I just reserved my copy of the next book online, and a recommended book popped up, What's a Christian to do with Harry Potter? I remember hearing about there being a big stink (as mentioned in the first chapter of the book) in many Christian sects about the books promoting devil-worship and witchcraft (like the Jack Chick Track "The Nervous Witch." )
What I'm wondering is: do people really honest to god believe that these books are bad, or know anyone that does? Why do you/they feel that way?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
My mother is convinced, having not even read the books that they are evil. Perhaps it's because of the references to witches and wizards. Anything with witches and wizards is considered evil to some people, I once got yelled at by my father for reading a kid's book called, "The Witch's Cat." This is one of the many reasons why I don't live with my parents. If they could get past the witch/wizard thing they'd realize how good the books are morally.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
My ex-husband's sister-in-law and her family are very much anti-Harry and anti-Halloween. We were at their house a few years back for their son's birthday party, and my older daughter brought one of the HP books to keep her occupied. I had to sit through several HOURS of gang-up berating by these people. Poor Heather was nearly in tears over it. And no, I didn't have the option of leaving the party, we had no car at the time and rode with his parents, who weren't about to leave or hand over the keys.
I have NEVER gone back to any multi-family event with that group of people since that incident.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
My girls and I read the books and watch the movies. We're LDS.
It's fantasy, just like a lot of other books - I don't see any evil in them.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I know people who do, and to be honest I even understand it.
I just don't agree with it. Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
My father, my friends, all the really old people at my church, and a LOT of people I know are convinced the books are evil and moreover "bad for children."
I think they're okay. (the books, not the above mentioned people. )
A girl I know had a book one time that taught 10-18 year old how to cast spells.
I would much rather children be learning about witches and things from Harry Potter, which puts a fun spin on things, than from a book like that. I mean there were "Romance Spells," "Money Spells," "Revenge Spells."
I was creeped out. Posted by Starla* (Member # 5835) on :
quote: I know people who do, and to be honest I even understand it.
Then, why? Why do they think this way?
quote: A girl I know had a book one time that taught 10-18 year old how to cast spells.
I would much rather children be learning about witches and things from Harry Potter, which puts a fun spin on things, than from a book like that. I mean there were "Romance Spells," "Money Spells," "Revenge Spells."
I love Harry Potter, but it isn't about the witchcraft in that girl's book; it's fantasy. THe spells in that book were probably real ones (though they don't work in the same way Harry Potter's do). I would say romance and revenge spells, especially are not healthy for anyone, especially not children. Money spells are specific, and only give you the amount of money you need at that time.
There's a lot more to this than you think.
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
Harry Potter is just cute harmless fantasy. I don't agree with Syn that the books are all that moral, but I don't find that a problem.
I hated the Phillip Pullman Dark Materials trilogy for some of the concepts and, yes, the behavior and morals of the characters, but I don't consider it an evil series either.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I have talked at length with several of my christian friends about this topic. Those of us who are christians who read Harry Potter are generally better read individuals. We tend to read for pleasure far more than those that denounce HP has the devil's tools for turning our children from God. Or some other such nonsense.
A lot of the scripture that's quoted about HP has to do with not letting yourself hear evil things or you will do evil things or say evil things. They also point out that witchcraft is specifically noted as evil in the bible.
What they seem to always miss is the fact that it is fantasy and a work of fiction. I can never quite seem to pull them out of that frame of reference, even as a fellow christian. They believe Harry Potter to be evil, they will find anything and everything to support that argument. Despite reason. It's effing annoying.
Probably the only argument that holds any weight is the popularization of witchcraft. While I, personally, don't think that there's a whole new generation of witches and wizards that are going to grow out of this (just like there aren't thousands of wizards crawling around no matter how much D&D they played in Mom's basement). I can see where this might upset concerned parents. Especially parents that watch waaaay too much Maury Povich.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
What does this Christian do with Harry Potter? Why, read it of course!
Also, I'm in favor of book burnings. It boosts sales.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
My sister, baptist or equivalent thereof, thinks the books are evil and won't allow her daughter, 14, to read them or watch the movies. But then, my atheist brother gave her the books for her birthday or Christmas or something, and what could they do about her favorite uncle? *snicker*
I'm LDS, and I have no problem with them. They're entertaining fiction. You know, fiction, that stuff that's all made up and not real. Yeah, fiction. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I look forward to having Christians bash my novellette, Blackberry Witch.
Tell your Christian friends:
1) It gives specific instructions on how to usurp another's free agency through the use of magic.
2) It shows, quite clearly, one of the methods wizards use to raise the dead.
3) It demonstrates how one can go about creating a familiar to assist them.
4) The main character is an athiest.
Obviously, Blackberry Witch is a menace to the ordered, Christian world. And I'm Mormon! Tell 'em that, and they'll be frothing at the mouth!
It comes out on August 19th, in the Writers of the Future 2005 anthology.
And I advocate eating babies!
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
One of my friends, (a CHristian) received several of the books as gifts and, after much discussion with fellow christians and much thought and prayer, burned them! I thought that was pretty extreme, but I guess she felt if they weren't appropriate for her kids it wasn't right to give them away to others. Most of my Christian friends don't like them, for the reasons Primal Curve mentioned... they have a biblical basis for their concerns.
My kids and I like the books and will continue reading them. But I don't consider them a must-read, I respect my friends feelings on this, and we just don't discuss HP when we are with those particular friends.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:What do Christians do with Harry Potter?
We read the books.
We watch the movies.
I mean, come'on! Fiction is fiction. It's just fiction!
I have a hard time with anything being labeled as "bad" unless it is bad information trying to be passed off as truth. But Fiction? How is Harry Potter any different (as far as being make believe) than any other fiction piece out there? You start pointing out this book, then that book, and pretty soon you would have to ban everything by that standard. Bambi doesn't really have human emotion and talk. Thomas the Tank Engine - train engines don't really have feelings. Harry Potter is make believe.
As a Christian, I don't have any problem with it at all. In fact, I really enjoy Harry Potter just because it IS a struggle of good vs. evil (like so many books) and of Harry trying to grow up and decide which path to follow.
Farmgirl
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Are these Christians categorically calling for all such books to remain unread?
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
As a Christian I love the HP books. I can’t wait for the next one.
I do have a few friends who don't want their kids to read them, but aren't ready to start burning them.
I asked them what was different from HP and something like LOTR, which most Christians support. They said it was because HP is set in the present day real world not some fantasy land. So their kids are more apt to think it's real. (I don't think that holds up)
I don't know anyone who opposes the books who has actually read them.
I wish these people would find a worth while cause to put their energy into, like helping the poor or one of the many other things Christ asked us to do.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It is pretty straight forward....their religion frowns on it, for reasons that make a lot of sense within the tenants of that religion.
Fantasy or not, those books could cause confusion within the belief system they are teaching their children.
Starla*, I assume you are Wiccian? I don't believe that magic works like in Harry Potter, nor am I Wiccian, but if you are then your question is disingenious at best. You know why they don't approve, even if it isn't all psudo-latin and wand waving.
I don't agree with my friends on this, but I do understand why they don't want to expose their children to something that they don't approve of, even in a fantasy novel.
Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Kwea
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Not that I'm advocating this book at all, but if you read about, this is actually a book that does advocate reading the Harry Potter books with your family, and then trying to extrapolate Moral and Christian themes from them to use to teach children. It's not one of those straightup "Boycot and burn because OMG they're EVIL11!!11!!" books.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Last year or the year before (can't remember) I had one of the HP books with me at the pool when I happened to be there with my kids and the neighbor I like so well(and her kids). She saw me reading it, and I mentioned that it was a birthday present for me.
She asked if we read them to the kids, and I said no, they were still too young to sit through longer stores (must've been at least two years ago).
Anyway, she's a Baptist and I was expecting at least some friendly caution, or something. She's never been obnoxious about trying to convert me, which is why we're still friendly (though I know her husband disapproves of us as a family).
She said she'd heard on a radio program that Harry Potter had killed his parents, and was that true?
O_O Ah, no.
She just smiled and said, "I didn't think so. I didn't think you'd be reading it if he did."
We talked a bit about HP, and though I believe the books won't be allowed in her home, she was really cool about it. So cool, in fact, that I felt almost no urge to be snarky. Which is rare for me.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:She just smiled and said, "I didn't think so. I didn't think you'd be reading it if he did."
You know, that's a fantastic compliment, O. She seems like a pretty cool lady.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
It is so frustrating that they use the blanket term, Christians. It is a very small group of fundamentalists who have problems with this sort of thing. My sister belongs to a small group called Church of Christ which is a fundamentalist group similar to the International Churches of Christ, (not to be confused with the moderate and liberal United Church of Christ). The elders of her church have labled Harry Potter as an evil book and prohibit church memebrs from reading/seeing it. She abides by the rule, yet allowed her kids to watch LOTR and Star Wars. I don't get it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
>>They said it was because HP is set in the present day real world not some fantasy land.<<
I think this would be my point of contention-- that HP isn't set in the present day world; and that it is set in a fantasy land.
No matter where you look, you will never find Hogwarts. There is no Diagon Alley.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
And because of how long it takes her to get each book out, technically the story was all wrapped up a couple of years back -- late nineties, IIRC. which means that it's not present day!! Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I personally tell my son HP bed-time stories.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:No matter where you look, you will never find Hogwarts. There is no Diagon Alley.
What?! Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:What do Christians do with Harry Potter?
Being a diverse group of folk, they disagree and argue about it just about as much as they disagree and argue about pretty much everything.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
ScottR - I agree. She is a really, really neat lady. It's funny how she and I have opposite spiritual histories. She was prettymuch religionless at first, and had a hard life because of her choices, then converted and is now a devout Baptist. I started out as a devout Baptist and made good (or lucky) choices, have had a life without major regrets and am now prettymuch religionless.
It IS sad that our differences have kept our families at arm's length, though. Their kids liked Ron and me so much that they have to be careful how much time they spend with because our beliefs or TV viewing habits may contradict their teachings. I think they were afraid of them looking up to us, so they told them we aren't Christians and now they give us tracts and try to witness to us all the time. Big, sad, inncoent eyes, terrified that we're going to hell. *sigh*
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Well, you COULD become Mormon.
Then you could eat the little angels.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Not to mention the chicken sacrifices.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Naw, I can't eat babies or kill chickens without my morning coffee.
P.S. I love you guys! *wipes tear*
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I think the Harry Potter books are harmless fun. In my opinion if your child isn't old enough to diferentiate between fiction and reality than its up to you to decide. But the books get kids to read and are really just a fun story.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Honest to God, people really do. I got in a big argument with one of the ladies in our bible study a few years ago about it. I'm very pro-Harry Potter, she (who had never read them) very against. Ultimately, we had to agree to disagree, but I still think it's stupid to argue a series of books as bad when you haven't taken the time to read at least one of them.
I was sadly also confronted with this stupid prejudice again a week or so ago, when my son (who goes to a private Christian school) told me in response to my suggestion that he take the last HP book to school for his reading time, that his teacher didn't like HP because it was "fighting evil with evil". I'm going to get her a copy of Finding God in Harry Potter (an excellent book for explaining how fundamentally rooted in Christian values the HP series actually is) and see if she still thinks that after she's had a chance to read a little more fully informed.
Posted by Starla* (Member # 5835) on :
quote: Starla*, I assume you are Wiccian? I don't believe that magic works like in Harry Potter, nor am I Wiccian, but if you are then your question is disingenious at best. You know why they don't approve, even if it isn't all psudo-latin and wand waving.
No, not wiccan, per se--pagan, yes.
And no, I don't understand why. No, it doesn't work like it does in harry potter, and I'm starting to wonder if it's not just a conciousness thing, but that's beside the point.
I just can't get why some fundamentalists think that this will "convert" people to witchcraft. In fact, believe is the better word, because if they were really thinking, they wouldn't believe them, tey would have researched it first.
No, I don't understand, that's why I asked. Posted by Starla* (Member # 5835) on :
pagan on the road to atheism with a respect for nature, if anyone's wondering about the one comment.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Although I am a Christian, and believe in the Bible (and other scripture), I don't believe that witchcraft exists, or any other actual "magic" for that matter. I know that scripture mentions witchcraft and such, but I can't help feeling that it is not referring to what we think of when we think of "witchcraft".
I think the kind of "witchcraft" referred to in scripture is kind of like "priestcraft". (I'm not sure how much the concept of "priestcraft" is discussed or recognized outside of LDS circles, at least by that name.) In other words, "witchcraft" is evil because it seeks to manipulate other people by convincing them that the "witch" has some kind of power, and by doing so the "witch" obtains power or wealth or other perks. The whole thing is based on lies and greed, and at the same time lures people away from religious truth, and should be shunned for this reason.
In other words, I don't think that "witchcraft" was condemned in scripture because there are or were ever really any "witches" that had any magical power, with Satanic sources or otherwise.
Since I believe all of the above, I really think the objections to Harry Potter are extraordinarily silly.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I went to church with my grandma this weekend, I hadn't been to her church in 9 years. In the Sunday school classroom that a little girl I knew (distantly related) was in, they had Harry Potter posters up, the pastor and his wife both said they were amazing works of fantasy, and can't wait to read them to their daughter (she's not quite one). This made me so much more comfortable with religion, of course, there is no church of that denomination within a half hour of my house.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:No matter where you look, you will never find Hogwarts. There is no Diagon Alley.
What?!
That depends on wheter or not "you" are a muggle. Muggles don't see things they're looking right at.
Of course, Dkw being a cleric means she's a divine spellcaster, while wizards are clearly arcane spellcasters. I'm not sure how that stacks up for one perceiving the other's hidden places. Anyone have a 3.5 DMG handy to check? Flip to the part about it not being fantasy and telling you how to cast real spells, Jack Chick says it's in there somewhere.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
One thing I never understood about the claim that D&D teaches real spells:
Does anyone really think there would still be jocks picking on nerds if any of them knew how to cast a fireball?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
*imagines casting fireball at a group of cheerleaders from high school*
*giggles vindictively*
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:Does anyone really think there would still be jocks picking on nerds if any of them knew how to cast a fireball?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
To anyone who argues against reading Harry Potter because it could lead to evil, or any other such thing, I suggest you ask them to read Mark Twain's Man Who Corrupted Hadleyburg
Lead Us Not Unto Temptation is not always the best choice.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote: Does anyone really think there would still be jocks picking on nerds if any of them knew how to cast a fireball?
*snorts*
I'm a Christian, I played D&D and Magic the Gathering (would still, if I had the time) and I LOOOVE Harry Potter. I think the silliest are the people who let their kids read LotR and not HP. I want my kids looking to Harry, Ron and Hermione as role models ( especially Hermione ).
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:In fact, I really enjoy Harry Potter just because it IS a struggle of good vs. evil (like so many books) and of Harry trying to grow up and decide which path to follow.
This is true. With the stark contrasts between good and evil, I found the Harry Potter books as Christian as star wars. (It took me quite a few years to read the Harry Potter books, and I thought that they were fine.)
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Well, I never mastered Fireball, but I could punch out a mean Magic Missle. Those jocks stopped bothering me after that.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starla*: pagan on the road to atheism with a respect for nature, if anyone's wondering about the one comment.
Do you practice tarot Starla? I've been using it recently to great effect. I have no psychic abilities so it is worthless to me as a tool for seeing the future, but it's an excellent way to reflect on things that are going on in my life. I often see things in a different light or even things that I had not considered. I use it to supplement prayer as I ask God to guide me as I use them.
Why are you moving towards atheism? I am an agnostic who has been trying to re-establish my relationship with God after abandoning organized religion. I was borderline atheist for several years.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Sometimes when people get too worked up about whether the spells in Harry Potter are “real spells used by actual witches ” I tell them that since they all seem to require a wand containing either a hair from a unicorn, a dragon heartstring, or some other component of a mythical beast it should make them feel pretty secure about the low danger level from actual witches ™ . It just seems to confuse them, though. *sigh*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:What do Christians do with Harry Potter?
Beat him up and take his lunch money.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I sort of read tarot...
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
My wife has used it for years. I used to shurg it off until she read me a few times. I find it's a great way to get an introspective on certain aspects of myself.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I think the silliest are the people who let their kids read LotR and not HP.
I don't find this any sillier. LotR takes place in a very purposely "Christian" (pre-Christ Christian, to be specific) world. I can think of several reasons for not wanting kids to read HP that wouldn't apply to LotR. I disagree with those reasons, but they are logically consistent given the premises of the person making them.
Ironically, there's a little anti-Tolkien backlash from some Christians because of all the Catholic influence. It's quite amusing.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
Hello everyone. Im new to the board and wanted to ask a question. I find this topic very interesting becuase I am huge fan of Harry Potter. However, my dad has constantly told me that Harry Potter is evil because it promotes witchcraft (as echoed by some of the people many have mentioned here). Obviously, this implies that witchcraft itself is evil, so here is my question: why is witchcraft evil? What part of witchcraft is evil and therefore should not be taught? I was just wondering. Any thoughts?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Short answer Humean --
all references to 'witchcraft' in the Bible condemn it as an evil to be avoided (Galations 5:20, Nahum 3:4, Micah 5:12, 2 Chron 33:6, 2 King 9:22, and Deut 18:10, for examples). It is considered a form of idolatry.
FG
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
quote: all references to 'witchcraft' in the Bible condemn it as an evil to be avoided (Galations 5:20, Nahum 3:4, Micah 5:12, 2 Chron 33:6, 2 King 9:22, and Deut 18:10, for examples). It is considered a form of idolatry.
Farmgirl, is there any reason given as to its evil? Is there some practice that makes it evil in the Bible? Oh and good to meet you!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The obvious (and by obvious, I mean the one that somebody who hasn't studied this can pull out of his ear) is that what Farmgirl said -- it is considered a form of idolatry.
In the Bible, worshiping anything other than the One True God is counted as evil. So were many things that were associated with the worship of other gods.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
quote: In the Bible, worshiping anything other than the One True God is counted as evil. So were many things that were associated with the worship of other gods.
So, why arent such people as actors, musicians, artists, or politicians and things such as music, movies, and television considered evil? I can imagine that these people and things are worshipped and take away worship from God.
Posted by King's Man (Member # 8147) on :
Actually Humean316, some people consider those things to be evil. I don't really consider them to be evil in and of themselves, but putting those things before God in your life is a sin a.k.a. evil.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: Short answer Humean --
all references to 'witchcraft' in the Bible condemn it as an evil to be avoided (Galations 5:20, Nahum 3:4, Micah 5:12, 2 Chron 33:6, 2 King 9:22, and Deut 18:10, for examples). It is considered a form of idolatry.
FG
Wow, I can never pull out reference like that.
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:I think the silliest are the people who let their kids read LotR and not HP.
I don't find this any sillier. LotR takes place in a very purposely "Christian" (pre-Christ Christian, to be specific) world. I can think of several reasons for not wanting kids to read HP that wouldn't apply to LotR. I disagree with those reasons, but they are logically consistent given the premises of the person making them.
What are those reasons? I can't think of any that would make it consistent that it's okay for Gandalf to be a wizard in LOTR but not for Harry Potter to be one. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
One obvious reason is that in HP, it goes into a great deal of detail about studying magic, increasing magic abilities, etc..
In LotR, the magic is always being done by larger-than-life characters that the viewpoint character can never really understand (Gandal, Elrond, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc.).
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Well, that makes a little more sense, at least.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Technically, Gandalf is an angelic-like being, rather than a human who attained greater than normal power. But then, Harry Potter was born the way he was, so I don't see how either character would inspire children to try witchcraft.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Also, he is not only not human, he is way before Christ, or even before Abraham, even if it is assumed to be any sort of "history" of our world, even an imaginary.
If you can see that some people consider witchcraft against their religion, why can't you understand why they don't want any books, particularly ones directed at children, to condone anything that resembles it. Some of them consider the books to be condoning and praising a practice that goes completely against some of their religions cherished ideals; some are worried about kids becoming "desensitized" to the very idea of it.
I don't happen to agree with any of those views, and I hate it when people make such a stink over these things, but I do understand where they are coming from, and try to avoid insulting them about it.
Usually they manage to be insulted anyway though, if I show them my library.
If Harry Potter is evil, then my library must belong to the Anti-Christ. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:What are those reasons? I can't think of any that would make it consistent that it's okay for Gandalf to be a wizard in LOTR but not for Harry Potter to be one. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
Both MPH and Shigosei touch on the major reasons. Gandalf is an immortal spirit charged by God's appointed ruler on Earth to use magic in the defense of Middle Earth. That's quite a dispensation.
In every reference to humans doing magic (and there's not many) it is clear that something wrong is being done.
Any use of power beyond ones station is fraught with peril in Tolkien's world.
Above all there's no sense that going to school to learn magic is an acceptable thing to do.
As I said, I don't buy the HP attacks, either. But there is a significant difference.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
One thing to understand about the concern about witchcraft: most people that believe it is evil believe it is real, and that its power is an unholy one.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I remember getting into this discussion with a lady at the gym, when I saw an add on one of theTVs for the last HP movie, and said I'd like to see it. Her response was, "You're into that trash?"
Heh. Not a good way to start in with me, lady.
Anyway, HER kids were too old for Harry Potter, but she though LotR was okay, and when I asked why, she said it was because Tolkien was a Christian.
"And Rowling is what? A single mother?"
"You never know what people are really doing in their lives."
O_O
I amused myself by pointing at her with my pen and saying "Crucio!"
I thought that fact that it didn't work sort of proved my point... but some people cannot be convinced that their pastor is wrong. They have to have some absolute to hold on to, and sometimes that absolute is whatever someone they choose to trust tells them to believe.
Funny thing, though - one of her teenaged sons was in jail for a drug offense. O_O
But at least he's not a wizard.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Dag, I disagree...I see a lot of magic, and a lot of the magical, in all of Tolkiens world, not all done by Wixards. Power came in many forms, and all of it fraught with peril, but Aragorn has strength beyond that of a mortal man, and magical items are all over his world, in use by mortals.
Not the same as a wizards school, to be sure, but not an absolute ban on mortals using magic either.
Kwea
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Aragorn doesn't use magic - he has a strain of Elvish that gives him strength and long life. His sword was forged by a dwarf ages ago. The Palantir aren't magic - which is another distinction Toliien makes. The hobbits call things "magic" that the elves just consider normal.
I'm not saying there's not magic everywhere, but no mortal uses it with impunity.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Of course ... it takes such a level of analysis to understand this distinction that 99% of LOTR readers/viewers see no difference whatsoever between Gandalf and your average D&D wizard Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Wow, I can never pull out reference like that.
johnsonweed -- you give me too much credit. I keep my handy BibleGateway.com site up on another tab to look up references....
I think the "evilness" of witchcraft (in a general sense in real life, not in fiction, I'm talking about) is due to the fact that it is a person trying to gain power for himself/herself. Whereas Christians believe any supernatural power should come from God, or as a gift from God, not something a person is seeking to try to acquire as a power on their own. That would be the idolatry tie-in -- in witchcraft that power because their God instead of God being their God. At least that's how I've understood it -- but I really haven't done any kinda of in-depth research on this topic, in a religious sense.
FG
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
There is an old saying, "Magic is what someone does who is not of my faith, Miracles are what someone does who is of my faith."
An example of this is Joan of Arc, the Maiden of Orleans. For the French nationalists (though not all of them) she was inspired by God and blessed with miracles. For the English and Burgundians, she was a Witch who perfomred spells and talked with devils, if she wasn't outright a liar.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
FG, actually, the "evilness" of witchcraft, as I understand it, is that you're asking for power from sources other than God -- power which many people believe exists. "Demons, powers and authorities", y'know. The Bible is pretty clear throughout that there are other spiritual powers than God, but that they are not benevolent and *that's* why we shouldn't worship them. Though your definition certainly holds true too.
It is critical (IMO) to understand that HP isn't engaging in spiritual magic (also called invocational magic, where a spirit is invoked to be commanded to do something), but rather incantational magic, which draws on no spiritual power. In other words, he's just saying some words that since he has the innate gift, actually accomplish something. Sort of like being psychic. It's an innate talent he was born with. He's *not* making a deal with the devil to accomplish his means. This is important because Harry is constantly and consistantly using that incantational magic (an inborn talent, honed with discipline) to acheive good. If we were reading that Harry was invoking a familiar spirit to acheive good, that would glorify witchcraft in a way that would be anti-Biblical, largely because such spirits are believed to actually exist but not with the benevolence such a portrayal would imply.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:HP isn't engaging in spiritual magic
That, and he's fictional
Yes, everything you said I absolutely agree with, jeniwren. And since I don't believe that anyone in reality is born with a "gift" such as Harry's -- that is why reading it as fiction doesn't bother me in the slightest. (That is not saying that I don't believe there is such a real thing as black magic, drawn from powers other than God's.)
FG
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Well, of course, he's fictional. But to the next door neighbor kid, who has always loved witches and wizards since he was 2, HP and Gandalf are his heroes. They are more real to him that President Bush.
Now I'm a sad that *I* don't have such a talent. We're gutting our house to make it easier to show (it went on the market yesterday), and it would be nice to sit on Hatrack and just let my talent take care of the packing.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I've been adamantly opposed to Harry Potter ever since my nephew turned his little sister into a frog. I really don't see how anybody can support this sort of thing.
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea:
If you can see that some people consider witchcraft against their religion, why can't you understand why they don't want any books, particularly ones directed at children, to condone anything that resembles it. Some of them consider the books to be condoning and praising a practice that goes completely against some of their religions cherished ideals; some are worried about kids becoming "desensitized" to the very idea of it.
That's not the part I didn't understand. Like you, I don't agree with that reasoning, but I could understand it. What I didn't get was why one brand of wizardry was good and another was bad, but Dag, Shigosei, and mph explained that as well, so it makes more sense now.
quote:Of course ... it takes such a level of analysis to understand this distinction that 99% of LOTR readers/viewers see no difference whatsoever between Gandalf and your average D&D wizard.
Yep, and that's where my problem was coming from! Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Olivet, did the woman at the gym realize that Tolkien was *gasp* Catholic?!
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
Did is the sort of religious stuff that always pisses me off declaring such and such evil decadent and immoral. Bah I say! I love HP, and LOTR and DragonLance and Forgottem Realms just as much of the next person, but its utterly rediculas! All these books almost ALWAYS have a good vs evil thing blah!
Posted by Starla* (Member # 5835) on :
I do read tarot, but I haven't in a while; I do find that most of my readings do turn out (which is why i haven't read in a while). I find it to be more of a personal supplement than a religious or spritual one, because, esentially, one looks at the images and picks things out that relates to their situation, and the is able to organize it in a way to analyze it.
I'm becoming more atheist because I've started looking at things from a rationalist/scientific point of view.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I'm still learning with the cards. My wife is very good with them.
I can see your point of view when you say you are looking at things from a rational perspective. But let me just say that it is my experience that when you completely shut our your own spirituality you will suffer on a psychological and emotional level. At least, that's what happened to me. It’s my belief that human beings have a connection to things outside of the physical world whether you believe in God of not. Make sure you don't close that door.
Blessings my friend and good luck with your journey. Posted by Starla* (Member # 5835) on :
thank you--but, I don't think I'm quite there, but I am awfully close. There's still a small part of me that's left that has a slight mistrust of that rationality, sometimes. Because sometimes, there is not a rational reason.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
My best friend growing up was Born Again Christian. Her mom was a wee bit insane, I decided one day when I went over to play. She found out that I was Mormon, pointed a finger at me and declared, "You belong to the church of the DEVIL!"
I went to some of their church activities because there was a cute boy there that my friend and I fawned over. I remember them showing a movie about "The Occult". I got a strong sense of very emotional propaganda against anything that might border on occultish. I adored unicorns at that age, and I remember this friend telling me that her mom said unicorns were of the Occult. Which, of course, meant that they were Evil. I just couldn't understand that. Unicorns represented all that was good, holy, sacred, whole, etc. How could they possibly be Evil?
But at the same time, I think I understand why they feel this way, and several people here have already done a beautiful job of describing that.
So when people go crazy about the HP books, I am not surprised. I have seen first hand how frightened some Christians are of anything that smells like witchcraft. Anything "fantasy" at all falls into that category.
I grew up loving fantasy far more than boring "realistic" stuff, and my world would have seemed bleak without it. I guess in the minds of those who hate/ fear HP that meant I was on the pathway to hell.
But I grew up Mormon. I don't know why witchcraft wasn't that big a deal, it just wasn't. Maybe it had to do with the fact that we have living prophets who "trump" anything found in older scripture. We grow up accustomed to the idea that there are certain things that are important to the people of God at certain times. Because our modern-day prophets hardly blinked an eye at witchcraft, the silent message was sent that that just isn't a big deal now like it was years and years ago. We don't know why. We can speculate, but it isn't important.
Granted, growing up *I* was taught that ouiji boards, tarot cards, rock music, hypnosis, D&D, and similar things were Evil. I was taught this by my mother specifically. It is possible that these things were echos of her own Protestant upbringing.
Certainly the church to which I belong doesn't encourage these things, but they aren't focused on either. They are far more concerned about teaching us not to drink alchohol or have pre-marital sex. But while my mom didn't particularly like sci-fi and fantasy herself, she didn't discourage me and my siblings from being so deeply drawn to speculative fiction. She was more concerned with whether things were "uplifting" or "dark".
It seems to me that our Christian communities have a long history of persecuting witches because of what was said in the Bible, and often (I believe) using it as an excuse to kill people who were considered troublemakers. I believe that they were misguided and did terrible harm and damage. I don't believe they were doing God's will at all.
But I do believe it is these echos of that deep, irrational fear against witches that continues with us today and causes people to fear/hate HP.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
And yet so many Mormons like Star Wars. Well, maybe that was just my mom. It was one of the things she would let us watch on Sunday. Also Ripley's believe it or Not, because she thought it was quite often informative.
I was shocked when my husband told me that some of the stuff on Ripley's isn't real. Now I'm not so sure. Is there really a gold bathtub shaped like a quail that you can rent the use of?
My husband also thinks Feng Shui borders on the occult. There are a lot of Feng Shui sites that also talk about casting spells on the internet. It kind of makes me mad as someone with a cultural interest in it that they try to use it that way, generally for a small fee.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:one looks at the images and picks things out that relates to their situation, and the is able to organize it in a way to analyze it.
There's a series of books by John Sandford that features a painter/hacker/industrial spy named Kidd. He uses the tarot this way, calling it a gaming aid. It forces you to look at aspects of the situation you might not be paying attention to.
[ June 05, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:johnsonweed -- you give me too much credit. I keep my handy BibleGateway.com site up on another tab to look up references....
Wow, me too.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Of course ... it takes such a level of analysis to understand this distinction that 99% of LOTR readers/viewers see no difference whatsoever between Gandalf and your average D&D wizard
Bah. Gandalf is NOTHING like the average D&D wizard. He engages in melee combat far too much, and the vast majority of wizards are not proficient with any type of swords. He's maybe a fighter/wizard multiclass.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
lol, bah my psionicist trumps all.
Posted by reader (Member # 3888) on :
Disclaimer: I've read all the Harry Potter books, and think that they're great books. That said, I have heard one argument against reading the Harry Potter books that's very different than most, and even though I don't think it's a strong enough argument to consider the books off-limits, I do think that there is something to it.
So what's the argument?
In the second book, we are introduced to the Mandrakes. Plants that look like babies, like children - and are mashed up as part of various potions.
Of course, in the real world, if plants existed that looked like people, but didn't actually have any minds/souls, then of course the lives of people would take precedence over their "lives" - even if the process involved mashing them up. The argument was that JKR creates, introduces and uses them casually, without even seeming to realize the implication of using a plant that looks like a child as part of a potion. This offense was enough, so the argument went, that the books should be kept away from children.
(The person in question wasn't against any and all violence in books; she was against violence that wasn't portrayed as bad, or at least only the last-ditch option.)
Anyway, I've always thought that argument was interesting, and I've always wanted to ask JKR what on earth she was thinking when she created those Mandrakes. Maybe when they reach the age at which they become ripe, they suddenly stop looking human.... Perhaps JKR has always had that in mind, but it never ended up in the books. I hope so, because I really do enjoy the HP books, and I don't like to think that JKR would create something with such grotesque implications, even if it was through oversight.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I think it all goes back to Simon Magus, The Church just cannot have the miraculous occuring outside the perview of the clergy. Even if a person is doing all the same things Jesus did, that just makes it worse, though I cannot imagine what could be more Christian then that.
Harry Potter is a fantasticly constructed story, for that reason alone it deserves to be read. But the fact that it opens children up to wonderful possibilities makes it a God send. If Madam Pomfrey healing the sick with magic bothers anyone, well that is sad for them.
BC
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by reader:
I've always wanted to ask JKR what on earth she was thinking when she created those Mandrakes.
Keep in mind, that like most of JKR's "creations," mandrakes (and their human-like appearance) are not original to her. One of the wonderful things about her writing is the way she takes long-standing mythology and tweaks it.
There are more things to beware in HP than just witchcraft.
The children constantly disobey authority figures, which is a bad precedent, and they're often right and triumph by doing so, which is an even worse one.
They skip classes, act up, and actively work against their teachers. And they become heroes.
Not a problem for me or my kids, we love the books. But it's a concern for some people, that truants and vandals and kids who talk back are shown to be the good guys.
There have also been several excellent Christian articles on how to use Harry Potter to teach your kids the values displayed: loyalty, responsibility, education, friendship, etc.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
My major moral problem with the books would be the whole underlying structure of wizarding society. They constantly manipulate the memories of muggles with no regard for the propriety of doing so. There is no moral disapproval of this at all - even the best characters seem to take it for granted that this is acceptable behavior.
Again, though, that's a topic for discussion, not a reason to reject the books out of hand.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yup. In those books, only wizards and witches are real people.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
On the subject of children not respecting the authority of those with wisdom, I actually really appreciate the HP books for showing teens and pre-teens just how hard it is to be an adult.
Particularly as the books have progressed, we see Dumbledore walking an increasingly fine line with all the politics and conniving he has to deal with. Where a teenager like Harry Potter (or any other teen character in the book) would jump in and start whining and thus get him/herself in trouble, Dumbledore choses his words and actions *very* carefully. Where an idealistic teen leaps in with guns blazing, getting themselves into trouble, Dumbledore often withholds the frustration he must feel in favor of being subtle, yet effective. He has to deal with the sort of politics and nonesense that adults have to put up with every day in "the real world". He is deft and admirably wise in doing so, and sets an excellent example (I think) for the kids reading the book.
It's not just Dumbledore, but the other "good" teachers on the staff. I really treasure this about these books, particularly considering the audience.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
*nods at bev* I like how the books illustrate that snap judgements about people are often wrong and that prejudice can blind. Snape is a really good example.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
***spolier***
lol, ya I remember when I was reading HP for the first time I'm like "Snape is the one! He's the evil person!" Then I find out its mister quirel and I'm stunned.
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Yup. In those books, only wizards and witches are real people.
True, but in the later books it becomes clear that the way the witches and wizards do things is not necessarily the best, either. In Book 5, especially, she makes a point of showing how wizard-centric their world has become, and how that can be a bad thing. Mostly at this point that's in relation to the other magical sentient species, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the future books that starts to extend to their attitudes about muggles as well.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I remember when I was reading HP for the first time I'm like "Snape is the one! He's the evil person!" Then I find out its mister quirel and I'm stunned.
If it had been Snape, I would never have read another HP book again.
Posted by reader (Member # 3888) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by reader:
I've always wanted to ask JKR what on earth she was thinking when she created those Mandrakes.
Keep in mind, that like most of JKR's "creations," mandrakes (and their human-like appearance) are not original to her. One of the wonderful things about her writing is the way she takes long-standing mythology and tweaks it.
Yes, I do know that JKR didn't come up with mandrakes; I suppose "created" was the wrong word to use. What I meant by that was "creating" Mandrakes that didn't just vaguely resemble humans, but actually look very, very much like babies, actually cry, and so forth. What JKR did with the mandrakes was very clever, yes - but the concept is still grotesque. I imagine that this factor never occured to her, but I still really wish it hadn't been included - or at least that some mention had been made of the roots losing their human resemblance once fully mature and ready for use.
Posted by Obi-Zahn Kenobi (Member # 8036) on :
The thing is about Harry Potter is that the powers that the people have don't come from the devil. That is why the Bible condemns withcraft - it comes from the devil.
However, in Harry Potter, the witchcraft and such are merely treated like the knacks in Alvin Maker. There are good people who use them and bad people who use them, and the power doesn't come from an evil source.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
reader, I'm so glad I'm not the only person who had a problem with that. It bothered me too.
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