I mean, sure, they have to have quick reflexes to drive at such a high speed. And I suppose, maybe being fit puts less of a load on the car, but Nascar drivers dont really have to do train like the professionals in other sports. Most of the stars in other sports start playing at a very young age -- but you can't start driving until you're around 16 years old.
I don't know. They seem more like sports entertainers to me, so they should come on the same channel as the WWF. I'd much rather watch Sportscenter on ESPN than cars going in a circle.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Ummm, not true on the age of sarting to drive. Alot of drivers started driving karts as kids in competitions.
As a fan of the sport, I call them athletes. Basically because I can't drive that long, that fast w/o having to pee. Much less having to do all that in a firesuit. They wear special shoes that protect them up to 400 degrees.
However, even truer the athletes are the pit crew. To have to fill a tank of gass, jack car up, change 2 tires, jack car up, change 2 tires, pull a layer of Lexan off the windshield, change tire pressure, and any other changes in 14 seconds or less......that is good.
However, that is just my opinion, and that of at least 1 million other spectators.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Atheletes . . . Since I have no idea what that word means, I have no idea. But athletes? Are you kidding me? In case you need a translation, that would be a resounding "No." Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Next thing you know we’ll be arguing if chess players are athletes.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
NASCAR drivers do train like the professionals in other sports, some even train harder. I would say if you have never driven above 150MPH for an extended period of time then you don't know the physical toll it takes on your body. Just like with other athletes, they make it look easy, but it is very hard to drive a car at that speed in traffic for hours. It takes a lot of endurance and strength, a lot more than you would think
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Yeah, I used to work at an auto dealership where the owner and several mechanics drove at Lime Rock with some frequency. In the beginning of the season they'd all come in complaining of their aches and go off to the gym (or just take the day off).
Human bodies really aren't that aclimated to resisting sideways g-forces. Also, if you've never tied to depress a high perfomance clutch you might be in for a surprise.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Although I'm sure several arguments can be made for drivers being athletes, I'm not sure driving long periods of time without peeing is one of them.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I'm not a NASCAR fan, by any means -- a sad state of affairs for someone who works at a Daytona Beach newspaper -- but I would consider them athletes.
They require endurance: they're in the car for hours, in 100+ degree heat, fighting their car every moment. They have to be hyper alert to everything going on around them and be ready at less than a second's notice, at all times, to react to changes in traffic at 180 mph speeds. I don't even want to know how they handle the 24-hour race.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Professional Chess players do train like the professionals in other sports, some even train harder. I would say if you have never had to think about 150 moves ahead for an extended period of time then you don't know the physical toll it takes on your body. Just like with other athletes, they make it look easy, but it is very hard to think at that speed with all those pieces for hours. It takes a lot of endurance and strength, a lot more than you would think.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
tough call. I don't classify them as Athletes myself. I love the sport and watch regularly but I just can't bring myself to call them athletes.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Wow... you watch chess? You might be able to call yourself an athlete by that alone.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It may take endurance and strength, but that doesn't make it a sport with athletes.
Getting through one of my 9-course meals sometimes takes endurance, strength, fighting natural inclinations, and can cause body aches. Does that make my husband an athlete? Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Next thing you know, people will start calling golfers athletes.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Most of the qualifications for athelete that people supporting NASCAR drivers as atheletes have proposed apply just as much to musicians as NASCAR drivers: training, endurance, etc..
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Cool. So people in the drum line are athletes?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I didn't say that. Of course, I also didn't say that NASCAR drivers are either.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'm not a fan of NASCAR, either. They've got to remain fit to give their cars a lighter load. Each car weighs the same, the difference will be what the driver wears and how much he weighs. G-forces? Concentration? The heat? Responsivenesa and reflexes? They aren't runners, but they are athletes.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I was about ready to say that your event needs to be in the Olympics to be considered an athlete if you do it. But then I realized that football isn’t in the Olympics and stupid curling is. That’s the right term right? The one where they shove the thing down the ice. Doing that certainly doesn’t make you an athlete.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
What's the definition of athlete? Can we establish that first?
Is physical fitness alone the criteria? Or is it participation in a recognized sport? Most people DO consider auto racing a sport. Therefore, the participants are athletes if you consider that the criteria.
If they're not athletes, then we need a different word for them. I don't know what it should be - but there should be something that denotes respect. In addition to the physical toll a 500 mile race takes, they also have to make split second decisions on the way their car is handling in order to relay the information to the crew chief. They must possess an uncanny knowledge of cars and engines. They can usually tell when a specific tire is losing air pressure just by the way the car handles a turn.
Unlike other sports, their season is from February until November, and during the short off season they are usually testing out new setups at wind tunnels and tracks. On top of that they have demanding schedules to meet the requirements of their sponsors, great athletes get endorsement contracts, and may do a commercial spot for Nike now and then, but NASCAR drivers live their sponsorships 24/7. Their livelihood and survival depends on it, if Kobe Bryant ticks off Nike he has plenty of other sources of income, but if Jeff Gordon causes Dupont to no longer want to do business with him he is out of business unless he can win a new sponsor.
I'm not a huge NASCAR fan, in that I don't watch the races every week but I do catch some occasionally. What I have seen though, causes me to respect the drivers and the crews for the job they do.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
My initial reflex answer was "No" just because I have no respect for Nascar whatsoever. Then I remembered that I don't have any special respect reserved for athletes, so sure call 'em athletes.
No, I don't think driving that speed for that long is easy and I'm sure I couldn't do it (at least not well). But I do think it's one of the most boring spectator sports ever.
I'll second the comment about the pit crews rocking. That's skill, strength, and speed.
What's a sport? They showed Magic: The Gathering championships on ESPN2. Are professional poker players athletes?
--Enigmatic
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
So when I drove to work this morning I was doing an athletic event? Cool! And when I drive to the beach for 12 hours straight I’m doing a marathon in the sport of driving. Excellent.
I also think the sport of sleeping should be considered for Olympic medals. Different events including longest sleeper, can sleep though the most, and overall best sleeper. Fun!
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
I think Belle is correct. It takes some significant physical ability and training to do what they do each week. Think about the last time you were in a "Tilt-A-Whirl" at a carnival. How hard is it to stay upright and focused during the turns? Now consier doing that for 500 miles in an afternoon every week. I think that would take some serious athletic ability.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Jay, you've definitely got some nice elitism what it comes to athletics. What do you definte as athletic?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
While I believe that most Nascar drivers are Athletic, and could probably pound most of us into the ground in a fist fight, I think the one unsaid qualification of an athlete is that they win or lose an athletic competitions mostly based on their physical skills.
The Car in Nascar is more of an athlete under that definition than the driver. While its true that a driver who can't hold his steering wheel because his body isn't up to the pressures of driving is going to loose, it isn't likely that a driver in adequate physical health but with a superior car is going to loose to a driver in superior physical health, but only an adequate car.
As far as the Nascar busters, don't confuse driving in your Airconditioned Stereo Equipped, Plush bucket seats on your 20 minute drive with what the Nascar drivers go through every day.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Athletic? I like Dan’s definition of physical skills.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
So what sports do you approve of?
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I don’t not approve of any sports.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
Well here's a question: how much variation is there between cars? Because with little variation in the fitness of the cars, it falls primarily on the skill of the drivers to make the difference. I think Dan's argument is beside the point, here.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
My understanding is that small-track racing depends much more on skill than car, and large track racing is close to a 50-50 mix (because the cars can reach speeds where the vacuum traction effects systems really pay off on well-designed cars).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Jay, have you ever curled? Curling takes some serious skill, exertion, and work. It is at least as much a sport as hockey. Or maybe cricket.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
So does horseshoes
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Now Dan has put forth a definition I can agree with as well. I like the "win or lose based on your own ability" definition. However, does that apply to team sports? Because no matter how good you are, you can't win a football game by yourself. A driver can't win a NASCAR event without a car, but then a car can't win the event without a skilled driver either. If you don't think the driver makes a difference, have you ever seen a situation where the driver was subbed out, because one was sick or injured? Same car, but the sub rarely does as well as the regular driver. The guy who replaced Davey Allison when he was killed didn't win, and Davey was a championship driver in the same car.
Equestrian eventing - is that a sport? After all it's the horse who does all the jumping. But if you put me up on a championship, Olympic quality horse I doubt I could get out of the paddock much less win anything.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I don’t think we were defining what qualifies as a sport, we were defining weather participants in certain sports were athletes
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: But I do think it's one of the most boring spectator sports ever.
you have NO Idea what you're missing. I used to look down my nose at NASCAR and its fans. Then I dedcided to watch a few races in order to better arm myself for tearing it apart. I watched with people who were fans. Now, it's 6 years later and I'm HOOKED. Thoroughly. We ususally attend at least one race a year, and have a Daytona and Bristol party at the house. For what it's worth, I have a college degree - double major and double minor, and I have an excellent job as a department admin at a medical school.
So many people associate NASCAR with rednecks, hicks, beer guzzling potbellied bigots and driving in a cirlce, and never bother to learn anything else about it. For a group that's so well educated and open, this is certainly a nasty little fallback to stereotyping. If you don't know what it TAKES to do what they do, then don't make assumptions.
Sorry for the rant - it just chaps my ass to see a knee-jerk reaction like this, esp here!
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
quote:it just chaps my ass
You might want to get that looked at. Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
I think that we're assuming that someones skill in an activity qualifies them to be called an athlete, but only in the context of "Do they complete in a sport?" Now, the "Is it a sport?" question is much stickier.
I personally don't believe that car racing, horse racing (except for the horse), curling, interpretive dance, etc. are sports. Some people do, and to them I say, "Our disagreement has escalated to the level of a sport."
Driving a car, no matter how good you are, doesn't qualify you to be an athlete. Given the time, money, and effort, I think that a lot of people could drive close to the same skill level.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
quote: Given the time, money, and effort, I think that a lot of people could drive close to the same skill level.
well hell, given all the Time Money and Effort they've spent to get where they are, one could do anything...
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I’d almost say most competitive activities could be considered a sport. Weather it’s athletes that participate in these competitions is another story.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
So Jay you favor a definition of athlete that is other than "one who participates in a sport." Right?
The issue of what is a sport is a thorny one. Is dance a sport? I've seen first hand what dancers go through to get their bodies in peak condition and how they train years to perfect certain moves. And whether or not you're successful in dance is solely dependent on your own ability and the amount of training you've put in and your body's fitness. Sounds a lot like what elite basketball, baseball, or football players go through to be successful too. What about gymnasts? Are they athletes?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
IMO, to be a sport, there must be competition. Therefore, ballet is not a sport (although it is extremely athletic).
I also think that gymnastics, diving, ice skating, dance, etc. are not sports. All of these are solo (or team) demonstrations that are not competitive until you bring judges in to artifically create competition.
I say that gymnastics is a demonstration and not a sport.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Well said Gryphe.
Not that I'm a NASCAR fan, nor am I likely ever to become one, but the observation is well made.
-Trevor
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
What about competition against other gymnasts?
Granted, not the same kind of competition as football, boxing or Karate but the competition is still there.
-Trevor
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
So is dance a sport when it is competitive? Almost every dance studio has competition teams that compete against other studios. Is it a sport when there is a winner and loser?
Funny that gymnastics doesn't make it to the level of sport in some people's minds. It's only one of the oldest athletic "demonstrations" (to use your term) in existence.
I would firmly assert that my 7 gymnast daughter is more athletic than the typical kid who plays soccer or football or baseball. And yes, I consider what she does to be a sport and to be one of the more difficult sports to be successful in that there is.
Of course, whether or not something is a "sport" is not really all that important. Dance for example, I don't consider a sport - I consider it an art form, which to me is even higher praise.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Dunno bout Nascar drivers, but I know F1 drivers have to maintain a very high state of fitness, gym workouts, etc.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gryphonesse:
quote: Given the time, money, and effort, I think that a lot of people could drive close to the same skill level.
well hell, given all the Time Money and Effort they've spent to get where they are, one could do anything...
I dont think so. Some people are naturally gifted - plenty of professional athletes grew up in poor neighborhoods.
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
It's not a sport.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Gryph, all I'm missing by not watching Nascar is the occasional spectacular crash. IF I were going to watch any sort of auto racing, it would be something involving a more varied track than Nascar, preferably offroad with jumps. Like those dune buggies with the huge fins on top, those things are entertaining. What's the racing that's just ding-ding-ding-GO! and the track's just a straight stretch? Skinny cars with huge back tires? If I happen to see that when I'm flipping channels it usually holds my interest for a few minutes. I think Nascar is boring and there is no magic amount of it I'd have to watch to suddenly "get it" and be hooked.
I'll also freely admit that many of my hobbies seem boring to people who aren't into them. D&D is sitting around a table with books and paper. I've had people say it seems about as much fun as doing homework. To each their own.
--Enigmatic
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
*SNORT*
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
I'd rate Nascar drivers as athletes ahead of golfers.
Of course, for my money, the best conditioned athletes in the world are ballet dancers.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by kaioshin00: I don't know. They seem more like sports entertainers to me, so they should come on the same channel as the WWF. I'd much rather watch Sportscenter on ESPN than cars going in a circle.
Although we all know that professional wrestling is fake, the wrestlers themselves are definitely real athletes (well, most of them, anyway). Certainly more so that Nascar racers. So I wouldn't put them in the same category.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Or swimmers, or ice scaters, or gymnastics.
All of them are incredably fit and strong.
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
kaioshin00: i <3 nascar
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
I wonder what golfers do in the off season.
[ June 07, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: kaioshin00 ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Gymnasts have the most incredibly fit bodies. I've always been impressed by gymnastics.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
There seems to be some consensus that there is a difference between "athlete" and "athletic," but the is no clear consensus on what is "sport."
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Sport is anything that pits someone directly against someone else in a competition. Ping Pong is a sport. Anything that pits someone's achievement against someone else's achievement is a game. Golf is a game.
To make golf a sport, there needs to be a well-padded person at the cup with a baseball bat, ready to defend.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"Athletic" merely denotes someone who has trained physically for a competitive purpose. "Athelete" is a subjective description.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I knew me driving to work was a sport! Now get out of my way! Move! Dang slow pokes…..
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Sport is anything that pits someone directly against someone else in a competition. Ping Pong is a sport. Anything that pits someone's achievement against someone else's achievement is a game. Golf is a game.
To make golf a sport, there needs to be a well-padded person at the cup with a baseball bat, ready to defend.
But by that definition many video games are "sports", especially in this era of online play. Does that mean that chess counts as a sport as well?
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Video games became a sport in the late 90s when Quake champions started getting paid for product endorsements. There! That's my new definition of athletes: You compete in something (sport, race, game, whatever you want to call it) and you get paid for product endorsements because of said competition. Nascar drivers are atheletes by this definition.
Oh, I suppose that should be "you or your peers can get paid for product endorsements." We can still count the less-popular competitors as athletes even if they haven't done their own endorsements yet.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
According to Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary an athlete is "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina".
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Note the dictionary does not specify to what degree any of those requirements must be met.
-Trevor
Posted by genius00345 (Member # 8206) on :
Clearly defining athlete, athletic, game, and sport are hard.
Why should games and sports be two separate entities? Why can't they overlap?
For instance, traditional 'sports' like football, basketball, and baseball are also games in a sense.
But they don't HAVE to overlap -- like I wouldn't consider playing 'Mario' a sport.
The dictionary definition of 'athlete' earlier in this thread seemed pretty accurate, IMO.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
According to dictionary.com a sport is "an organism that shows a marked change from the normal type or parent stock, typically as a result of mutation". Normally in Nascar, if you want to find mutations, you have to look in the stands.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I was going to stay out of this because most perspectives on whether someone is an athlete and what is a sport are subjective. I think that people are free to believe that NASCAR is boring, even though I find it exciting. It doesn't bother me (until I am berated for being a hick, which I'm not, or something else just as stupid). But I will get into this because I think they are athletes. Certainly not to the level of football, soccer, hockey, baseball, or basketball, but they are athletes, in my opinion. I agree with Chris Bridges:
quote:They require endurance: they're in the car for hours, in 100+ degree heat, fighting their car every moment. They have to be hyper alert to everything going on around them and be ready at less than a second's notice, at all times, to react to changes in traffic at 180 mph speeds. I don't even want to know how they handle the 24-hour race.
It certainly requires years of finely tuned training, both mental and physical. I drove 46 miles in heavy traffic on the freeway today, in an automatic, without reaching 70 MPH. I felt drained, probably because of the mental focus I needed. Drivers go much faster, for much longer, in much hotter cars, and in manuals that can't be too easy to shift, especially when they do it 1000+ times a race. I can't do this. Athletes or not, drivers are real, tough professionals.
Jay, drop your insults and actually try racing something (I suggest Magic Mountain). There is a big difference between driving competitively and driving on the street. You might understand this if you try it.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I suppose the reason I don't like to consider NASCAR a sport is the huge impact their car makes. The greatest athlete will still be great regardless of the bat, cleats, ball, whatever he uses. Put a race car driver in a slightly substandard car and not only is he no longer the best, odds are he can no longer even compete.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
So...horseman are considered athletes in horsemanship competitions. They're even given medals for it, in the Olympics...so, why shouldn't competition drivers (not only NASCAR. F1 and other leagues too)?
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Ok, so my first minor argument was weak. So what? However, as tired as I am of this argument, I stand by my drivers. Dodge Team One: Jeremy Mayfield and Kasey Kahne. I still wear my old Bill Elliott jacket. I support the event as a sport and do maintain that the drivers are athletes, although I will willingly let others disagree. Why? Because it is like a Harley Davidson. If I have to explain, you will never understand.
Posted by Dr. Evil (Member # 8095) on :
Driving of any competetive kind is a sport and the drivers are incredible athletes. That being said, I am not a NASCAR fan, rather I prefer Rally driving. But I have driven in races, I golf, I played competetive baseball and ice hockey too. Hockey was by far the most physically demanding, but golf is by far the toughest since it requires such precision. I have worked up a sweat playing all of these and have found myslef physically challenged by all of these.
I dare anyone to come out with me and play 18 holes and tell me that golfers are not athletes and that golf is not a sport. You walk 4-5 miles carrying 25 extra pounds on your back which is something many people couldn't do alone. But then to play a number of different shots under all kinds of circumstances, it is a challenge.
And the best part is, ALL OF THESE ARE FUN! Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
Originally posted by Stan The Man:
quote:Ok, so my first minor argument was weak. So what? However, as tired as I am of this argument, I stand by my drivers. Dodge Team One: Jeremy Mayfield and Kasey Kahne. I still wear my old Bill Elliott jacket. I support the event as a sport and do maintain that the drivers are athletes, although I will willingly let others disagree. Why? Because it is like a Harley Davidson. If I have to explain, you will never understand.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But athletes? Are you kidding me? In case you need a translation, that would be a resounding "No." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)