I'm sure most people who pay attention to pop culture have heard someone say something to the effect of "You are the whitest boy I've ever seen" as a way of commenting negatively on someone's dance or basketball skills. As best I can tell from my limited perusal of VH1 and MTV, it's a fairly common thing to do, and no one seems to get offended by it.
Now, imagine if the person such a remark was aimed at responded by saying, "Why thank you."
What would the reaction be? What should the reaction be?
Dagonee
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't know. I think the remark is inappropriate to begin with; some of the world's best basketball players are white, some are black, some are Asian. It would be obviously inappropriate to inform a black person that he played basketball like a black man (meaning well). Why is it acceptable to do the reverse?
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Hmm. I think, "Why, thank you" or "Yes. Yes I am." would be a funny and lighthearted response.
I remember being in Ron's dorm room with a bunch of white-bread presbyterians at college. They were looking through his CDs, which included one of Public Enemy.
One guy was reading off the names of the members of the group. "Chuck D" and "Flavor Flav" He pronounced the 'flav' with a hard, short vowel sound instead of a long a sound. Another guy patted him on the back and said, "Spoken like a true Caucasian." He looked puzzled. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Okay, "Caucasian" is a word that is just weird to me. I'm not Caucasian or of Caucasian descent. It's a very outmoded word, and its origins are in a concept of race which I think is better forgotten. Hmmm.
I agree, I guess. "Thank you" would be a good response, and a way to point out that it's not a bad thing. Perhaps the best response to a response of "Thank you" would be to drop it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Maybe it's just me, but I would guess people might get mad at the "thanks." But it's really just a guess.
My brain comes up with weird things to think about sometimes.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Yeah, I'd guess that they'd get mad too. But only if it's said in a condescending way.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I promise you, if *I* said it, it would be funny.
"Caucasian" isn't a word used in scientific circles anymore, but it is still commonly used as a slightly more polite racial designation than, say, Cracka.
But, that's why it was funny to use in that context.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I have not heard it, but it seems as lame to me as calling something lame "gay". It's just... a bit obnoxious.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: it seems as lame to me as calling something lame "gay".
Or calling something lame "lame?" Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Let's not forget "retarded."
I used to refer to myself as a 'spaz' until I realized some people use that as a nasty way to refer to people with CP.
I was horrified. Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
No one I've met gets mad at the thanks.
The only way I've heard that used is toward a black guy that I know who loves science fiction and Star Wars. Therefore he is, "the whitest black guy so-and-so knows."
He doesn't really get offended, but he doesn't want to say thank you afterward.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
quote:Or calling something lame "lame?"
Not to get into a huge disability acceptance debate, but still... Homosexuality may someday have no obviously detrimental effects. Lame people will never be able to win marathons. Should 'lame' be used as a derogatory adjective? This junkie does not know the answer, though he guesses not. Still, there is a difference between denigrating race or sexual orientation and a valid physical defect.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Tater - I can see that. *furrows brow*
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If you say "my car is lame - it takes forever to get up to 60 MPH" then your metaphor is pretty accurate. But if you use it to mean "worthless" as a general statement of value unrelated to physical capability, then it can be perceived as a commentary on the overall worth of someone with a game leg.
So it's something that can certainly be used perfectly innocently and accurately but might be overbroad in its reach in other applications.
I have no idea if it's actually considered offensive, though.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: it seems as lame to me as calling something lame "gay".
Or calling something lame "lame?"
I never thought of that.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
You know at some point if we remove all the derogotories that originated in something that someone could find offensive for some reason or other, we're gonna run out of derogotory terms. Some might say this is good, but personally I think the world would be worse off. I mean there are plenty of good uses for them. Who doesn't like to complain with friends about stuff? And what about having friendly flame wars? Maybe its just a computer geek thing, but when I'm at LAN parties getting into joking flame wars with people is an honored past time. And they would be far worse off were it not for the many derogotory terms that can be used creatively.
Most of those words are only offensive if you let them be offense. Sure maybe 'lame' originated from a disability, but its used for much much more these days. And frankly, when I hear it, 'disabled person' is about the last thing I think of. I just think of 'bad' or 'crappy'.
Sure I imagine there are some people who would use 'lame' in that way to insult the disabled. But make the words taboo for everyone else, and they'll still use em. Or they'll find other words to use it.
My advise to people: don't take offense at the simple use of the word. Just take offense if the offense is aimed at you and intended.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"And frankly, when I hear it, 'disabled person' is about the last thing I think of. I just think of 'bad' or 'crappy'."
That's the problem, Alcon. So what word do you then use to describe someone who is actually lame, if the word "lame" now first brings to mind "bad" or "crappy?"
People make fun of Political Correctness, but part of the reason it exists is that organizations have attempted to come up with another word for, say, "lame" that doesn't come with the original connotations. But, sadly, that never lasts; people just drag the connotations along to the new word.
And as a side note: derogatory terms cannot be used "creatively," unless your standard for creativity is much lower than mine. Creativity, when it comes to LAN-party trash-talk, is knowing how to insult someone without using a derogatory term. *grin*
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Interesting word history:
quote: bad 1203, mystery word, no apparent relatives in other languages. Possibly from two related O.E. derogatory terms: bæddel and bædling "effeminate man, hermaphrodite, pederast." Originally "defective, inferior;" sense of "evil, morally depraved" is first recorded 1300. A rare word before 1400, and evil was more common until 1700. Ironic use as a word of approval is said to be at least since 1890s orally, originally in Black Eng., emerging in print 1928 in a jazz context. Badder, baddest were used as recently as Defoe (18c.), but yielded to comp. worse and superl. worst (taken over from evil, ill), from P.Gmc. *wersizon, comp. of *wers-.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Although "funky," which originally meant that something smelled particularly bad in an "off...dead animal rotting in the sun" kind of way, came to mean "cool and hip" and now, probably, "dated and retro."
Eventually, maybe the term will return to meaning just that something stinks.
If someone tells you that you are the whitest person they know, just say "nuh-uh, you are! Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
I do not find it offensive when someone uses the word "gay" to mean something is objectionable. i.e. 'Sheryl said WHAT? That's so gay.'
I also do not think it is incorrect to use the word lame in the same context. 'Brad went WHERE? That's so lame.'
The meanings of words change according to the usage of the populace. Adapt. Pick your battles. Besides, 'It was so gay' is a lot easier to say than 'It was so objectionable.'
I don't use the term myself, but I hear it all the time. It is firmly entrenched in the popular lexicon.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I lived in the suburbs iof Detroit while growing up, and while it WAS subrubia, I heard that a lot. Not always directed towards me, but a lot of the time it was.
I always said "Thank you!" as brightly as possible to them, and most of them would eaither get confused and leave me alone, or they would sya "That isn't a compliment, you know."
I would then reply "Maybe that isn't how you meant it, but it was despite that.".
Most of them gave up at that point, shaking their head and we would both laugh at it.
BTW, that was 15 years ago, so it isn't THAT new of a phrase. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I do not find it offensive when someone uses the word "gay" to mean something is objectionable. i.e. 'Sheryl said WHAT? That's so gay.'
I also do not think it is incorrect to use the word lame in the same context. 'Brad went WHERE? That's so lame.'
I bet I can guess whether you're homosexual or physically disabled. Posted by Grisha (Member # 6871) on :
I've actually been told i'm really white, or something to that affect with refrance to basketball or music. I think at least once i said thanks, because i am very faired skinned, and like shows about vampires, so i took it as a compliment. Though usually i just wonder, when was there a queastion if i was white or not? Why does it matter? And what is wrong with being white? Posted by Grisha (Member # 6871) on :
quote:Originally posted by TL: I do not find it offensive when someone uses the word "gay" to mean something is objectionable. i.e. 'Sheryl said WHAT? That's so gay.'
I've heard many classes, tests, things said, etc. referred to as gay in tha context, and usually just agree. Then say that while I am sure who ever I am with is right that the test is physically attracted to other tests of the same gender, it is sertainly the test's choice to make.
It gets some weird looks from people the first time they hear it, and often "that's not what i meant" or "you know what i meant".
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:That's the problem, Alcon. So what word do you then use to describe someone who is actually lame, if the word "lame" now first brings to mind "bad" or "crappy?"
Disabled person.
Was this not obvious?
Lame doesn't bring to mind lame in the sense of someone who has a gimp leg at all.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Then say that while I am sure who ever I am with is right that the test is physically attracted to other tests of the same gender, it is sertainly the test's choice to make.
Of course, originally gay just meant "bright and cheerful."
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I had never really heard lame used as a disabled person, but as a horse with a swollen leg. I had heard it used by teenagers, but I ignore my peers so I didn't really pay attention. I still think of a horse.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
It seems to me that whether a word is offensive often comes from the route the word took to the way it is used.
"Lame"(in it's current context) came from "a lame excuse," meaning a weak excuse, or an excuse that is unable to support itself. This was later shortened to just "lame." And of course, this took on the new meaning of a general sort of negativity.
"Gay" on the other hand, pretty clearly means "something a gay person would do (or like)," so it's intended to be demeaning to gay people.
As to the original question:
I run across people who use the phrase "That's mighty white of you." Originally it was clearly insulting to black people because it implied white superiority.
Nowadays I hear it being used in the same way as Dag's example, to imply uncoolness, lack of rhythm, or lack of sports prowess.
But beyond that I even hear it turned around fully; someone that says "mighty white of you" is actually calling someone a bigot.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:"Lame"(in it's current context) came from "a lame excuse," meaning a weak excuse, or an excuse that is unable to support itself. This was later shortened to just "lame." And of course, this took on the new meaning of a general sort of negativity.
"Gay" on the other hand, pretty clearly means "something a gay person would do (or like)," so it's intended to be demeaning to gay people.
This is a good way to look at the issue.
quote:I run across people who use the phrase "That's mighty white of you." Originally it was clearly insulting to black people because it implied white superiority.
This, of course, is the usage that I thought might be implied by the "thank you." It is an incredibly insulting usage, because it suggests that the recipient of the "compliment" has somehow transcended the limitations imposed on him by his race.
quote:Nowadays I hear it being used in the same way as Dag's example, to imply uncoolness, lack of rhythm, or lack of sports prowess.
But beyond that I even hear it turned around fully; someone that says "mighty white of you" is actually calling someone a bigot.
I haven't heard the bigot usage, but it seems to be a natural trend.
Leaving aside the racial history for a moment (which you can't do and expect to understand the situation fully), the usage implying lack of dance, sports, or coolness should be exactly as acceptable as someone saying "you're so black" to comment on lack of any other ability (say, swimming or math to invoke two stereotypes).
Of course, you can't ignore the racial history attached to this issue. I'm not very comfortable with the "whitest boy ever" type comments, but I can be pretty sure the person saying them doesn't want to ship me back to Ireland. The same can't be said when the remarks go the other way around.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I was thinking about this last night, I'm more likely to say "that's so male" than gay or lame, in almost any situation.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
See, now that offends me to no end. I can't believe you would be so insensitive, breyerchic04! Typical female!
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