I have been recently alerted by a member of this forum, whose name I keep anonymous, that when I joined Hatrack I was - "strident, a little offensive at times, rather arrogant". Of course, over time, said (s)he, I slowly got into the spirit of Hatrack. And true, there was a time, when if I posted a thread, many would come and read it, reply, comment, and all the stuff that derives from it. Lately, however, things returned to this situation - where I'm arrogant, offensive and defiant. There was a time where all the things I said would fill your head. There was a time where TomDavidson, Bob_Scopatz, rivka, ketchupqueen, Raia, Annie, Anna, Kwea, Kama, Papa Moose, Sara Sasse and many others would post regularly on my threads - or quite commonly.
Today, if I post on a thread, unless it's offensive and therefore my motives are questioned, the post is neglected. My threads became rather short, with few posts as replies. I am not blaming here except for myself. The one who sent me the e-mail was right, and I am deeply sorry for not noticing it. Recently I offended Kama by posting a few Polish jokes, and scared off ketchupqueen with a horrible Freudian remark. Within about 36 hours, Papa Janitor was required to delete and censor those two posts due to my harshness. I am returning to where I was at my 300th post..
Mostly I post threads, and I answer less. I simply can't believe that this is happening. This is turning into 3rd grade... I was miserable, and this is what's happening now. Please, save a poor 15 y.o. (in a few days, so I can finally call myself 15 without feeling wrong)!
I'm serious, there are now basically two people who post on my threads - Raia and SteveRogers; I even managed to scare off Orson Scott Card! This is something that's unacceptable from the forum's point of view. I've got to change. All will accept though, that before I do anything, I've got to find the root of the problem: I've got some assumptions, but I want to know when did this regression happen again? I need to be a more pleasant person, and to take a long, hard look at myself.
Maybe it's something that only happens on the Forum, I don't know. Ask Raia for details - אין הנחתום מעיד על עיסתו (the baker does not testify upon (gr?) his own dough). I'm usually a "charming young fellow" whenever I'm invited for a Saturday dinner (or dessert), and my friends' place has guests. There even was one who said: "and I told him, 'Why don't you send Jonathan and Michael over to my place in Chicago for a Sabbath? You really should'." I don't know how I can be both this and that. It's not like I'm trying to be arrogant here or act aggressively, superior or in any way am I trying to troll around or get on others' nerves. On the contrary! I like you people more than anyone else on Earth...
So when did this all start, and does anyone beside me have assumptions why?
JH
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Greetings from one cuastic, rude and rather prentisious teen to another.
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
Im relatively new here, and i dont think people know or value my opinion on anything. But by posting that message you make yourself out to be a socially inept deprived teenager. Thats not the way to make people like you. Be better. Don't talk about being better. Read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie(I think? last name spelling?) Its an awesome book and most of it can be applied to webforums.
But who am i to talk.. Im only 15
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think some stresses in your life are influencing your behavior. May I suggest that it's better to talk about them and get sympathy than mask them with jokes at the expense of others? Also, your sense of humor may need a little bump; I think it's a little out of line with the mainstream HR sense of humor right now. I don't think people are "ignoring" you except when you post things they can't reply to civilly. I'm sorry you feel this way. Let's talk about fixing it.
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
Sweetheart, I find myself at times with too little energy to keep up with all of your posts. We are like cats -- me, the old furball that likes to drowse in the sun, and you, the kitten, the one that springs around and chases everything regardless of whether or not it is moving.
Doesn't mean I don't like you, doesn't mean that there is something wrong with you (or me, for that matter). Just that if one wishes to play with other kittens, high emotion and energy is received enthusiastically and well-reciprocated. In contrast, to get an older cat to bat around a ball, you have to spend some time sitting quietly next to her, downplay the frenzy a bit, and then kind of lazily nudge something interesting her way.
Otherwise she'll wander off to find a quieter spot. Or, if she is particularly lazy, she'll just close her eyes and nod off a bit. *grin
If you want to try an experiment, maybe confine yourself to starting no more than three threads a week. Spend your time responding thoughtfully to others' posts there, in a measured way. Not just "hey, cool, thanks for replying" or "I'm so glad you posted on my thread," but responses that are detailed and bring something substantial back to the conversation. I can almost guarantee that you will catch more of the big, lazy, somnolent fish that way. If that is what you want, of course.
--CT [SaraSasse]
[Edit: Er, and what ketchupqueen said. I haven't been around in awhile, and it sounds like she has her finger on the pulse of the thing.]
[ May 07, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
Jonathan, I find you absolutely delightful, by the way. Were I also fifteen, I have no doubt I'd be jumping right in there with you.
Even being a slow and sluggish thirty-five, I've never found you less than interesting. Trust me -- that is a compliment.
--CT
[ May 07, 2005, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I disagree, Lanfear... I think the fact that he wants to improve it, and ask people's advice on how, is very admirable.
Speaking as someone who had certain issues of "fitting in" all through life (and trust me, they're not over yet), I can identify with this. Many times I wanted people to tell me what they think I'm doing wrong, so that I can stop doing it. I think this is a fine thread, and Jonny, I think you've really recognized now most of what may come off as snarky to other people. I think if you decide on changes, based on what people here tell you, and actually stick to them, you and everyone else will be much happier. Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I will respond to this seriously in 6 hours, when I wake up. I have several responses ready, but must go to bed now.
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
Maybe I'm a little quick to judge. I was a little loose with my tongue in my youth (yes im only 15 now ). It just sounds like he's trying to get ya'll to say "Oh we like you fine." "Your not that bad" "Not EVERYONE feels that way" It seems that his intention was for the sympathy factor, and not because he actually wants to change. THats what i can gather from reading his post
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Lanfear, someone brought his recent posts up to him, and he wants to fix his problem. Sounds good to me.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Hey, I stopped posting regularly in all the political/discussion-of-serious-topics threads a while back, simply because my debating skills don't hold a candle to anyone on the forum. Most of my opinions are the result of feelings that can't be explained with facts and numbers, so I usually choose to just read what other people say about things and see how I feel about things when I learn new information. You're a good kid Jon. We all like you here. I'm sure I've managed to tick a few people off in my time, though no one has ever mentioned it to me. I think what you need to do is care for yourself for who you are, and care for everyone else no matter who they are. Yeah, I know. Easier said than done, but it never hurts to try Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"There was a time where all the things I said would fill your head."
Bah. You've only been regularly posting here for a few months; there hasn't been enough time for there to have been another time for you, Jon. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I agree with what the other folks, and have this to say. Just because people aren't always replying to your posts doesn't mean that you're suddenly boring. People don't always reply to your posts. It is a fact of life. It doesn't say anything about you.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I haven't been posting much at all these days. Mostly weekends and some nights. Anyway, I haven't been ignoring your posts. I've been too busy with work to do much more than pop in at Hatrack to see if there are any new pun opportunities, then go away again.
(by the way, look at the posts I made today. 3 new threads, one got some comments, one has 2 posts in reply, and one got zero. ZERO! It just happens.)
By the way, OSC posts are real rarity around here. I think he's posted ONCE in a thread I started. I was blown away. I got all finger-tied and couldn't type for a week!
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Jonathan, the most important thing to remember is that the world doesn’t revolve around you. You didn’t scare OSC off. People post or don’t post for their own reasons, often having to do with their work, school, or family schedules. It’s not about you. Remember that, and it will help you with the arrogance thing too.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Yep. It's about me!
Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
See Jonathan, do you really want to be like that when you grow up?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
bump
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Okay, I've had my sleep:
Pelegius, why don't you consider a change too? Break away from the stereotypical teenager's behaviour, or you'll end up... in a less Hatracked place when an adult.
Lanfear, about your firt post - I don't see it that way. I think that posting about this thing just lets people know that I think I need to work on my sympathy, and basically apologising to those who suffered from my arrogance. I don't really believe that social skills and influence I gain by reading those books; I'm happy you're reading them, but it's not my way of gaining influence and social respect.
Ketchupqueen, I think that things in my life are influencing this behaviour, but I'm not sure precisely what. Maybe my teachers' arrogance, maybe it's the fact that I'm spending more and more time in my room, at school or out, and less with my family (the snowball effect). But dealing with the wrong thing at the wrong time may be the only risk in trying to solve these problems. I'm not going to any profesional help - for ideological reasons. First time I'm saying it seriously, not laughing at psychologists; but I seriously believe that I should not do that. My humour is going down the drain, which is a shame. I used to be funny once.
CT/SS/Mf, I have been entitled "The Hatrack Puppy" before. This is because I'm young, energetic, go too far and then do a puppy-smile and apologise later on. So maybe I'm not a sun-dozer, but that doesn't mean that I can start annoying the other cats in the garden while I touch anything that moves and doesn't move. But maybe it is time... Time to shove my nose deep into the forum and become a lurker...
quote: Were I also fifteen, I have no doubt I'd be jumping right in there with you.
Maybe my "Fellowship of the Teens" plan will work!
Raia,
quote: I disagree, Lanfear... I think the fact that he wants to improve it, and ask people's advice on how, is very admirable.
I don't know about "admirable", but one thing is certain - that it's what I believe is right, and the proper way to do it. I was primarily arrogant oon Hatrack, so it should be addressed here with an apology.
quote: It just sounds like he's trying to get ya'll to say "Oh we like you fine." "Your not that bad" "Not EVERYONE feels that way"
I was thinking of calling this the Tom Davidson Suspicion, but apparently he's not the only one... However, that is not my aim. I can make a rejoicing thread to make everyon happy, then say something nice about everyone; I didn'r do that, I posted a thread about my arrogance.
quote: Yeah, I know. Easier said than done, but it never hurts to try
Yup, one more I've not quite intended to insult, but almost called him an ape. Of course, your advice is correct, and this statement is too. Only thing is, I have nothing to say about it!
quote: "There was a time where all the things I said would fill your head."
It's from a Beatles song, Tom. "There'll be a time where all the things she said will fill your haid / You won't forget her".
quote: Just because people aren't always replying to your posts doesn't mean that you're suddenly boring. People don't always reply to your posts. It is a fact of life. It doesn't say anything about you.
It's all nice that people reply to my posts, but I saw a certain drift-away. So while it's all very nice that some reply and some don't - and every thread is like that - there's been a difference in the type of people that post, the things they write about, and basically that derives from the thread and the threadwriter.
quote: Anyway, I haven't been ignoring your posts.
I know, you're an exception to the ones-with-Post Counts-over-or-nearing-15000. But as I remember OSC was gaining 100 posts a night, or so...
quote: People post or don’t post for their own reasons, often having to do with their work, school, or family schedules. It’s not about you.
Thing is, they drifted off my threads. And probably for a reason... I seem to almost kill the "Begging The Question" thread... There, anything is allowed (almost).
quote: See Jonathan, do you really want to be like that when you grow up?
If I can ever get to writing a landmark the way Bob did with his 11,000th, yes, I very much DO want to end up like that!
Sorry if anything sounded harsh, unusual, weird or - Heavens forbid - offensive. JH
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Jonny, there's no need to apologize. You haven't done anything wrong. The only reason you feel uncomfortable is that you're in a community where the majority of members are older than you, and therefore have different approaches. I think that's what makes Hatrack unique, and separates it from all the "teen forums" where nobody cares about grammar, spelling, or political correctness. Here, we maintain a standard that's more suited to a RL society than to your classic internet forum. Sometimes, it takes a little adjusting, but it's always worth it. That's why Hatrack is so special.
Nobody's asking you to change who you are... if people take offense, it's usually from the way you express yourself in your posts than from the actual content. Not always, but contextually offensive posts, or posters, are usually banned. You don't need to reach that point, all you can try and do is be a little more aware of what sets other people on edge. I, personally, have never been offended by a single one of your posts, and find many of them very interesting/amusing/a fun read.
Don't worry! We all love you here.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Jon, sometimes you come across - to me - as desperate for attention. It seems like your frenetic energy could be a mask for insecurity. If you calm down and be yourself, you'll be fine and we'll like you fine. There's no need to be a show-off or the centre of attention. Not that I think you're like that all the time - I don't. But that is how it seems to me sometimes. Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: Yup, one more I've not quite intended to insult, but almost called him an ape.
Oh, I didn't mind that. I do look like an ape. I mean, just look at me!!! Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
J.H. You're young, we know that and youths have a way of being endearing as well as grating. Sometimes you'll be loved and sometimes not. You're not the best little boy nor the worst. Do your best to consider the import of your words and you'll be fine. I was young once and although that was longer ago than I like to admit I remember the desire for adult recognition. You're a part of Hatrack and we do appreciate you even if you are occasionally strident.
[ May 08, 2005, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: Thing is, they drifted off my threads. And probably for a reason...
It only seems like that to you because you are the center of your own universe. You aren’t the center of everyone’s. If you’re serious about working on your arrogance, start there.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Eh. Don't worry. You're aweseome in your own special way.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
So, basically I have too much egocentricity? I'm not trying to provoke or anything, just trying to figure out this... I mean, I hang around with friends and all, but maybe people just expect much of me and over-motivate my abilities?
Or, maybe I developed this skill?
JH
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I think you just need to mellow out a bit. Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I think you need to get out of the mindset that you need to be something very specific in order to fit in. Just be yourself. That's all anybody asks.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I almost never start threads. Now there are those who start lots of threads and a lot of them are funny, they do some searching around the web and bring us an interesting item. They are giving something to Hatrack. Book has gone through some good phases of this. Bob_Scopatz is probably the only mega-member who starts many threads, and they are always about bringing something to Hatrack. Tom D, kat, Dagonee, rivka, start relatively few threads. mack is somewhere in the middle.
As far as getting over your "problem" I find it helps to look at a situation through someone else's eyes. And if tone of voice is necessary to enjoyment of what you wrote, at least 2/3rds of the people won't enjoy it. That is why I very seldom use sarcasm here. But then, I think sarcasm in general is an immature form of humor. I haven't really noticed this trend of which you speak. Did you scare OSC off your thread of off hatrack altogether?
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
Jonathon, it is the nature of teenage years to be self-involved, to be giddy with delight at your prowesses and writhe in agony over your misses. Developmentally, it is appropriate.
I think this may be hard to hear for you (as it was for me) because you are indeed very very bright. Still, intellectual advancement does not mean emotional advancement, nor does it mean wisdom. Certain kinds of wisdom and knowledge require experience. Not the kinds of experience you can pack into a year, but the kind of experience that is just the passage of time -- seeing, over time, similar problems and stories arising. Watching yourself and your family as seasons come and go, passing through the joys and stresses of holiday after holiday after holiday. Memorials. Time.
You can't be forty at fifteen. Not entirely. And there is really no reason to change -- you are fine just the way you are, as you, now. However, if you want to learn more about yourself (which is one of the grandest quests in life -- to learn more about yourself as you become less absorbed with yourself is a tricky, tricky business), I'd suggest the same experiment as I did above.
Go for depth rather than breadth. Quality over quantity. Limit yourself in posting new threads, but get thoughtfully involved in the ones that are already there.
In fact, you can start here. Probe deep and puzzle through this: why are you troubled by what you see happening? Why does what you see bother you?
And don't run to draw a conclusion (like " Time to shove my nose deep into the forum and become a lurker ..."). Don't ask questions -- answer them instead.
What is it that is bothering you? What would be wrong with people sometimes responding to your posts, sometimes not, and Hatrack just revolving along pretty much the same? Why would that hurt?
--CT
[ May 08, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]
Posted by Homonculus (Member # 7486) on :
I'm a relatively new poster, but I have been following posts here for quite a few years. What I admire about Hatrack is the amount of respect that is upheld within the posts. It is never about hit and run insults. Serious thing are debated here (and lord knows I've had some help with my writing with this site).
Jonathan, I speak to you as someone that was probably a lot like you. However, I had an extra factor in the equation: aggresion. Trust me, the fact that you realised your "defects" and faced them by placing your first post, shows that you are on the right way to mend things.
We were all arrogant when were 15. That's the beauty of being that age, we think we can conquer the worl, if not more. Don't worry, as you mature (not that you already aren't), your self-perception will mold into what you want it to be.
Just make sure you think things through before you jump straight into things. As Mayfly said, take your time with posts. There's absolutely no hurry. This is not a battle for who can post the most threads. On that note, I believe that so far, this has become quite a successful one, don't you think?
Anyway, relax, breathe, whatever.
Don't worry too much about what other people think. In the end, your concept of self is also pretty important.
Hope this helps
Posted by Desdemona (Member # 7100) on :
I am a teenager- and insted of posting like you do, I lurk, and am afraid to post anything. I second-guess myself until the thread has moved on so far that there's no use posting in them. I am scared someone will call me on lack of knowladge in the serious debate threads, so I don't post there. You and I, we have the opposite probems. I tend to come out of my shell a bit in chat, however.
I second the advice that everyone's given. It is good, all of it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"This is because I'm young, energetic, go too far and then do a puppy-smile and apologise later on. So maybe I'm not a sun-dozer, but that doesn't mean that I can start annoying the other cats in the garden while I touch anything that moves and doesn't move."
Nope. This is the root of the misunderstanding, I think.
Someone called you a "puppy" because you're cheerful, energetic, and -- above all -- because you bounce up and down, yipping "Look at me! Look at me! Pay some freakin' attention to me, people, right NOW!" all the time. It has nothing to do with "going too far," and everything to do with the energetic jumping.
You are very, very self-absorbed; you are almost completely focused on what people think of you, and how you come off in public, and so forth. This is not unusual for a teenager, especially not an intelligent teenager who lacks respect for authority.
But this isn't to say that we don't like you, Jon; we like you just fine. It just means that we don't lie awake at night -- or, rather, most of us don't -- wondering what you think of us, and certainly not wondering what we think of you.
[ May 08, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I didn't read through yet, but I just wanted it to be clear that I have never in my life been offended by a Polish joke.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
quote: Someone called you a "puppy" because you're cheerful, energetic, and -- above all -- because you bounce up and down, yipping "Look at me! Look at me! Pay some freakin' attention to me, people, right NOW!" all the time. [Smile] It has nothing to do with "going too far," and everything to do with the energetic jumping.
[ May 08, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: St. Yogi ]
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
It's been my experience that poles are tall and skinny with a hard, shiny exterior.
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Hey Jonathan! Take it easy, okay? Not everyone can be Bob_Scopatz, TomDavidson, Dagonee, rivka, or "the" Papa Moose. Achieveing their status took them a very long time, and they're adults, they know a hell lot more than you do, and think in a more mature way. You don't have to impress anyone or try to sound interesting - because people already respect you for what you are. Be yourself, just think twice before posting and check if your post is offensive.
[ May 08, 2005, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Beanny ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I don't really feel that I need any exceptional attention. I was seemingly a spark of intelligence in a trivia game regarding the book of Esther (remembering the order of Hamman's sons, for instance - it was for Purim), and I'm regarded as an intelligent one in my class. I can always get to prove myself an exception.
And if I ned the attention I want for a certain objective that seems important enough to me (like this thread) - I will phrase it the right way and work on it seriously for a long time to get the message I need through.
So yes, Hatrack is packed with people whom to call knowledgeable geniuses would be an insult. If I need - and this has been done before - I can and will prove my capabilities and show my maximal potential. I may appear unhumble, but I regularly am quite so. I do not deny the fact that I am gifted, and I try to use this trait whenever possible, without ruining too much. However, this does not mean that any other - especially on this forum - cannot do so, or prove thmselves just as bright, and usually far more than me.
Which is, of course, why I'm afraid of screwing up. It happened once, and I really blew it all apart in the thread regarding "The Kiddo from Nazzareth". Moreover, it was Christmas at the time. I took the defensive sometimes, but usually got along pretty well. I am now again trying to construct a fort around me, and I've got several keeps in the making. It's not because I don't like Hatrack or think of it as a stupid place (except very few members - currently I'm thinking of one), or something like that; it's because I know that anytime I use a trait to get attention to something, it is because I subconsciously believe that if I don't, I will be lagging behind, and gt into the same equivalent position of one who's a whole year behind academically.
So I know, I can't change the world, but "Don't worry too much about what other people think. In the end, your concept of self is also pretty important" is a little hard. As a teenager on this forum, I have to think of what my position i, becuse I lack the tact that adults get through experience. Thank goodness I wasn't here at twelve, but fifteen is still not full.
My image to myself is something that has to be important in these years, because I don't want to suddenly "wake up" at age 25 and realise I was a hopeless idiot and a tactless person for 15 years, with a stigma following me as a slob and a hopeless nobody.
So yes, it's somthing that I don't like - this constant verification of one's status, but it's part of my teenagerhood, and even if I've probably matured philosophically and intelectually more than biologically and psychologically. But hey, not everyone grows like that hero of the film "The Fly II".
And... I'm surviving with my three-threads-a-week. Best thing about it - I wasted it all on saturday night, which is the end of the Jewish week.
JH
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
I just find it ridiculous that so many people feel such awe and reverence for Tom Davidson, Bob Scopatz, rivka, Dagonee, and whoever else has been mentioned in this thread. They're intelligent, and for the most part they write good posts. So freakin' what? The same could be said of a large number of posters here. Just because they have prolific post counts doesn't make them special. You need to stop worrying about who posts in your threads, Jon, but about what they post. You should also stop starting threads where you whine about your place in the community, it just makes me more disinclined to read any of the threads you start.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote: I just find it ridiculous that so many people feel such awe and reverence for Tom Davidson, Bob Scopatz, rivka, Dagonee, and whoever else has been mentioned in this thread.
maybe because you haven't met them. Well, I haven't met Dagonee. He probably sucks.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Jonathon, I was an insufferably arrogant twit till I was older than you, when I finally grew out of it. And I wasn't aware of my arrogance problem till much later. So don't worry Jonny, you're trying to improve yourself, and you will.
Everybody likes attention--it's human nature. Just don't let it become an overwhelming craving. Balance your need for attention with other emotions.
quote: I seem to almost kill the "Begging The Question" thread... There, anything is allowed (almost).
You have nothing to worry about there. That thread is pure fluff, and it's been around for 3 years--it's unkillable. Just because there's a pause after you respond doesn't mean anything. Just nobody could find a funny response at the moment.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeesh. In real life, people just tell me I talk too much. My post count is simply a reflection of that -- not something to be awed about (well, maybe in a doesn't-she-have-a-LIFE? sense).
And mothertree, I'm pretty sure that I start more threads than mack does. She's just started more than usual recently, and I fewer than usual. Not that it matters -- I was just surprised by your statement. *shrug*
*sigh* I haven't been replying to this thread because I didn't feel I had anything helpful to add. I agree with most of what dkw, Tom, kq, CT, quid, and others have said.
But I don't feel I can let this statement by Raia go unchallenged.
quote: Jonny, there's no need to apologize. You haven't done anything wrong.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. The scatological and otherwise crude posts are out of line (and quite unnecessary, since you clearly know appropriate euphemisms). And the slams at religion, particularly Orthodox Judaism, are a violation of the user agreement. You don't believe? Fine -- that is your right and privilege. And actual discussions of your reason for not believing (which you have had, at least once) are interesting and completely reasonable.
It's the little digs, some of which won't be picked up by many Hatrackers, but which are far too blatant not to be deliberate, that I object to. They're not cute, and they're not funny.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I have to agree that you seem desparate for attention, Jonathan. In addition, you take too much pride in knowledge. You are a highly intelligent person with a wealth of knowledge about things most people your age--or any age--don't know or care the first thing about. And that's great. I was the same way at your age. A lot of Hatrackers probably were.
But sometimes it seems, to me at least--I can't speak for anyone else, so maybe I'm the only one that thinks this--that you tend to show off your knowledge for no other reason than to assure us that you do have it. As though you felt that if you didn't remind us every day of how smart you are, we'd forget and start thinking of you as stupid.
But that's not going to happen. We know you know a lot of things. You don't have to show off for us. And if the conversation could actually benefit from your pointing out something that we may not be aware of, then by all means, bring it up. But don't feel that you have to make a big show about how you know this or that obscure thing just so we can sit and bask in how smart you are. Because we're not going to.
Trust me on this. I was the same way at fifteen, and it pissed people off to no end.
My advice? Just relax. Quit showing off.
And no more starting threads just to correct someone's grammatical error. That's tacky. Even if--no, especially if, the grammatical structure in question is an archaic one that has no place in contemporary English. It might annoy you to see someone use the wrong verb conjugation with "thou". I understand that perfectly. It annoys me as well. But that doesn't mean it's appropriate to point out their error. And it's really inappropriate to make an entire thread just to do so.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: And the slams at religion, particularly Orthodox Judaism
Now, wait a minute. I didn't go as far as slamming Orthodox Judaism, especially not that branch in particular! I'm an Orthodox Jew myself!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I know. And you repeatedly -- I can link to specific posts if you insist -- point out how old-fashioned and archaic it is, and that you don't actually (*gasp*) believe in it.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: you [meaning JH]tend to show off your knowledge for no other reason than to assure us that you do have it.
Verily While I'm considerably more humble than I was when I was a teenager, I still catch myself doing this sometimes. Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I probably still do it myself. If someone was really bored enough to comb through all my posts and examine their contexts, they could probably find cases where I mentioned some obscure fact that didn't benefit the conversation. It's a difficult habit to break. But there's a difference between doing it every now and again, and doing it all the time.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
The fact that I believe in Modern/Liberal Orthodoxy and sometimes find it unusual that there are all sorts of weird Halachic remains in Orthodoxy that are occasionally inconsistent does not mean I preach against it.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: I'm sorry, but I disagree. The scatological and otherwise crude posts are out of line (and quite unnecessary, since you clearly know appropriate euphemisms). And the slams at religion, particularly Orthodox Judaism, are a violation of the user agreement. You don't believe? Fine -- that is your right and privilege. And actual discussions of your reason for not believing (which you have had, at least once) are interesting and completely reasonable.
It's the little digs, some of which won't be picked up by many Hatrackers, but which are far too blatant not to be deliberate, that I object to. They're not cute, and they're not funny.
I was referring more specifically to his second apology post, rather than the first. I think he's right in posting this thread, and I think that he's done a good job of apologizing for this type of offense. Now that he's done so, and tried to seek advice on how to improve so this doesn't happen anymore, I think we no longer need to harp on that point.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Hmm, I think I finally figured out what your "Freudian" joke was. If it's what I think it was (banter with kq in the Rebbetzin thread?), you need to learn the difference between "Freudian" and just plain vulgar.
I believe you about being unusually bright. But hopefully what you like about Hatrack is that there are there are many unusually bright people here.
We had a discussion last year about being Jewish and Atheist, Paul Goldner described himself that way. I know several atheist Jews. There is leeway for having a culture and heritage apart from belief. However, I think there is something in the description "Orthodox" that doesn't quite allow for disguising committed atheism. I mean, I think Orthodox Jews pray, and if you don't believe in g-d, is that not taking the name in vain? P.S.
quote: all sorts of weird Halachic remains in Orthodoxy
I don't know what Halachic means, but this sounds disrespectful. Forgive me if I'm wrong about you being an atheist, though I'm not sure what the atheists would see to forgive
[ May 08, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
It would not be right for me to complain about "all sorts of weird freudianism in the born gay culture". I think that would be interpretted as a slam by most forum members, whether gay, straight or in between.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Halachic means having to do with Jewish Law (halacha).
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Yes, Orthodox Jews pray. I conduct the services myself. But does that necessarily mean I have to love or believe in God the way I was taught when weened?
quote: I don't know what Halachic means, but this sounds disrespectful
Halachic (or Halakhic, or whatever) means to do with the Jewish Halacha, or law. What I meant to say is that certain remains of ancient laws and little bits of the past are still being performed without anyone questioning the need for possibly corecting them. The general stream of Orthodoxy prays the same way they did hundreds of years ago - which is fine. But when no acknowledgment is implemented in the main stream regarding possible refreshing of the law - and I'm not talking about a way that starts thrashing the fundamental base of judaism - I believe it is wong.
Again, it's just my belief.
JH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You are wrong when you say no one questions why certain things are still done. I can suggest some blogs, if you like.
However, the fact remains that we lack a means to change established halacha until such time as a real Sanhedrin is established.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
They are questioned, but not in 'regular' Orthodoxy - other types of Orthodoxy do question...
And the Sanhedrin will not be established in Jerusalem the way politics are hanging about now...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*amused* Plenty of "regular" Orthodoxy questions them.
I doubt a legitimate Sanhedrin can be implemented before Moshiach comes.
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
It's only the beginning of the second page about Joanathan's confession and we've got a religious debate already.
*rubs hands together* *takes the popcorn out of the microwave* *waits nervously to see where this will lead to*
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Let's not get deeper into religion - as you know it's never going to end. I 'believe' in religion psychologically, not theologically. And I don't want to make this a Jewish debate thread.
In any case:
quote: Why do you try to kill this thread?
See? People say I'm killing the BtQ thread!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: Jonathon, I was an insufferably arrogant twit till I was older than you, when I finally grew out of it.
Wait-- you grew out of it?
quote: Hmm, I think I finally figured out what your "Freudian" joke was. If it's what I think it was (banter with kq in the Rebbetzin thread?), you need to learn the difference between "Freudian" and just plain vulgar.
Is that what he was talking about? It was vulgar, but it's not why I "left". Actually, I just had nothing to contribute at the moment, so while I kept reading, I didn't post. That's all.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: you need to learn the difference between "Freudian" and just plain vulgar.
I thought Freud was just plain vulgar.
Posted by Father Time (Member # 7985) on :
Jonathan, in asking your question, you have begun to write your own answer.
The fact that you want to improve, and the fact that you have some remorse for the way you came across shows something very important in your development--maturity!
You are starting to think of how your actions affect others, rather than just care about how you feel.
You are making correct decisions. Your thread was one of them.
Take what you have already learned along with the counsel provided and continue your journey.
You are a masterpiece in the making.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
15 more registrations to member #8000. I think I'll start a thread
quote: I thought Freud was just plain vulgar.
See, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
Posted by DarkRiku (Member # 7979) on :
i am also sarcastic, arrogant, and rude. i have no qualms about makeing people feel stupid if they really are. i dont see the problem with that.
Posted by DarkRiku (Member # 7979) on :
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"i dont see the problem with that."
I bet you're really popular.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*bites tongue*
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
*Helps rivka bite tongue.*
Whom are you biting it for?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yeah, the images going through my head now. Ick!
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by DarkRiku: i am also sarcastic, arrogant, and rude. i have no qualms about makeing people feel stupid if they really are. i dont see the problem with that.
I see arrogance with little evidence of competence so often it's "makeing" me giggle.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
No wonder you called yourself: "quid scribbis?"
I meant it in the metaphorical way. For God's sake! Don't Jebuside202 yourself!
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
"Yeah, the images going through my head now. Ick!"
Why are you dragging Icarus into this sordid affair? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: *Helps rivka bite tongue.*
Ewwww! I can do it myself, thanks! *shudder*
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
Hehe
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Sorry about teasing you in BtQ, Jon. "Wasting" threads just fit well. I'll stop now.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
But... Why?
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
You guys are all nuts.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Jonathan, what I do is reread my posts and edit out any offensive parts that add nothing to the post. If someone is offended by my opinion, screw 'em, but if someone is offended by the way I express it, I try to reword it. (Yes, this may sound strange coming from me. Trust me, I could be much worse. Nor am I anywhere close to perfect at it, but I do try.) Also, do your best to ignore any personal insults directed toward you, with the exception of correcting factual errors. Err on the side of ignoring ambiguous insults. (For example, in my case I may disagree with being called an addict, but I would not waste my time arguing. Being called a child molestor would be grounds for argument.)
Figure out the character traits you and others admire about CT, TomDavidson, rivka, etc. Emulate those traits with becoming a shadow of any of them. None of them are perfect, either. Make a list of any negative traits you see in them (or anyone else, here or IRL), and look within your own personality to see which are reflected within you, and take steps to rectify them. Genuine requests for aid are fine, but do not post just to say you have improved this aspect of you personality. And as you give, so you receive. If you can offer advice or even support for others, they will be more inclined to reciprocate.
Post about significant events in your life, and respond to others with genuine concern when they do the same. And realize that not everyone can reply to every post. I respond with posts of support far more rarely than I read threads asking for it - not because I have any higher regard for the ones I do respond to, but because there are just too many to keep track of, much less think of a non-canned response.
quote:i have no qualms about makeing people feel stupid if they really are. i dont see the problem with that.
Correcting errors is one thing, but intentionally denigrating others for no good reason is neither admirable nor a wise use of time. And to be slightly hypocritical, "I" is always capitalized, as are the first letters of sentences. 'Making' has no "e" and "don't" has an apostrophe. In an attempt at mind-reading, I eagerly anticipate your excuse that this is but a message board where your thoughts are too urgent for subjection to basic proofreading.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I'm the nutsiest, Raia.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
After me, sure, JH. Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
If you guys are nuts, I'm the squirrel. Beware!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: No wonder you called yourself: "quid scribbis?"
I meant it in the metaphorical way. For God's sake! Don't Jebuside202 yourself!
JH, I've got to say, considering this is a thread where you are asking for help in how you come across to others, this is a really weird post.
You come across, to me, as being defensive and insulting, and yelling and swearing at quids, for what seemed to me a natural (and funny) reaction to your earlier post. I'm sure you meant it to be a joke, but I think this is the kind of joke that doesn't come across well in this format. This is the kind of thing I would recommend re-reading before posting, and seeing if it's going to come across the way you want it to without the help of facial and vocal cues.
</my 2 cents>
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Whereas I just didn't understand it. Still don't. But perhaps that's just years and years of training myself to ignore and deliberately not understand certain types of swears/jokes/phrases. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*comes in late*
On the subject of over-eagerness and trying too hard:
Reminds me of my 5-yr-old son's behavior the past couple of days. I laughed at something funny his lil' sis said. It was clever, original, and spontaneous. So, then he tried desperately to be funny for at least an hour afterward, often asking afterwards, "Was that funny, Mom?". He just wanted so badly to elicit the same response from me. He's been doing it this morning too.
I finally told him that trying to be funny is usually not funny. Thankfully, he has stopped. For now.
This is the puppy-eagerness trait. It comes with being young and inexperienced. You'll grow out of it eventually. How quickly you do is up to you. Posted by DarkRiku (Member # 7979) on :
I was an idiot to say that and i know it.It was sorta like what that person said about their son I was just looking for attention.It was just not the right kind of attention. It won't happen again.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
It's been enough of what's been said about my metaphorical response to rivka's metaphorical expression "bites tongue". The last thing I need is more of that redundant literalisation that has already been stated before.
You were acting like jebus202 when I oded Raia.
Seriously!
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
See, if you're going to get all nasty and be rude to people when they make a harmless little joke, I think there's a lot more you need to re-evaluate than just whether or not you might seem a little arrogant. The way I see it, you made a comment that unintentionally sounded funny, which quid then used to make a little humor. Then you got pissy and compared her to a troll. Now is one of those times you should step back, take a good look at your own posts, and ask yourself, "Was it necessary to say that, or am I just being a whiny little brat?" You say you desparately want to change, but from where I sit, you're still hitting that reply button before your brain's had time to think.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
And then when someone calls you on it, you try to dismiss them by saying there's enough said.
I keep telling myself I'm not going to come back into this thread, 'cause you obviously don't mean it when you say you care about how you come across and want people's opinions. Not that I really expect you to, I think the whole 15-year-old-center-of-the-universe thing has been pretty well explained, and you have no real option except to grow out of it. Good luck with that.
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I haven't been around in awhile, and it sounds like she has her finger on the pulse of the thing.]![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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). It just sounds like he's trying to get ya'll to say "Oh we like you fine." "Your not that bad" "Not EVERYONE feels that way" It seems that his intention was for the sympathy factor, and not because he actually wants to change. THats what i can gather from reading his post
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