This is topic Personal Crisis Advice For Me? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
I've seen similar threads, so maybe I can gain some much-needed objectivity with the help of fellow hatrackers. Part of it is if I write this out it might also help me to think straight.

Long story. Stick with me. Bit complicated. Big mess.

I got a friend of mine a job at my company when he was out of work (in something akin to retail management, though not exactly). This was roughly a year ago. Things went great for about 10 months, until I came to understand that his constant jokes about wanting to have sex with employees were not, in fact, jokes at all. I guess two major events occured in our friendship at about the same time. One, I found out that the whole time he has worked for my company he has been engaged in a campaign to ruin my reputation and subvert my authority by badmouthing me behind my back to anyone who would listen (the whole time I considered him to be my best friend). A couple of people who were concerned about this came to me and laid it all out. I was shocked. Two, I found out he was cheating on his wife with one of the staff (and probably had done it once before without me knowing). This all makes him sound monstrous but I'm not trying to paint him as inhuman. I'm just leaving out the good stuff for the sake of brevity. His wife, by the way, is pregnant, and mainly sees the good stuff I just mentioned. And not the bad stuff I mentioned before that.

Eventually the girl with whom he had cheated (when she ended it, he used his authority to treat her like crap and generally tried to make life miserable for her at work) decided to inform the company of what he was up to. She had been promoted to our level and she and I became friends just as my friendship with this guy -- let's give him the completely imaginary name "Jay" -- was ending.

We both agreed that something should be done. At first our conversations were centered around the notion of getting him transferred to another building within the same company. However I had learned that he was going after another employee ("Betty") pretty hard, hoping to take advantage of her in the same way he took advantage of my new friend. Let's call her "Dot." I knew this because he told me so, not yet realizing that I knew what I knew. He told me in graphic detail (and trust me it was awful) what he planned to do to Betty.

(Side note: this blueberry muffin is delicious.)

Dot and I decided that the company needed to know what he was up to. She, having cheated with him, obviously knew much more than I. But I supported the information she gave to the company with my own experiences with Jay, which believe me painted an accurate picture of his offenses.

We were informed that an investigation would be undertaken.

Okay, let's pause here to run through the cast of characters real quick.

TL: Me.
Jay: Sexual creep and bad friend.
Dot: Woman scorned.
Betty: 17 year-old employee Jay is trying to "get".

So part of this investigation involved asking Jay to explain or respond to certain information I gave the company. Of course, he realized that I was the only person who could have told them certain things. He then concluded (correctly) that I turned him in. What he did not know however is that I was not alone, and in fact they got much more damning information from someone else.

Well, Jay immediately proceeded to badmouth me again to the folks at work, trying to establish that this is just "what I do." That anytime I'm involved in a friendship that ends I try to get some kind of cheap revenge upon the former friend. He concocted a fantasy in which I told everyone that some past friend ("Alex") was a molester of little boys.

Never happened.

I heard about a lot of stuff he said, in fact, all designed to paint the picture that I was fabricating lies and he is the virgin Mary. But I never refuted these things because I knew I was in the right and I do *not* tell the people under my supervision things that they have absolutely no need to know.

One day I left work and found my tire slashed in the parking lot. (You can guess where this is going). Reliable sources (people he thinks are "his" people) came to me in private and told me that a couple of days earlier he had threatened to slash my tire. After it happened he was telling them "it's going to happen again." (Note: He never said, "I did it," afterwards.) But we know he did. It's not proveable in court, but come on. He did it.

I now park in a nearby parking lot which is monitored by security cameras 24 hours a day.

Well, when the friendship between us ended I had a couple of things of his. Namely a "Band of Brothers" dvd set and a Richard Laymon novel. I was planning to give this crap back to him but when I found out he slashed my tire, I was like, No. That's bull. That cost me 75 bucks to get that replaced. He has to be crazy to think he can get away with something like that. So I in my angry mindset decided simply not to return his stuff, and that would be his payment for destroying my tire.

Geez, this is quite the soap opera. And I'm leaving out so much. Wow.

So I have been torn, part of me thinking: return his stuff just to be the better person, and part of me thinking: screw this guy.

This "investigation" has been going on for almost six weeks now. During that time, unrelated to me and Dot, a few other people have come forward with complaints against him. (Example: He lines up three girls and tells them he needs to check their tags. He then pulls open the backs of their shirts and takes weirdly too long, one of them saying he pulled back the T-shirt she was wearing under her uniform and stared at her bare back). Our boss, for four weeks in a row, has made fake manager schedules, expecting corporate to fire him.

But every week, nothing happens.

We are given the mandate to keep him away from certain people (such as Betty) no matter what. This takes a lot of time and energy but it is worth it. The boss has asked me to run his department behind his back.

So for the past four weeks, I have been running my department, and his as well. This has led to some awkward moments.

Jay: How come TL is training new staff in my department?
Boss: Uh, that's probably just some weird oversight.
Jay: If that's what you want, fine. Fine. I just thought I was in charge of ____ that's all. (door slam).

And the thing is, Jay wants to feud with me at work. He really goes out of his way to try to mess things up for me. He talks his trash. He slashed my tire, for crying out loud. And I keep waiting for him to realize how crazy he is for wanting to feud with me. I keep waiting for him to realize that he has so much more to lose than I do. In the ashes of a war between us, he will be standing there without a wife, his expected child, his job, or a home. I will be standing there with exactly what I have now -- which isn't much. I keep waiting for him to realize it without me having to say, "Don't forget what I know about you, and the things that I could tell your wife."

Because she would leave him if she knew about his cheating and his lies. Oh yes, she would. And he knows it. It just hasn't occured to him that I would tell her.

So tonight we had our manager meeting, and then when Jay left the office we had our "real" manager meeting. Boss says corporate is in town and Jay will be fired tomorrow. We have all covered his shifts for the week and are preparing for life without him. So the misery of all of us working together and hating each other can finally end.

But he confronted me tonight, and I'm torn. The conversation follows ....

Jay: Can I get my stuff back this weekend?
TL: (petulant) Doubt it.
Jay: Can I ask why?
TL: (silence. If I tip him that I know about the tire, he will be able to guess the source of that information. And it's important to her that he not know.)
Jay: Can I hazard a guess as to why?
TL: (shrug)
Jay: Is it because you think I damaged your car?
TL: (silence. I just stare at him.)
Jay: Because that's assinine.
TL: I don't know what to tell you.
Jay: Somebody keyed my car. Did you key my car?
TL: (I almost laugh. Of course I didn't key his car -- that's not something I would do. But it pleases me that it happened. Honestly, it could have been any one of a half a dozen people at this point. He has wronged lots of people in his time at my company.)
Jay: You know what, I don't even care if you did. I just want my stuff back.
TL: Of course I didn't key your car.
Jay: You know what, that's my stuff. I purchased it, it belongs to me. And you don't have the right to hold it as some kind of punishment for whatever you think I did to you.
TL: (Thinking, you had the right to slash my tire?)
Jay: You'd better give me my stuff back.
TL: Or what? (You'll slash my tire?)
Jay: Or I'll take additional action!
TL: Additional action? (I actually laugh). What additional action? (What else could you DO to me?)
Jay: I'll sue you.
TL: Are you seriously threatening to sue me?
Jay: Absolutely.
TL: For how much? (I'm actually curious.)
Jay: 175 dollars.
TL: Really.
Jay: Absolutely.
TL: You know, there's a whole conversation that we could have about this.
Jay: I don't want to have a conversation with you. I'm right, and you're wrong. That's my stuff. I need my stuff.
TL: I haven't decided what to do with it yet.
Jay: I've been fair with you. I haven't tried to get revenge on you ....
TL: That's a lie.
Jay: I haven't said ONE WORD about you to the staff.
TL: That's a lie.
Jay: WHAT!??!
TL: I hear things, Jay.
Jay: You're being lied to, TL.
TL: Who should I believe, these people who have never lied to me, or you: who lied to me during the whole course of our relationship.
Jay: That's a lie.
TL: I haven't decided yet what to do with your stuff.
Jay: I want it back.
TL: It's good to want things.
Jay: ***ker!

My old boss (promoted to another building recently), with whom I am friendly, keeps hounding me to tell Jay's wife about the cheating. She has a right to know, he says. She's got to know.

A big part of me wants to tell her. But it's the same part of me that wants to keep Jay's stuff, just to mess with him. And I don't want to be motivated by revenge. I wasn't motivated by revenge when I supported the information which Dot (and now others) provided to corporate. Our friendship didn't end, and then I decided to get involved in all of this maliciously, our friendship ended BECAUSE of all of this.

So I guess my options are:

A) Keep his stuff, get sued.
B) Return his stuff, forget I ever knew him.
C) keep his stuff, tell his wife, get sued, and get into an unbelievable real-life war with the guy.
D) Return his stuff, tell his wife, and get into the unbelievable war. (The telling of his wife is what will trigger the war).

Uh, am I missing any options? Keep in mind the following fact: He is going to be fired tomorrow.

By the way if anyone takes the time to fully read this and consider my problem, THANKS!
 

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Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
 
B) Return his stuff, forget I ever knew him.

(And you're welcome )
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
I choose B). And encourage one of the women who actually slept with him to tell the wife. As hearsay from you it would be gossip. But only mention it once, don't make it a vendetta to make sure someone tells the wife, because one of the women could be lying. Not to say "Jay" isn't scum (No OOC please ) but it doesn't sound like the kind of workplace where folks are bringing out the best in each other.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I agree...if all it takes to get rid of the creep, get him and his bull out of your life for good, is stuff that you don't have any real right to in the first place, then count yourself lucky.


Even if you factor in the $75 for the tire, and you have no proof that it was him one way or another, then it is STILL worth it.


I would not tell his wife, because he has probably prepped her for your "lies", although if someone else wants to, like the girl he was messing around with, wants to don't talk her out of it either.


Good luck either way.


Kwea
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
mothertree, you are correct. In fact, when I suggest "telling his wife" it's more like a "causing his wife to know the truth" type of thing than me actually telling her.

In all honesty, his wife would not believe me.

And for the record, this was an awesome, awesome workplace before all this happened. It's obviously a horrible mess right now.
 

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Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
 
His wife deserves to know. She will most likely find out anyways, one way or another, because this guy sounds like a chronic repeat offender and will eventually out himself. But she deserves to know NOW, before she can be hurt anymore. And, since you know her, and have proof that he has cheated on her, it is your responsibility to tell her. If it were heresay, that would be another story. But you know it for a fact, right? So, you need to tell her.
I would return his stuff, too. It's not worth him having anything he could hold over you. The getting into a war is a choice on your part. You can pretend like you never knew this person and get a restraining order if he gets out of hand. You dont need to actually engage with him ever again. Even after you tell his wife. You wont see him at work, and you dont need to see him outside of work.
I dont know. I cant imagine telling someone their spouse is cheating on them, but I've never been in that situation. I would hope I could do it for their sake, just as I would want someone to do it for me.
Good luck

edit: after reading the above posts, I do agree that it isnt so important that YOU be the person to tell her. What matters is that she knows, not how she finds out.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Thanks kwea: Yes, in fact I would not personally tell his wife anything. I would leave that to the girls, but I can cause it to happen at any time.

I'm sort of the only thing holding them back.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*seconds mothertree*
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
foundling, yes, I know it for a fact. That is good advice.
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
I remember being really mad that I had to pay for a gonorrhea test when I was pregnant. I mean, wouldn't that be about the worst way to find out your husband was cheating on you? Better than not knowing and having a blind baby or whatever it causes that is worth testing everyone. But still, it made me mad.
 

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Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
 
What do THEY think about telling her?
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Don't. If THEY want to tell her, let them. It isn't your place to hold them back, to be honest.


You are lucky (as is your employer) that they don't file suit against the company for allowing this to happen/continue. More the harassment than the cheating, that is really none of their business, but since it involved the work place...
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Kwea, *I* am lucky they don't file suit? As soon as I knew what was going on I did what I thought was the right thing and supported them!

I agree that the company is lucky, though. They have really blown it by not handling this quickly.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Hey thanks for the advice guys. I have come to a conclusion about his stuff ...

I'll box it up and mail it to him tomorrow morning. I really, really don't want it. The only reason for me to keep it would be animus, and I want to remember this as a moment of clarity and rightness in my life, not as a moment of getting cheap revenge. That's not why I did any of this. I did it because I believed it was the right thing and I want to keep the moral highground.

As for the wife, I still don't know. Do we tell her or let her go on as she is?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
The wife should know. The wife should be told by a person he's had an affair with. You shouldn't prevent the other woman from telling the wife.

Ick. What a situation.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
don't forget to get a delivery confirmation on the stuff. It's worth the 55 cents in a case like this.
AJ
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Yeah, send it confirmed mail, so he can't claim you didn't send it to him later.


I had meant you were luck they didn't go after the company, as you work there too. Not you personally.


Kwea
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Wow -- I can't believe your company is letting this go on so long! This guy should have been canned based on some of this stuff right away -- or at least given paid absence so he wouldn't be around to harrass others while the investigation was ongoing.

What ages are all these individuals? His behavior seems so juvenile...

Corporate cultures are different place to place -- but I simply cannot imagine you having to work around this scenario.

I agree with give him his stuff, do whatever is needed to get him fully out of your life. I am so sorry for you that your friend turned out to not be a friend at all!

It is just sad to think he will move on to some other company and start this behavior all over again. To some other poor people.

On my PMS days -- I would say just take him out and shoot him.

FG
 

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Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by quidscribis:
The wife should know. The wife should be told by a person he's had an affair with. You shouldn't prevent the other woman from telling the wife.

Ick. What a situation.

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I agree with this--the wife has a right to know, but you aren't obligated to tell her. Nor should you prevent the girls involved from contacting the wife.If she asks, you could say he was fired for sexual harassment, the truth.

As far as the dvds go, B) Return his stuff, forget I ever knew him-- is the best course. Don't forget that return receipt by mail, since he threatened to sue. Or you could return the stuff in person, with a witness. That might even make him sweat a little, if his wife is there too.

And I'm with Farmgirl--the guy seems like a real immature jerk.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I vote B as well. His wife deserves to know but it's not your responsibility to tell her.

Especially since that would lead to further vendetta against you.

Pix
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
He's my age, 27. Thanks for the help, you guys are all awesome. I wouldn't have thought about return by receipt mail. And it really helps me that the consensus is that the wife has to be told.

I was afraid telling her (or causing her to be told) would have simply been to satisfy my anger.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
B. He's a nutjob. It's worth a great deal more than that to get rid of the manipulative psychotic liars that cross your path. You don't need it. Get rid of all reminders of him, and let it go. Chalk it all up to "Sometimes people are bonkers, but I don't have to play along."

I agree that someone needs to tell his poor wife, but you're not the right person to do it.

Added: Woa - I'm way late. Still, one more voice.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
B with the codicil that Dot or Betty or one of the other women with whom he's been intimate needs to have a discussion with the wife.

And if anything DID actually happen with Betty, someone needs to turn him in for statutory rape too, since you said she's only 17.

And now my head is spinning from trying to keep the soap opera straight, I need tea...
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
As for the mail, send it certified, restricted signature, return receipt requested, not just delivery confirmation. Yes it's more money but the certified and return receipt provide you with absolute proof that it was received and on what date, and the restricted signature means that only HE can sign for it, not his wife. I suspect that if his wife were to receive it, even with the signed green card in your hand, he'd try and claim that it never arrived and that you still owed him his stuff.
 

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Posted by 1lobo1 (Member # 7762) on :
 
You need to return his stuff, you are liable legally for it at this point. (And ethically you are required to return it...two wrongs don't make a right sort of thing...)

As for telling the wife...I am not sure it is your place...but it is a very difficult position to be in.

The company needs to let this guy go yesterday...he is a huge liability and the Company is risking a number of very expensive lawsuits.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I have to agree with this all. But I have to agree, the wife has a right to be told-- but not by you.

Long story short, only she can make the decision that gets her and her child away from this guy. She can only make that decision if she knows the truth. I don't want to generalize, but I can visualize a scenario where she isn't told and, in 16 years, finds out that he is sexually abusing their daughter...
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
She needs to know, but I think there's quite a jump between adultery and incestual pedophilia, even for a creep.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I said I was visualizing a possible scenario down the road. Unfortunately, up to 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused in some way (not just rape or molestation), and much of that is in the home.

All I'm saying is, she needs accurate information from those it happened to about the cheating, the sexual harassment of employees, and anything else that shows his not-so-stellar side. It needs to be her choice.

And personally, if I were her, I would err on the side of caution and get away while I could. It's a hard choice all around, but unless he's willing to go through some therapy, deal with his crap, and change significantly, I don't see him just magically turning into a stellar husband and father.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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She needs to know, but I think there's quite a jump between adultery and incestual pedophilia, even for a creep.

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::nods::

Yeah, that's definitely a bit of a leap.

As for turning him in for statuatory rape, isn't 17 above the age of consent in most states?

I agree with everyone, by the way, that you need to give the stuff back immediately, using the method Goody outlined above. Your hanging onto his stuff is the one place in this whole story where you're clearly, in my eyes, in the wrong. Regardless of what you think he did, it isn't your stuff.

I also agree that his wife has a right to know that he's been cheating on her. What is your relationship with her, by the way? How good of friends (if at all) were you with her before all of this started happening?

How long had you known this guy before getting him the job, out of curiosity?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'd leave immediately, but not because there's a chance he could be a sexual abuser - with statitstics like those you cited, there is a chance ANYONE could become one.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
That's very true, kat, and some of it is in the home, some is out. But there are warning signs, and one is previous sexual harassment, especially of younger women and women a man has power over.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I really didn't mean to turn this discussion into this-- just to say that if I were his wife and found all this stuff out, I would be more likely to leave for my child's sake than mine, my natural inclination being, probably, to try to work it out.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I don't know what I'd do in her situation, honestly. When you're removed from the situation it's easy to make pronouncements about what the right thing to do is (and be right--I really do think that in the long run a person is better off without someone like that in their lives), but when you're actually in the situation it isn't always so clear.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Definitely return it, as suggested. You need to remain completely above board and beyond reproach here.
 

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Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
 
IF his wife would not believe Dot and/or Betty without corroboration, I think you have the responsibility to let her know. IF you see her socially, and IF you drink I would get "drunk" and let it "slip". In vino veritas. If you do not drink and/or see her socially you still have an obligation to back up your coworker's stories.

And not sure what state you are in, but Noemon is right for most states as far as the age of consent goes. Look it up here.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
I knew Jay for slightly less than a year before I got him this job. He did not have an affair with Betty (the 17 year old), only Dot. And Dot is of age. (However just being of age is a long way from it being cool. He used his authority over her to manipulate her and as soon as she ended it he tried his best to make her quit.) I think the best way to tell his wife about this might be for Dot do it, just laying out the truth. But also adding something like, "I know this is hard to hear and you might not want to believe me. But if you do the slightest bit of investigation into why Jay lost his job, you will learn the truth. Talk to TL, talk to the boss, talk to the former boss, talk to Betty, talk to (eh, a girl I have not mentioned in this thread) -- they will all tell you the truth if you ask them. This is not some big conspiracy. You just have a right to know."

Or something!
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
I agree with the others, return the stuff with all the return receipt, restricted sign. stuff and have Dot tell the wife. She needs to know because she is at risk. This guy has a pattern of behavior and that pattern of behavior puts him at risk for all sorts of nasty diseases that put his wife and unborn children at risk. She needs to know.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
You know, it's strange...I think it is your responsibility to tell her, TL, whether or not you think she'll believe you. Even if, in fact, you're damn-near sure she won't.

Because he's been cheating on her for a long time, and you know about it. Because there's a kid on the way. Because he's behaving in an erratic, abusive, and predatory fashion at work towards other women. That he's been behaving in similar ways to you, and in fact has been acting kind of nuts towards you.

Well, let me be more specific and say I think you have a responsibility to make sure she learns of this likely-hidden side of her husband, because it's certainly dysfunctional and unhealthy, and potentially dangerous, as well.

As for the returning the stuff, I think you should definitely do it-he's got more to lose, but he's also nuttier than a craphouse rat, so I don't think he's likely to see reason. You'll never get him to confess to the tire. Also of course get as much of a paper-trail as you can.
 

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Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
 
Initially my reaction was B, return the stuff. However, reading Rakeesh's analysis, I have to say the "nuttier than a craphouse rat," rationale is very compelling.

I say, return the stuff, and monitor the firing situation.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
UPDATE:

Yesterday I went to the post office and mailed off his junk. I felt a lot better after having done do. So far everything I have done has been for the right reasons, and I needed to stick with that.

Last night at work my boss asked me and Dot to write additional statements for the investigation, saying, in a nut shell, that we have not ever fraternized with staff. The reason fo this is because that is the excuse they are using to fire him: fraternization. He has not been fired. Betty quit, saying she just can't keep working with him. And now corporate says Monday.

Bleh.

We'll see.
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
Um, if Dot signed statements saying she didn't fraternize with staff, then whom are they saying he fraternized with? Is Jay manipulating the boss? And now Betty is out of a job. Still, ruining his life isn't going to fix hers.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Hmmm. I'm not sure if I've been razor-bladed by bunbun or not.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
*laugh*

Okay, I will explain. Dot was a staff member working directly under Jay's supervision when they were messing around. She has since been promoted to management.

They are firing him for fraternization *with her*.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
What her statement means is that she, in her capacity as manager, does not fraternize with people under her supervision. The policy at my company places the responsibility for this on the manager, not on the employee. If a manager and an employee are socializing, it is the manager who is in the wrong, and the employee will not be punished for it.

I'm not saying if I personally think that is right, I'm just saying that is the policy of my company.
 

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Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
 
Rakeesh: fear not. I felt your advice was sage and succinct.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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Hmmm. I'm not sure if I've been razor-bladed by bunbun or not.

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I think she was agreeing with you. If she'd pulled out the switchblade you wouldn't need to ask.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I would suggest giving Betty a call once he is gone, and reinstating her if she wants to work there. She is right that she should not have had to deal with this, adn it is the company that would lose out here is she sues.

To be honest, if I was her I probably would because I would be so pissed it would be woth the aggrivation.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
The amount of time this has taken is troubling. They should've at least suspended him pending investigation. Or reassigned him to a non-supervisory slot until they could figure it out. Once they had more than one allegation and were convinced of their independence, that is.

This guy sounds dangerous.

Be careful how you get yourself and others involved in his home life (i.e., informing his wife). I agree that she should know. I just don't like much the idea of putting people in a situation where he is likely to retaliate against them. Maybe there'd be a way for his wife to find out from the company the reason for his dismissal?

Watch your back.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
TL, how attached are you to this job? How easy would it be for you to quit and find another, comparable job?

The reason I ask is that this is a major disaster for your company from a HR standpoint and I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up with a lawsuit that your company will have a hard time fighting.

Let's go step by step:

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Things went great for about 10 months, until I came to understand that his constant jokes about wanting to have sex with employees were not, in fact, jokes at all.

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I found out he was cheating on his wife with one of the staff (and probably had done it once before without me knowing).

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Eventually the girl with whom he had cheated (when she ended it, he used his authority to treat her like crap and generally tried to make life miserable for her at work) decided to inform the company of what he was up to.

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However I had learned that he was going after another employee ("Betty") pretty hard, hoping to take advantage of her in the same way he took advantage of my new friend. Let's call her "Dot." I knew this because he told me so, not yet realizing that I knew what I knew. He told me in graphic detail (and trust me it was awful) what he planned to do to Betty.

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So part of this investigation involved asking Jay to explain or respond to certain information I gave the company. Of course, he realized that I was the only person who could have told them certain things. He then concluded (correctly) that I turned him in. What he did not know however is that I was not alone, and in fact they got much more damning information from someone else.

Well, Jay immediately proceeded to badmouth me again to the folks at work, trying to establish that this is just "what I do." That anytime I'm involved in a friendship that ends I try to get some kind of cheap revenge upon the former friend. He concocted a fantasy in which I told everyone that some past friend ("Alex") was a molester of little boys.

Never happened.

I heard about a lot of stuff he said, in fact, all designed to paint the picture that I was fabricating lies and he is the virgin Mary. But I never refuted these things because I knew I was in the right and I do *not* tell the people under my supervision things that they have absolutely no need to know.

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This "investigation" has been going on for almost six weeks now. During that time, unrelated to me and Dot, a few other people have come forward with complaints against him. (Example: He lines up three girls and tells them he needs to check their tags. He then pulls open the backs of their shirts and takes weirdly too long, one of them saying he pulled back the T-shirt she was wearing under her uniform and stared at her bare back). Our boss, for four weeks in a row, has made fake manager schedules, expecting corporate to fire him.

But every week, nothing happens.

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We are given the mandate to keep him away from certain people (such as Betty) no matter what.

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Kwea, *I* am lucky they don't file suit? As soon as I knew what was going on I did what I thought was the right thing and supported them!

I agree that the company is lucky, though. They have really blown it by not handling this quickly.

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the excuse they are using to fire him: fraternization

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Betty quit, saying she just can't keep working with him.

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Betty has such an extremely strong case, especially considering that she's a minor who was forced to quit because she was sexually harassed. My old firm would have taken her case in a second.

TL, I have a feeling that this is going to blow up in your company's face. The situation reads like the employment manuals that I used to write for companies my law firm represented - the examples of how not to handle these kinds of situations.

Do not have any more contact with this person. Do not involve yourself with his family in any way. I'm sorry his wife is in the dark, but you need to protect yourself from him and from this situation. He could end up suing the company for wrongful termination. He would probably lose, but it would cost your company a lot of money and you would surely be dragged into it.

BTW, I was a labor law paralegal in NYC for 3 years and as VP of an online education company, I was responsible for the HR. Guess I should have mentioned that at the beginning.
 

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Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
 


I was hoping Mrs. M would respond to this.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
To Kwea,

We have already told Betty that there is a place here for her anytime she may want to come back (which is code for, "when he's gone".)

To Mrs.M, answers to questions .....

Q: TL, how attached are you to this job? How easy would it be for you to quit and find another, comparable job?

A: I am impossibly, terribly attached. It would be very easy to find a comparable job, but if I can help make things better at this company, this is where I want to be.

Q: Whom did he joke with? Was it just you or was it with other employees at his same level or under him? Did he do it on company property or while you and he were socializing elsewhere?

A: He just joked with me, for the most part. Both at work and socially. He never said a word to the staff, because that would have given him away.

Q: Did the affair take place while he was her supervisor? Was she coerced? Did they have any relations on company property?

A: Yes, he was her supervisor. Yes, they fooled around on company property. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "coerced" but I'm thinking no. She was not promised promotions or raises or anything like that.

Q: I assume you mean that she informed them that he was harassing her. What kind of harassment reporting does your company have? Ideally, there should be a form in the workplace manual, which each employee should have read and signed at the beginning of his or her tenure. What exactly was the nature of her complaint and to whom did she complain?

A: At my company, harassment reporting procedures are as follows: Complaints are made directly to legal counsel and when investigations are ongoing ALL involved parties are instructed not to discuss the situation at work until the investigation is complete. This is to protect the anonymity of the person making the complaint. The nature of her complaint was, in a nutshell, that he convinced her that the company policy against fraternization was silly, and they should be secret friends outside of work. Eventually he started putting pressure on her to have an affair with him. He told her horror stories of his wife, and she said she felt sorry for him and liked the attention he gave her, so -- she caved. It only went on for a couple of weeks but when she ended it, he turned on her. And there's a lot of stuff in there about him grabbing her butt, saying nasty things to her at work, etc. (While it was going on, not afterwards). This is one of the things that led to her ending the relationship; his attentions made her very uncomfortable and she was unhappy with herself that she would fool around with a married man anyway. I also wrote a complaint at the same time she did; mine was basically everything I knew that supported her statement. The things Jay told me about the affair, the joking, the things he told me about his intentions to pursue Betty. And also laying out the way his behavior had become retaliatory toward Dot at work.

Q: Well, what he did to Betty (and possibly Dot) is illegal. It's blatant sexual harassment. Did he tell you on company property? If so, did it make you feel uncomfortable? Also, did Betty report anything? If so, to whom? The proper person would be her supervisor or, if the harasser is her supervisor, the supervisor's supervisor or a HR person. This should be clearly outlined in the employee manual

A: Yes, he told me on company property. Yes, it made me feel totally uncomfortable, especially after I found out about him and Dot! When he told me about Betty, that was the end of my friendship with him. And the moment that I decided to write my statement to legal counsel. What happened with Betty finding out is, there is a particular staff member that Jay trusts above all reason; he tells her everything. (This is the same individual who informed me about the tire-slashing.) Well, he told this girl (I have tried to keep her out of this thread but let's call her "Meg") everything. Meg, being concerned, then told Betty. And Betty freaked out, because suddenly his too-friendly behavior towards her made perfect sense, and she did not like it. Meg, when she made her report to the boss about the tire-slashing, also admitted that Jay had told her everything he knew about the investigation and that she had told Betty what was going on. At this point the boss just kept rubbing his temple and going "This needs to end now. This needs to end yesterday." So the boss actually approached Betty, and he told her, "We know what's going on, and it's being taken care of. I can't tell you any more than that, but you don't have to worry." Poor Betty waited something like 4 weeks and nothing has been done about it. I don't blame her for leaving.

Q: Why do you know so much about what went on in the investigation? And who is conducting the investigation. It seems pretty slipshod to me.

A: The investigation is being conducted "on the ground" by my boss. I know so much about it because Jay has loose lips, talks to the staff about this though he has been instructed not to, and that information gets back to me through the occasional furious staff member. They are furious with me for what they have been led to believe is my "betrayal" of Jay. I handle these situations by saying, "What have you heard? From whom? When? Under what circumstances? Okay, thank you for telling me. No, in fact it is something I simply cannot discuss." Further inquiries are answered with, "I can't comment on any of this. If you are really concerned, I invite you to discuss this with the boss." I agree that it's totally shoddy and inappropriate for the staff to know ANYTHING about this. But it is not because of the investigator that they know.

Q: This is really, really bad. This goes way beyond a hostile workplace environment. Now you have 5 women with very strong harassment complaints against your company. Six weeks is far too long for an investigation.

A: I could not agree more.

Q: This could not be a less appropriate and illegal way to handle the situation. I am appalled. Not only is keeping sexual predators away from women not in anyone's job description (at your company, I assume), but it's an impossible task. You can't be everywhere all the time and I'm sure he could corner someone at some point. Your company has an obligation to create a safe work environment for all of its employees and it is failing miserably.

A: I agree, but that is what we have been told to do and we are trying our damndest to do it. You see, if it was up to any of us, this would have been handled swiftly and quietly.

Q: Are you sure you did everything correctly? Did you follow company protocol to the letter? Did you report the harassment immediately upon learning of it, or did you wait? If you waited, how long?

A: Fairly sure. Yes, for my part I followed protocol to the letter. I reported what I knew properly and to the correct people, and I have cooperated with the investigation on every level. However, I *did* wait. It was about 3 days between the time he told me what he planned to do to Betty and the time I reported him. I just wasn't sure if he really meant it. I didn't know about Dot until the following day; it was when I knew that he had already done this with Dot that I realized he was serious about Betty. After that I and Dot both made our separate reports the following day.

Q: HUGE mistake. They will have no defense when the sexual harassment lawsuits are filed. What kind of HR department does your company have?

A: This is my first real exposure to that particular department. Personally I'm less than thrilled. I've never been more miserable at work and the morale among the employees is horrible. And all of these problems could have been avoided if this had just been handled quickly. And I don't discount myself in the "hostile work environment" equation, either, just for the record. If the girls did decide to sue, just between you and me, I would support them in any way I could.

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Okay, Mrs.M, thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully consider my problems. I really do appreciate it. I look forward to hearing what you might have to say about my responses to your questions, if anything.
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
I just read the whole thread and the timeline of what I knew when I knew it sounds very muddled. So I will try to lay it out very clearly. I heard his jokes from the moment he walked in the door. Never took him seriously. He told me about Betty on 4-18-05. I found out about Dot on 4-19-05. Dot and I both made our separate reports (via email) on 4-20-05. (I just went back and checked my copy of the complaint.)

It's important to me that I am not contributing to the "hostile work environment," especially for the girls. I am trying to support them in every way that I can, while at the same time doing what the company asks me.

Do you think I am contributing to the problem? And if so, what steps might I take to correct that, in your opinion? If any....

[edit: whoops! had to correct the dates, lol.]

[ June 05, 2005, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: TL ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
You sadi that he joked with you in private about them, and while it make you feel unsocfortable, you didn't do anything about it for a long time, until you found out other behavior problems.


I would have made sure from the start that not even th jokes were OK,,adn that if he continued I would have to report him.


That is realy all I could see that you should have done different.


Kwea
 

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Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
I don't disagree with you. The truth is I think I messed in several ways, and that is one of the main ones.
 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
If they don't fire this idiot tomorrow, I'd consider taking a copy of Mrs. M's responce and giving it to your manager, the HR Dept, and more.

This guy sounds like the type that assumes the world revolves around him. Anything you do or his wife does or Dot does is in response to him, getting revenge or being jealous or simply about him. As long as he can't look beyond himself he is going to cause trouble for everyone and not care.
 

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Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
 
((()))
Good luck.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 

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A: He just joked with me, for the most part. Both at work and socially. He never said a word to the staff, because that would have given him away.

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A: Yes, he was her supervisor. Yes, they fooled around on company property. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "coerced" but I'm thinking no. She was not promised promotions or raises or anything like that.

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A: At my company, harassment reporting procedures are as follows: Complaints are made directly to legal counsel and when investigations are ongoing ALL involved parties are instructed not to discuss the situation at work until the investigation is complete.... And also laying out the way his behavior had become retaliatory toward Dot at work.

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So the boss actually approached Betty, and he told her, "We know what's going on, and it's being taken care of. I can't tell you any more than that, but you don't have to worry." Poor Betty waited something like 4 weeks and nothing has been done about it.

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A: The investigation is being conducted "on the ground" by my boss.

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Yes, for my part I followed protocol to the letter. I reported what I knew properly and to the correct people, and I have cooperated with the investigation on every level. However, I *did* wait. It was about 3 days between the time he told me what he planned to do to Betty and the time I reported him. I just wasn't sure if he really meant it. I didn't know about Dot until the following day; it was when I knew that he had already done this with Dot that I realized he was serious about Betty. After that I and Dot both made our separate reports the following day.

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If Jay is not fired tomorrow, I would walk out of there.

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