I can't seem to find a good number on the # of Iraqi civilian deaths in Iraq. The sites that I've seen from google searches range from 20,000 - 100,000.
If what I read is correct, the US doesn't even keep track of Iraqi deaths:
“We don’t do body counts” - General Tommy Franks, US Central Command
Does this seem wrong to anyone else? We seem so devastated by the 1500 or so deaths of our military but don't even care to COUNT the many more deaths of Iraqi CIVILIANS?
Pfft.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dude, everything about this war is wrong to me. With the exception of getting Saddam out of power.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Part of the problem is how to count the deaths. Do car bombs count? If so, why should they? If not, why don't they? Does crime count? There is no accurate way to count any civilian deaths. Both sides will use very different numbers depending on how you count them. Does the suicide car bomber count as a civilian death? How about civilians lined up to join the military/police force? Are they really civilians or not? Another interesting statistic would be how many civilians died under Saddam?
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
simple, deaths caused from either direct or indirect american involvment in iraq ranging from the sanctions to shock and awe. That should be about a couple million.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
Essentially whenever there was an order form the Pentagon.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Nice way to put it. Any death that you could possibly blame on America, no matter how far you have to stretch is part of the America Loves to Kill death count. Like if an Iraqi was distracted by an American pop song on the radio and he crashes his car and dies, that should be rightly placed at the feet of the death hungry American Military. Curious how it is just America getting the blame when the sanctions were imposed by the UN, but we can't possibly blame anyone else for any deaths because America is the only country to ever kill anyone in Iraq, or in the world for that matter. Yes we love to kill, we mighty Americans, its all we know how to do. If we see anything even move, we just kill it. We have never tried to protect any civilian's life ever. Iraq was a peaceful oasis in the desert until Rove and Haliburton decided to kill Iraqi civilians simply because they can. I don't think anyone died at any time in Iraq until America got into the picture and just started to kill everyone in sight. Saddam was running the most peaceful country on Earth until America decided to use up all the bullets we could lay our hands on. We had to shoot them at something, so why not Iraqi civilians?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Actually we are very interested in Colaterial damage numbers, but that said, the statistics used by various methods are very politically motivated. It is interesting to note that there has only been a trivial increase in the death rate for Iraq. In other words all this violence is not causing even a diviation from the norm for deaths. I am not sure about maiming and injury statistics.
Unfortunately we are very very good and breaking things and killing people. If nothing else Iraq serves to remind the world that was not impressed by Afganistan but should have been since the Russians never subdued in eight years, that when they fail to play nice, we are capable of breaking their balls. Now they also know we will grimly soak up the damage we need to finish the job.
We can only hope that they run Hillary in '08 so that whatever Republican dud we have to go with can win on the 'I ain't her!' ticket. So we do not return to the "The United States will run if you prick them" Democrat policies of the Clinton years.
BC
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
By the way, I am not Dark Night, but I do like him!
BC
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
yeah... right... [cough]ridoculas[/cough]. I meant any civilian Iraqi death that was directly or indirectly caused by American orders, but yes indeed I should also say American AND UN orders. Sanctions I've heard killed 1,000,000 iraqi children because of starvation, but yes you can blame it on America if it says "Made in the USA" on the bomb fragments.
Posted by Promethius (Member # 2468) on :
Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
So are the French and the Russians and Germans then resposible for the deaths that were caused by their manufatured weapons, or the oil money that propped Saddam up and kept the sanctions hurting only those he did not care about?
We have broad shoulders but as Heinlien wrote Power and Responsibility are two sides of a balanced equation, if we assume the responsibility then we must weild the power. You cannot have us responsible and ineffectual at the same time as Clinton did.
George W. Bush has bent the region to our will to the point where everybody is reponding to what we do or might do, that is called having the innitiative, like being the white pieces in chess. After being set back on heels by 911, I am proud to be on the offensive.
Remeber that the you cannot be innocent and also have your way. The act of bending the world to the shape you desire entails destroying the shape it was in.
In the end you can only hope that people you care about will get to Heaven in numbers enough to pray you out of Hell, before the bodyguard you take with you wears out!
BC
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
By taking the initiative as you put it you increase the chances of a group of terrorists getting their hands on a dirty bomb and detonating it in an oil reserve! Costing god knows how many billions of dollars to overthrow a singly tyrant when there are dozens of others who are your friends and allies who I might add origianally overthrew democractically elected administrations becuase they were "too socialist" for America's liking with American arms and money.
You have a debt of trillions of dollars, a declining economy and a military run by cost cutting baurocrats. Step down America and let other nations take their rightful place in the sun before terrorists blow up a city with a captured nuke made in the USSR.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote: “We don’t do body counts” - General Tommy Franks, US Central Command
I'm gonna need to know the exact context surrounding this sans context quote.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I see a path on which we grow out of that debt, and on which we grow stronger with each passing year. Soon as we are seeing the rest of the world will realize that if you want to play in the big game, you throw your weight to us and learn what we know how to do. The Isrealies learned to fly fighters from us and now they do it better then we do!
Same with the South Korean Marines... Opps gota go eat!
I hate it when urls mess up the format on my screen.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
There will never be an acurate count of the dead, becouse the U.S., somewhat tellingly, does not count civilian deaths. And, how is one to tell is the young child who died of pnemunia cought it as a result of his family's house being destroyed in the fighting, or if he would have contracted it anyway?
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I thought BC was gone.... when did that change?
Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
Technically, sanctions are a product of the State Department, not the Dept. of Defense. And in his defense, Gen Franks was most likely, in context, refuting a comparison of Iraq to Vietnam's bogus measures of military success, not making a statement of apathy toward the civilian death toll.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
BC is on Block Leave 10 days to have fun and then off to Iraq! (Around the 15th) Try to keep up!
BC
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Yeah, I was wondering when we'd get around to whether we know death counts from any other war besides this one.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It isn't that we can't keep up, it is two other things.
Why should we care, and why should we believe you ever again.
Kwea
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
In reply to those who mentioned the deaths due to starvation caused by sanctions.
Please take a look at the multiple ornate palaces that were built by saddam, and also at the billions that he withdrew as he fled. Most of those people could have been fed if the iraqi government had wanted them to be.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Exactly right Ricree101. America is blamed for deaths from sanctions when we did not put sanctions against them. The UN did. I think we have all heard about the corrupt Oil for Food program that was run by Mr. Annan that stole the money that was supposed to by food. Now how those deaths are blamed on us, and not on the UN and Saddam is beyond me. I guess it is just easier to blame America for the crimes of others.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
quote: I see a path on which we grow out of that debt, and on which we grow stronger with each passing year.
I see micheal jackson having sex with Angelina Jolie on this same path.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I am happy to see that you still spend your (Kwea)abundant vitrol on things you do not care about, and more then pleased to answer with the question, "Why did you waste belief on me in the first place?"
I consider belief that one knows me to be a far greater assault on my spirit then if you attacked me with a shovel. It is a small person indeed who can be known. Perhaps that is what you aspire to be? Good luck with it!
BC
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
lol, you think you'll climb out of debt doing what your government is currently doing? And the fact that whenever you have an election theres a 50% chance that whatever the previous administration was doing is going to be undone by the next administration. Also these military adventures cost BILLIONS of dollars no matter how short it lasts and Iraq shall become YOUR Spanish ulcer draining your nation of whatever ability you have to reamin a super power while nations on the rise like China, India and Japan will gladly take the reigns of power from you.
However it is conceivable that America will retain enough of its strengh to remain somewhat in the picture like Britain and France after WWI, in fact most likely the world will redivide itself on new dividing lines of realpolitik. Japan, Taiwan, India, China + a whole assortment of other small pacific nations in one camp, America + America's + NATO nations minus a few in another and finally a second warsaw pact calling themselves Eurasia. It's a possibility depends on how technology advances and which nations become economic power houses. and which ones lose theirs.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Actually, closer to $100billion per year: ie so far, the tax bill for war is over $1000 per man, woman, and child in the USA.
[ May 04, 2005, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Hee Heee....
The thing I love about the future is how many people it takes by surprise.
You cannot grow corn on the internet, and all a dollar is is a piece of paper that will probably cause cancer if you wipe with it too much. First you have to know what Power is, then maybe you will be able to see where it has been and guess where it is going!
BC
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:In other words all this violence is not causing even a diviation from the norm for deaths.
Yay! With all the deaths the war has caused it STILL isn't worse then it was before!
That IS a good thing!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Ok, I understand not taking the blame for all the deaths in Iraq.
I understand that the deaths in that country are political fodder, to be used by those against the war as proof of evil intentions noone ever had.
But, shouldn't some track of the population of Iraq, and what is causing the deaths of thier people be a responsibility that the ruling government handles.
And, until recently, wasn't the US and its allies, and later the interim government propped up by the US, that ruling group?
So if we have no idea about the true number of Iraqi war casualties, we appear to be dismissing their pain and deaths as unimportant.
The insurrigents are the main cause of war deaths in Iraq, not the US military. I think screaming that these people have murdered thousands of your friends and neighbors would be a good way of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.
Are accurate counts being done?
Can we demonstrate we care about those dieing, even if they are not wearing the uniforms of the US or its allies?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Hah, this is politics Dan.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
And I very much suggest that you, BeanCounter, study SidMeier's reference to the "SpanishDisease". Spain's looted wealth allowed it to import everything, throwing Spanish workers -- even shoemakers -- out of work in favor of imports and imported workers. Manufacturing nothing for itself, Spain gradually slipped into the backwaters of history after Columbus found the Americas to loot. Even the fabled SpanishArmada was built by foreign workers and manned mostly by foreign mercenaries.
When was the last time that America produced a significant percentage of even its own shoes? Add that the US doesn't even have the manufacturing facilities to make its own IntegratedCircuits vital for its own high-technology defensive&offensive weapons systems.
[ May 05, 2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Spain thought it was importing wealth, it was really importing money. Ask the Nazi's how well having more money worked out. We are not mercantilists any more, however I am more sypathetic with your opinion then you know. If China stops fixing their currency to ours and lets it float free we may see some return of manufacturing here in the States. However it is hardly the critical issue you seem to think it is.
We lead the world in the manufature of machine tools and that means that come the day we can always tool up and make it american again.
We cannot all sell each other coffee, but eventually reguardless of what else happens those things we all need to have will be provided by less then ten percent of the population. That leaves ninety percent providing things we just want. It is the case already with farming. Your quaint notions of economics will certainly need updating as this transformation takes place.
BC
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
One of things I don't understand is how bad our current economy is, how terrible the job market is and yet the unemployment rate of 5% is the same as it was during the booming Clinton years. How is this possible? All we hear about is no jobs, massive layoffs, yet the unemployment rate is the same (0.1% lower actually). Of course we don't hear about the rate anymore, we just hear how many thousands more are without jobs than in the last decade. I guess the fact that the population has increased by millions is escaping a lot of people out there. Despite all the doom and gloom forecasted by the experts, we are doing well and have been doing well DESPITE some major difficulties. Remember 9/11? We lost how many jobs that day? How long was Wall Street shut down? How many days of no air travel? Let's also not forget that a recession had started BEFORE President Bush took office. The Dot-Com burst happened before his presidency, but when you have a republican President, no one ever gets a job, and everyone becomes poor.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Dark, the problem is that people who were making $25.00/hr making shoes lose those jobs. They don't sit around waiting in vain for another $25.00/hr job. They take what they can get to keep there families fed, including taking 2 $10/hr jobs serving coffee at Starbucks and flipping burgers at McDonalds.
Remember, there isn't much difference between a Service Economy, and an Economy of Servants, fighting for the jobs to spoil the wealthy few.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Which proves the point I was making above. We are all slaves to our wealthy overlords! Just kidding.... This is not the 1940's anymore. The world has changed. The expectation of being a shoemaker from birth to death (and $25 an hour for someone to make a shoe is too much! We should build a machine to do that better, faster and cheaper so we don't have to pay $200 for a shoe, or better yet send that job overseas so we can help their economy too) is long gone. Technology changes everything too fast. Nothing is done the way it used to be anymore. We have to learn to adapt or be left behind. It's in every single field out there. Even McDonald's is changing how they do things. Yes, they will have to change their jobs, possibly even their whole careers, but who wants to be stuck doing the same thing day after day. And yes they can sit home in vain collecting unemployment waiting for another $25/hour shoe job to open up. They do it all the time here in PA, you do not have to do a thing here to collect unemployment....well, you can't work is the only requirement
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
"Yes, they will have to change their jobs, possibly even their whole careers, but who wants to be stuck doing the same thing day after day."
Yeah, it's a real drag, doing what you like and know how to do while trying to feed your family. Me, I prefer living life to the "extreme:" one day I'm a shoemaker, the next day a neurosurgeon, and the day after that I'm polishing the robots that fix the neurosurgeons.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: There will never be an acurate count of the dead, becouse the U.S., somewhat tellingly, does not count civilian deaths.
What is the reason for this? They counted civilian deaths when we were attacked. Don't other countries deserve the same?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
It seems to me that we counted ours, why should we have to count theirs as well? Apart from keeping them low, we should not have to be obsessed by them. They will tell us what the numbers are and then we can just estimate the accuracy of thier report and know them better thereby.
BC
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
What's this "theirs"? We were in charge in Iraq for a good time, the civilians there were "ours".
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
Am I the only one that thought that website was really sad? Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
No, I've linked to the website before. I've looked at every picture. Reminded by each, in one way or another, of old friends, of the times we had together. Wonder what those soldiers life coulda been like...if. Especially the youngsters who hadn't really yet had the time.
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)