abysmal!
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, Miriya. Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Let me just say one thing. I've never cared who the pope is/was. I don't care because it doesn't affect me in any way. I'm not Catholic. I think if you're not Catholic, you don't have much of a right to say anything at all about who the pope is. I'll just leave things at that.
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Gee, Boris, what a positive attitude! Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
By say anything, I mean say anything negative about him. We can say all the good we want about him, but I think pointing fingers at what a church's leader did at any point in his life is just...pointless. (Oooh, man...look at that unintentional pun...ouch)
But really. I can't see how anything the Vatican has decided has really affected my life, so I choose not to worry about what goes on there.
[ April 20, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
I wasn't attacking you man, only joking.
Posted by Hammer (Member # 7528) on :
KoM--after reading this thread you definitely are over opinionated. The rhetoric flows but without substance to document your rash generalizations.
Here's some advice from an old bum...
You know you're a big boy when you learn to wipe your oun butt, You know your a grown man when your mouth you can shut up.
But then, isn't it great that you can speak your mind?
Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
quote: But really. I can't see how anything the Vatican has decided has really affected my life, so I choose not to worry about what goes on there.
The new pope chose to make a point during the American presidential election- to American Bishops that they were not to serve communion-they were to deny the sacrement- to polititians who do not oppose abortion.
Regardless of whether you agree with this, appreciate his efforts, are happy or sad about this- to claim the pope- leader of over a billion catholics, has no impact on your life, is simply not true. You may not see the influence or understand the outcomes impacted, but the influence is there.
I live in boston and it impacts our community, what goes on in the catholic church, whether I am catholic or not.
I found it disturbing, reading these stories about his quite sophisticated use of political influence and power and then hearing him describe himself with his first words as pope as - "a simple, humble worker in the vineyard of the Lord."
Strange way to be simple and humble... Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: The new pope chose to make a point during the American presidential election- to American Bishops that they were not to serve communion-they were to deny the sacrement- to polititians who do not oppose abortion.
I live in Idaho. There is one Catholic church that I know of within 30 miles of here. I'm not saying the Vatican's decisions don't affect anyone, just not me.
And Beanny, I know you were joking. I just thought I'd clear up what I said, since it could be misunderstood
[ April 20, 2005, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by jouissance (Member # 7848) on :
Idaho is a state and the President presides over all the states, no?
I get that the inluence of the Pope is not the biggest concern in your life, but when spiritual authority for 1/9th of the people on the panet is concentrated in one person- that person will have many significant impacts on you indirectly, whether or not you are aware of how HE is tied to the things impacting you or not.
This is why I am concerned about many things but wish him well.
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PJ
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