I don't know if it is because Tom Cruise has a new film coming out, but Scientology seems to have been in the pop media quite a bit lately.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Not quite as much as Catholicism, but more than Jainism. I'd say Judaism still has it by a nose coming into the End Times, though.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I was going for the Trifecta--Catholicism, Calvinism, and Jedi.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
I'm not sure why, but it is troubling to see Catholicism in the same cluster as Jedi. I suppose it would have been worse had it been Sith!
LOL
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
I wonder if the guy they murdered was "A Clear". If so, he should have seen it coming.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
<snicker>
Posted by Darth Ender (Member # 7694) on :
The Jedi are no more. Only the Sith
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
"...there is another." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Jenna Elfman is a Scientologist. I will never forgive her for being in Dharma and Greg and for this stupid remark she made one time >.<
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Thanks for being so concise, Syn.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
It is in the news right now because Tom Cruise blasted Brooke Shields for taking anti-depressants. He said she could cure her debilitating post partum depression with herbs.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I just came from Hollywood this weekend. Hadn't been to it in years! I noticed three separate and very large churches of Scientology. Guess it's real big down there. After that, we all were on a church spotting mission to see how many churches of all faiths we could see.
We left Hollywood for San Diego (took the kids to Sea World) and saw an awesome church of LDS off the I-5 that looked like a freaking fortress! It was pretty cool.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Funny he mentioned herbs given part of scientology's tenets is that one doesn't need any medicine whatsoever, because mental issues aren't caused by hormones, but alien spirits.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exploding Monkey: I just came from Hollywood this weekend. Hadn't been to it in years! I noticed three separate and very large churches of Scientology. Guess it's real big down there. After that, we all were on a church spotting mission to see how many churches of all faiths we could see.
We left Hollywood for San Diego (took the kids to Sea World) and saw an awesome church of LDS off the I-5 that looked like a freaking fortress! It was pretty cool.
You should see their [Scientology] movie studio out near San Jacinto/Hemet. It is called Golden Era Productions and looks like a paramilitary base!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
That would be the San Diego Temple , Exploding Monkey.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Johnsonweed,
LMAO! It really looks like a base?
My wife and I don’t practice religion, but her honey (John Travolta) is an avid Scientologist I belive, so it comes up from time to time when she brings him up. I was really blown away how much a part of Hollywood it has become. It’s been 20+ years since I took the drive down there. Hollywood looks much the same as it always has aside from it’s new found religion.
Scott R,
Yep, that's the one! That photo doesn't do it justice though. I really like the architecture in that building. Reminds me of an old castle mixed with a little bit of sci-fi. I told everyone in the car as we drove by, “Take cover! The archers are preparing to fire on us!” LOL
I didn’t know Mormons call their churches “temples.” Interesting. Are you sure that’s a Mormon temple and not a Jedi one? Heh, heh, heh. As we picked out churches over the course of the weekend my wife’s aunt asked me how I knew they were LDS churches and I said, “Because of the bugle boy on the top.” What does that statue symbolize anyway? I noticed it on a temple in Portland, Oregon as well.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Are you sure that’s a Mormon temple and not a Jedi one?
Quite. Mormons are encouraged to marry, Jedi are not.
Here's some more official stuff from the Mormon church on temples .
quote:What does that statue symbolize anyway? I noticed it on a temple in Portland, Oregon as well.
The statue is of Moroni, the angel that instructed Joseph Smith where to find the golden plates. He is represented as blowing a trumpet to usher in the final dispensation of the gospel of Jesus Christ on the earth.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
And. . . um. . . I don't like the architecture at all. When I first saw it, I thought, "Wow. Space Castle."
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
It's what's on the inside that counts *(and I'm not talking about the candle sticks either).
I've been inside churches that were just buildings and an empty church building is a pretty sad place.
I've been inside garages where a church was meeting and felt the spirit there (right next to the air compressor even!)
Growing up Catholic, I got over the ediface complex rather early. I like visiting churches as an exercise in architecture and art-appreciation. But I could care less about it from a religion perspective.
I'm sure there's a good philosophical argument for large and ornate churches. At the very least, a church needs to be big enough to hold the people. But beyond that? who cares?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:But beyond that? who cares?
There are certain religious requirements for a Mormon temple's construction. (Three levels above ground, one beneath the ground, for example. I think.)
Beyond that-- I enjoy, in a spiritual sense, the beauty of our temples. It reminds me, in a physical, tangible way, of what I'm striving for. The temple is a symbol of my hopes, and a reminder of my commitments to God.
It is more important, I think, that the attitude Bob addresses be carried within our regular meetinghouses. But I sacrifice time and funds to help make a physical representation of God's love for humanity apparent in the construction of more temples.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Are Mormon temples physically beautiful? Some of them look slightly cathedralish, but none of them have really sent my spirit soaring; I've seen a few that look like concrete fortresses. Are they prettier on the inside?
Of course, I'm biased; I'm a former Baha'i, and Baha'is do really, really pretty temples (not cathedrals.)
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
>>Are Mormon temples physically beautiful?
Yes. Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: And. . . um. . . I don't like the architecture at all. When I first saw it, I thought, "Wow. Space Castle."
And that's exactly why I liked it! To me, most churches have too many shared architectural themes with other churches to make them really stand out. Sure, some of them can be quite beautiful, but they still suffer from 'sameness.'
The San Diego temple is situated in such a way that it dominates the skyline where it sits. You can't help but notice it as you travel the interstate, and it's the bold and unusual architecture that catches the eye and leaves an impression. If it had been any other church from any other religion, it may have been beautiful, but it probably would not have left a lasting impression. Not on me anyway.
Okay Scott, a few questions if you don’t mind:
1. Why are some temples and some churches? 2. Is there a central theme to Mormon design other than the three levels up, one level down philosophy? I noticed the Portland temple/church had very similar look and was painted white as well.
Posted by S.M.I.L.E. (Member # 8152) on :
I agree I checked out the temples at LDS.org, and also the Houses of Worship at Baha'i.org. Some very nice structures in both. There is a nice variety to the designs in both faith's buildings. I have never seen a Baha'i House of Worship in person though. I have been to a couple of the LDS temples however. Feeling the spirit that is there would make the temple beautiful to me no mater how fancy it looks. In deed some are simple in their beauty.
I'd imagine it may be similar for people of other faiths. They see beauty in their buildings partly because they are beautiful and partly because of what they represent.
As far as Scientology goes, is it the same as Christian Science? or is there any relationship? Yes I haven't got a clue.
Posted by S.M.I.L.E. (Member # 8152) on :
Thanks. Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by adam613: (it isn't even a religion)
I have to disagree.
"Religion" is simply the act of repeating the customs and rituals of one's faith. No deity need be a part of that faith to make it any more or less valid than any other faith.
My wife and I have come to believe that the various faiths are nothing more than different conduits for holding a relationship with the divine. Each can be easily disproved by those that do not share that faith's values as being man-made rather than the one true religion of God. At the same time, those that share in a certain faith's values see it as the ONLY way of communing with our creator.
What it boils down to IMHO is this: We all communicate with God in our own way. I often imagine the divine as looking upon us and kind of chuckling at how hard we try to impress him with all of our various faiths and attempts to get close to him. He's not mocking us when he laughs, but rather laughing at us the way a parent laughs when their child trys to do something to impress. The parent can’t help but be amused by the act, but it also ends up being endearing to their heart.
That’s just our take on things.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Christian Science and Scientology are different religions, started by different people, which happen to have similar names.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There are certain religious requirements for a Mormon temple's construction. (Three levels above ground, one beneath the ground, for example. I think.)
This is incorrect. Take, for example, the Hong Kong temple, which is several stories of a larger building.
I don't think there are any architectural requirements beyond using high-quality materials and craftsmanship.
quote:Are they prettier on the inside?
Absolutely.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:1. Why are some temples and some churches? 2. Is there a central theme to Mormon design other than the three levels up, one level down philosophy? I noticed the Portland temple/church had very similar look and was painted white as well.
1) Check out the link to Boyd K. Packer.
Temples are for certain special ordinances (eternal marriage, for example); churches are for weekly meetings.
2) Most temples are made of white stone, and have the angel Moroni capping one of the spires. Some temples reflect the architecture of the culture where they are built; the Seoul temple does this a bit, as do some of the temples in the south Pacific.
There may be some markings on each of the temple that are consistent-- stars, moons, suns, things of that nature. I think that the earlier the temple was built, and the closer to Utah it is, the more you'll see this type of decoration.
Each has written above the entrance the words 'Holiness to the Lord;' and 'The House of the Lord.'
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I pass by two Baha'i churches on my way to work every day.
quote:Each has written above the entrance the words 'Holiness to the Lord;' and 'The House of the Lord.'
Except...is it Manti? There is a temple in Utah that doesn't have it, but I can't remember which one.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: >> There are certain religious requirements for a Mormon temple's construction. (Three levels above ground, one beneath the ground, for example. I think.) << This is incorrect. Take, for example, the Hong Kong temple, which is several stories of a larger building.
I'll defer to you, Porter-- but I believe that even the Hong Kong temple has a bit underground, then the mission offices, then the rooms above the mission office.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I pass by two Baha'i churches on my way to work every day.
No, you don't. Unless they've changed a lot since I left the church, the Baha'i Faith maintains only one real temple per country (and only has around five or six, total) -- the American one is in the northern suburbs of Chicago -- and generally rents out meeting centers for those occasions when its members need to get together (since there are no real observances). Perhaps you pass offices or conference rooms?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Also, take the Vernal Temple as an example. When they converted the old Vernal tabernacle into a temple, they were going to dig a big basement like they do for most temples.
They weren't able to do this because the water table was too high. They ended up building an add-on to the building instead. The whole thing is above-ground because it has to be.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Except...is it Manti? There is a temple in Utah that doesn't have it, but I can't remember which one.
Are you positive? I'd bet money that they all do.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
All right, all right.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Dallas Bahà'í Center (214) 352-0318 4235 West Northwest Hwy. Dallas, TX 75220
Lewisville Baha'i Center 190 W. Main St, Suite 103 Lewisville, TX 75067 Phone: 972-221-5831
MPH: I can't name the temple, but I absolutely know that a friend and I spent an afternoon circling a temple and noticing (1) no "Holiness to the Lord" and (2) no Moroni.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* That's got to be a meeting center, Katie. I'd imagine that there's a large enough community there that they've got charity and/or advocacy work to do and need a place to do it. A Baha'i temple is actually something quite different -- especially since Baha'is don't actually observe services of any kind.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There have been many temples with no Moroni. Heck, the Provo temple didn't have one until recently.
If there really is one without those words, I'd guess Manti. It has had some pretty major structural changes on the outside. There was a time when a road went *through* an arch in the Temple. I guess it's possible that when things were changed around, those words were lost.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Tom,
Why did you leave that faith? (if it's okay to ask of course)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I looked at the temples on Bahai.org here. They are lovely.
In Baha'i, House of Worship = temple = church? I think I was using center = church, but that's not right?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm not sure the concept of a "church" would make sense to members of the Faith. They don't have clergies or regular ceremonies, and basically just celebrate monthly anniversaries and holidays. Few if any of the normal functions of a "church" are performed at all.
-------
EM: I left because of profound disillusionment with the Faith's leadership, coupled with a general skepticism about God.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Okay, that makes sense.
Whatever their appellation, I do think of TomD every time I notice the sign.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Right on Tom. Thanks for sharing, I was just curious.
What lead you to be skeptical about God? I myself was borderline atheist for several years because of how disillusioned I was after leaving the Pentecostal denomination of the Christian faith.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
adam613,
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to what Scientology is about, but I have been told they push their members for donationas quite a bit.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
For you LDS folks, why can't a person visit inside the temple in Salt Lake? Ivisited there once and got to see most of Mormon Square (I think that's what its called), but there were places only Mormons could go, or so I was told. The big statue of Christ was really something.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
I can't remember who said it, but someone remarked about the Church of Scientology:
"When you make it to the top of their program, you write them a big check and they take you out to the desert and show you the space ship."
I try to be respectful of other people's religions, but Scientology just makes me shudder. Didn't L. Ron Hubbard admit that he invented the religion on a bet with some other writers that he could start a religion?
And wasn't he later excommunicated from the religion he started himself only later to be brought back into the fold?
And wasn't the church caught purchasing thousands and thousands of copies of Dianetics each month just to keep it on the best sellers list?
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote:For you LDS folks, why can't a person visit inside the temple in Salt Lake? I visited there once and got to see most of Mormon Square (I think that's what its called), but there were places only Mormons could go, or so I was told. The big statue of Christ was really something.
It's Temple Square, but I like "Mormon Square" a lot. Reminds me of when Larry King spoke locally and proposed that we dub our leader 'King of the Mormons.'
Anyway, sacred covenants are made in the temple; it's considered the closest we can get to God's presence on earth. It's holy ground, kind of like when Moses was commanded to remove his sandals before the burning bush. Thus, temples are supposed to be entered with reverence and willingness to participate in the ordinances that are the reason for their construction. This is gauged by means of a interview with Mormons who want to attend the temple. They're asked first about the status of their faith and secondly if they have committed any sins that should be resolved before they enter the house of God. Answers are entirely up to the interviewee; thus, it's possible to lie, but one would hope that awareness of the solemnity of what's at stake would deter that.
This causes problems sometimes, particularly when weddings (among those ordinances) are held in temples, and some family members cannot enter. I was among that group last summer when my sister was married; I couldn't honestly bear testimony of the leadership of the church, and didn't even bother trying to gain access. A few weeks ago my parents asked me if I resented it, and I don't, really; I don't think the rules should be changed as long as the temple is professed to be what it is.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I just thought it was hilarious that Tom Cruise was preaching against marriage counseling when he has 2 divorces and 1 failed engagement under his belt.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Ah, the aliens are gonna kill him in a few weeks anyway. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
So (I suppose I could look this up myself) what are the basic principles of Scientology? No one has mentioned those, just passing references to aliens etc. And Tom Cruise of course.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I looked through their website...It wasn't very specific. Mostly, they state that humans are spiritual beings. That's the completely watered down version of it. Their core beliefs probably aren't as crack-pot as most bet-induced religions, but their practices are about as off the wall wierd as they come.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
wow. Thanks for the link. It's still all so vague. It seems to be a very introspective religion. ('introspective' instead of 'self-centered' because the latter sounds inflammatory and I don't mean it that way at all.)
I'm still trying to wrap my head around what exactly they do besides talk out their problems and sins with an 'auditor.' Are there rituals? Gatherings? What other action is taken by someone who 'practices' scientology?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*feels invisible* Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
As far as I know, buying stuff that was written by L. Ron Hubbard seems to be important to Scientologists (No idea why, though )
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Mmm. Now I have to read rivka's link to see if it answers any of my questions.
(I posted that before I saw that you feel invisible!! I'm definitely going to read it.) Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: *feels invisible*
Too much reading. Boris is lazy tonight.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Although the whole book is fascinating reading. It took me a week or two, a few pages at a time. But it was absolutely riveting.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
*long and drawn out wow*
I'm just going to take a guess that none of the people who become Scientologists have read much Science Fiction before becoming such, cause what that summation says about the Thetans and, whatever, is almost sci-fi cliche (the etherial beings idea). I'm no fan of Battlefield Earth (The movie at least. Granted, who is?), but L. Ron Hubbard is wierd (Two completely unrelated statements...But they make sense ).
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
My brain hurts now.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Hey, Tom-- the Baha'i buildings are magnificent.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattB:
quote:For you LDS folks, why can't a person visit inside the temple in Salt Lake? I visited there once and got to see most of Mormon Square (I think that's what its called), but there were places only Mormons could go, or so I was told. The big statue of Christ was really something.
It's Temple Square, but I like "Mormon Square" a lot. Reminds me of when Larry King spoke locally and proposed that we dub our leader 'King of the Mormons.'
Anyway, sacred covenants are made in the temple; it's considered the closest we can get to God's presence on earth. It's holy ground, kind of like when Moses was commanded to remove his sandals before the burning bush. Thus, temples are supposed to be entered with reverence and willingness to participate in the ordinances that are the reason for their construction. This is gauged by means of a interview with Mormons who want to attend the temple. They're asked first about the status of their faith and secondly if they have committed any sins that should be resolved before they enter the house of God. Answers are entirely up to the interviewee; thus, it's possible to lie, but one would hope that awareness of the solemnity of what's at stake would deter that.
This causes problems sometimes, particularly when weddings (among those ordinances) are held in temples, and some family members cannot enter. I was among that group last summer when my sister was married; I couldn't honestly bear testimony of the leadership of the church, and didn't even bother trying to gain access. A few weeks ago my parents asked me if I resented it, and I don't, really; I don't think the rules should be changed as long as the temple is professed to be what it is.
Thanks, Matt. That makes sense to me. I can understand the desire to keep the Temple sacred. I get frutrated when I visit a particular mission, church, or basilica and there are folks taking souvenir photos inside. I like to light a candle for my Grandmother and say a silent prayer, and tourists can be very distracting.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
When I went to St. Peters (I belive that's the one) in New York, we entered a roped off area in the back where we could look at the church and take pictures. The thing was though, MASS WAS IN SESSION! Here all we toursits were, snapping pictures and pointing things out, and people were engaged in worship. I told my wife, "This is disrespectful, we don't belong in here when mass is in session." She agreed and we walked out.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's the church's fault for making the place so pretty that tourists want to drop by, really. Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
The same thing happened (Tourists barging in and snapping photographs during mass) when I went to the Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City. I was super-uncomfortable, but I was also a Jr. High student and didn't really know what to do about it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I never noticed any tourists inside the various duomos I visited in Milan. . . Now, OUTSIDE was a different story, especially on the roof.
If you ever visit Milan, take the stairs to the roof-- it's got some fabulous art-chitecture up there.
Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
E. Monkey, it's St. Patrick's Cathedral in NY
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I am uncomfortable reading and hearing such derogitory remarks about Scientology masked as "explanations" of the faith. As unbiased as possible, and I know there are people here who can be close to that, where can I get information about the religion from those who are believers? What are the "sacred books" and "sources of doctrines" that they use? If no one can be objective about that, then at least tell me where I can make up my own mind.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Please don't. There is no need whatsoever for you to waste even a moment of your time "researching" the "truth" -- if any -- in Scientology. Trust me.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Heh, in a situation similar to though more extreme than your own, Occasional, all but the most basic teachings of Scientology (which are just some modest slightly offbeat psychology, really) are considered sacred by the church. What's more, they use copyright to attempt to prevent anyone from spreading them around.
If you hold with keeping sacred what others want kept sacred, though, you won't read what you're looking for.
If you're willing to violate that sacrity, of course, there's lots out there (many of the teachings of scientology have been read into court records, for instance, which are then reproduced in a manner protected from copyright lawsuits).
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fishtail: E. Monkey, it's St. Patrick's Cathedral in NY
Bingo. Thank you Fishtail. Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Please don't. There is no need whatsoever for you to waste even a moment of your time "researching" the "truth" -- if any -- in Scientology. Trust me.
That's the impression I'm getting so far in researching it. That's why I said my brain hurts. Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:Heh, in a situation similar to though more extreme than your own, Occasional, all but the most basic teachings of Scientology (which are just some modest slightly offbeat psychology, really) are considered sacred by the church.
Sacred? Or dangerous/useless if they haven't 'progressed' to the point where the knowledge would be useful to them, even if they spent the required $19,000 to receive the knowledge?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Both, Dave. Scientologists have been quite clear that they consider those teachings secrets of their religion which should only be shown to prepared believers. I don't know what other definition of sacred you prefer to operate under.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And last I heard, hearing all the secrets required much more than $19,000, at least theoretically (the church would, of course, loan you the money at extremely high interest rates), more like an order of magnitude and a good deal of change more.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I am uncomfortable reading and hearing such derogitory remarks about Scientology masked as "explanations" of the faith. As unbiased as possible, and I know there are people here who can be close to that, where can I get information about the religion from those who are believers? What are the "sacred books" and "sources of doctrines" that they use? If no one can be objective about that, then at least tell me where I can make up my own mind.
Occasional,
I think it all begins with the book Dianetics. This was explained to me as the gateway book for their religion/belief system. I've not read it, but I am curious about what's inside. However, after tring to read Battlefield Earth I couldn't get myself to read another word written by Hubbard.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Quick summation: all bad thoughts are remembered traumas from our past lives as enslaved, ultimately blown-up super-advanced aliens. You can track down and root out your bad thoughts by having someone ask you leading questions about your biases and traumas with a lie detector after putting you into a suggestible state; if all these bad thoughts are rooted out, you will become a perfect, flawless person.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
If we were super-advanced, then why were we enslaved?
I distinctly remeber being one of the leaders of the rebellion. We attacked this big sphere that was gonna blow up our base. Thank god for that new guy! Who would'ah thought the rookie could have saved the day?!
The more I read about this "religion" the less I can take it seriously. I can't believe anyone would subscribe to it.
They were just talking about it with Cruise’s new girl on one of the entertainment news shows. She says she likes it because it makes her a better person. Good luck to her then.
I for one say set phasers on kill.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:And last I heard, hearing all the secrets required much more than $19,000
That's not all that much for somebody to donate/pay to their religion. Tithing (10%), which many people in other religions give, can easily be more than that over a few years.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
In my experience with the Christian faith, very few people dropped the 10% in the plate they were supposed to. If they had, we could'ah blinged out our whole church!
Could have put spinners on the bus, Pastors could have got gold capped teeth, Choir could have all had gold chains.
I went to a large Christian church with a lot of wealthy people.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Most people might not pay a full tithe, but the practice is not unheard of or uncommon.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Yes, but aside from Scientology, have you ever heard of a religion that requires money for you to ascend to higher levels, or get saved, or have your sins taken away, of get a slot in heaven?
When someone tells me I have to pay for my spirituality, that's when I walk away.
"There's a sucker born every minute." -P.T. Barnum
And I repeat:
"The God I belive in isn't short of cash, mister." -Bono of U2
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:side from Scientology, have you ever heard of a religion that requires money for you to ascend to higher levels
While I would never put it that way, that could be said of my faith, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saits, or Mormons).
We believe that certain saving ordinances, including the sealing (temple marriage), can only be received in one of the temples of our church. In order to enter the temple, you have to be a member in good standing. Part of being in good standing is paying a full tithe.
So if you don't give tithing, you are not allowed full participation in the rites and ceremonies (we call them ordinances) of our religion.
Of course, tithing is nothing new. It's as old as the Old Testament.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I’m being a little cynical at the moment.
I feel what you are saying is different though. A Mormon does not have to tithe to be a member of the church do they?
If not, then what you are saying is that LDS’ that do tithe are allowed special privileges under the church’s doctrine. That’s not the same a telling someone they have to pay to be a member.
People who have to pay for a relationship with God (or the aliens, or whatever) are being taken for a ride.
I'll be right back. I have a lot of pancakes and grilled-cheese-sandwitches with religious figures on them that I need to post on eBay. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
We believe that tithing is a commandment, and not an optional one. When I was a missionary, the policy was to not baptize anybody into our church unless they were willing to pay tithing.
But then, nobody forces or coerces anybody to pay. There are many members of our church who do not pay a full tithe.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
See, to me it feels like Scientology is doing just that. They are forcing people to pay.
I understand the importance of paying for the church's operational costs, but how much cash does any faith need? Enough to pay the bills and have some occasional special functions/missions/events IMHO.
I guess I'm just highly skeptical of anyone that asks me for cash for something, especially for my relationship with the divine.
I feel Scientology is exploiting it's members for it's own benefits.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I can understand your skepticism. I think it makes a big difference what the money is used for.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I agree. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Tom: except that, even when you've become a "clear" getting rid of all the bad aliens, you then need to get rid of all the bad memories of your good aliens.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
So, does Scientology have a missionary program? Considering what has been said so far it would seem advantageous for them to recruit new members.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh yes, they have an extensive missionary program, mainly utilizing recent converts as proselytizers near their centers.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
"SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!"
"SHOW ME THE UFO!!!!!!!!!"
(sorry had a lil Jerry McGuire moment there)
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
"SHOW ME THE MONKEY"
Originally posted by Occasional:
quote:I am uncomfortable reading and hearing such derogitory remarks about Scientology masked as "explanations" of the faith. As unbiased as possible, and I know there are people here who can be close to that, where can I get information about the religion from those who are believers? What are the "sacred books" and "sources of doctrines" that they use? If no one can be objective about that, then at least tell me where I can make up my own mind.
The Wikipedia Article link that was provided before has sites at the bottom of the article where you can find links to pro-Scientology sites, as well as critical and neutral sites.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
We Catholics are guilty of the pay for privilages doctrine as well. Lee Iacoca was able to get an anullment of his marriage (by the Pope if I remember correctly) after a substantial donation to the church.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by JonnyNotSoBravo: "SHOW ME THE MONKEY"
You wanna piece of me?!! Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I think there's a vast difference between tithing and the money the Scientologists require to achieve spiritual salvation.
To my understanding, the money from tithing is used to support the church and its programs and for charitable purposes. I remember reading an article about an LDS Bishop (I think it was a Bishop - sorry if it wasn't) who would use a certain amount of his funding to help members of his congregation (ward?) in very specific ways - he bought a used car for one woman so that she could get to work, he provided the deposit money so that a family could move to a better neighborhood, and things like that. I remember thinking that it was a great way to help people.
Also, in almost every Christian church and Jewish synagogue, you have to pay membership dues. Temples and churches don't build and maintain themselves and clergypeople have to eat. However, I've never been to a shul that required people to join in order to attend services and I imagine it's the same in churches. I've also never heard of a shul that wouldn't work something out if a family couldn't afford the membership dues (b/c contrary to popular belief, not all Jews are rich) and I imagine that's the same for churches, too.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
The LDS church (as an added, possibly irrelevant comment) doesn't have paid clergy. Our clergy have their own regular jobs, whether that be school teacher, business person, fireman, doctor, or janitor, and they fulfill their callings of bishop, branch president, or whatever in their spare time. In other words, it's a church of volunteers. Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
johnsonweed, the Kennedy annulment was also a shameful moment for American Catholics. I was *so* angry when I heard about that.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fishtail: johnsonweed, the Kennedy annulment was also a shameful moment for American Catholics. I was *so* angry when I heard about that.
I suppose that old habits are hard to break in the C-church.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
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