Spoilers here... but then again, if you haven't seen this movie yet, you're living under a rock.
- The final scene, where Obi-Wan has delivered a baby Luke Skywalker to his aunt and uncle, one of the suns of Tatooine is setting, while the other is rising... symbol of Anakin's star setting and Luke's/Leia's rising?
-The two climactic battle scenes:
While Anakin almost literally "descends into hell" on Mustafar, Yoda and Sidious fight in the very symbol of democracy, the Senate. Sidious begins throwing senatorial chairs at Yoda, literally "throwing the Senate in Yoda's face". Yoda responds by reversing the path of the chairs and throwing the Senate, i.e. democracy, right back into Sidious's face.
On Mustafar, once Obi-Wan has jumped from the river of fire onto the ground, he calls out to Anakin that the latter cannot defeat him because Obi-Wan has the "high ground"... not only literally, as we see when Obi-Wan chops off Anakin's legs, but also metaphorically... a moral high ground.
-Birth and rebirth: as Leia gives birth to twins in a warm hospital wing, Darth Vader is being assembled in a very different hospital wing; two births of sorts.
-When Sidious rescues Anakin from the lava, Sidious's gesture and stance is eerily similar to that of Obi-Wan Kenobi when Obi-Wan rescues Luke in Episode IV... right down to the robes the two men oare wearing and their postures. Sidious is also strangely fatherly to Anakin here as well as throughout the course of the movie, which brings me to this:
When Sidious, in his guise as Chancellor Palpatine, talks to Anakin at the opera/dancing tapeworm show, he mentions the story of Darth Plagueis (Darth Plagueis? General Grievous? Remarkably obvious monikers...). In it he says that Darth Plagueis knew how to cheat death, and how to create life through use of the Force. Sidious also says that Plagueis's apprentice murdered him in his sleep after learning everything Plagueis knew. That apprentice, I found out later, was Sidious himself (obviously). If that's the case, then it is quite possible that....wait for it... Darth Sidious gave birth to Anakin Skywalker. Think about it. Anakin's mother doesn't understand his birth as there is no father; an "immaculate conception" of sorts. The Jedi believe that Anakin was given birth by the Force, somehow, but don't know for sure. Sidious's giving birth to Anakin through conceiving him in the body of a poor slave on Tatooine would be perfect for him. He would be ensured of creating a child with great force potential, and also, that same child would live the perfect life for being corrupted by the dark side. Having been born a slave and subjected to cruelty and torment on the harsh desert planet of his birth, young Anakin made a perfect target for the dark side to corrupt - and Sidious knew that those were the factors he had to create.
Thoughts?
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Interesting theory, that last one there. We can only wonder how Lucas resisted having a light-saber fight between Palpating and Anakin, culiminating in Palpatine cutting of Anakin's hand and saying, "Anakin, I am your father."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Of course, in all likelihood, Sidious could concieve a child the natural way without the mother being aware of what happened.
Posted by Dread Pendragon (Member # 7239) on :
quote: Of course, in all likelihood, Sidious could concieve a child the natural way without the mother being aware of what happened.
GHB? I bet a guy could get some from Mr. the Hut.
After Anakin participates in the death of Samuel Jackson, he really had taken away his other options. If the movie showed him thinking, commenting on this realization, THEN thinking about how he needed the dark side to save Padmei (sp?) it would have been a more convincing turn to the dark side.
Loved the movie though. I thought visually it was great. I just kept scanning the full screen to take in as much as I can.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: - The final scene, where Obi-Wan has delivered a baby Luke Skywalker to his aunt and uncle, one of the suns of Tatooine is setting, while the other is rising... symbol of Anakin's star setting and Luke's/Leia's rising?
How is it that you can see two stars on opposite horizons? From what I remember, both stars are setting, in a scene reminiscent of Episode IV where Luke is looking off into the distance wishing he could leave home.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Of course, in all likelihood, Sidious could concieve a child the natural way without the mother being aware of what happened.
But he was also trying to fool the Jedi into believing Anakin was the chosen one—or perhaps he was unwittingly fulfilling the prophecy while thinking he was twisting it to his own ends.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"Darth Sidious gave birth to Anakin Skywalker."
This has been discussed elsewhere. But I think it kind of undermines the "prophesy" thing. It was supposed to be that the midichlorians caused Shmi (sp?) to conceive in order to bring balance to the force. Palpatine wouldn't have wanted that.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
Anakin was the chosen one, In the end he actually does return balance to the force.
Posted by antihero (Member # 8156) on :
Well, Jon Boy, Anakin did indeed kill the Emperor in the end and restore balance to the Force. Glenn, They weren't on opposite horizons, but one sun was moving downward and the other was coming out.
And Palpatine creating the Skywalker lineage doesn't undermine the prophecy. The Force could very well have used Palpatine as a tool in order to destroy him. In the end, everything worked out. Who are we to say that it wasn't the Force's doing?
The death of Mace Windu pissed me off like nothing else in that whole movie. Mace Windu was always my favorite Jedi, and to die to such a low trick, especially after being the only person to ever have defeated a Sith master in combat, blew my mind. Yoda couldn't even defeat Sidious, Mace did. And yet, he was killed by treachery... argh.
Who's everyone else's favorite Jedi?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:or perhaps he was unwittingly fulfilling the prophecy while thinking he was twisting it to his own ends.
Yep. Kind of like, oh, Voldemort, SkyNet, and every other villian who tries to stop destiny.
quote:Yoda couldn't even defeat Sidious, Mace did. And yet, he was killed by treachery... argh.
Am I the only one that thought Palpatine was totally faking and let Windu seem to get the upper hand?
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I felt Palp was holding back trying to coerce Anakin to get into the fight. As soon as Anakin hit Windu, Palp let him have it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
But Windu + Yoda and the thing would have been over before it started.
Next time someone wants to go confront a Sith Lord who has pulled the wool over the Jedi's eyes for 10 years, they need to bring all the big guns at once.
Posted by antihero (Member # 8156) on :
Palpatine didn't want to get his face scorched off.
It's quite possible that Palpatine knew he would use the battle with Mace Windu as the final blow to get Anakin on his side. However, I don't think he was losing on purpose. Mace is, literally, the greatest Jedi swordsman that ever lived, because he channels the anger and power of the dark side for his own good intentions through his aggressive and reckless fighting style.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
His lightning died, he was out of power. Suddenly he goes off like a nuclear bomb yelling "UNLIMITED POWER." Seriously, I'm pretty sure he was faking.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
""Darth Sidious gave birth to Anakin Skywalker."
This has been discussed elsewhere. But I think it kind of undermines the "prophesy" thing. It was supposed to be that the midichlorians caused Shmi (sp?) to conceive in order to bring balance to the force. Palpatine wouldn't have wanted that."
What if Anakin wasn't the chosen one? What if it was Luke?
Posted by antihero (Member # 8156) on :
Yoda did admit that the Jedi could have misread the prophecy. It could be Luke. I much prefer to think it's Anakin... that Anakin finally goes back to the light in the end is... simply... heartwarming... *sniff*.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"Am I the only one that thought Palpatine was totally faking and let Windu seem to get the upper hand? "
Must be. Antihero beat me to it, but I the effect of the battle on Sideous' face shows he was having a really rough time of it.
"They weren't on opposite horizons, but one sun was moving downward and the other was coming out."
If that's true then someone really messed up in the accuracy department. Not that Star Wars is really scientifically accurate, but two suns can't move in different directions. The only way for a sun to rise is to be on the horizon the planet is turning towards, and the only way for a sun to set is for it to be on the opposite horizon. They'd have to be 180 degrees apart.
Similarly, the full moon must rise as the sun sets.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"What if Anakin wasn't the chosen one? What if it was Luke? "
The tip off to the prophesy was the virgin birth thing. Luke had a mother.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Then again, a Republic which allows slavery and subjugation of natives ain't exactly balanced. Neither are the Jedi propping up that government.
Problem with prophecies is that they are subject to interpretations. Balance to the Force = the 2 Jedi + the 2 Sith Which is what was left at the end of RotS.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Of course Anakin could have brought balance to the force by being Luke's father. In effect, it took both Anakin and Luke to do the whole job.
Posted by antihero (Member # 8156) on :
Very interesting aspectre.
Wow. Very, very interesting.
You're right.
...wait a minute. That would imply that George Lucas is actually smart. That his story involved that level of sophistication is impossible. I've read of and about the man - he can't be that smart.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The tip off to the prophesy was the virgin birth thing. Luke had a mother.
Did they ever say this was part of the prophecy? We never got to hear the full text. I thought it was just super-high midichlorian count.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Then again, a Republic which allows slavery and subjugation of natives ain't exactly balanced.
Except that the Republic had no control of the Outer Rim, which is where Tatooine is located. Remember Padme's reaction to the fact that Anakin's a slave?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Padme thought it was alright to subjugate JarJar's people until she needed their help.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"Did they ever say this was part of the prophecy?"
In episode I that was what tipped Qui-Gon off to the whole prophesy thing.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I like your theory Antihero. I had similar thoughts of him somehow being his father. I had been waiting for somehow Sidious to use that he was Anikin’s father to be the final straw in turning him to the dark side, but he didn’t need it. I like your theory of him making the force conceive in her. That would allow for the greatest possible meticlorines (sp). Very cool. That would make Luke the heir to the Emperors throne. Fun!
Oh, and he did bring balance to the force both times. There was two Sith left and two Jedi left at the end of III so balance in the force. And the end of Jedi there was only Luke left with Anikin destroying the Sith for good.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"Padme thought it was alright to subjugate JarJar's people until she needed their help. "
I didn't get this impression. They lived in two entirely separate worlds.
I did get the impression that the humans felt superior to the gungans, but they didn't seem to exploit that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: That his story involved that level of sophistication is impossible.
It's not all that sophisticated, you realize.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't know how balanced that is. The two Sith are in control of the Galaxy, the two Jedi are in hiding.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
But it said nothing of who held power. It only said "balance of the force."
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
2 Jedi = 2 Sith Balance in the force
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I kinda took the "balance to the force" thing as meaning Anakin killed everyone on both sides, and had two children that were raised to adulthood ignorant of both sides.
So, essentially, he brought down the Jedi Order *and* the Sith, while providing the Universe with a pair of Force-adepts (one male and one female) who start the cycle of Force-adept life over once again.
Posted by MKellar (Member # 8133) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Am I the only one that thought Palpatine was totally faking and let Windu seem to get the upper hand?
Mace was totally owning Palpatine before Anakin even showed up. Palpatine was only able to use his "unlimited power" to lay waste to Windu when his lightsaber (and arm) were no longer repelling that power into his face. If Anakin didn't show up, Windu would have continued to repel the force lightning until he eventually got close enough for the slice and dice. Either way, Windu unquestionably won the battle of the lightsabers with Sidious.
Posted by Janger (Member # 4719) on :
the prophecy says that the chosen one will bring PEACE and balance to the force. I guess Anakin only fulfilled one-half of it unless you consider the murder of younglings and the entire jedi religion as peace. What I don't get is how Obi-Wan transforms from a 30 something in episode 3 to a 60 year old hermit in episode 4.
Posted by Janger (Member # 4719) on :
And furthermore, I think Palpatine was definitely faking it. No person who's being truly electrocuted and being in pain, could instantly recover with a maniacal laughter and have enough strength to gather enough force to shoot a man out a building. I think his acting was necessary for anakin to turn to the darkside
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
No, if you read the novelization of ROTS it becomes even more clear that Palpatine wasn't faking it. Windu took advantage of his tiny mistakes to beat him in the lightsaber duel, and when Palpatine used the lightning on him, he was probably the only Jedi alive who could turn that lightning back on its user, because, as has been mentioned, Mace Windu actually uses the Dark Side when he fights without going over to it. However, as soon as Anakin enters the room Palpatine knows he has won, because he knows Anakin trusts him more than the Jedi. He may have faked expending his last little bit of energy, but he was well and truly beaten, and if Anakin hadn't ahown up, he would have died right there.
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
did Windu die? At first viewing, I dismissed that "soap opera" tactic, but I must admit, I'm kinda curious. We know Yoda and Obi-wan went into hiding, but what about Mace?
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I took Obi-Wan to be around 20 in Episode I 30 in Episode II and 40 in Episode III Anakin 8 in Episode I 18 in Episode II and 28 in Episode III. At least close to those areas.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
Ep III took place only three years after Ep II, so Anakin would have been about 21.
I figure living out in the desert for 20 odd years while hiding from an entire Galactic Empire and watching out for some kid who has the entire fate of the galaxy on his soldiers would wear someone a little thin. All that stress could very well have prematurely aged Obi-Wan.
Posted by Dread Pendragon (Member # 7239) on :
I had trouble seeing Samuel Jackson as a noble kind of a Jedi. If Lucas gave him lines like, "Hey, believe me, you don't want to make me use the force!" that would have sounded more like him. Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Windu wasn't the only one who could repel Sith lightning. Yoda did it against Dooku and Sidious, and he did it with his bare hands, without a lightsabre. Or do you mean Windu was the only one who could repel it back onto the user as a weapon, since Yoda only repelled it into the wall?
How come Luke didn't get his face deformed after being shocked by the Emperor for what seemed like 5 minutes straight?
And this has bugged me the most. How the heck could Yoda, Windu, and all the other Jedi sit 5 feet from Palpatine for 10 years and never get even an inkling of a feeling like "Gee, it kind of feels dark and evil in here." I mean, Yoda could feel all the Jedi getting killed lightyears away, but he could not sense at least some kind of evil when staring straight at Palpatine's face all the time. Plus, wasn't Luke able to sense Vader's presence in RotJ?
Or does the dark side include some power to completely block out anyone else sensing the dark side at all?
Yoda said the dark side wasn't stronger when Luke asked him, but does anyone else get the feeling that the Jedi almost always get their butts kicked by the Sith? In fact, a Sith's main sales pitch is that they can "achieve a power greater than any Jedi." Or are Sith just really good car salesman Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote: And this has bugged me the most. How the heck could Yoda, Windu, and all the other Jedi sit 5 feet from Palpatine for 10 years and never get even an inkling of a feeling like "Gee, it kind of feels dark and evil in here." I mean, Yoda could feel all the Jedi getting killed lightyears away, but he could not sense at least some kind of evil when staring straight at Palpatine's face all the time. Plus, wasn't Luke able to sense Vader's presence in RotJ?
Yoda is the Pope of the Jedi... he is special.
One thing is that not even Yoda was alive during the time when the Sith were many and rampaging across the Galaxy. They had no first hand experiance with it. Second is that Palpatine was the greatest Dark Jedi Master of all time. He was basically Sauron. Palpatine and the Dark Side had blinded the Jedi Masters and their prescience...something they had grown very dependent on. Without the ability to see the future they were really up a creek, lost in their dogmatic rituals.
And I doubt that Palpatine would have come to the capital planet, seat of the Jedi Order, without learning how to cloak himself. Yoda and Windu actually talked about maybe telling the Senate in Episode II that they had lost the power to read the future. They foolishly decided against it.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I cannot believe the "balance to the force" refers to numbers. That's too stupid.
Personally, I believe that the Force is what it is- an amoral energy field that is created by life and (per the prequels) is made accessible by midichlorians. It also has some sort of destiny componant/will to it, and this can be communicated (again, mediated by midichlorians) to force users as well.
Now, there are two channels to the Force.
1) When you are at peace, when you are calm, etc 2) Through rage and anger, etc
The second method is, as Yoda said, 'easier, quicker, more seductive' to accomplish and the power you receive (and vent) seems adictive. Sort of feedback loop.
And there are a couple ways to use the force.
1) USE it, as a tool, to do whatever YOU want. 2) LISTEN to it, be guided by it and be in harmony with it (and presumably, all life)
The Sith obviously USE the force, but Palpatine was also adept at listening to it's inclinations and/or indications of what is/will hapen and using that. And obviously, they tap into the force through negativity.
The Jedi, however, from what I saw, have primarily become users of the force. They used it to maintain the status quo, all the while placing their hopes (and the responsibility) for balancing the force on the Chosen one. Thus, to a certain extent, by abdicating any role they might play, the inbalance increases.
The balance, I believe, refers to how one uses/is guided with the force. Listening and being guided by the force is as important (and on a galactic scale more important) than using the force to block blaster fire or enhance your jumps. It allows for passion and fire, an acknowledging of that part of life. For example, by not teaching Anakin how to deal with loss (their advice was basically a preemptive cutting off- leave-before-they-have-a-chance-to-leave-you kind of thing, and their entire lifestyle is this way as well) they created more and more tools for someone who based his force use on passion to use.
Anakin (and later, Luke, through his new Academy) basically performed a 'system reset' that enabled force users to use the entire force- the living force and unifying force- and be a balanced part of life.
And initially, we heard nothing in the prophecy about destroying the Sith. That line only showed up in EPIII. I think that they began to assume that was included.
And I can't stand Mace Windu. What an arrogant ass. "You know Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assasinate anyone." "I don't the Sith could have returned without us knowing." "I don't trust Anakin." "If you're right [about Palpatine], you'll have earned my trust."
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Luke talking to dead people -- especially at the end of Return of the Jedi -- is a definite sign of his mental unBalance. Add Yoda's "There is another." to Luke going off to battle untrained/unBalanced, and the Balancing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX are the result.
Excepting Lucas' original novel, the books have nothing to do with the StarWars trilogy -- ie Episodes IthruIII, Episodes IVthruVI, Episodes VIIthruIX -- beyond being allowed to use the StarWars title and character names for merchandizing.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I'm not even done with it, but that AICN review is absolutely, 100% spot on about everything- about the emperor, about the Jedi, about Anakin, about the republic, about what went wrong- everything.
Thanks, Telperion.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Luke talking to dead people -- especially at the end of Return of the Jedi -- is a definite sign of his mental unBalance. Add Yoda's "There is another." to Luke going off to battle untrained/unBalanced, and the Balancing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX are the result.
Excepting Lucas' original novel, the books have nothing to do with the StarWars trilogy -- ie Episodes IthruIII, Episodes IVthruVI, Episodes VIIthruIX -- beyond being allowed to use the StarWars title and character names for merchandizing.
What gave you the idea that the sequel trilogy was supposed to have been about bringing balance to the Force? I've never heard anything like that.
And I also think that Luke's talking to dead people is probably because of the Force, not Luke's schizophrenia.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
aspectre, do you have something against using spaces to separate words? It makes your posts rather difficult to read.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
What would be the purpose of Episodes VIIthruIX other than Balance? What would be the purpose of "There is another." when any desire by Lucas to be able to replace (the actor playing) Luke (in case of a contract dispute, etc) is outside of the StarWars Universe?
Why does UncleBen spit at the memory of Anakin (when there is no public connection between Anakin and DarthVader)? Why does UncleBen despise the Jedi (as represented by ObiWan)? Why is that attitude shared by the general public?
Perhaps because any individual who takes on the role of judge, jury, and executioner -- ie the Jedi -- is intrinsicly despicable? Especially when they prop up a government-by-assassination?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"do you have something against using spaces to separate words?"
Yep, I do. I don't like HTML's breaking of words-giving-name-to-a-singular-concept into two different lines on the page.
[ June 07, 2005, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
"There is another" very obviously was Leia. Luke asked Ben what Yoda meant when he repeated that line before he died. Ben confirmed it was Leia.
As for your other comments, interesting. I do think that the Jedi weren't as respected as they used to be. Partly because they did blindly support the republic instead of demanding that reform take place.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"Luke's talking to dead people is probably because of the Force, not Luke's schizophrenia"
The interesting thing about using dead people as moral authorities is the person using them can justify any evil cuz the dead won't argue the point. Whether ya wanna call it the Force or channeling the spiritworld or schizophrenia or whatever doesn't change the fact that any message from the dead is unverifiable.
[ June 07, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
quote:Windu wasn't the only one who could repel Sith lightning. Yoda did it against Dooku and Sidious, and he did it with his bare hands, without a lightsabre. Or do you mean Windu was the only one who could repel it back onto the user as a weapon, since Yoda only repelled it into the wall?
I must have missed that part. When I saw Yoda do it he just absorbed the Force lightning, not deflected it. Maybe he could do the same thing then. I don't know, though, because the book talks about Windu using the dark side to "complete the loop" or something and turn the lightning back on Palpatine.
Also, as for why Luke didn't get disfigured when he got shocked, I always thought that the Emperor's deformation came as much from using so much dark side energy as from getting hit with the lightning. Maybe they both had to work together to do that. But that's just my speculation and I have nothing to back it up. Or it could just be another one of Lucas's continuity flubs. :/
quote:Excepting Lucas' original novel, the books have nothing to do with the StarWars trilogy -- ie Episodes IthruIII, Episodes IVthruVI, Episodes VIIthruIX -- beyond being allowed to use the StarWars title and character names for merchandizing.
What do you base that statement on? George Lucas has approved the novels, and the official Star Wars website sure uses them as a valid part of the Star Wars universe. Sure, they're not the movies themselves, but if you disallow anything that's not in the movies then that doesn't really leave you much to go on, since the truth about the movies is that they're full of actual plot holes and continuity mistakes, and a lot of the extended univers just tries to do what it can to cover up those mistakes find plausible explanations for them.
quote:"Luke's talking to dead people is probably because of the Force, not Luke's schizophrenia"
The interesting thing about using dead people as moral authorities is the person using them can justify any evil cuz the dead won't argue the point. Whether ya wanna call it the Force or channeling the spiritworld or whatever doesn't change the fact that any message from the dead is unverifiable.
Aspectre, why are you trying to use real-world rules on a fictional universe? In the Star Wars Universe, the Force is verifiably true, and dead Jedi will argue a point with you if they disagree. It seems you're just arguing to be difficult.
Posted by Kyle Katarn (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Whether ya wanna call it the Force or channeling the spiritworld or whatever doesn't change the fact that any message from the dead is unverifiable.
Except that both Luke and Yoda can see and hear Obi-wan on Dagobah. Certainly seems like something that could be verifiable, at least to other Jedi.
quote:George Lucas has approved the novels, and the official Star Wars website sure uses them as a valid part of the Star Wars universe. Sure, they're not the movies themselves, but if you disallow anything that's not in the movies then that doesn't really leave you much to go on, since the truth about the movies is that they're full of actual plot holes and continuity mistakes, and a lot of the extended univers just tries to do what it can to cover up those mistakes find plausible explanations for them.
The Star Wars site itself makes the distinction...character listings are broken down with info based on the movies and the 'Expanded Universe' information. Lucas takes what he likes from the EU stuffs but mostly ignores it. Didn't he want to change Bail Organa's name at some point?
Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
quote: "do you have something against using spaces to separate words?"
That is: Would you mind going through ancient scriptures so that we get more work done from an experienced person?
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Yep, I'm living under a rock... another thread I have to boycott until who-knows-when. Maybe I can manage to get the sometimes husband to arrange for a babysitter and take me now that he seems interested in reconciliation.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Yep, I do. I don't like HTML's breaking of words-giving-name-to-a-singular-concept into two different lines on the page.
I hate to say it, but your solution to the "problem" of line breaks only makes your posts more difficult to read, not easier.
Posted by antihero (Member # 8156) on :
First of all, whoever thought Mace Windu was an "arrogant ass", Mace Windu is the awesomest Jedi. He was the only one with enough nerve to give that prick Anakin the what for. Also, he is unique in his fighting style, position on the council, philosophy, ability to use anger to his own advantage, and... violet lightsaber. He kicked Palpatine's ass. Yoda didn't do that.
I don't really consider the expanded universe to be true to Star Wars. It doesn't have the right "ring" to it.
Here's what I'm thinking right now. The coolest way I can interpret all this is to synthesize what some people and myself have already said...
Anakin was created by Palpatine through the Force as a tool, the perfect apprentice. The Jedi, an old and corrupt order, failed to see that their ways were unsuitable for this new age. Democracy only works so long as there is no "man behind the curtain" operating the ropes. From what we see in Ep. 1, 2, and 3, the Jedi have ultimate control of politics and the military with their puppet, Chancellor Valorum.
This is the reason why the Jedi couldn't sense Palpatine as being an agent of the Dark - it is because Palpatine was IN LINE WITH THE FORCE. He was fulfilling balance. Too much power had gone to the light side; a new order had to take its place to remove the corruption the Jedi had created. Yoda himself says in the novelization that these were not the Sith he knew. The old Sith were pure evil, and were an unbalancing force int their own right, until the Jedi toppled them, thereby restoring the balance. Now, however, the Sith ARE the balancing agent. Their techniques, too are different; the web of lies, deceit and treachery Palpatine spins is a new kind of Sith, a cunning Sith who used every weakness the Jedi had - their lust for power, their inability to change.
In a true democracy, Mace Windu would have given Palpatine over to the courts for arrest. He didn't. It is that moment of corruption that broke the flow. Mace had taken power for himself. The ultimate goal of the Force is to keep power with both sides - power cannot belong exclusively to one side of morality. There must be balance. Anakin cut off Mace's hand, and balanced the Force. At the end, only two Force-users on each side remained - Yoda and Obi-Wan, Palpatine and Anakin. Thus, balance was restored. However, in Ep. 4, 5, and 6, the balance has clearly shifted towards the Dark. The Empire exerts a stranglehold over the galaxy. Thus, Anakin again restores balance by slaying the Emperor, leaving Luke as the only force-user remaining. Luke practices only moderation, and does not request power for himself. Thus, the prophecy that was given was made true, both as Palpatine had wished when he bore Anakin, and to Palpatine's detriment.
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Okay, so maybe the EU isn't quite as official as I thought. And it's fine if you don't want to pay attention to it. But, I just want to point out that if you don't use the EU, then there's really no way to definitively answer these questions, because whatever explanation you come up with will just be your speculation, and even less official. Obviously there aren't enough interviews with George Lucas himself to definitively answer all of these questions. And furthermore, he wouldn't even if he could because most of them are just plain screwups on his part.
But, in the end, I don't mind at all if people make up their own personal version of the Star Wars universe, I do it myself. I still refuse to believe midichlorians have anything to do with the Force. But just recognize that it is your personal version, and no closer to being "more official" than anything else.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: First of all, whoever thought Mace Windu was an "arrogant ass", Mace Windu is the awesomest Jedi. He was the only one with enough nerve to give that prick Anakin the what for....
I don't really consider the expanded universe to be true to Star Wars. It doesn't have the right "ring" to it.
You, sir, are a Philistine.
Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
What does the five-cities' people have to do with it?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote: Yoda himself says in the novelization that these were not the Sith he knew. The old Sith were pure evil, and were an unbalancing force int their own right, until the Jedi toppled them, thereby restoring the balance. Now, however, the Sith ARE the balancing agent. Their techniques, too are different; the web of lies, deceit and treachery Palpatine spins is a new kind of Sith, a cunning Sith who used every weakness the Jedi had - their lust for power, their inability to change.
So wait... Yoda WAS alive during the last Sith war? Mmmmm... interesting
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, he was alive during the time of Nomi Sunrider and Uleq Qel Droma. He would had to of been, as Vima Da Boda was Nomi Sunrider's daughter, and she taught Kyp Durron on Kessel. And Nomi a jedi who fought against Uleq after he went bad. I thought all that was the last big Sith war.
Some of the books contradict each other though with the timeline. I thought Exar Kun was supposed to have been Uleq's teacher and evil master, but he was supposed to have been killed thousands of years ago, yet Nomi Sunrider's daughter lived into Han Solo's time.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Now, the Galactic Republic has been around, or originally was said to have been around, for about 20,000 years. But in the new movies they said the Republic is only 1000 years old? Is this George changing things or was Palpatine just being techincal... that this current version of the Republic is only 1000 years old but an older one existed before?
Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
Maybe a reformation in Galactical politics, and they were referring to slightly different things. You could say that the Roman Republic lasted only until Marius came and from then it was a militaristic oligarchy, or you could say that it lasted until Augustus's day.
Same thing here.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The movie leaves it up for grabs, but in the novelization of Ep. III, Darth Sidious is able to defeat everyone.
Not just defeat, but totally pwn them, if you're familiar with leetspeak. Him on his back facing Master Windu is another in a long string of masterful dramatic performances, another in a long string of performance and deception for Anakin Skywalker.
The scarring of his face was necessary to Palpatine, so he could say he was 'disfigured by the Jedi'-and in a sense, it was even true. You can't say that because he looked bad and was panting that he was down and out. He's a Sith Lord, who are by definition never unarmed. The only person ever to defeat him was Anakin Skywalker, who decades later obeyed that first instict he had, and killed Darth Sidious.
-------
Palpatine is right about the Jedi, in many ways. They are heavily invested in maintaining their own power. To be fair, they're interested in that in order to maintain their ability to do good, but they're still jealous of their autocracy within themselves. They are interested in maintaining the status quo, as evidenced by the things they do.
The Galactic Republic had been around for at least a thousand years, and slavery was still commonplace out in the Outer Rim? There's only one reason, really, why a Jedi (why all the Jedi) would permit such an evil to continue: political expediency. The same thing with becoming generals in a Clone Army.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Let me steal a few quote from Harry Knowles' review of ROTS regarding Anakin's fall and the failure of the Jedi, particularly Mace, as they express my feelings perfectly.
quote:The most shocking or surprising emotion I felt during this film experience is that… I don’t want Anakin to become Darth Vader. I just… Despite 27 years to the contrary, as I sat in that theater watching the last act of a good Jedi that turned evil… I just found myself wanting to scream at him to stop. I wanted desperately to send him on that mission with Obi Wan. I wanted Mace Windu to put his hand on Anakin’s shoulder and say, “Come on Kid, Let’s finish this!” and march off as brother Jedi to kill the ******* Emperor. I wanted Anakin to let go of his hate, fear, ambition, jealousy and self-centered egotism and just be the knight in shining armor… FOR THE GOOD GUYS!
You can tell… Anakin so wants to do what is right. He even does the right things, it’s just everyone around him doesn’t treat him as an equal… save for Palpatine. That when push comes to shove, the only ******* rat bastard in the galaxy that is going to call him son, tell him ‘fairy tales’ and really listen to his problems enough to find out what is REALLY troubling him is the bad guy!...
The Bad Guy has his priorities right. He’s controlling the robots, the clones and to a large extent the Jedi… yet still manages to multi-task enough to listen to Anakin and help him deal with his premonitions of personal tragedy. He'll take the time, to ignore an amazing science fiction zero-G Esther Williams number, to tell young Skywalker a SITH LEGEND. A story, an anecdote. And he tells it, like a father would to a son. And the story is directly related to the problem Anakin is facing, it gives him hope, direction and the first glimmer of a happy ending to his concern. He doesn’t tell Anakin bull**** like… learn to not give a ****, detachment is the key to inner peace… What sort of bull**** is that? Ignore your problems, betray those you love, watch everyone you care about die – and just be happy cuz they’re food for the force, which you manipulate… and everyone’s death will just make you more powerful. WHAT SORT OF ******* JEDI WISDOM IS THAT **** YODA??? THAT'S NOT REALLY HELPFUL YOU NEGATIVE GREEN TURD!
My god. The Jedi really are a bunch of goody two shoe clueless ****. They’re so concerned with fixing the galaxy’s problems that they don’t have time for their own… and due to their unrealistic and inhumane rules about not loving or caring about anything other than the almighty “force” they created an air of fear for Skywalker. How could he level with them? How could he share with them? By the time Obi Wan finds out Anakin and Padme have kids on the way… it’s too late. That ship has sailed. Everyone is so busy being good little soldiers, that they just are not communicating.
Obi Wan never takes Anakin out for drinks and just levels with him. Sits him down and explains fascist totalitarianism. He doesn’t explain why sacrificing the most marginal freedoms to create a false sense of security enables those taking on those additional powers to create a greater evil than that which they fear. Hell, nobody really explains to Anakin why Democracy is better than Absolute Rule. Instead it is all this, “Search your feelings” bull****. Turn to your ancient religion. This is why ultimately Luke Skywalker kicks ass. Because he doesn’t have all this dogmatic bull****. Because he’s got a buddy like Han Solo that’d be willing to bust ass across the galaxy to save his ass. Somebody that has his back. FRIENDS! Because when the Sith hits the fan, it’s the love of your friends that’ll help you push through and kick ass. Because Luke believes in twin sunsets, the good guys and saving his dad.
What does Anakin have? Who cares about Anakin? Well Obi Wan, but he doesn’t know how to show it. Yoda? He’s too busy being disturbed about the cosmic meaning of **** to even form a no bull**** non fortune cookie sentence. Mace Windu? He’s got his head so far up his ass it ain’t funny. Padme? She’s more concerned with her hair, her image, everybody’s standing and well being. And then Anakin himself? He’s told he’s the chosen one, the key that will make the galaxy unified. Yet, the only one empowering him to do that is the **** Emperor.
The Jedi botched it. And they didn't have to. That's what makes it a tragedy. This isn't simply someone who was evil. Anakin was good. And was trying to do good. And those who should have been there weren't. And he was lost due to incompetence, narrow-mindedness, dogmatism, suspicion, and manipulation.
I stand by my assertion about Mace and the Jedi. (Of course, Samuel Jackson's own arrogance is equally irritating.)
And yes, I know all of that is my personal opinion.
[ June 08, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
The more I read these posts and think about Luke's potential, the more I wish we could have some movies that let us see a New jedi Order arise that is not so dang irritating...to see a Jedi, like Luke, who actually lets you be a person and a Jedi at the same time.
My question is, did George Lucas purposely make the Jedi in Ep.1,2,3 look obsolete so that he could contrast it with Luke's style? Or was this just an accident, and he didn't really mean to send the message that it is better to be a Jedi with emotions and loved ones, like Luke was?
Posted by antihero (Member # 8156) on :
I stand behind everything IanO just quoted. That's exactly how I feel.
Mace's sternness has to do with his position. While Yoda is the leader of the Jedi Masters, that is, the masters of the Force, Windu leads the Jedi Knights, the metaphorical hand of the Masters. As such, he is faced with disciplining people such as Anakin Skywalker, many of whom are still lost within themselves and Jedi teachings (foolish as those teachings may be).
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I thought the last entry was strangly haunting.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
These two are from those memoirs.
Vader is waiting for Luke to show up at Bespin.
quote:I Hate Waiting
Awaiting the arrival of Skywalker. A personal moment.
My words yesterday about Leia Organa got me to thinking. Specifically, I was thinking about the way I referred to her as her. Am I so weak that I cannot bring myself to pronounce her name?
Her name was Padme Naberrie. And she was my wife.
Do you know what I liked best about her? It was not her laugh, or her tresses, or her even her kisses: it was the fire that lit in her eyes when she was angry. That fire told you who you were dealing with: not a mere mortal, but someone who would bring rain to deserts if it suited her. A stubborn godlet, in a girl's frame. Her spirit shone so vividly I could never read her mind for all the glare.
And she had this amazing power of dignity that meant that no matter how much someone might underestimate her initially, after the first few words out of her mouth they were forced to take her seriously.
People never took me that seriously. (I mean, they do now -- but not then.) I had to kill people to get them to take me seriously.
They say I killed her, that I killed Padme. But it is not true. I choked her, yes, but it was childbirth that took her. The Force traded Padme for Luke, the boy who now races to this city to rescue his friends. As he draws nearer the strings of the Force hum in anticipation, new nodes of causality blooming at the intersections of its interstellar strands...
I wll reach out to him.
As I reached out to Obi-wan Kenobi and was denied, and left to burn, I shall reach out to take Luke's hand when he is fallen before me. I will have in abundance what no one had for me: mercy, forgiveness, understanding, trust.
When I close my eyes the sky is alight with the whorls of the Force, coalescing here around this city in the clouds. How can I doubt the truth I have divined? Luke will join me.
It is his destiny.
ROTJ, waiting for Luke to come to him on Endor.
quote:The Tao Of Sith
Big day. Receiving the Emperor. Ruminations on the Sith mission statement.
My master, the Dark Lord Sidious, Most Excellent Emperor of the known galaxy Palpatine, has arrived at Endor. Amid only minor pomp and circumstance he debarked from his shuttle and I escorted him to his tower where he has now retired to recuperate from his journey and align himself with the local Force.
It was he who broached the subject of Luke Skywalker. I felt his presence slither among my thoughts and I held my consciousness stock still, repulsed by his cold probe but powerless to resist him. He knows my thoughts dwell on my son. He knows I yearn to take up my post aboard Executor and resume the chase.
And yet he denied it me.
My master's thoughts are an impenetrable miasma to me now, but for a shallow gloss of ritual trivia he maintains like a wig over his true mind. It has not always been this way.
I am no fool. I know he has cast a cloud of obfuscation between us.
Does he prepare himself for death? He is ill, and I tell you this in the strictest confidence. He is gravely ill, he has confessed this to me. This is why turning Skywalker is so vital: who better to be my dark padawan, when my master has been released from this plane?
"You were conceived by the galaxy, my friend," Palpatine has told me. "You are of it, and the immaterial part of you is bound inextricably with the fate of it. Your blood carries the will of the Force, as surely as if it were written in a book."
I am indispensible to the galaxy, but my master is not. He knows this to be true and has accepted it into his heart, for the way of the Sith commands an unflinching communion with pain. "There can only be two," he has reminded me. "When destiny reveals your apprentice, I shall be slain. I am but an instrument in this affair."
And yet, I find myself wondering about my master sometimes. What kind of man did it take to covertly apprentice oneself to the Force, and then engineer a rise to total power? Beyond the guidance of the way of the Sith, what kind of a man does it take to begin such an undertaking?
About Palpatine's childhood on Naboo I know nothing. The archives have been purged. How he escaped the eyes of the Jedi examiners is a mystery. But somehow his gifts remained his secret. By Korriban he learned the way. He had the strength of spirit to look into the darkness and come away alive. By the stewardship of Plagueis he came to know the power of the dark side...
Wait a moment. Do you even know the difference between the light side and dark side of the Force?
It must be understood that the Force is, above all, singular. The so-called "sides" arise from differing matters of perspective. (If you study the way of the Sith you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend entirely on one's point of view.)
The opposite of the singular Force is the all-encompassing void of death. Time began with the Force, and will end in desolation. This is the way of things, and an inevitable consequence of the flow of events from the past into the future.
Without the inertia of the fall toward the abyss, the Force would have nowhere to go.
For in the chaotic tumble toward doom the stuff of the worlds enact loops of complexity that change the grade from life to death, introducing valleys, peaks and cycles. Between creation and destruction comes a flutter of improbability, a brief sonnet of meaning against the noise of time. Life!
It is the causal contagion that ties every ounce of us together through the network of the Force, our actions resonating against our almost-actions and our non-actions in a web of fleeting possibility that spans this galaxy and beyond. The beat of a child's heart detonates supernovae, the beat of a bug's wing tilts the orbit of worlds.
We are all connected.
Anyone who awakens to the Force knows this. The divisive issue is what to do with this knowledge.
When you can run the mechanism of the universe forward or backward, scrubbing through possible histories with a thought, a theme develops. You cannot escape it. Death, death, death. It is the final destiny of all things, great or small, matter or idea. But there is astounding beauty in the arts of the not-death, the filigree dances of life's loops as it spins from light to void. If you are human, it moves you.
It should move you. But this is what the Jedi Order denies. They preach that the heart of a beast cannot judge the destiny of a galaxy. They preach dispassion and detachment, a condescending compassion for the damned. They stand by the sidelines and watch history happen, intervening only in trivia that offends their effete sensibilities.
Every Jedi knew the cycles of civilization, and every Jedi knew an age of barbarism was nigh. And yet they did nothing.
In contrast, the way of the Sith is predicated on a love for man. We have inherited the godhead of the galaxy by colonizing its every world. Though lesser species might have flourished given infinite time, it was our kind who got there first. We have won this galaxy with thousands of generations of our blood and our dreams. We call the others "primitives" because we are their kings.
And we will not sit idly by as it all careens toward a morbid interregnum. Inspired by our passions we will act to bridge the gulf between civilizations, shortening the period of disorder by decisively maintaining connections between societies from one side of the galaxy to the other. We will weather the storm.
Hate! Love! Misery! Joy! These are paths to the dark side, for to invest in the emotional life of civilization is to care about its fate. To care is to suffer, and suffering is real.
The Jedi were mere spectators.
They jabbered amongst themselves as a committee, no one of them wielding enough power to see through my master's veil, their light resting on the shoulders of three. In contrast by the Sith way the Force is gathered and concentrated in a single individual, making him a catalyst for vision. With Jedi arts a gifted one can see the next moment -- with Sith arts a gifted one can read the decade. The Force is focused through my master so that I might by way of his preternatural alignment also brightly see the many forked face of destiny.
Because of this the Dark One traditionally exhibits a bewildering confluence of humility and potency -- the bleak peace of one who has seen the endless doom at the end of time and returned with an oath to steer life well.
Though I wonder lately about my master's humility. How long has it been since he has gazed into the naked face of the Force, and how arrogant has he become in the while? Could he scheme to live forever, as Xizor claimed? Could he truly have forgotten that the prophecy is about me?
And in the time of greatest despair there shall come a saviour, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns. ...Unless Darth Sidious schemes to use my son in my stead. It is, I think you will agree, the only logical conclusion. There is another Skywalker, and that means I am no longer unique.
I feel my master's shadow breathing over this world. It runs far and it touches many things, but there is no thread that runs to Luke. I alone can sense him, and as I am blocked from my master's intimacy by his cloud of obfuscation my son is not included in the fatescapes my master cultivates...
There is a schism in the Force and it rolls this way like thunder.
I have a bad feeling about this.
And this final excerpt, when Vader and Luke speak on Endor, just before Vader brings him to the Emperor, is interesting.
quote:It is too late for me. My hour has come and gone. Words would gain us nothing. And I could stand the torment of his gaze no longer. I ordered Skywalker be flown up to the Death Star without further delay. "...My father is truly dead," said my son as the lift closed.
My leg drooped and I stepped over to the railing again, facing my own dim reflection in the windows. My throat filled with bile as I considered that I had just lost the faith of the one person in this universe who would forgive me, and whose love could redeem me. I have just closed the door on my salvation...
My name is Anakin Skywalker, and I am responsible for the death of my mother, because I broke our bond to pursue my ambition. I am responsible for the death of my wife, the mother of my child, the only woman strong enough and smart enough to win my faith. I am responsible for the death of Jedi Master Obi-wan Kenobi, who once tried to show me the real meaning of friendship and loyalty. And then there was Qui-gon Jinn who could have been like the father I never had, but Palpatine stole him from me.
Palpatine!
I think I have always hated him, channeling my jealousy at his power and dignity into a sick kind of devotion. I wanted him to love me, but he is not really a man with a heart -- whatever daemon rules him has its tonsils deep in the darkest layers of this galaxy.
I know now that my master, Darth Sidious the Emperor Palpatine, means to betray the Sith and subvert the prophecy. He means to replace me with my son as his prodigal servant. So armed he means to rule the stars himself, forever.
This job has a glass ceiling.
I should never have been born. Without me, Palpatine would be lost. I was essential. But now I am nothing. My very life inside this mechanized mockery of a body relies on the raw power of the dark side that is focused through him. I could not be without his blessing. And his blessing fails, so I go to join Tyrannus.
I was not strong enough. I have failed everyone.
...And yet, there is my son with Shmi in his eyes -- a product of love, before the storm. He is no Jedi, for his passion blows too hot, but perhaps he is not Sith, either. He is an instrument of change. He is the catalyst at the centre, the fulcrum on which pivot fates. To see him is to be blinded by the glory of the Force that orbits him like living netting.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
That was awesome. Sounds like the Sith, or at least Vader, wanted the same things as Asimov's Foundations did... to preserve Civilization from a Dark Age that might never end.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The galactic Republic/Empire has been in an artificial DarkAges from the introduction of the Force. Somewhat like Leto creating&enforcing the millenia of DarkAges, ie the GoldenPath in Dune.
"So wait... Yoda WAS alive during the last Sith war?"
From the episode in which Luke visited Dagobah, I'd always thought of Yoda as the nearly immortal last survivor of the Civilization which created the Force that destroyed it. Analogous to Aycharaych in PoulAnderson's Flandry series.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yeah, that's one of the things I found so fascinating. The fact that even Palpatine, and certainly Vader, would have justifications for what they did. That the Empire was also referred to as the New Order (though, for the life of me, I cannot remember where, exactly) indicated that bringing order was crucial. But there was a cost. "Do you want one moment of real pain or a lifetime of ache?" I also like the casting of the Rebels as terrorists and that the destruction of Alderaan was depicted as a "those who harbor and support these terrorists will suffer the same fate" kind of logic. Whether one agrees with that or not, it was interesting.
And I liked the look into Vader's psyche- his listening to music and meditating, his belief that the Sith were the true humanists (even existentialists), even the fact that he had one officer he had been friends with.
Yes, I know it really just comes under fan fiction. But for me, it only serves to actualize many of the thoughts I have had since watching the entire Hexology (or Sexology- take your pick).
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
If only lucas put so much thought into his characters, we would have a better trilogy.
Ni!
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I think that some of his characters do show some thought that he wanted them to be more than paper thin. But I do think that he stumbled in the execution. It's clear, at least to me, that his ideas about Anakin, why he fell, how he felt once fallen, and what led to his redemption, indicates that, in his mind, at least, it was fully drawn and realized (despite juevenile expressions and understanding of politics). But transferring that understanding to the film was harder and, in some ways, he failed (and many fail at this. Clarity in writing- never GL's strong suit, by any means- is a gift that sets apart great writers from mere entertainers).
But at the same time, those willing to give him the benefit of the doubt or overlook the more obvious flaws (or pandering) can be delighted that this obviously (and purposely) campy hexology had a few deeper layers to them and yet is not pretentious(ly stupid) in the way that, say, the Matrix Trilogy turned out to be ('Hey, look at us. We're brilliant with our college dorm room 2 am philosophizing about the nature of the universe!'). By that I mean that once viewed through the lens of the prequels, the OT becomes deeper (not in comparison, all you haters- ) because the motivations of the characters, principally Vader and Kenobi, are fleshed out and resonate more with their history.
For me, at least. I liked it. And despite Jar Jar and farting Oeopi's and "yipee!", I'm glad he did it. I found it satisfying.
My opinion.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I agree with IanO - I think part of Lucas's problem is that it is so well thought out that he forgets we don't know what he's thinking. So a lot of things that look contradictory aren't, but the explanation is something we could never derive from the information we're given. He fails to develop characters because, to him, they are developed. It's a weakness, but, as IanO said, not a fatal one.
Many of the works we're most disappointed in are the ones that we can glimpse or imagine in perfected form. Most works for which that's possible have accomplished something rare, and it makes the failure more painful.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
So I finally went to see it.
quote: And this has bugged me the most. How the heck could Yoda, Windu, and all the other Jedi sit 5 feet from Palpatine for 10 years and never get even an inkling of a feeling like "Gee, it kind of feels dark and evil in here." I mean, Yoda could feel all the Jedi getting killed lightyears away, but he could not sense at least some kind of evil when staring straight at Palpatine's face all the time. Plus, wasn't Luke able to sense Vader's presence in RotJ?
I'm glad someone else brought this out earlier in this thread -- because this is the ONE thing that bugged me the most about this film.
Oh - I liked the film fine -- but there were just little things gnawing at me, that I don't remember every bugging me with the others as much. (and you all had some pretty good answers to this, too).
However, I almost can't forgive the dialogue. When Padmé says to Anakin "I don't even know you anymore!" I wanted to simulatenously slap her and vomit. How trite and stupid!
All their "romance" scenes read like dialogue from a 1930's or 40's B-romance movies. It stunk.
(someone at work says I will like it better the second time I see it)
Farmgirl
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
you've never said "I don't even know you anymore!"?
Hard to believe. Just because a sentiment is expressed more than once by many people does not make it trite.
From my own personal experience, I can say that those words perfectly summed up my feelings when standing in front of someone I knew who was behaving in a manner that contradicted years of history with them.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I'm just saying it's been used in nearly every romance movie since Gone with the Wind (I don't remember if it was said in that one). So it is overused, worn out, predictable, etc. etc. I'm not saying it wasn't accurate -- I just wish they have found better dialogue to express the same meaning, to show her realization that he had changed.
(no, I don't think I've ever said that to anyone.)
FG
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Well, I'm not arguing that GL's dialog is pretty bad ("I'm a person and my name is Anakin." "I'm sorry. This is a strange place to me.") That's a fact.
In fact, when Lucas was receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award from the AFI he joked that he started out not being able to write a word, but became "the king of wooden dialogue."
I was into the movie enough that all but the worst 'romantic' dialogue didn't have that effect on me-and boy, there was some of that!
As for Palpatine's lack of an evil aura...even his best friend, Anakin Skywalker, didn't notice it until Palpatine decided to release that aspect of himself. The idea behind that is that Palpatine is vastly more powerful than the other Jedi, especially in areas of deception and concealment.
Also the idea that Palpatine was himself the Sith Lord was so absurd to the Jedi that it probably never occurred to them.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I think it's also important to remember that Star Wars was inspired by stuff like Flash Gordon. The dialogue could probably be a lot worse.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I think it's all about immersion. I too was so into the story, both in EpII and EpIII that the dialogue didn't matter. The ideas (or feelings) and the epic flow behind them are what mattered, not the silly words.
OSC once made the distinction between reading something "Critically" and "Epickly" (or "Mythickly" ) [sic]. The idea was that when you give a story power over you, you read with an open heart and let it affect you and are willing to gloss over the little things. This is reading it Epickly, as if it is part of your (or your community's) self story. But when you read critically, you do not let it touch you in any way and let flaws take you out even more.
I think it is possible that there are varying degrees in that spectrum, so that a person can be reading with a degree of both traits and things like dialogue or believability can have greater or lesser effects on how much the story means to you.
As a child, the thresh-hold between the two is much higher, so that the OT can have been so powerful to us back then, even though the OT demostrably had many of the same corny elements the prequels do. We didn't hold back our ourselves. As we get older, the thresh-hold drops, for normal reasons. Tales need more to move us.
That said, I still loved the prequels, flaws and all (though the Gungans are the only exception.)
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
Jeff, part of my problem with the movie was that I do love the characters, and am immersed in the story, but everytime anyone opens their mouth, it jars me right out, and I have to work to believe it again.
I think Jon and Dag are right, that Lucas is so immersed in his story that he doesn't realize when he's being unclear or contradictory. I just wish he could have showed us what he sees in it.
I also wish he'd hired someone to write dialouge.
Ni!
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I think those are valid feelings
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:OSC once made the distinction between reading something "Critically" and "Epickly" (or "Mythickly" ) [sic]. The idea was that when you give a story power over you, you read with an open heart and let it affect you and are willing to gloss over the little things.
This is a good way to put it. I buy it - I liked Ep. I, thought Ep. II was very good, and loved Ep. III. I'll buy the DVDs. My method of looking at it was to seek out the explanation for unexplained things that made the story more epic (in my mind).
None of this means I don't recognize the flaws. It just means I think the underlying myth is powerful enough to survive them.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:The galactic Republic/Empire has been in an artificial DarkAges from the introduction of the Force. Somewhat like Leto creating&enforcing the millenia of DarkAges, ie the GoldenPath in Dune.
"So wait... Yoda WAS alive during the last Sith war?"
From the episode in which Luke visited Dagobah, I'd always thought of Yoda as the nearly immortal last survivor of the Civilization which created the Force that destroyed it. Analogous to Aycharaych in PoulAnderson's Flandry series.
Very interesting... Now, I don't know much about the Sith war but you seem to imply that before the current incarnation of galactic civilization there was a Golden Age of the Force? And that the society during the time of the movies is actually during a dark age for the galaxy?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I don't know of I buy that. I doubt it's canon. I find it hard to swallow alot of the Tales of the Jedi.
Though there does seem to be a slight contradiction in the SW canon regarding the timespan of the Republic. In the prequels, the expression "The republic which has stood for a 1000 years" is used a few times. Sometimes, '1000 generations' is also used. But in the OT (at least the novelizations, including GL's original that he wrote with Foster) the Republic is tens of thousands of years old. The implication is that GL changed his mind and that the end of the Sith war, 1000 years ago, coincided with the formation of the republic.
In which case, I wonder why Yoda wasn't more freaked out when the Sith resurfaced. I mean, he was born around only 200 years after the end of the Sith War. Assuming it was as violent an upheaval as it sounds, the societal memory and impetus for watching out should have been great and he should have picked up on that. As a long-lived being, he would have had the long view towards time anyway. Some group hiding for a few centuries should not have been so far-fetched.
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