Alright, the first disk over on Netflix is perpetually on "Long Wait."
Is this a series I need to see in order, or can I start with any disk?
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
in order.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Absolutely watch it in order. A major reason Firefly never took off while on the air was that Fox aired it out of order, actually showing the two-hour pilot last.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
It's well worth the 35$ to buy the DVDs. If I'd just charge rental fees to my friends and family, I'd have made my money back by now.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Odd. I didn't have to wait. But I would second Frisco's statement--after renting the series, I asked for it for my birthday. You will probably want to become a Firefly evangelist (more fans = more people going to see Serenity = more movies), and the best way to do that is to own your own set, so you can lend it to people.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Without question see it in order.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
[ June 03, 2005, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Have there been two Firefly DVD sets, one with less commentary, and one more? If so, how can I tell which is which?
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
No, there's only the one set.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Thanks for the answers. I guess I got a birthday comin' up.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Firefly is worth the birthday present!
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
If you haven't already, try going ahead and putting it as #1 in your queue -- even if it says "long wait," you might get it soon anyway. Netflix shows the Battlestar Galactica miniseries as being "long wait," but I just put it as #1 in my queue and got it right away... Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I didn't see it in order and I was fine. One of my friends gave me a short intro of all the characters and the situation and I saw "Our Mrs. Reynolds" first. Whenever I show it to people I always skip "Serenity" which I think is slow and rather boring and just start them out on "The Train Job."
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Slow and boring or not, it introduces and sets up the main characters. They're both on the same disc, no reason not to watch them in order.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I haven't watched the pilot (serenity) and I think I'm ok, but I was given a good explanation. We did watch most of the others in order, but they skipped one so we could watch "Our Mrs. Reynolds" before it was time to go home.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Our Mrs. Reynolds was the show that made me love the series. I saw The Train Job and the The Pilot before, and they were good and not boring, but I wasn't really hooked. Our Mrs. Reynolds did such a good job highlighting everyone's character that I felt like I knew them then.
That, and Malcolm's final comment. Completely believable! So typical! Oh my stars! Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Chris- if I only have one episode to get them hooked, I'm sure not going to show them what I think is one of the weakest episodes when there's another that will serve just as well.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
That's the first time I've heard anyone describe "Serenity" as one of the weakest episodes. Firefly haters aside, just about everyone I've shown the series to agrees that it's one of the (if not THE) best episodes.
Diff'rent strokes, I guess. Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I've had it at the top of my queue for nearly a month, with my fingers crossed.
Which makes it hard to type these posts.
And I hardly ever buy movies I haven't seen yet--that's just too much commitment for me for something I don't know well enough. Sort of like an arranged marriage.
Posted by 1lobo1 (Member # 7762) on :
If you enjoy well made television with real humor and drama with an interesting universe on top...just go out and buy it!
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I'm with you, Tarrsk. Serenity is my favorite episode, with Out Of Gas running a close second.
Slow? Boring? What?!
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I like Trash and Our Mrs Reynolds. Can you guess which character I like? =)
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Um, actually, no . . .
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I shouldn't have read this thread. I've justified all of my purchases this week as "graduation presents"...for myself of course. This seems like a good one, albeit $35 that I should NOT spend because it's really for classes later.
Darn you all!
*grapples with doubt and logic*
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Buy it, Narnia! It is your DESTINY!
Whoops, wrong universe. Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
Wrong universe or not, it's still her destiny to have her very own copy.
These little things below are here just because this thread is about Firefly. Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Narnia, You could always do some exciting new crime.
(Please do not do exciting new crime.)
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
Does anyone know if it'll be necessary to have watched the Firefly series to watch the new movie? I don't really want to spend too much money on a series I've never seen before, so I was going to use the movie to judge...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You'll like the movie a lot better for having seen the series, though I'm sure you'd like it either way.
I'm sure someone'll let you borrow it.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Yeah, the movie caters a bit to those who've already seen the show, in my opinion.
Of course, I didn't talk to anyone at the screening who hadn't seen the show, so I could be talking out my ass.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
That's been known to have happened before Eddie, so we won't be shocked.
I'm going to try to wait until after next week when my tuition comes flying through my bank account, yanking out most of the funds. Then, I will have successfully finished my year of student teaching and I'll definitely deserve a reward.
Keep talking me into it folks. Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
From what I've heard (although keep in mind that this is very limited, as I am avoiding spoilers like a mofo), non-Firefly fans seem to be enjoying the movie very much. I would *guess* that the stuff for fans comes mostly from continuity references and character moments rather than inexplicable plot revelations.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I need to rewatch the pilot. I saw it as the first Firefly episode, and I haven't seen it since.
I did love Out of Gas. My favorite was the adoption of Jayne. "This isn't funny!" "I'm not laughing!"
Narnia: It is wonderful. Totally worth it. Of course, I haven't gotten mine yet. I spent the money for it on a haircut instead. What was I thinking?
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: Chris- if I only have one episode to get them hooked, I'm sure not going to show them what I think is one of the weakest episodes when there's another that will serve just as well.
For what it's worth, I'm with you. I thought "The Train Job" was a better introduction to the series than the original pilot. (Which is not to say that trimming the heck out of the original pilot might not have been a reasonable alternative...)
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ginol_Enam: Does anyone know if it'll be necessary to have watched the Firefly series to watch the new movie? I don't really want to spend too much money on a series I've never seen before, so I was going to use the movie to judge...
I know somebody who'd never seen the show, went to the movie, loved it, and resolved to sit down and watch the entire series. On the other hand, she was already a Joss Whedon fan... how somebody not versed in the Ways of Whedon would react is, to me, the big question.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I would have never been interested in checking out Buffy if I hadn't fallen in love with Firefly.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:I would have never been interested in checking out Buffy if I hadn't fallen in love with Firefly.
Ditto. I never saw Buffy before Firefly, now I'm going back and having lots of fun watching Buffy. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
My favourite episodes are the last three (Heart of Gold, The Message, and Objects in Space). Whenever I watch the series (when introducing someone new to it) I always feel like the first eleven episodes are all well and good but they're really just building up for the last three.
Though "I knew you let her kiss you!" is one of my favourite lines ever. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I know you feel that way twinky, but The Message is one of my least favorite episodes. If I had to pick three favorites at the moment they'd be (in no particular order) Out of Gas, War Stories, and Objects in Space.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I still get shivers when I think of Out of Gas and Objects in Space.
I'm hoping that I get Firefly for my birthday, so I can watch it with impunity.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Objects in Space is DEFINATELY my favorite episode, by far. Of course, thats not saying much about the rest cause I really love Firefly (I have blackwolve to thank for that, she made me watch it ). Second favorite... would probably just be the rest of the series I like Out of Gas a lot, and War Stories and Ariel and... oh heck all of the rest of them Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Disc 3 is shipping today!
Ah, the joys of having a major Netflix hub just down the freeway (in San Jose).
What's great about seeing them again is that it's been so long since the series originally aired, that I can vaguely remember if I have seen an episode or not, but don't remember all that happened.
It's like falling in love all over again. Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Well, it's settled.
They're shipping me disc 1 tommorrow.
Blackmail works.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
If you sign up for Amazon.com's Visa card, you get a $30 "promotional" thingy, and i got Firefly for free!
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
That's what we did, Leonide - except we took advantage of the sale on the Wonderfalls boxset. We got both (including shipping) for one cent less than the Wonderfalls $23.99 sale price.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I know! Reading about it on Vana's Livejournal is how I learned about it! :0)
Posted by Lady Eruve (Member # 6883) on :
I just finished watching the DVDs. I was surprised to find that I actually did see most of the episodes on TV. I had forgotten how great that show was, and now I can't wait for the movie! *bounce*
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
From the review I posted on my blog:
I've been reading Firefly hype everywhere, so I've been anxious to give the show a shot. Last night, I watched the pilot episode, "Serenity." I must say I was enjoying it--until they stumbled upon my pet peeve in all of television, and committed the nearly unforgivable sin.
Needless to say, "Serenity" spoilers follow.
The absolute, positively worst thing a filmmaker can do--especially in sci-fi--is mock the viewer for believing. The second you do that, you absolutely destroy the willing suspension of disbelief, and you drive the viewer right out of your story. Trust is destroyed--at that point, if their heart was ever in it, it has stopped being in it, and you will have to work even harder to get them back.
As you've probably guessed, "Serenity" has one of these moments. There's a character who is shot, and though she spends most of the episode trying to recover, there's a moment when "the hand falls." Now, if at that point she'd have turned out to be alive, I'd have been okay with that. But then, the guy who dropped her hand actually tells someone she's dead.
Now I knew the character wasn't dead. She's on the IMDB cast lists, and she's in the opening credits montage. So when I see the religious character headed towards the girl, I think, "Ah. There's going to be a fantasy element here, where they bring her back from the dead."
But it's nothing so profound as that. See, it was a joke.
The character was joking when he told the other character the girl was dead, and, apparently, joking when he let her hand fall. He and the other characters get a good laugh out of this.
Except the real joke isn't on any of the characters--it's on the viewer. And when you mock your viewer for believing you, you lose them.
I'm not saying I'm not going to continue watching the show, nor that the show has no redeeming qualities. I will and it does.
That was like something out of a student script, though. I hope the rest of the games they play aren't as amateur.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No, he let her hand fall when she went to sleep and he left, then he went and made the joke. The joke was on both Simon and the viewers.
And a joke does not have to be mocking.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I loved that part.
But then again, I saw the pilot first, and before hearing anything about the show, so I thought it totally feasible that she was dead.
Of course, I have a sick sense of humor, too.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought it was a pretty tense moment, and then a good tension breaker. I didn't read that much into it.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I thought the joke was great.
You should listen to the commentary of Joss Whedon and Nathan Fillion (sp?) (who played Mal) for that bit.
Also, given Joss's prediliction for abruptly kiling major characters (Names of dead characters who shall not be named. You all know who they are though. I personally thought when so-and-so died because of you-know-what was the worst one. ) it *could* have been true.
[ June 18, 2005, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
You know what's funny?
I thought it was obvious that she wasn't dead, since she didn't seem deathly, nor did they deal with it right after it happened -- so when Mal told Simon that she was, I smirked -- such a Mal thing to do, and I'd only been watching the show for like an hour!
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
God the show was written well! I laughed my a** off when he did that. I howled with joy when he just walked in and killed the law officer, just taking charge. Oh and when he tossed the guy into the engine, that was so funny I litterally laughed until I cried, the tourture scenes, with the dialogue about the girl... Who cancelled this thing anyway?
BC
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Great. So everybody enjoys it when filmmakers employ the absolute worst goofy twist tactic of all time.
::is now a whole lot less excited about this series's possiblities::
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Except the real joke isn't on any of the characters--it's on the viewer. And when you mock your viewer for believing you, you lose them.
I guess if you got offended, instead of lauging at Simon and seeing that that was a perfect example of Mal's character, then maybe the series isn't for you. Because there are probably other moments in which Joss uses "goofy twist tactics" for comedic effect. But I don't know what they are, so I'm not looking for them.
Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
I thought that scene was absolutely brilliant, myself, and as Lyrhawn says, a tension breaker. One of the things Joss likes to do is play around with the formulas we've all seen before, and give us a twist. I find it quite refreshing to see the stupid things that characters are so often called to do actively denounced. A good example is Mal shooting the law officer rather than going for a Mexican standoff kind of situation, and an even better one comes at the end of The Train Job.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I felt the same way as you, docmagik, when I first saw Serenity. I felt, like you, that I had been tricked. I thought it was a really mean way to write.
But then I watched the rest of the series, and it made sense. That is Mal. He would do something like that to rich, coddled person he percieves Simon to be. The fact that the viewer is as naive about Mal as Simon becomes almost part of the plot- we are naive, we don't know Mal at all, and so it's a horrible joke that makes us squirm and know that we are as out our depth as Simon. It's not the viewer who's being tricked, it's Simon, and we, who are just starting off in Serenity and we think we know SO much more than Simon are suddenly jolted in the realisation that we know NOTHING about this crew and this man. It puts us in our place.
quote: instead of lauging at Simon
I disagree. I think we are not supposed to laugh at Simon that first time we see the episode without really knowing the characters. We are supposed to be LIKE Simon, we are suppose to feel what he feels when he sees they've played a joke on him.
When we see it again, we think, "ha, Simon's so gullible here", but really we were tricked too, now we are on the inside. This is partially why seeing the episodes in order is so important, and also why it's important to watch the episodes more than once.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
imogen, could you edit your post to take out the spoilers of the names of the dead characters? Some of us (i.e., me) are still catching up on watching Buffy and Angel Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Sorry!
I presumed everyone here had seen those deaths already. Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:The absolute, positively worst thing a filmmaker can do--especially in sci-fi--is mock the viewer for believing. The second you do that, you absolutely destroy the willing suspension of disbelief, and you drive the viewer right out of your story. Trust is destroyed--at that point, if their heart was ever in it, it has stopped being in it, and you will have to work even harder to get them back.
Not exactly. Like all of Joss Whedon's shows, Firefly occasionally darts into post-modernism, in this case by playing with the viewer's expectations by using filmic techniques designed to lead the viewer into a false belief. Think of it as dramatic irony focused as much at the viewer as at the character of Simon.
Jargon-happy analysis aside, I think this sequence is absolutely hilarious. It's always fun to watch the faces of new viewers as they realize what happened. The "character death --> cue slow-motion mourning sequence" is such an overblown cliche that it was refreshing to see a filmmaker poke fun at it. And regardless of your view on Joss' technique, the fact also remains that the scene is VERY informative regarding the characters of Mal and Simon. As Teshi noted, Mal is exactly the kind of person who would play a wealthy, self-important jerk for fun, and at that point in the series, Mal views Simon as just such a person. At the same time, it shows that, despite his ultimatum to Mal earlier, Simon is a true doctor- absolutely devastated upon learning that his patient is "dead."
quote:Now I knew the character wasn't dead. She's on the IMDB cast lists, and she's in the opening credits montage. So when I see the religious character headed towards the girl, I think, "Ah. There's going to be a fantasy element here, where they bring her back from the dead."
That's the whole point- Whedon KNOWS that such a scene will lead viewers to respond in a specific way, because they've been taught to do so by endless movies and TV shows that do just that. He's subverting the viewer's expectations on purpose. Frankly, I would've been far more upset if Whedon had pulled a Lord of the Rings-style "all the characters think she's dead but we know she's actually alive." THAT kills dramatic tension for me. Whedon understands that, as an audience, we hold as subjective a view as that of any character, and by manipulating our subjective view, he can surprise us by leading us down one path and then abruptly shifting us to another. It's actually a very mature style of filmmaking that most movie-level directors can't manage.
quote:The character was joking when he told the other character the girl was dead, and, apparently, joking when he let her hand fall.
Nope. Mal was just letting the hand fall because Kaylee went to sleep. The fact that it was shot to suggest that his reason was because she died does not mean that that was actually his reason. Remember: Whedon is treating the audience as a subjective entity. In order for the joke to work, we have to, like Simon, really believe that Kaylee is dead. Shots like the hand dropping are subtle ways to do that, because audiences are so groomed by modern film to interpret that as a sign of death (even though, if you really think about it, people don't usually let their hands fall dramatically just as they die). That makes it genuinely surprising for the viewer when it turns out that Kaylee is still alive.
quote:Except the real joke isn't on any of the characters--it's on the viewer. And when you mock your viewer for believing you, you lose them.
Well, the comments in this thread would certainly suggest that most people aren't "lost" so much as "extremely entertained."
Either way, though, the joke is very much about the characters. Simon is the butt of the joke as much as the audience- when we cut to Mal and the others laughing, they're laughing at Simon, not a hypothetical audience (now THAT would kill suspension of disbelief).
And again, Whedon is not "mocking" the viewer. He is a director who understands how film technique is commonly used to guide the viewer, and who understands that these conventions can be twisted to create unanticipated situations. It's something of a hallmark of his shows that he's never quite leading the audience where they expect, and I think this gives them a freshness unmatched by anything else on TV.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
(Spoilers for various episodes on Disc 1)
Okay, first, for those who don't understand irony--I get that he let the hand fall because she was asleep.
I'm not an idiot, I swear.
But it was a deliberate mislead on the part of the director--he admits in his commentary--and isn't really something a person does with a sleeping person. It was a set-up for a gag, plain and simple, and there was no other reason to include it.
It would only work as a "subtle" mislead if there were really any circumstances under which people dropped people hands. There aren't. When people are sleeping, especially injured people, you set their sleeping hand down. You have to admit, he cheated here.
My simple statement was a way of pointing out, in a way that I thought would be clear, yet succinct, that he was setting up a joke that he really didn't have a reason to be making yet.
The brilliance of true misleading twists--like that of the sixth sense, or even, in this episode, the less important "twist" that the treasure turns out to be foil-wrapped food, not gold--is that they're plain, they're right in front of you, and that you feel like an idiot for not noticing them sooner.
Like in "Bushwacked," when it turns out the siblings are hiding on top of the ship. They spent the whole episode setting up that hiding place. That works.
What does not work (for me, at least, if y'all are fine with it, more power to you) is when a filmmaker actually shows you one set of events, and then goes, "Psyche! Those events never happened. Sucker!"
It's like Jerry Seinfeld's joke on the bad magician. He's basically going, "Here's a coin, now it's gone, you're a jerk, now it's back, you're an idiot."
This wasn't just Mal going "Just kidding" to Simon, it was Joss going "Just kidding" to the audience. That's what I mean by "mocking." He's saying, "I can toy with you just for fun, and cheat a little to do it."
The idea that a "Just Kidding" moment is "a very mature style of filmmaking that most movie-level directors can't manage" makes me spit-take my soda. A just-kidding moment is a six-year-old going "There's something on your tie," and then laughing because there really isn't anything on your tie, and you're just gullible.
Again--I'm not saying Joss isn't talented. There were some great moments in this series, as many people have pointed out. But trying to defend a bone-headed scene by saying "This scene over here was good!" only proves there's not much in that scene to defend.
The majority of people defending the scene, I think, are people who only saw the pilot after seeing some episodes of the regular series. Like me, they knew Kaylee wasn't dead, and they were waiting to see how they got around that one. The payoff appealed to them because of their pre-existing knowledge of the characters.
However, as an introductory scene, not to the characters, but to the show, I do not think it worked at all. It sends the message: "We can do anything we want, and then think of any excuse we want to back out of it at any point. We don't need to provide you with clues, or give any more reason for jerking you around than that we were kidding."
Teshi's also said that it was only on subsequent viewings the scene worked at all.
If that style of "twist" is entertaining and mature to you, great.
I think you have something on your tie.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I saw the pilot first off and didn't have any of the problems you had with that scene.
Different strokes and all that I guess. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
It worked for me. I didn't feel cheated at all.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:But it was a deliberate mislead on the part of the director--he admits in his commentary--and isn't really something a person does with a sleeping person. It was a set-up for a gag, plain and simple, and there was no other reason to include it.
It would only work as a "subtle" mislead if there were really any circumstances under which people dropped people hands. There aren't. When people are sleeping, especially injured people, you set their sleeping hand down. You have to admit, he cheated here.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. Maybe I'm just insensitive, but dropping the hand didn't seem out of place, even in retrospect, knowing that Kaylee wasn't dead. And I'm usually pretty nitpicky about stuff like this, even with Whedon shows. As an example (SPOILERS for Buffy below!):
SPOILERS BEGIN In one of the third-season episodes of Buffy, Angel pretends to lose his soul in order to trick Faith into revealing her treachery. A similar "fool the audience" trick is used here, but in a way that genuinely insults the intelligence of the audience. Specifically, Angel's "reversion" is caused by a strange mage hired by the central villain. It is later revealed that the mage is actually working for Giles, and that the flashy special effects were done to give Faith the impression that Angel had, in fact, lost his soul.
Now, I have no problems with the way the rest of the misdirection was handled- specifically, Angel acting like his former self, Buffy pretending to be devastated, Angel even clocking Xander a good one to really make the point. All of that, while sneaky, shows good internal continuity and logic, so that in retrospect, the audience can go "OHH, so that's what he was doing!" rather than "wait, that doesn't make sense."
The problem comes from the use of the weird mage guy. While it makes perfect sense that Giles would have had dealings with such a man in the past, it doesn't explain how Giles knew in advance that the villain would hire someone to de-soul Angel. It's not a tactic that's ever been used previously (the one time it happened, it was a complete accident), and Giles himself never heard about the villain's plan, unless some really spectacular intelligence work was done behind the audience's backs. The internal logic of the scene doesn't add up. END SPOILERS
quote:The brilliance of true misleading twists--like that of the sixth sense, or even, in this episode, the less important "twist" that the treasure turns out to be foil-wrapped food, not gold--is that they're plain, they're right in front of you, and that you feel like an idiot for not noticing them sooner.
The difference between those examples and Kaylee's un-death is that it's not supposed to be plain... Mal is actively working to fool Simon. Since, in this instance, we are being placed in Simon's shoes, placing hints of Mal's duplicity would work against the scene. Simon sure as hell wouldn't have suspected any different.
quote:What does not work (for me, at least, if y'all are fine with it, more power to you) is when a filmmaker actually shows you one set of events, and then goes, "Psyche! Those events never happened. Sucker!"
Except that he doesn't. The events happened. They just happened to be photographed in a way that suggested different motives than the real ones.
quote:This wasn't just Mal going "Just kidding" to Simon, it was Joss going "Just kidding" to the audience. That's what I mean by "mocking." He's saying, "I can toy with you just for fun, and cheat a little to do it."
*shrug* You can look at it that way, if you like. I see it as Joss playing a good-natured prank on the audience while poking fun at cinematic conventions, and simultaneously informing us about the characters of Simon and Mal.
quote:The idea that a "Just Kidding" moment is "a very mature style of filmmaking that most movie-level directors can't manage" makes me spit-take my soda. A just-kidding moment is a six-year-old going "There's something on your tie," and then laughing because there really isn't anything on your tie, and you're just gullible.
A poor choice of phrasing on my part, sorry. My point was that the entire joke depends on the audience being familiar with certain movie/TV conventions (slow-mo as an indicator of shock and sadness, the preacher as a symbol for death, etc). It's funny because we realize that our expectations can be so easily manipulated by maudlin filmmaking technique, just as Simon is tricked by Mal. Again, this is Whedon's post-modernist side rearing to the fore, using the audience's awareness of technique itself as a tool to manipulate (yes, "fool," if you want) that audience.
quote:Again--I'm not saying Joss isn't talented. There were some great moments in this series, as many people have pointed out. But trying to defend a bone-headed scene by saying "This scene over here was good!" only proves there's not much in that scene to defend.
I don't think anyone did that. People have pointed out that post-modern misdirection and "goofy twist tactics" are a peculiarly Jossian thing (with The Train Job as a common example), and one that, maybe, you either "get" or you don't. Unfortunately, if you don't enjoy these sort of jokes, a significant number of common fan favorite moments throughout the series will probably fall flat for you.
No biggie, though. Diff'rent strokes, as imogen put it.
quote:The majority of people defending the scene, I think, are people who only saw the pilot after seeing some episodes of the regular series. Like me, they knew Kaylee wasn't dead, and they were waiting to see how they got around that one. The payoff appealed to them because of their pre-existing knowledge of the characters.
I saw "Serenity" first, without ever seeing the box art or promotional images. I had no idea who was main cast and who wasn't, and was completely convinced that Kaylee was dead until Simon stumbles into view of the infirmary. Yeah, that durned Joss fooled me good... and I loved it.
quote:However, as an introductory scene, not to the characters, but to the show, I do not think it worked at all. It sends the message: "We can do anything we want, and then think of any excuse we want to back out of it at any point. We don't need to provide you with clues, or give any more reason for jerking you around than that we were kidding."
Close. It, in fact, sends that exact message except for the backing out part. One constant in all Joss Whedon shows is that consequences matter. Something that happens in one episode will come back to bite you in the ass ten episodes later. However, Whedon shows also deviate from the norm in that they are perfectly happy to do whatever they want. Unconventional technique? Sure! Point the audience one way and then pull the rug out from under them, over and over again? You betcha! In the homogenized blandscape that is modern television, I consider such a philosophy a blessing.
quote:Teshi's also said that it was only on subsequent viewings the scene worked at all.
And I respectfully disagree with him- I think it works fine as it is. To be honest, this thread is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about this scene, and I've discussed "Serenity" with several dozen people at this point. Lots more if you count online message forums. Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
See, the fact that you would point to The Train Job as having more moments like this one makes me feel you really don't understand what I'm trying to say at all. There is nothing remotely like this in The Train Job. Nothing that came within light-years of this.
See, there's nothing else I saw in any of the other episodes that made me think the series would continue to give me grief. The things you guys are talking about--particularly Mal's tendency to dispactch bad guys humourously quickly--are a whole lot of fun.
But it's just really blowing my mind that people think those have anything to do with what I'm talking about. If you think what I didn't like is to be found in The Train Job, we're having two different conversations here.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Actually I thought that was one of the better jokes in the series. I don't know why you're assuming that we aren't supposed to laugh at Simon in the first episode.
Ah well, you go ahead and think everyone who liked it are idiots and I'll go ahead and think you're an idiot. Everyone's happy.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: Teshi's also said that it was only on subsequent viewings the scene worked at all.
That's not what I meant or what I hope I said. What I meant is that it works two different ways, neither which I find bad. the first time, when you are tricked and you feel Simon's intense embaressment, and the second time when you find it amusing. As I said before, this works not only within the show but also for you as a viewer, first time naive, second time not so much. I disliked it the first time, but looking back I like that I disliked it. I wouldn't change it.
Does that make sense?
I do think it's slightly childish and mean but unfortunately that's not only Joss but also Mal. It's a dirty trick to play on someone so out of his depth as Simon and the viewer.
quote: And I respectfully disagree with him
Her. And you agree with me.
EDIT: I think we can either laugh or not laugh at Simon, depending on who we are. If we are like Mal, and we get it. If we were tricked like Simon (like me), we do not laugh because we are embarressed for him and for ourselves. It's open to a personal reaction. I like it.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:See, the fact that you would point to The Train Job as having more moments like this one makes me feel you really don't understand what I'm trying to say at all. There is nothing remotely like this in The Train Job. Nothing that came within light-years of this.
I'd say the "kicking the guy into the engine after his big dramatic evil speech" is quite similar, as far as misdirecting the audience goes. In both cases, the scene is shot in order to suggest one predictable conclusion, but results in something completely different (Mal isn't even toying with Crow in the "Train Job," the way he is with Simon in "Serenity," so the argument that the misdirection is diagetic doesn't apply). Whedon shoots the Crow monologue in a way that, on any other show, would've led logically to Crow's release and later return as a recurring villain. And then Mal kicks him into the engine. The scene wouldn't be nearly as funny as it is if Whedon hadn't very purposefully misdirected the viewer into a specific (and very wrong) expectation.
quote:But it's just really blowing my mind that people think those have anything to do with what I'm talking about. If you think what I didn't like is to be found in The Train Job, we're having two different conversations here.
Apparently we are. Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily... it just means that a scene that bugs you doesn't bug us.
quote:Her. And you agree with me.
Oops... my bad. And I'm glad I agree with you. Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Jebus, nobody's an idiot. This is basically what OSC calls "Reader response" criticism. And as OSC points out, even when wise readers disagree, wise readers are never, ever wrong, because they are all reporting on their own experience.
I can no more argue that you didn't like it than you can argue that I liked it. Nobody's really "wrong" here.
I'm not seeking to change anybody's minds. I'm just seeking to be understood. I'm as perturbed to find my opinion called unjustified as you must be if you feel I'm saying yours is unjustified.
All I'm trying to do is help people understand why I think it was cheap and immature. And apparently nobody does--not even remotely.
I'm not embarrased for myself. I knew she wasn't dead. Instead, I was extremly dissapointed that, after such a set-up, the director's out was "just kidding."
I'm not against twists on convention. M. Night is my absolute favorite writer/director. I loved both the other episodes on this disk, including the twists. I watched Buffy fairly faithfully the last couple of seasons.
What I hate, what is my pet peeve, what is absolutely the writing equivalent of fingernails on a chalkboard to me, is when a writer accomplishes a twist by cheating. I absolutely felt he cheated here. He set himself up in a way he had to bail out of, and as far as cleverness goes, "Just kidding," ranks really really low on the innovation scale for bail-outs.
quote:In both cases, the scene is shot in order to suggest one predictable conclusion . . .
It wasn't a "predicatble conclusion." It was a set of events that, speaking storywise, had occurred. Rather than dealing with them, he backed out on them. And instead of coming up with a logical explination for it, it was simply done as a "Just kidding, viewer."
You really can't understand why I see a difference here?
Do you really think that, if he had done this a couple more times, you would start having a hard time taking the show seriously at any dramatic moment, knowing he might just be screwing with you again?
Isn't there just a wee little bit of boy who called wolf in this scene?
Come, on, somebody--throw me a bone here.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
quote:He set himself up in a way he had to bail out of, and as far as cleverness goes, "Just kidding," ranks really really low on the innovation scale for bail-outs.
This could be the point of contention. While I'm pretty sure you're describing it from your point of view, it seems like you're saying he wrote himselk into that spot and then bailed out through incompetence, where many of us are seeing it as something he set up and delivered exactly as he wanted to from the beginning. That scene, annoying as it was to you, accomplished several things. It defined Simon as someone who cared about his patients, where before all we knew was that he was (apparently) willing to let someone die for his own ends. It defined Mal as someone willing and perfectly capable of lying to someone for fun. Did Mal do it just to be mean? Was he getting a little revenge for the very real trouble the doctor had already gotten them all into? Was he maybe curious what the doctor's true attitude towards the dying might be? I'd say it's very likely some of all three, because I'll bet that had Simon not reacted that way, no way in hell would he ever have been offered a job as ship's doctor.
It also defined the show as one where the usual television conventions do not apply, where the cliches cannot be trusted. The fact is that he doesn't do this again, and after that one lapse the show is more cliche free than any other show I can remember watching. Time and time again the characters would react in ways that were not the accepted TV manner but would do something I might do, or something even better than I could have thought of. And then they deal with what happens afterwards.
I think that scene was important both in defining the characters and in letting us know that we weren't in TVland any more.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I do understand why someone could be upset at watching the scene, and how they might feel betrayed by the creators. Had the scene run exactly as it was but cut after Kaylee closed her eyes (without the hand falling), I doubt it would have bothered you as much. I also don't think it would have been as effective.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Jebus, nobody's an idiot.
Oh sorry, the pretentious tone fooled me.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: you would start having a hard time taking the show seriously at any dramatic moment, knowing he might just be screwing with you again?
To me, that's kind of the point. Don't get stuck in a predictability rut. Dare to take something seriously. Dare to be wrong about it.
It keeps you on your toes, keeps you guessing. Firefly is an intense show to watch because you're never quite sure. As someone who can predict many TV plotlines, lines and jokes a mile off, this is important.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I just want to say that Firefly looks absolutely GORGEOUS on our new LCD TV. Better than anything else we've watched on it so far. There's so many details I'd never seen before!
Doc: While I disagree with you and think the Dying Kaylee scene was brilliantly executed and hilarious, I see your point. You thought it was cheap. No one else thinks it was cheap. But you're an audience member too and your reaction is just as important as anyone elses. The fact that you're voted down doesn't change the fact that it took away, rather than adding, to your experience.
Pix
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
quote:Oh sorry, the pretentious tone fooled me.
If this is the problem (and I can accept that it probably is), I apologize.
In fact, after reading this thread, my wife said, "See, this is your problem, Doc. You can't get your point across without sounding contemptous. You say, 'I just want to understand,' but you don't reciprocate."
So, yeah. Sorry. Now you know the hell that is trying to have a conversation with me.
And Pix . . . thanks.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
quote:If this is the problem (and I can accept that it probably is), I apologize.
No need. I don't think anyone here thinks you're not entitled to your own opinion.
Jebus' abusive tone probably just fooled you.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
quote: While I'm pretty sure you're describing it from your point of view, it seems like you're saying he wrote himselk into that spot and then bailed out through incompetence, where many of us are seeing it as something he set up and delivered exactly as he wanted to from the beginning.
Okay, I think the best way I put it was when I said it's like the kid who says, "Hey! You've got something on your tie!" And then when you look, he laughs at you. I just don't find that clever.
So yeah, I think he did it on purpouse--I just don't find it that clever or entertaining that he's able to mislead me. Of course he can mislead me! He's got the camera! He's got the actors! That doesn't make him clever.
What makes a twist clever is the means by which it is executed. In the filmmaker's ability to make you feel like you're understanding things better (like in 6th Sense) rather than finally having the blinders taken off he's forced you to wear in order to hide his twists from you.
In this case, there's nothing clever about "Just Kidding." I got tired of that "Psyche!" game around second grade. ____________________________________
That all said, I finally finished watching them, and I enjoyed the rest of the series tremendously.
The Train Job was probably my favorite episode--I'm an action fan.
It did have that problem new series have--every so often, somebody would do something that seemed to jar with who I thought these people were, as the writers and actors figured out what they were doing--but not nearly so bad as, say, the first season of the Simpsons. That's part of the creative process of television.
Listening to the commentary for "Objects In Space," though--I don't know. Did anybody watching that show really think it was as philisophical as Joss was trying to make it?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Okay, I think the best way I put it was when I said it's like the kid who says, "Hey! You've got something on your tie!" And then when you look, he laughs at you. I just don't find that clever.
That must be where we differ. My nephew did that to me recently (well, the variation where he points and when you look down, he runs his finger up your face) and, not having had that done to me in, oh, a decade, I cracked up. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
docmagik -- All I can say is that I've never had that response to that scene, not the first time I saw it or any since. Obviously it didn't work for you, but I'm glad you stuck through the rest of the series.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I should be in bed by now--I was planning to be, but it hasn't quite happened yet. I can't go to sleep, though, without asking--docmagic, when you say:
quote:It did have that problem new series have--every so often, somebody would do something that seemed to jar with who I thought these people were, as the writers and actors figured out what they were doing
What actions are you thinking of? One of the startling things, to me, was that Firefly didn't have missteps like that, with a single exception (that I'm not even sure could be considered an exception, honestly. It's the part where Mal tells Simon that if he ever shoots him, he (Simon) will be awake and armed. I've never been sure why Mal said that, since such an approach isn't really his style. I think I could see him *saying* it was, but I'm not sure that I can see that happening in that particular scene).
Posted by ? (Member # 2319) on :
Am I missing something? This is the first time I've ever even heard of this Firefly show. You all seem to really like it.
Why have I not heard of it, and what have I been missing?
?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
*grins* Mine just shipped from Amazon today. Yeah, I totally folded and bought them.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
?, you probably haven't heard about it because it was cancelled halfway through the first season. Despite this, it is one of the best shows I have ever seen. The dialogue is hilarious, and the characters are all pretty well fleshed-out and interesting--some are even quite mysterious.
I really like the fact that the show tends to violate some television conventions--the Train Job incident spoken of earlier, for instance.
Docmagik, I will agree with you that the hand-dropping bit was cheating a little. However, I saw the scene as more of a wink-and-nod at the audience than a gotcha! moment. It seems more like parody to me. The scene worked for me, though. I watched all the episodes in order, and didn't pay enough attention to the title sequence to know that Kaylee was recurring. When she got shot, I was not sure whether she'd live. The scene with Mal talking to her was sending mixed signals on Kaylee's status. Kaylee seemed stable, and Mal didn't look particularly concerned. Kaylee did talking about feeling cold, and Mal almost had the attitude of humoring the dying person in order to comfort her. However, there was a doctor on board. If Mal thought Kaylee was dying, he would have been screaming for Simon. So when he dropped her hand, I was confused. I was pretty sure she was alive; why did he drop her hand like that? Nonetheless, I didn't believe she was dead until Mal told Simon that Kaylee was dead. I foolishly assumed that Mal wasn't lying, and discarded my previous knowledge in favor of this new information. I guess since the moment of belief in Kaylee's "death" came at exactly the same time and for the same reasons as Simon's belief, I felt that I was taken in by Mal's joke instead of Joss's. And I felt the same shock and relief on seeing Kaylee sitting up and waving that Simon apparently did. Because I was fooled, I got to participate in those emotions.
That is why I liked that scene. Because it made fun of cliches and conventions, and because I got to participate fully in the emotions of the event. And also probably because it wasn't the scene in the infirmary that convinced me, but rather Mal's statement.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Actually, that scene with Mal and Simon was absolutely one of the scenes I stumbled on. He sounded absolutely serious, and the context was absolutely serious, so I took it as a serious guideline to Mal's behavior. It ended up being not nearly as etched in stone as a character trait as I thought it would be after that scene.
I can sort of explain around it. Mal sort of took it personally that Simon would imply he'd take Simon out that way, so his statement wasn't so much a declaration of a personal creedo as it was a reaction to the slight he'd felt from Simon. Once I got past it, it didn't bother me so bad.
Another was in the backstory, when Kaylee was sleeping with the ship's original engineer. I wouldn't expect to find Kaylee sleeping with a stranger while they were on shore leave--she seems like too much of a romantic for one night stands--so it seemed weird to have her doing that in the past.
I understand she was seeing it as a way to get around engines, but I see her as a bit innocent and naive, and I don't think you can stay all that innocent and naive sleeping with dirty men on dirty ships just to get around engines.
There were a few others, but those were the two big ones for me.
[ July 09, 2005, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: docmagik ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
A bit that annoyed me and still annoys me whenever I watch the episode is the ending to The Message. Why doesn't anyone tell the guy what the plan is before shooting him? It's stupid.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
jebus: because he's the kind of guy who will mess up a plan. He wasn't that great a soldier, didn't follow orders.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Right, so it's better to kill him.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well, despite appearing innocent, throughout the series Kaylee's clearly trying to get Simon to show more affection than he does- this seems to include sleeping with him. She's completely puzzles when he explains why he won't- she expects him too want to immediately.
I don't think it's particularly innocence or naivite we see in Kaylee, than sweetness and charm.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Kaylee is about sensuality. Look at the way she eats a strawberry. Look at the way she caresses Serenity in the engine room.
When Mal first met her she was having sex (completely shamelessly) with the previous mechanic. She's not innocent.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Exactly. I forgot the strawberry- that's a great example.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Oh, I understand it fits her character now.
What I said was it didn't fit with what I thought before I saw that scene.
It's just one of those "getting to know you" moments that happens in every first season.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, okay. I misunderstood you; I thought you were holding that up as an example of inconsistent writing, and of a character not yet having gelled. By the time I saw Out of Gas I had a pretty good grasp of Kaylee's character already, so her having sex with the engineer didn't come as a surprise to me, but I can see how, to someone with a different read on her character up until that point, it would have.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
In fact the more I think about The Message, the stupider it gets. The whole point of the plan was to keep this guy safe (otherwise they could have just handed him over) and then they go and shoot him. That was a major screw up on someones behalf.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The Message is, hands down, my least favorite episode of Firefly.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I have no idea what my reaction to The Message was... I'll have to go dreg up that thread of mine.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
The message had some great lines.. especially concerning Jayne and his very fine hat...
But over all it's the weakest firefly =(
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Yes, I'll agree with that. The Message is my least favorite episode. It's confusing, and it's not particularly original. The best part, as Pixiest mentioned, is Jayne's hat.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
River trying to eat the ice-flail thing is pretty good too.
While The Message is weak compared to the rest of the season, it's still Firefly, which basically means that it's guaranteed to be better than most things on the air.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Yet again, I get something powerful from the very episode everybody doesn't like
Watch it again.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ok, just watched Serenity for the very first time. Ever. (My shiny new DVDs came with the mailman today.) After glancing over the recent posts (don't worry, I don't know anything else) I will say that the Kaylee dead scene worked for me. See, I guess I cheated. I knew she wouldn't be killed off. She's in the opening credits. She's on the cover of the DVDs. So I didn't even THINK about it when her hand dropped. So to me, I already got the joke when he told Simon she was dead. And it was even funnier when it cut to all of them laughing about it.
But that's just me.
I really like it. There's enough action, but not too much. I'm interested to find out more about River, and I've already made snap judgements about characters that I like and don't like as well. This all could change, and that's what's cool. I love Wash and Zoe.
I'm going to watch an episode every couple days to spread it out, but I think I'm surely hooked. (The only thing that's bugged me is the gratuitous 'hooker' shots, and the sponge bath montage. ) But I'm loving it.
I'll have to keep you all updated on my watching, like Teshi did. And then, once I've seen it all, I need to go read all the Firefly threads.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well Earendil18, you certainly aren't alone--I'm surprised to find so many people here agreeing with me about the episode. Usually, when The Message comes up, people seem to rave about it. Twinky, for example, counts it among his three favorite episodes, I believe (the other two being Heart of Gold and Objects in Space). Rather than telling us to watch it again, why don't you tell us what you found in the episode?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Narnia, in my mind the 'hooker' shots aren't gratuitous. Firefly very intentionally goes against a number of established television conventions in general, and those established in Star Trek in particular, going for a gritty realism that doesn't exist in the Star Trek universe (certain episodes of DS9 excepted).
For example, on the Enterpirse no one seems to pee--you never even see characters walking past a marked bathroom or anything. In Firefly, one of the earlier shots of Mal is of him buttoning up and folding his toilet back into the wall. Star Trek has a history of having characters who function as objects of sexual desire who are nonetheless almost completely chaste. If Star Trek's "sexy women" do have sex, its a very big deal. In Firefly, the first shot of the "sexy woman" character is of her...well...having sex. For money. I think it was a very deliberate move on Joss's part to introduce her that way.
I could make an argument for the sponge bath showing something about the presciousness of water on the ship or something, but honestly that scene has always struck me as being gratuitous too.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
So now tell me, how often does it show her bathing throughout the series? Just so I'm warned. (Just kidding. I'll live through it I suppose. )
I actually did notice that scene in the toilet with Mal and it was very striking. At first it was "Gee thanks for showing me that" and then I found myself noticing the bathroom fixtures and the relative 'normalness' of the lime buildup. It did serve to make the whole setting more realistic for me.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Actually, that's the only episode that includes shots of her bathing, so you're safe. Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Rather than telling us to watch it again, why don't you tell us what you found in the episode?
Wasn't sure who'd listen really... The last two miniessays ended the threads they were posted in, or were not acknowledged period.
The main thing that got to me was just the very "human" element that was Tracy. Blame it on his upbringing, his environment, his principles...whatever, the guy just didn't seem to make good decisions for himself. As Mal said in the episode he was stupid "in every way possible".
They say "ignorance is bliss" but not in Tracy's case. His ignorance and lack of experience ultimately cost him his very life.
I just found that very sad.
Humans make mistakes all the time it's how we learn. So why did Tracy have to die for making his? Is it merely because he didn't know better or he just never took the lessons to heart? I don't know.
Did Mal have a plan that would allow Tracy to safely get rid of those "Feds"? We never find out but I believe he did. However, because of a lack of good judgement and communication, Tracy doesn't find out until after it's too late.
And that's sad too.
How often have miscommunicated intentions been the source of damage in relationships between humans? Plenty, I think.
But even after endangering everybody on the ship, shooting the pilot, and attempting to take Kaylee hostage...Mal and Zoe are right there to be with him while he dies. They forgive him and bring him back to his family.
Just makes me shake my head and say "what a shame that had to go that way."
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ok, just watched The Train Job last night. I loved it! I feel like the series is starting to get more comfortable for me. It was a relief to have Mal acting a little more relaxed and I really appreciated the funny in this episode. Some favorite lines:
"We tried to get him to the infirmary but he was just....heavy."
"I was aiming for his head!"
And then the line Wash says to get them out of the bar brawl at the beginning. I love Wash (have I mentioned that?) I'm excited for them to focus on him some more.
I love the fights in this series because people get hurt! No one is immune (and I can see what Chris means about the movie being terrifying in this way) and they used their medic 3 times in this one episode. Very cool. Speaking of the medic, I love him to pieces.
Jayne's state of independence and "look out for #1" is scary for me. It makes me nervous, makes me tense, and I worry about what will happen in future situations if the captain's in trouble. I still can't see if there's any loyalty at all, and if there is, where exactly it lies. This adds such a funky dynamic to their crew that it makes it even more interesting....not to mention the fact that he's willing to sell River for money.
River is just short of annoying. I think her acting is the weakest of the lot, but that's understandable because she's also the youngest. I think I'll get to like her better if they focus on her some more. It was good to learn more about the society during this episode: Registered companions are very respected folks.
My sister made an observation after Mal and Zoe returned the stolen goods to the town. She said "This isn't the right way of life for him." I thought about that and wondered about it. Mal has a heart, a brain, and morals. He cares about other people (as does most of the rest of the crew). He's taken on two fugitives, endagered them all by returning stolen goods and killing a thug...and I'm sure there will be more. He's a nice guy. Very interesting.
Tonight is Bushwacked.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm so excited for you! I totally wish I could watch them with you.
Bev and I are re-watching them. We just barely watched Bushwhacked.
quote:This isn't the right way of life for him.
I think the idea is that the right way/place for him to live has been stolen by the megagov.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
I tend to watch The Message for the funny, more than for the plot.
"My food is problematic" is the single most used firefly quote in my vocabulary.
The whole opening scene, actually, with Jayne and the hat, and Kaylee and Simon. I really like Tracy's half-drunken slur, like he's a little taken by surprise by everything.
Ni!
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
quote:And then the line Wash says to get them out of the bar brawl at the beginning. I love Wash (have I mentioned that?) I'm excited for them to focus on him some more.
You get to see a lot more of Wash. He's my favorite character, I think.
Part of the reason I love the series is the insane amount of detail put into everything. The fold-out bathroom in Mal's room and the chinese characters on the wall. The pots and dishes, cubbies and cabinets, as well as the floral patterns on the walls of the galley are amazing. Every location on the ship and off is exquisitely detailed. Even the fact that there are no sound effects in the vacuum goes a long way with me.
I'm of the opinion that Firefly is the best science fiction ever to grace television, bar none.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I think most people on this thread agree with you about that last statement.
I don't think I would ever say that, just because the Scifi series that I have enjoyed are all so different from each other. I really can't compare them. You can't make me. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Wash is definitely the one character that I can identify with, just as Xander was in Buffy.
Perhaps that's why I've never been able to get into Angel as much -- there was nobody that I ever identified with.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
That's my problem in Angel, too. I adore Wesley, but he's not real enough for me to care what happens next.
Ni!
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
"Oh no! We're all doomed! Who's flying this thing!? Oh, that would be me." -- Wash (Ep 3) Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: I think her acting is the weakest of the lot, but that's understandable because she's also the youngest.
Not to be nit-picky, but I'm going to nit-pick: According to IMDB, Jewel Staite (Kaylee) is roughly 11 months her junior.
Once you get into the character's backstory, you'll probably feel differently about her as well. <spoiler> We learn in "Ariel" that, among other brain alterations, the part of her brain that allows her to ignore/filter emotions has been completely stripped. </spoiler>
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah, originally I thought the same thing about Summer's (River's- they all have such names) acting. But I think as the story progresses, she gets better and more into her role. As we learn more about her, we also allow her more leeway, actingwise. Also, she's not an actress but a ballet dancer.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That was just her character on Angel. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hardy har har.
I've never seen Angel.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Yay! Been watching, and I have some more thoughts.
Hey guess what? I love this show.
Bushwhacked -
I think I get to love Simon more and more and more. I love how he's so delightfully in character that I can see him loosening up little by little every episode. I was terrified for he and River and I yelped when I saw where they had put them to hide. Perfect. I've been pervertedly wondering what the Reavers look like...and it was even worse than I thought. ugh. And he wasn't even a full blown Reaver yet.
I also adore the Captain. I love that no matter what happens, he's unfailingly calm and cocky. I usually hate that in a character, but in him, I find it calming and exciting. I wonder "Is he just covering up anxiety really really well, or is he really just feeling ok about his ship being taken away from him and auctioned off?" I'm glad he thinks on his feet (even when he's handcuffed).
I giggled at Wash's description of his wife: "Where her legs meet her back...and above that." "Have you ever been with a warrior woman?"
Shindig -
I haven't seen this episode in people's lists of their favorites, but I have to say that I LOVED it. I guess there wasn't much action and it was kind of a silly episode in places, but it had a lot of things that make me thrill to my toes.
The conversation between Mal and Inara in his room when she's teaching him how to fight. When he looks at the floor and says "Don't stay." I can tell they have a history and I'm extremely curious to see what it is. I haven't been overly fond of her throughout the series, but I can tell that she means a lot to our lovely captain. I think it's in the scenes with her that we see what a good actor Fillion is. OSC talks about his characters 'orienting themselves around' someone they love, making that person their center of gravity. I can see that in Mal when he's near Inara. It could be my imagination, but I think it's wonderful.
Kaylee's conversation with all the men at the party was a high point for me. It made me happy to see her appreciated for who and what she is, even with a terrible dress on. I thought it was great that they showed that she could get her feelings hurt, and even by our dear captain. It wasn't just the two characters that were involved that struck me, but just the reality of stupid snide comments and how often they are NOT in our favorite TV series' (unless they're stupid sitcoms).
We've counted and Mal punches someone in every episode. He's killed someone in every episode but Shindig, and yet, in every episode he's done something that shows he's a softie.
Serenity - Takes on Simon and River Train Job - Gives the medicine back to the town. Keeps Simon and River. Bushwhacked - Lets them have the funeral, hides Simon and River. Shindig - Punches out a guy for Inara, sword fights a guy for Inara, buys Kaylee a froofy dress, asks Inara to stay, doesn't kill the guy at the end of the fight...
I'm sure there's more. Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Narnia, I'm getting a huge kick out of your reactions to each episode, even though I've seen them all at least half a dozen times each. It's like reacting to each show all over again. Keep it up!
I *love* "Shindig," and the writer of that episode, Jane Espenson (who did some great work on "Buffy" as well).
"Mercy is the mark of a great man... *stab!* Guess I'm just a good man. *stab!* Eh, I'm all right." -Proof that Mal rules
Edit: *MILDLY SPOILERY STUFF BELOW*
. . . .
Regarding River: as I say to most of the people I've introduced to the show... give River time. A lot of her character comes out through her interactions with the crew and the ship, so it takes a little while to get past the immediate impression of "weird psycho telepath girl." I also found the commentary for "Objects in Space" to be very illuminating about River (especially in light of the events of that episode).
[ July 14, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Tarrsk ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Bit of a spoiler there in your description of River, Tarrsk. Might be a good idea to take it out, for Narnia's sake.
Narnia, Shindig is a fantastic episodes; when I first saw it I'd have counted it among my favorites too, but there's just so much great stuff ahead of you that it is somewhat eclipsed.
I don't agree with you about Mal's motivation for having the funeral in Bushwacked; I take him at his word when he says that it's basically something to distract most of the crew and keep them occupied while Kaylee dismantles the trap.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Done. Narnia, just FYI, I did write my description of River to be as vague as possible, so if you only consider actual plot points to be spoilers, the stuff I wrote is safe.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I just "aquired" them, and JenniK and I watched MOST of teh first one.
Too bad I don;t know what I am doing when it comes to burning disks yeat...
Although I thin I may have solved it..at 2:20 am, after about two hours and 4 DVD-RW's...lol...
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Also for those who HAVE seen all the episodes, there is an absolutely side splitting gag-reel that you can download from FireflyFans.net. Just google it.
Mind you it is NOT the gagreel that is on the DVD, but a much lengthier 12 minute version with lots of gags.
For some reason they didn't put all that on the DVD set.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Thanks Earendil, I'll check it out.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
My favorite part of that gag reel is Wash in the interrogation room. he just goes on and on. It's hilarious. I figure they must have just sat him on set and let him improv.
Ni!
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
For Tarrsk (and anyone else who cares).
Safe -
This was the least engaging episode (so far) for me, but there was still a lot to love about it. I greatly enjoy the shots that the directors choose to use of Simon as he watches River enjoy things (like open space, dancing, speaking with a cockney accent). I also love that Simon is a good Dr. and that even though he'd been abducted, he got right to work. The scene with the berries was one of the most beautiful scenes that's ever been on television. Really. This look into how much he's given up and River's promises to get better...I got all choked up.
The lines at the end were so choice. "Looks like we arrived in the nick of time. What does that make us?" "Big Damn Heroes Sir." "Ain't we just?"
"The girl's a witch." "Yeah. But she's our witch and we're taking her back."
We just about died laughing. here's another example of the captain and his sweet disposition. They came back. (And Noemon, we continue to disagree about Mal's motivation for the funeral in Bushwhacked. He's resourceful and found a way to make it useful, but it seemed to me that he cared about how much it mattered to Book...and that he may have even hoped a little that there was some peace to be had after an attack like that.)
Our Mrs. Reynolds -
Fantastic. So funny, we laughed ourselves silly. I loved the scene with Saffron and Inara and the closing line of the episode was very choice. Do Inara and Mal EVER actually talk to each other in this series? We need to have a serious talk about their relationship.
Oh!! And "This is my very favorite gun" almost killed me I was laughing so hard. I've gotten over my twitchy Jayne-inspired discomfort. I can see that he is loyal to the captain and even the rest of the crew. Is that just the writers getting more comfortable with the character as time goes on? He most definitely didn't start out to be the comic relief. But now he very much is.
Best line of this episode: "But she was naked, and all....articulate." (complete with hand motions.)
Jaynestown -
Ok, so Safe is better than this one. My least favorite so far and I'm not sure why. But I really really want them to get Simon drunk some more so we can see what else will happen. We're all (including the crew) rooting for Kaylee on this one, but I'm glad she doesn't melt and get all sappy. I'm glad she calls him on his prejudices and I'm glad they actually had a talk. I think this is one of the first times that Simon's actually talked with anyone but River. I like it, he's becoming more 'real' to all of them.
Same thing goes for River. I'm glad she's talking more. I loved when Book said "Faith fixes us" or something like that. It reminded me of when River told Simon "You gave up everything to save me and you found me broken." I wonder if anyone else made the connection? I wonder if River does?
Out of Gas-
Man, it sucked to see the captain in such bad shape. I almost died when he dropped the part into the engine and had to bend down to get it. The sympathy was painful. I'm such a sap. I KNEW he was going to pass out before he reached that shiny red button. !!!
I've seen this episode grace many of your favorites lists and I can understand why. I don't know that it's one of my favorites yet, but I did love to see how the relationships began. I didn't buy the Inara/Mal story. I'm itching to see their backstory and I'm not getting it! And now I have to go back and read Chris' transcript of Wash and Zoe's wedding. Example #428 of Mal being a teddy bear: he talked to Kaylee like he was her dad all the way through the episode. I loved it. I love the way he takes care of her. I wish I could see some behind the scenes about the journey of the cast up to the making of this episode. It seems like they've hit a comfy place in their chemistry with each other and it just crackles on screen. I love it. (I don't remember which episode it was...Safe? When Mal grabbed Kaylee and kissed her on the head? I just melted. It's great.) That's part of what draws me to a good show, when I can see that the cast loves each other in real life.
We only planned to watch the rest of disk 2 for the weekend. We've started watching 2 a night instead, so I'm doomed. *shrug* What do you do?
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
My favorite gag reel moment is from the shooting of "The Message":
*AGAIN, SPOILERS BELOW*
. . .
The crew is gathered around Tracey's crate (coffin?), doing the mournful face thing, as the camera slowly pans to each of them in turn, starting with Nathan Fillion. However, once the camera leaves Nathan, he sneaks around and quietly stands beside the next set of crewmembers as the camera reaches them... and the next... and the next... all the while keeping a hysterically deadpan experience on his face. At the very end, the camera pans down to the open crate, revealing Nathan lying inside, being embraced by Tracey!
*END SPOILERS*
Narnia: Jaynestown works best if you view it as a combined character study of Jayne and a commentary on religion. It's actually much less comedic than most Firefly episodes (although there are still some side-splittingly funny moments). The episode brilliantly presents two views of religion: Book's perspective, in which faith is a source of healing and comfort, and the hero worship of the Canton mudders for Jayne, in which the symbol placed on the pedestal exists to give hope to the hopeless, rather than reflecting reality. The dialogue between Mal and Jayne at the end sums up the latter perspective succinctly.
Plus, the episode features the "Man They Call Jayne" song! When you get to disc 4, make sure to check out the easter egg of Adam Baldwin singing the song, complete with the line "The hero of Canton, the man they call... MEEEE!"
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Part of why I loved River was the creepy dissonance that came from her seeming so innocent and fragile and so dangerous and scary.
In that picture, she just looks tough and scary. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote: I didn't buy the Inara/Mal story. I'm itching to see their backstory and I'm not getting it!
I think the point is that they don't have one. The thing that may or may not exist between them is developing slowly.
Yes, The Message is one of my favourites, pretty much entirely for the last scene and the accompanying music.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I want a movie poster. I REALLY want a movie poster.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Twink, what's your take on Mal's motivation for the funeral in Bushwhacked?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Hmmmmmmm. I watched Bushwhacked last weekend, actually, and I was thinking about that when it happened. I'm not sure. I think maybe it was one part being nice to Book, one part wanting to throw Inara for a loop, and two parts diversion.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I agree with you on that, Noemon. I am re-watching the series right now, and in the first three (including trailer) episodes, Mal is pretty antagonistic against God "You're welcome on my boat, preacher. God ain't."
I didn't remember why he was doing it, but when Mal said "I don't know if there's peace to be had, but if there is, these folk deserve some of it," it stuck out like a sore thumb. It totally didn't make sense that the guy that just said that God ain't welcome on his boat would say that. When he explained why he was doing it (distraction), it made total sense.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I took throwing Inara for a loop as something he was happy to have done, and he was definitely fine with letting her interpretation of his actions stand, but I took that as being pretty secondary to keeping his crew and passengers from freaking out while a solution to a problem was worked out. I saw it as being an example of his being a good captain, in much the same way as I saw his different approaches to handling different crew members as evidence of his being a good captain (for example, taking a more fatherly tack with Kaylee, alpha male dominance displays with Jayne, that kind of thing).
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Exactly Porter. I think I acutally said "huh." the first time I heard him say the "if there's peace to be had" line, and "ohhh, okay" when he explained his motivation.
Edit--Pre-Serenity Valley Mal would have wanted the service for the "peace to be had" reasons, but post-Serenity Valley Mal wouldn't have, not that early in the character's story-arc.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Sure. Which is why it's so interesting that Early deals with Book in the same way he deals with Mal.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I saw it as being an example of his being a good captain
Exactly!
And then you can contrast that with the times that he's not such a good captain, like when he tells Kaylee that she'd be like a sheep walking around on it's hind legs in that frippery of a dress. >.<
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
That's not being a bad captain, that's being an inconsiderate person. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I hadn't thought about it before, but it seems to me that when Mal makes his comment about Kaylee in the dress, he's in the roll of a group of friends engaging in banter (he's the dominant one in that group too, of course, but in what group wouldn't Mal be dominant? He's kind of like Slash in that respect), rather than being in the roll of Captain. He is a very good captain, but isn't as good at being a friend.
Well, I'm not sure if I believe that or not, but it occurred to me.
Twink, I agree that there is a reason why Early deals with Book and Mal in the same way, but I'm not quite sure what the antecedant of "which" is in your sentence. What were you responding to there?
[Edit--or I could have just said it in one short sentence, the way twinky just did]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Perhaps Early, who Joss describes as being so empathetic as to be almost telepathic, is also some sort of captain?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's an interesting thought blacwolve. Makes me want to write an essay about personal excellence in the Firefly universe.
Oh, and I suppose that the Alliance is all about taking a single approach to everyone, which is the opposite of Mal's approach to leadership.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Pre-Serenity Valley Mal would have wanted the service for the "peace to be had" reasons, but post-Serenity Valley Mal wouldn't have, not that early in the character's story-arc.
And to my mind at least, hopefully never in the story-arc. It is my sincere and earnest hope that Mal not convert back to religion, ever. I would be sad if he did.
quote:Twink, I agree that there is a reason why Early deals with Book and Mal in the same way, but I'm not quite sure what the antecedant of "which" is in your sentence. What were you responding to there?
Book purports to be a nice man, wanting to do last rites for the dead, babysitting River, trying to explain faith to her, et cetera, but he knows an awful lot about very bad things. He could be (I can only assume "has been") as dominant as Mal if he chose to. Early is somehow aware of that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:And to my mind at least, hopefully never in the story-arc. It is my sincere and earnest hope that Mal not convert back to religion, ever. I would be sad if he did.
Of course. Mal is so freaking awesome that everybody wants him on their team. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I think they've set him up to be redeemed by love, not faith.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
So you're waiting for the LDS Mal, Porter? Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
No, I am not. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I think they've set him up to be redeemed by love, not faith.
That's not too surprising. I don't recall ever seeing faith portrayed as a redeeming value in any of Joss' stuff.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Faith in humankind definitely - but not faith in a superior being.
[Edit - and faith in demonkind, in particular circumstances.]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I think they've set him up to be redeemed by love, not faith.
That's not too surprising. I don't recall ever seeing faith portrayed as a redeeming value in any of Joss' stuff.
I don't like any of Joss' other stuff, so I wouldn't know. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Man I wish everybody had already seen Serenity, so that we could bring the events of that part of the story into this conversation.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
POSSIBLY A SPOILER FOR THE MOVIE: . . . . . . . . . . . Faith is a major theme in "Serenity."
Just sayin'.
[ July 15, 2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Serenity isn't out here for another 2 months.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Ugh. Chris, I was already nonplussed by the trailer. Could you take the "not really" out of there?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Done, although I didn't see how that was really giving anything away.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I didn't think it had anything to do with religion. I do think you're right when you hint that Book is a dominant figure...he commands a lot of respect from Mal, even if Mal doesn't (and won't ever) come to believe in God. What *I* saw wasn't an inkling of belief, but a respect for Book's beliefs. When he said "If there's peace to be had..." it was to show that he respected something that was important and real to Book. It was definitely a 'good captain' move, even if there were some ulterior motives. I think he might have done it even if there hadn't been other motivation.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
On another note, check out some of the best firefly icons/avatars that I've ever seen. My sister did 'em. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Narnia -- I stole one of your avatars, but I couldn't figure out how to comment on your site. Please don't hate me.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
s'ok. Laura will be delighted that you're using them. Which one did you like?
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
I was going to try to make a 'big damn heroes' one but gave up.
Ni!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I could get Nekkid. It made me laugh.
So many others seemed to be done by a woman who though that Mal was really hot. That's not what I look for in an avatar.
I mean Captain Tight Pants and Pursed Lips of Doom? I'll pass.
But I couldn't pass up Jayne's.
If I were doing avatars, I'd have as many for Jayne as you have for Mal.
[ July 16, 2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Okay, I read the first few posts and the last few and skimmed the rest of the thread because it's riddled with spoilers, but I just wanted to let y'all know. . .
Firefly will be on SciFi Friday on the SciFi channel at 7/3 Central.
How can you lose? Except Monk and BSG are on at the same time.
So, if that information has already been posted, sorry.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Kayla, you haven't watched Firefly yet? You shouldn't even be IN this thread, it'll ruin everything!
Porter, again, those avatars were of my SISTER's making. She does think Mal is incredibly hot and she's proud of her little catch phrases. I, on the other hand would not have spent all my time focusing on Mal (as nice looking as he is) because the point of avatars is to give a fair and funny representation of the series as a whole....yeah whatever. I would've done more of Simon myself. *ducks* Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Simon is one pretty, pretty man.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Done, although I didn't see how that was really giving anything away.
You weren't, it just makes me less excited about the movie. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
It shouldn't, because it tells you nothing, even if you think it does.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
It must tell someone something, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it. What's the point of a post that doesn't tell anyone anything?
Or is this one of those "It doesn't DO anything" posts? (Not that I have the faintest clue what that joke is about.)
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ok - New episode. I know you're all excited.
Ariel-
First off, River's slice at Jayne seemed so completely different than the way she's acted before. I know she' 'getting worse' and I know she's 'unpredictable,' but it seemed too sudden. Thoughts: could she see into the future and know that he would try to betray her and Simon?
Anyway, I got over that. I think the defining line in this episode is the one where Mal credits Simon with having a good criminal mind. I agree. I love watching Mal (in this episode and Out of Gas) be all protective of his crew. He was sharp and businesslike when it came to River's behavior, but he was equally protective of River and Simon when it came to Jayne.
I love watching Wash and Kaylee work together. They seem to be a flawless team (that little scene in Our Mrs. Reynolds when they're under the dashboard is one of my favorites). I loved seeing Simon in the role of "I know what you need to know, so listen to me." I loved seeing Mal, Zoe and Jayne rehearsing their lines; it was like a mini gag reel.
I think it's so interesting that River knows just how good of a Dr. Simon is. It's a good thing because I think Simon is the only person she would ever trust to help her, and it's not necessarily because he's her brother. Like I said, she knows he's good and it was fun to see that during his little life-saving stint during this episode.
This episode was one of the most tense that I've watched. As soon as Jayne's plot became known, I didn't breathe very much through the rest of the episode. It wasn't because I was worried about Simon and River...I knew they'd get out somehow. I was worried about what was going to happen to the crew now that this had happened.
It was perfect. Joss knew I was worried, he knew that I was completely furious at the thought that Jayne might get off without anyone knowing about it...and he let me feel that way until Mal hit him with the wrench. Perfect. I want Mal to be my captain. The crew can always trust him to 'handle' the wrinkles and flat out tears in their relationships. he cares about protecting the crew. Jayne was a threat, he almost let him get sucked out the door (after one of the best talking tos I've ever heard), and then let him stay when he was sure that Jayne was ashamed of what he had done.
Love it. Perfect.
War Stories is tonight.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I love the way Simon gets a chance to show off just how skilled he is in Ariel. Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Simon and River's relationship is one of my favorite aspects of the series, and "Ariel" is their showcase episode.
Narnia: Regarding the suddenness of River's latest craziness... Joss hints in the commentary to "Serenity" (the episode) that the organization known as Blue Sun, a massive conglomerate with hooks deep within the Alliance government ("a mix between Coca-Cola and Microsoft"), had something to do with River's incarceration at the academy. Now, take another look at the shirt Jayne is wearing when she slices him. "Looks better in red," indeed. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ah. That clears up a lot actually!
We watched War Stories and Trash tonight, but I'll have to write my thoughts later. War Stories was really really violent...I looked away a LOT.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
So I've finished the series. We watched The Message, Heart of Gold and Objects in Space in quick succession a couple nights ago.
We were kind of disappointed. I really enjoyed objects in space, but even it didn't seem to fit with the rest of the series. The other two were just mediocre episodes (and while I was pissed off at Mal for sleeping with that woman, I'm glad that something finally forced Inara to show some FEELING about him.)
Anyway, are these those "last three episodes" that I've heard everyon refer to as being the best of the series? They're the last on the DVDs, but I can't bring myself to say that they were anywhere close to being the best 3. Tell me I'm looking at the wrong three episodes.
But now I have to name MY top three...hm. Bushwhacked, Our Mrs. Reynolds, and Ariel. I think Ariel is my favorite. (Close runners up are Out of Gas and Safe.)
Now I've got to watch them all again.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Objects in Space is one of my favorite hours of television ever.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
The last three are my three favourites by far.
(Bushwhacked, Safe, and Out of Gas are three of my least favourites, along with The Train Job and Shindig. We agree on Ariel, though.)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Twinky, can you put your finger on what it is about Out of Gas that you dislike? It's probably in my top three or four episodes. There's one thing in it that seems like a plot hole to me, but other than that I love the episode.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
If I had to pick three favorite episodes I'd have a tough time doing it, but I'd probably finally pick Out of Gas, War Stories, and Objects in Space. Ariel and Our Mrs. Reynolds are close runners-up though.
It's easier to pick my three least favorite episodes. Those would be Bushwhacked, Safe, and The Message.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I'm not that big on Out of Gas because it has no reason to exist other than revealing backstory; I don't really think of it as having a plot to speak of. Also, I found Kaylee's fling in the engine room with the ship's first mechanic a little jarring (though amusing).
I like the episode and enjoy watching it (my absolute least favourite is Safe), but it still belongs in my "least favourite" pile.
Added: Also, keep in mind that "favourite episode" does not necessarily equate to "best episode." I love Heart of Gold and The Message even though I don't think that they're two of the best episodes in the series. They're my favourites. That's not the same thing. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I like 'Out of Gas'. I don't care that it doesn't advance the overarching plot or anything like that. It's just such a beautiful collection of scenes and sounds and colour. The actual real-time plot is unimportant to me except for the way it unfolds and unravels forwards and backwards. It's like one of those perfect moments when the sun slants just right and everything glows. It's only special when you experience it.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
"Out of Gas" is my favorite hour of television ever, period. I lurrrrves my character stories. Plus, as Teshi says, it's one of the most cinematically shot television episodes I've ever seen. It's beautiful to watch, masterfully edited, and both hilarious and heart-breaking.
My other favorites are "Objects in Space," "Our Mrs. Reynolds," and "Serenity (Parts 1 and 2)."
Least favorites are "Heart of Gold" and "Safe," both of which featured villains that were one-dimensional and stupid, far below the caliber I expect from the folks who came up with Badger and Saffron.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I love Safe for purely Simon and River reasons. I love the scenes that they have together and what we learn about how they're feeling about the whole situation.
I love Out of Gas too, mostly because the Captain admits to us that he couldn't live without his crew. They're his family, he loves them, and he wants them to be with him. That was enough to make me love that episode.
So tell me why you loved Heart of Gold twinky and why it's one of your favorites. I'd love to hear what it means to you. I didn't mind the Message as much as a few of you seem to, but it definitely has a different mood and feeling than the rest of the season. Can't put my finger on it.
I like to hear what everyone's favorites are though, it's cool. As far as my least favorites, those are tougher to pick because I really liked them all. I guess I'd say Jaynestown, Serenity 1, and Heart of Gold...but I still liked all three of them.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I love Heart of Gold because Mal finally opens himself up to somebody, because Inara is wonderful during the birth sequences and because she shows some genuine emotion (both there and when she breaks down) for once.
(Yes, the Mal-Inara arc is my favourite one.)
I love The Message because of the funeral scene. The music in that scene in particular, which was the composer's way of saying goodbye to the series.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Yeah, those are really great points about those episodes. I liked the funeral scene too, it really brought home that the crew of Serenity is a family.
I also think you're right about Inara. She really doesn't show emotion often...emotion just isn't part of her job. She was also always trying to hide her feelings for Mal. It was oddly satisfying to see her break down crying when she found out that Mal had slept with someone else. I was finally sure that she did feel something for him.
Was The Message supposed to be the last episode of the series? Do we know what the season finale would've been?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Again, these are not done by me. They're done by my sister. My hatrack conversion to Firefly resulted in the conversion of three more of my family members, and we've watched most of the episodes together. (That's why I usually say "we think" when talking about my reactions.)
Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
"The Message" was, I believe, the last episode that was shot. If it wasn't the last shot, it was very close because the cast and crew knew that the show was canceled at that point. So that last piece of music that plays as they present the coffin to Tracy's family is indeed a kind of elegy for the show as much as for the character.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I always thought that "The Message" was not the last episode shot but the episode on which they knew first that the series was dropped, hence the elegy at the end.
I believe the "never aired" episodes were actually filmed after that, although that makes very little sense economically now that I think of it... It could have been that everyone was on contract.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
"Objects in Space" is the last episode chronologically, but "The Message" was the last episode that the cast and crew shot. IIRC, the unaired episodes were shot before "Objects in Space" hit the air (another case of the infamous Fox Episode Order Switching), but that was the last episode other than "Serenity" to air.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
*bump* for JemmyGrove
This is funny to read. My opinions about favorite episodes have changed somewhat...heh.
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