Please, tell me you Hatrackers are reading this, have read it or are going to read it! It's abosolutely, positively *slaying me*.
Okay. I admit to being one of those strange ten year olds who sat around reading Dickens and Shakespeare for fun. It was challenging, fun, and after years getting pneumonia every stinking fall/winter, I was sick unto death of Nancy Drew pap, and begged my mom to bring me something thick and wordy.
Ah, the joys of the Victorian novel! Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell immitates that style without putting you to sleep. Victorian era Third Person Omniscient is a BEYOTCH - don't let anyone tell you differently - but this writer makes it fun.
I wish I could quote a bit of here to show you, but I fear a smackdown from on high. I've been reading bits of it aloud to the hubby, and we giggle together over the tasty, twisted wit.
I wanna talk about it, and all my mommy friends are trying not to make eye contact and pretending to get cell phone calls.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
(feel free to post what you need at Madowl and link if you want)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
OK, Olivetta, I will get it. I am in need of a good book. I am trying to read "How Evan Broke His Head," but I cannot do it.
What is the pov that goes like this:
Evan sits on the chair and thinks. He feels his stomach churn.
It is just horrendous to me! I can;t stand it! I can also not read books, like "Bright Lights, Big City," written in second person.
You go to the store. you buy a carton of milk. you drink it.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hmm. I looked at it longingly in a bookshop just this last weekend. I think I'll put it on my "to be read next" list - I have to finish William's "Otherworld" series first - one book left!
space opera
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I feel I should confess that I am only 100 pages or so into it, so it's possible it could go sour.
I sincerely doubt it, though.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Is Mad Owl, down? I'm not getting it... Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I picked up a copy of it a few weeks ago, but I have a bunch of other books in my reading queue as well so I'm not sure when I'll get to it...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Olivette-- Strange and Norrell is wonderful-- if there were required reading for fantasy fans, this would be in my top 3. (The other two being Hart's Hope and Lord of the Rings)
Don't worrry-- it keeps being wonderful, throughout the whole book. The last fifty pages or so is markedly more grim than the rest of the book-- but when you get there, you'll understand why.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
o_O it shouldn't be. Nope, it's good. is this working for you? Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:I feel I should confess that I am only 100 pages or so into it, so it's possible it could go sour.
Well, for what it's worth, it never went sour for me. It was a great read - but I read Dickens for fun in high school.
I read it back in the glorious break I had during December, along with finishing up the Dark Tower, and the Tawny Man trilogy.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Here's a link to the kind of thing I'm talking about with both style and substance:
*facepalm*
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*snort*
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Olivet:
It truly is wonderful, isn't it?
And I love the ending. To add to Scott's post: it's grimly genteel. Pitch perfect.
What's beautiful about the book is that neither the literariness of it nor that fantasy-ness of it comes across a being ashamed of itself [something that happens in the last Dark Tower novel, imo]. Nor does either [and to separate it out is almost impossible because it's all of one lovely piece] compromise the other's effectiveness.
It's one of the few works that, once I read it, made me incredibly, insanely jealous.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Wow, this is the third time this book has been shouted from the Hatrack rooftops as an excellent find. One was TomDavidson, one was me, and now Olivet. I'm glad it's getting the attention it deserves. I absolutely loved it, particularly the parts about Stephen Black and the man with the thistle down hair.
On a side note, I have just finished Sarah Vowell's fantastic historical romp "Asassination Vacation" which describes the asassinations of Presidents Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley. It isn't a schlarly work, or a dry text for a history class, but rather a sort of extended This Ameican Life piece on paper. For example, the kind of detail Vowell includes is that John Wilkes Booth knew the play Lincoln was seeing, so he waited for a big laugh line to fire his shot. Vowell even includes the line. She takes comfort in the fact that the last thing Lincoln ever did was have a good guffaw.
Anyway, the reason I'm telling you this, is that reading her description of James Garfield, I kept on envisioning him as Mr Norrell from the book being recommended in this thread.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I loved this book. I bought it for myself with my Christmas gift certificate to B&N, and I adored it. The footnotes were so long and often so unnecessary--they made me smile, especially that extra long one about Jonathan Strange's father's servant. And neither I nor my mother, who was reading it around the same time as I was, could stop laughing when we were reading the bit where the man with the thistle-down hair told Stephen about how he had found out his name. Brilliant.
Yes, everyone should definitely read this book.
Jenny
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
It's not in my style. I picked up a copy from the library, but I think that there is only so much I can take. Comedies of manners, written sideways, only seem to work for me if I have some sort of emotional attachment to the manners. I felt as if the book were written for someone with alien sensibilities. I don't think it's an english thing. I feel the same way about Tom Clancy and most science fiction, and I don't feel that way about Wodehouse or Sayers.
Dickens, for me, is easy to start and hard to finish.
[ April 25, 2005, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Vána (Member # 6593) on :
Dan and I are reading this right now (aloud, before bed, so it's slow going - roughly a chapter a night). I love the footnotes, too.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I think the hard thing for most readers is that it's done in third person omniscient, which is hard to do and doesn't give the reader a solid POV character (unlike, say, Sayer).
But for those of us who cut our teeth on Dickens, by gods it's good.
I had pimped this on LiveJournal, too, and the only response I got was from the same gentleman who found pictures of Ben so charming. He's one of the writers' group. Anyway, he felt the same as you, Irami.
I think it's just one of those things you either love or hate, like Tolkien or Dickens. But if you like both of those, you'll probably love this.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I wondered what you would think about this book, Irami.
Now I know.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
That's why I know I wouldn't appreciate it--I don't like Dickens OR Tolkien. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I must admit to a strange atavistic nervousness about people who do not like this book. Clearly, they are strangers to me.
Posted by Vána (Member # 6593) on :
Oh, I'm not bothered by third-omniscient. It makes it much more likely that I can actually trust the narrator. It freaks me out (though not always in a bad way) when I feel like I can't trust the narrator.
Though, last night Dan and I had a short discussion on who exactly the protagonist was, and the antagonist. I'm not sure we came to a conclusion - and I know our answers have changed as the story has progressed.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Irami:
What did you think about the faeries -- specifically the gentleman with thistledown hair?
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
I too can't begin to recommend this book enough; however, it seems that whenever I recommend it to people I get blank stares followed by half-hearted mutterings of how maybe they will read it. Of course, I often describe it as the kind of fantasy book Charles Dickens would write, which to me is a compliment, but to others may be a deterrent.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Ah, Vana! (I think it's so cool that you guys read to each other like that - Ron and I do, too) I know what you mean. I like 3rd omni but people don't use it so much anymore. Chabon did to great effect in the ... The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay (don't kill me if I got the title wrong). But it is seldom done well in this day and age, at least in America.
Plus, most writing teachers advise against using it, OSC included, if I am not mistaken. Not that it shouldn't be done, but that inexperienced writers make a mess of it, usually.
THIS book is a journeyman project, though, for all its being her first novel, IMO.
Posted by Vána (Member # 6593) on :
I keep forgetting the author is a woman.
Of course, before we finally bought it, I couldn't ever remember the title - but I could remember what the cover looked like. So I took to calling it "Mrs. Norris Eats a Bird."
It's stuck. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I finished it some time ago, and I was thinking of your discussion of who the protagonist is.
I think it's the Raven King, which is funny, since he's hardly in it at all. I think that it is the fruition of his plans, only told from the outside. Yeppers, I think he's the hero.
Anybody wanna talk about this book with me?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I'm about 3/5 through it. I love it so far. Can we wait until I'm done? Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
I'd love to talk about it with you. Where shall we start?
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
*closes eyes in case there are spoilers*
I'm so bad. This book has been sitting on my nightstand, unfinished, for some time now. I'm nearing the end and for some reason put it down and haven't picked it back up. I resolve to finish soon!
space opera
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
HS, I suppose we should wait until Space Opera and sweet twinky finish...
But, um, who do you think is the 'protagonist' of the story? Did you like it?
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
It's hard to say who the protagonist is, although the Raven King was an interesting idea. I almost feel like John Childermass was the protagonist, although I can't quite explain why. Hmmm... I'll have to think about that one.
I loved the book! It's funny, I couldn't put it down, but my wife has been slogging through it for the last two months. I think that whether or not one likes the book depends on how much one likes classic literature. Like I said before, I think that JS&MN feels like the kind of fantasy book Charles Dickens would have written. In this way it's one of those rare fantasy books that rises above schlock and becomes art.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Mack, none of those links worked for me.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I finished it! I was a lot farther along than what I had remembered - less than 100 pages from the end.
I did enjoy it quite a bit, and wish that it hadn't taken me so long to finish. Taking a long break from a book like that really makes the story lose momentum. I loved the footnotes and the way the humor was so matter-of-fact. I'm still not quite sure what I think of the very end - not quite what I expected, but that's good I think. As for the protagonist, I can definately see the Raven King. However, is it possible for the book to have more than one protagonist? Because I could see the argument for Childermass as well. I'll have to mull that over a bit. Usually I don't do well with discussion till I've had a few days to think about the book in its entirety.
*runs off to think*
space opera
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I can see Childermass as a protagonist as well, But the Raven King intrigues me. Everything that happens is obviously part of his prophecy, or perhaps even part of some unbelievably complicated spell of his. Then I think, what is the purpose? If it is to bring back English magic, then... why did he allow the magic to fade?
It almost makes more sense as an elaborate scheme to do away with a dangerous and powerful enemy, the Man with the Thistledown Hair. I think maybe allowing English Magic to fade so that the only magic left was fairy magic may have been necessary to get rid of TMWTTH. He was obvously a menace to humanity.
I loved Stephen Black, though. He can't really be the Protagonist in the traditional sense, since he's really pretty helpless in most of the story, but we definitely identify with him most. I did, anyway.
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
I'm glad that in the end Stephen at least got rewarded for all of his trouble and courage. Like you said, he appeared helpless throughout most of the novel, but he went out of his way to protect his master and associates. It seems like most servants would have unleashed all hell on their masters if given half a chance.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
YAAAAAA! Won the Hugo!
*bumped by request* Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Finished it tonight. Definitely enjoyed it. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Finally finished! I haven;t been able to read too much lately, and I am not a very fast reader, but boy was it worth it!
I just adore Dickens, and that whole genre of wordiness, so it fit beautifully in mys favored styles.
Interesting point about the Raven King being the protagonist, Olivia. I will think about that.
I cried like a baby at th end, though, when Jonathan went off in the pillar of darkness without Arabella. I choose to think they are reunited. But I loved the ending nonetheless.
As with Dickens, I laughed out loud at some of the language, especially in the last bit with Childermnass and Vinculus. "Being a book..." Things like that. How he was going to carry him, etc.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Yes!
The ending was tough, I admit. He didn't ask, because he knew she would come with him and he didn't want to subject her to the darkness, and she didn't offer.
I'm so glad you liked it!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Darn it! I replied to you, and must have hit "Go."
Anyway, the other most poignant moment for me(there were many) was when Strange put his heart in Arabella's safe keeping. Made me cry.
The female characters in the story were incredible, I thought. The way Flora helped Strange by loving Arabella was also incredibly touching.
Oh, dear, so many thoughts going through this old head!
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
I haven't finished yet, so I only skimmed the thread, but I'm about 150 pages through.
It excited me to see a thread regarding a book I randomly grabbed the last time I was at Borders. Judging by the pieces I picked up while skimming, I chose well.
Hopefully I will finish tonight (or tomorrow) and can then contribute something actually worthwhile to the discussion.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Great!
I have been pimping this book to so many people, recently, in the hopes of spreading the word. Discussion would be great.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I quite liked it, but I don't really have anything in particular I want to say about it other than that. I tend to just appreciate art without analysis. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
*pat,pat*
We love you anyway. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Did you know that the faulty search function here on this forum brings up 5 different threads with this same title?
Interesting.
I just finished it tonight. The last 300 pages made the 500 page exposition completely worth it. It took me 2-3 weeks to plow through the first 2/3 of the book, and about 2 days to get through the last part. It's like it started rolling down hill and I had to read faster and faster and faster until I found out what happened!!
*spoilers ahead*
I was quite satisfied with the fates of all involved, but I have to say the MOST satisfying was that of Lascelles. I laughed most gleefully at the end of that chapter. It was perfect.
I was so sad that Bell and Strange couldn't be together at the very end, but I suppose it worked. I'm glad she at least gave us the satisfaction of seeing them say goodbye.
Great stuff though, I'm glad I was patient enough to get through it, it was worth it.
(I'm tempted now to go back and reread the parts where Norrell summons the fairy to save Lady Pole. Strange had such trouble summoning that same fairy and had to resort to making himself go mad to do it....so how was Norrell so able to do it? Is she implying that he was a little cracked himself? I wouldn't doubt it.
I have to say that I wanted Norrell to have a nastier fate. The fact that he's stuck in the darkness with Strange and chained to his side is rather fitting I guess, but the vengeful person deep inside of me wanted to see him get HIS. But I guess him having to admit that he and Strange are equals and see England filled with 'new' magicians was punishment enough for him.)
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Yay, Narnia! It's funny you had a harder time with the beginning where I found the beginning totally drew me in, but I had a harder time keeping my stamina until the last 100 pages or so, when I was sucked back in.
Love the ending of Lascelles, too, and thought there was a certain justice to Drawlight's ending too. Here's a guy who wants to be the life of the party, the center of the action, and he ends up being background, literally.
Am I the only one that felt that this is only the first novel in a series? Or is that so obvious that no one felt the need to mention it? Or am I totally off base in thinking there will be more? Strange and Norrell were just part of a Raven King plan, which isn't yet fulfilled.
And...when Norrell brings up the gentleman with the thistledown hair, there is recognition there, like he asked for this particular fairy by name. Yet that name is never given, and I kept thinking all the way through that we were going to find out how that fairy was used by one of the previous Aeureate magicians. Or did I miss something?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Yeah, that's right jeniwren! I don't think he had ever met this fairy before, but it seemed that he knew who he would be. Sheesh, was he a dispicable fairy!! I LOVED his ending too, it was positively creepy and fantastic at the same time.
I've not heard if there's supposed to be a series. I got the feeling that the Raven King's whole point was to bring English magic back to England. Norrell and Strange did that and now there are magicians running around everywhere. He even changed the writing on Vinculus...I wish I knew what it was, but Childermass seemed to think it was new instructions for their particular magical age. Very cool. I do love Childermass and I loved his meeting with the Raven King after Vinculus was hanged. So cool!
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
I read this book after OSC suggested it. It was a good book, but I honestly didn't feel any real impact from it. Books that I love stick with me, affect my world view etc. This book only affected me as entertainment and nothing more.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
It's okay, Jacare. Not every staggering work of genius affects everyone the same way. Rocked my world, though. Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
Bump
I just read this book, mostly on a plane ride to China and back. I thought it was great.
I was a little disappointed with the ending. I wanted Strange to prove he was the best magician of the age by freeing his wife and exposing Norrell. But the way it ended was still good.
I think you could definitely do some more books in this series, but they may have nothing to do with Strange and Norrell. The next book could be called "The Raven King". It is a new and interesting world she has created worth further exploration.
They could even be in totally different time. Going back to tell how the Raven King won his kingdoms or seeing what this magical modern day England would be like would be very interesting.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I'm trying desperately to read this behemoth, mainly because of this thread (though I stopped reading it some time ago lest I catch spoilers, even though they don't really bother me much unless they're major like Sixth Sense or The Crying Game or something), but it's kinda boring the snot out of me. Now since that's the same thing my brother said about Ender's Game until he got to about the seventh chapter, I'm kinda ok with that. But someone please tell me how long it will be before I'm interested.
*Some minor spoilers for the first few chapters, which may become totally unimportant later*
I'm sympathizing with the ex-magicians right now, because I want the book to do something amazing, and I figure that eventually it will, but I'm getting quite impatient. I figure this is how they feel about Mr. Norrell actually doing something magical.
The family and I will be driving to/from Arizona in a couple weeks -- if I can talk Mama into driving and not being bugged by the reading light (we expect to leave here around the kids' bedtime, and arrive at grandma's in the early morning), maybe I can get through it.
--Pop
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I read this book last week, and was enormously fond of it. Initially I wasn't terribly impressed, but the book has grown on me, and continues to grow even now a week later. I'm very glad that Olivet and Tom recommended it so highly.
That said, I don't quite know that I'd like to see a sequel. It just seems so perfect in and of itself, you know? No need for another book.
I think that I agree with those who said that they could see either Childermass or The Raven King as the protagonists of the book.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:But someone please tell me how long it will be before I'm interested.
Probably after you're finished with the book. I say that in all seriousness. It does pick up from where you are, but I really don't think I fully appreciated or was into the book until after it was over. It's definitly one I'm going to be rereading.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
I agree with Noemon- if the Book isn't grabbing your attention so far, the pacing doesn't really change much until near the end, and even then it is fairly slow to unravel.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
How encouraging. Well, uh... Hmmm. I dunno. I guess I can still try for a bit. But it doesn't draw my brain away from the exhaustion on the exercise machines, so I'll need something else to read at the gym. I'll save JS&MN for other times. Thanks, though.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
For the record, after I got through the first five or ten chapters, I devoured the rest in about three days.
But I also really enjoyed the mock Victorian style, so YMMV.
--Mel
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
I agree this book was great in of itself, which is why I think it would be cool to explore the world the author created without going back to the same story. I thought she created a world of fantasy and magic that was new and original, not a copy of Tolkien or standard mythology.
Of course if she can create another world that is as compelling I'm all for it. I don't know if it is necessary to bring Strange and Norell back for another appearance. So many times when people write sequels it is just because they fall in love with a character and can't stand not to do revisit them. Sometimes this is good, but more times than not I would say it is bad.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
I am reading it (passed on to me by Sharpie) -- about 6 chapters in, having a blast with it.
I especially enjoy the fun Clarke has with language; the mix of matter-of-fact bizarrenesses; the mock arcana in footnotes.... it's a masterful romp (so far).
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
My mother bought the book for me for my birthday. Unfortunately, I am right now in the middle of NaNoWriMo, so I won't be able to start it immediately. Maybe if I suddenly have a brainwave and write 15 000 words in a single day, I'll take some time off to start it.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Moose, in my opinion, the exposition took about 500 pages. The last 300 were a great ride and totally worth it. I recommend that you stick with it.
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