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[url=http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=034291]This[/url] thread.

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And I don't think that there exists such a rule. I think it would be pretty pointless if it did.

[ April 30, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: St. Yogi ]
 

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Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
 
Hatrackers, like all other human beings, are not immune from being deeply stupid and arbitrarily intolerant sometimes. Especially towards newbies.

[ April 30, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: digging_holes ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I don't think it was an ambush at all, nor do I recall saying he had to have read OSC in the first place. He should have had a lot more tact though, that is for sure.

I would not go to a web site and post something questioning anyones faith or convictions though, not without knowing what I was talking about.

Hatrackers don't have the market on stupidity cornered, either.

Kwea
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Read Hammer's thread, where he gets lambasted for asking a question."

No, Hammer's being lambasted for being a self-righteous a-hole. There's rather a significant difference.

Don't pull an Anne Kate here and start calling trolls victims of society.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I don't know if he is a troll, I actually doubt it; his initial post wasn't all that bad on the face of it, but the assumptions behind it got me a bit worked up.....but I didn't say anything until he tried to "justify" his post by becoming arrogant and a bit preachy.

And it is arrogant, to believe that HE knows what is best, and that I am living in sin and dammed because I frequent Adult Arcades <gasp> and whatnot. He is free to believe what he wants, but the second he feels it is OK to tell me about it, and say HE is living a better life than that.... unless I had asked.... in a public forum....well, that makes it free game as I see it.

I know that wasn't even his main point, but that is what pissed me off about it. He should have just left it out there, and explained he had meant it more as a question than as criticim...not that I would have believed it, becaue that wasn't how it read....but instead he deceided to preach.

Poorly.

Notice that MY only point until that point was that his assumptions about Card's motivations (swearing to increase the audience, as he felt movies do) was unfounded, adn was directally refuted by what movie studios actually go. I had a problem, at that point, with his assumptions, and explianed that his analogy was not correct for a number of reasons.

I haven't even said all I could on the matter, to be honest, and I doubt I will unless it becomes necessary. If he really meant it as a sincere question, it could ahve been MUCH better phrased...but that alone doesn't make him a troll, per say.

Time will tell, though.....it always does...

Kwea

[ April 30, 2005, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Here's two ways of asking that question:

"How does your faith as a Mormon affect your decision in word choice and sexual innuendo?"

"I thought you were Mormon - what's with the obscenity and sexual innuendo?"

Hammer's choice of phrasing was much closer to the second option, and anyone who read it that way seems pretty justified to me.

People calling him names, on the other hand, do not.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Dag's point is, as always, well made.

You don't have to be a fan or reader of OSC to be a member and post - I'm not and I post here quite often.

However, I don't go out of my way to be insulting to our host's belief system or to him personally.

The post in question might have been an honest mistake, but it was a very tactless way of asking the question.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
 
Another thing Hatrackers excel in is pointing out other's faults while being just as guilty as the ones they are accusing.
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
If that was directed at me, I don't think I've insulted OSC in particular or Mormons overall.

I will, however, welcome any corrections to that observation.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
 
It was not directed solely at you, nor was I referring to insults exclusively leveled at OSC or Mormons.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
TMedina...........I DO recall something about you when you first started here, IIRC....

[ April 30, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
I remember I once asked what a landmark was, as a newbie, and was asked to leave.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Sorry, Tom, you're troll meter is way off on this one.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"It was not directed solely at you..."

But ten bucks says it wasn't directed at digging_holes, either.

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Liz, I just don't agree. If you look back over Hammer's posts, you see two types: attention-grabbing fluff, and highly offensive, holier-than-thou "Mormons first" posturing. It leaves two possibilities: either he really has no idea that this is how he comes across, or he's doing it deliberately.

[ April 30, 2005, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Well, that's fine, but I still think it is an interesting question, and now I will never, ever ask it for fear someone thinks I am being holier-than-they.
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Pffft. Sorry Kwea - that covers a whole lot of ground.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 


I know.....
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 

quote:

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"How does your faith as a Mormon affect your decision in word choice and sexual innuendo?"

"I thought you were Mormon - what's with the obscenity and sexual innuendo?"

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quote:

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Hatrackers, like all other human beings, are not immune from being deeply stupid and arbitrarily intolerant sometimes. Especially towards newbies.

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quote:

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If anybody remembers / has a link to my first post, let me know. I'm curious as to how I sounded back then.

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I'd like that too, please.

[ April 30, 2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
 

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Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
 
Ok, but I don't think there is reference to any penipoda in that particular post
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
I love when a new person posts something that people find offensive. They call him on it, then other people with no stake in it call them on their reaction, which leads to this ridiculous debate every time over whether or not they are a troll and whether or not some members are intolerant to new members. History repeating in an endless circle.

Liz: Yes, it is an interesting question. However, as others have stated, it was asked in an accusatory and poorly done fashion. There are ways of asking without being so caustic. I don't think Hammer is a troll, because there isn't enough evidence for that, but I do think he should have phrased his question differently. Think how many people come here and mess up their first few posts, then go on to be perfectly productive members of the community. If nobody ever called them on their behavior and explained what it was they were doing wrong, how could they evolve into the people we know today?

Hammer showed poor judgement. Yes, so do we all from time to time, but that doesn't make us immune to criticism and harsh language when it happens. I have every faith that Hammer will take these things into consideration next time he starts a thread.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
To be honest, I haven't seen a lot of name calling, and I don't think we have been as hard on him as we have been on others in the past....or course, those others had given us a LOT more reason to react that way by the time we did anything about it.

I remember a lot of people being more than a little rude when they first started here, an ven now some people go too far sometimes....

I just don't think we have done so this time.

Kwea

[ April 30, 2005, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Hammer (Member # 7528) on :
 
I shudder to post anything on this site. That's a fact, not an attack.

For the record, I did post two "stories" The Mirror, and The Prisoner. Was that attention drawing fluff or perhaps an attempt to get involved in this site as a newbie?

Axiom Axis was an attempt to get people to know me a little and have some fun with words. I guess that's fluff. But that didn't work since no one really was interested. Hammer's headliners was an attempt to put a smile on someone's face, but that must be fluff as well.

So where does that leave me? Start a thread and worry that people will be offended, attacked or PO'd if they don't like the question I ask, respond to other's post and risk being labeled as holier than thou if I offer a different paradigm, or start a thread of brainless humor and be accused of attention grabbing fluff.

Seems to be a lose lose proposition.

Frankly, it's just not worth it.

"No, Hammer's being lambasted for being a self-righteous a-hole"

I guess coming from TomDavidson this is not considered judgmental or malicious.

To all of you, way too much time has been wasted on Hammer. for that I apologize.

Take care.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Hammer, no one is going to be liked by everyone else. You've received an answer to your question, which is more response than most people have ever gotten from our host. You've been defended, you've been politely told why the question might be offensive, and you've been called names. That's a pretty standard range of responses.

At the same time, you have been told on several occasions that your word choice can be considered offensive. You have the opportunity to take that information and learn how to present your ideas more effectively if you choose to.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Or you can choose to leave.

Lets make it clear before you do though...you aren't being banned, as a lot of people have been. No one has even asked you to leave. You aren't being driven off, or attacked without reason.

TomD has a fairly good troll-o-meter, but it isn't infallible...

You basically implied that our host was whoring out his craft in an un-Mormon like fashion to increase his profits, while you walked along a higher path yourself..although it's heights did stop you from shouting down to us people who like arcades how holy you are because of it.

You got an actual reply from OSC himself, in the first day... something I have never gotten at all in 4 years here at Hatrack....directly refuting your claims...both those you spelled out and those you implied, knowingly or not.

And basically all you were told was that you were fairly transparent in your motivations and assumptions, and that next time you should be a little more careful about how you phrase things in a public forum.

I have one thing to say to you....

Grow up.

I doubt you are a troll, and was/am willing to give you more than the benefit of the doubt, but enough is enough. No one is throwing cabbages at you, and more than a couple of people have spoken in your defense. If this is your idea of persecution, then let me tell you, you have no clue.

Suck it up and move on. I got worse then this for no reason at all when I started, and others have as well. I didn't even imply anyones faith was unsatisfactory...I just chose the wrong time for my first post.

Also, your first threads included more than a couple of on the edge posts in fairly controversial topics...when TomD mentioned you I looked up your post history. If you look at the responses you got in your own threads, you probably would notice that you got a fair number of replies, better than some of mine get at times. You haven't been ignored, or lambasted before this, not that I saw....at least not too much.

Kwea

[ April 30, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"TomD has a fairly good troll-o-meter, but it isn't infallible..."

Well, okay. If you say so.
That said, in all seriousness, I'm on the fence about apologizing to Hammer. I hadn't seriously considered the possibility that he really didn't know how he was presenting himself, but his last post sounded like sincere frustration to me. I'm pretty ruthless, I'll admit, but it's never my intent to scare off people who genuinely want to fit in and just can't find a niche.

I worded my initial criticism of him in this thread too harshly, and I'm sorry for that.

---------

As a side note, Liz, it IS an interesting question, although there's still a hidden trap in it. Even if you word it carefully, like "As a Mormon author, how do you weigh your responsibility to the decorum demanded by your faith against your responsibility to verisimilitude demanded by your audience," OSC's still smart enough to sense in that the same trap he's had slung his way a hundred times. I mean, let's face it, "Why do you write homosexual characters into your novels so often," is an interesting question, too, but I really pity the poor newbie who comes on here and asks this out of genuine innocent curiosity.

I've actually had similar conversations with Geoff on a related topic, but it took some explaining to convince him that I was genuinely interested and not trying to set him up. I think if Hammer had gone that route, rather than the one he chose, things would have gone differently.

[ April 30, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Hell, Tom, look at some of the topics we have stumbled in from time to time here. We got pasted just like Hammer did here, on more than on occasion.

Sometimes for more reason, sometimes for less.

I don't think Hammer is a troll, because a troll does that sort of thing on purpose, but I don't feel real bad about the beginning ot that thread....I was pretty fair I think, until he began the whole "justifying" song and dance. Even then I pulled a punch here adn there, saying that I might haev just misunderstood his intent.

Oh well, I hope he learns from this, as I did. I wasn't the smoothest poster on the board when I began, either....

Hell, I'm still not..

Kwea
 

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Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
 
If I delete a thread that I made, that other people had posted on, does it lower my post count, and theirs?

*hopes that made sense*
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Tom, I think you are right. There are some questions that are so loaded that there is not ever a very good way of asking them. Still, I sensed that Hammer did not have a hidden agenda, but really wanted to know.

At least, I do not feel that his agenda was consciously hidden. Sometimes, Hatracians can uncover agendas that the person didn't even know they were hiding.
 

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Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
 
What's with all this troll talk? This was quite obviously not trolling. This was prudish whining. But that happens. It's not trolling.

Now that guy about two years ago who managed to fill the entirety of the first pages on both forums with disgusting threads full of gratuitous filth, which resulted in the suspension of registering new names for a while...THAT was trolling.
 

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Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
 
Tater, the post counts don't lower when posts are deleted. I'd have a much lower post count, if they did.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Theca, have I mentioned lately that you're one of my favorite people? I know you don't post much, but I'm glad you're around.

[ May 01, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I think the real question for all newbies (or almost all) is: Are you willing to grow at the cost of your ego, or is it not worth it to you? Obviously, I feel that the blow to my ego was worth everything I've gained and learned from Hatrack. I guess for some people it's not.
 

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