This really makes me mad. Why desecrating an American flag is protected speech is beyond me. And for someone to advocate the overthrow of the American government...why is that guy not in jail? Though I'm sure the FBI is watching these guys, it bothers me that we even allow these kinds of protests to go on.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That certainly will not garner much sympathy around here.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
What won't garner sympathy? My statements or theirs?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Sorry -- their actions.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote:Originally posted by Crotalus: This really makes me mad. Why desecrating an American flag is protected speech is beyond me. And for someone to advocate the overthrow of the American government...why is that guy not in jail? Though I'm sure the FBI is watching these guys, it bothers me that we even allow these kinds of protests to go on.
Frankly, it bothers me that there are those who don't want to allow those sorts of protests to go on. The whole idea of freedom insists that you allow others to disagree and protest against things that you believe in. It's okay that it makes you mad--it's incredibly ironic that the freedom that protects them from being thrown in jail is exactly the freedom that the America that they hate so much stands for. But still...it's not really freedom if only ideas that you agree with are allowed to be spoken/demonstrated.
And as for someone advocating the overthrowing of the American government... while I don't think war is the answer to this, I sure do think sometimes it would be nice to overhaul the entire corrupted system. Maybe insist that the rich and the politicians can't hold office anymore--only people who have demonstrated real character who are not in it for money or power--but how would you measure that anyway?
-Katarain
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:how would you measure that anyway?
How about we let each citizen participate in judging the various candidates on these qualities. They could get together once a year and write down the name of people they think exhibit those traits. Then we could have someone count it all up and tell us who the winner is.
Oh, wait...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Why desecrating an American flag is protected speech is beyond me.
quote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
.
It is protected speech because it is peaceful, and it is petitioning the government for a redress of grievances. Flag-burning and desecration should be protected speech because it is nonviolent expression of discontent with the government.
As to why he wasn't arrested for attempting to overthrow the American government with violence...well, I suppose two reasons. One, it may not have been specific enough. He says they reject law and order, America, and Congress, and that people should topple America. This could be done in many ways.
The second, more obvious reason is that if we started jailing every fanatic on a streetcorner who protested America, we'd be stupidly playing into their hands and creating more of them for no real gain at all.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I do think there should be a line that you don't cross when it comes to these sorts of things. If they hate America that much, why don't they just get the hell out. If you don't love America, even though it does have flaws, then go to Saudi Arabia or something. While I do believe in freedom, and served in the US Navy for four years protecting that freedom, I don't think it should be absolute. There are always limits. As the old saying goes; your right to swing your fists ends at my nose. Free speech is the same way, you can't just yell "fire" in a crowded theater, unless there really is a fire. There are laws against treason in this country, anyone advocating the overthrow of the American government is in violation of these laws. Desecration of the American Flag on American soil should not be protected speech, it should be rightly called treason.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:There are laws against treason in this country, anyone advocating the overthrow of the American government is in violation of these laws. Desecration of the American Flag on American soil should not be protected speech, it should be rightly called treason.
The Constitution disagrees in Article III, Section 3, Clause 1:
quote:Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
These actions fall under neither prong of that test.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
You know, I'm glad that these people felt free to openly make this video. Leaving aside the protecting free speach means protecting it even when you really disagree with it issue, I think it's usually great when my enemies have a chance to really speak their minds. For one thing, it's much better than them plotting in secret. This sounds like almost rebellious teen posturing. "Oooh, we're so bad. We ripped up the American flag." For another, it let's people see them for who they are. Nearly any person who is impressed by that was already pretty firmly in that camp anyway. And, if they weren't before, you better believe that U.S. intelligence are up these guys butts now.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
There is always somebody against your opinion, against your politic, against what you are. Just because i'm french, many people dislike on the world. Or because, i am white. Or because i said yes to the constitution... Do not be unaware of them, but do not be so irritate. You wrote it : they are idiot.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Those are pretty much the same reasons I oppose taking down the white supremecist websites, Squick.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I do think there should be a line that you don't cross when it comes to these sorts of things. If they hate America that much, why don't they just get the hell out. If you don't love America, even though it does have flaws, then go to Saudi Arabia or something.
The Founding Fathers were clever enough and had the foresight enough to realize that people did and would continue to think this way, and thankfully put up a nearly-insurmountable barrier against that kind of undemocratic, unAmerican thinking, Crotalus.
Land of the free comes before the part about bravery. We hold these truths to be self-evident? All men are created equal? These aren't all laws, but they're certainly part of our national soul, so to speak.
People have the right to express disgust or outrage with the American government by burning our flag. That's what being free means, that they get to determine how they protest, not you. Burning a flag neither forces another person to commit violence, nor offers a compelling argument or exhortation in and of itself that other people should act violently.
It isn't treason, it's peaceful assembly and protest. Their fist has not impacted your nose when they burn the flag.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote: The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere.
--Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787. FE 4:370
quote:God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?
--Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787. ME 6:372
quote:The people cannot be all, and always, well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.
--Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.
I couldn't remember the exact quotes, of course, so I got them from this website: Revolutions and Rebellions. It looks like it's just a personal page, but the quotes look right... and the author makes a distinction between revolution and rebellion.
-Katarain
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me,
But only to a point, right?
quote: There are always limits. As the old saying goes; your right to swing your fists ends at my nose. Free speech is the same way, you can't just yell "fire" in a crowded theater, unless there really is a fire.
I don't think these are accurate analogies at all.
Frankly, I think it is unAmerican to want flag burning to be made illegal. It goes against what this country was founded on.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Further, it is perfectly permissible in using the means of protest in evaluating the motivations and good will of the protestors. If you think burning the flag automatically makes one a bad person, then you are free to spread that message.
For example, a video showing this demonstration and lack of coercive response next to exhortations from Bin Laden to kill all those who he thinks need to be killed (the definition keeps changing) and various scenes of crackdowns on protestors from certain regimes might be a powerful rhetorical tool.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Rakeesh is a winner.
I hope these guys actions encourage people to speak up and denounce 'militant' Islam. I hope their fellow Muslims would be the first to do this....
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
I did serve in the US Navy as well (and as one of my favorite jokes, what does Navy stand for? Never Again Volunteer Yourself ) and I do think people have a right to protest in ways they see fit, such as burning a flag, a cross, a Koran, the Constitution, Belgium's flag, or a picture of a duck as long as they are doing it safely and peaceably. Along the same lines, I have ever right to protest their protest by proudly waving my American flag (or cross, Koran, the Constitution, Belgium's flag, a picture of a duck) where they are holding their protest burning a flag (and on and on). As long as they are peaceful and not using burning flags to burn down a neighborhood, then let them protest. If it makes you mad, you can simply get a bigger flag and display it proudly in front of them, just be peaceable about it.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Yeah, it's great that in our country you can burn the flag, but you can't pray in school.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
But you can't burn the flag in school.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I would not have been allowed to burn a flag in school either.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Uh... no. You can pray in school.
You can't lead mass groups, like entire classrooms and football stadiums and the entire school over the intercom, in prayer.
It's all about respecting OTHER people's rights not to pray in a manner they don't believe in or their right not to pray at all.
Students are perfectly free to bow their heads and pray whenever they feel like it. They can even meet together before and after school and during lunch if they so choose. It's forcing prayer on OTHERS that's the wrong thing.
-Katarain
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:They can even meet together before and after school and during lunch if they so choose.
Actually, under Federal law, schools can prevent religious clubs from meeting during lunch - they only have to provide equal facilities access before and after regular school hours. At least according to the legislative history of the federal bill protecting religious groups' access to school facilities.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
You can pray anytime you want. You just can't force someone else to listen to it. And since children are not allowed to leave the classroom anytime they want...
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote:Actually, under Federal law, schools can prevent religious clubs from meeting during lunch - they only have to provide equal facilities access before and after regular school hours. At least according to the legislative history of the federal bill protecting religious groups' access to school facilities.
Okay. I stand corrected. Thanks. I was thinking as I was typing that, that there might be some logistical reason why a school might not allow clubs to meet during lunch--and that's what a prayer group would be considered. But I stand by the rest of my statement.
-Katarain
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I never said you could burn the flag in school.
"Hey, I'm a lawyer. I read unnecessary meaning into things."
And why is it that if someone wants to pray aloud, that's not allowed (mmm...homonyms)in school?
Couldn't the argument be made that praying aloud is the same as talking to yourself, just don't listen if it bothers you.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's almost impossible to voluntarily not hear what is entering your ears.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I never said you said you could burn the flag in school.
And people can pray aloud in school, in any situation where students may talk freely (i.e., lunch, recess, free periods, in halls between classes) as opposed to during class when student speech is supposed to be dedicated to a particular purpose.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Since when is it okay to speak out in class in ways that do not contribute to the lesson's discussion?? It would be completely rude and arrogant to the teacher and other students if a student suddenly started praying out loud in school, and I think God would certainly agree with me there.
Also, interrupting class like that infringes on the other students' rights to learn and get an education.
It's not fair to expect other students to tune the prayer out.
Hey, I also don't think that the school should allow students to get out little mats and pray to Mecca either.
And if a student is NOT in a classroom setting, where are they? Walking down a busy hallway, praying outloud? I don't know if that's against the law, but I've never heard anybody say that it is. It just makes the prayer look really odd and pretentious. I suppose they have a right to be that way.
Or is the student praying a solitary prayer that just happens to be broadcast on the intercom system? Yeah... THAT doesn't infringe on any rights. Uh huh.
So where is this aloud praying going on? Because if you're suggesting it should be allowed in the classroom, then good luck getting anything taught in schools--it's bad enough already. Just imagine if students know that the government SANCTIONS their talking out in class.
"Dear God, why must our teacher give us such a hard test? Please, let the other students remember that the answer to number 1 is A, and 2 is B..."
-Katarain
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
/That certainly will not garner much sympathy around here. /
You were wrong about that, eh Porteiro?
/Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort./
define "adhering to their Enemies." To me flag burning and talking about toppling the government fits right in with this. To me it MAKES you the enemy.
Wanting to ban flag burning doesn't mean I don't support the first amendment. There are already limits on what you can say and do. I just happen to think that flag burning should be one of those things you can't do. And to call for the overthrow of the federal government is an act of sedition.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: You were wrong about that, eh Porteiro?
Not that I've seen. Nobody has expressed any sympathy for their cause.
The only support I've seen for them in this thread is for their right to express themselves in that way.
I haven't seen anybody applaud them for it.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
I see what your saying. I stand corrected.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
The obvious solution is to just make flame-retardent flags.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If all flags were flame-retardent, somebody would get rich by developingng and selling inflammable flags.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
<quietly puts away crates of flammable flags>
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Target, I would say you are a genius, but Porteiro is right.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Wanting to ban flag burning doesn't mean I don't support the first amendment.
Yes, it does. Burning the flag does not equal an act of sedition. Maybe in your eyes it does, but the Constitution-that document that governs our country-disagrees. It trumps you.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"If you don't love America, even though it does have flaws, then go to Saudi Arabia or something."
Oh, one of those.
There are a ton of things I disagree with America about, and things that I don't love about America, but that doesn't mean I still don't love the idea of America. I've always been one to like the idea of America more than what America really is, as I don't think at the moment we are living up to our potential, or to our mandate.
I think burning the American flag is the right of any citizen, an act to display their right of protest against an unfavorable act committed by our government. I don't think I agree with tearing, ripping and stepping on the flag. Don't ask me to pin down the difference between them, but to me burning seems somehow more clean and honorable. Isn't flag burning part of the process you have to go through to dispose of a tattered flag? I know ripping and stomping isn't.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Isn't flag burning part of the process you have to go through to dispose of a tattered flag? I know ripping and stomping isn't.
Every time I've taken part in a flag burning ceremony we first cut out the blue field so that when we burned it, it wasn't an American flag anymore.
quote:I know ripping and stomping isn't.
But cutting is.
I find burning to be just as offensive as stoping and ripping.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
To Lyrhawn:
One of those what?
And I'm quite aware that my opinion is trumped because of the way the first amendment is interpreted. That is fine. All I've been stating all along is my opinion. That first amendment rights should not protect desecrating the flag.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Why do you think the flag should trump first amendment rights?
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
I simply think it falls under a category other than free speech.
To quote myself : define "adhering to their Enemies." To me flag burning and talking about toppling the government fits right in with this. To me it MAKES you the enemy.
Consider this: If I say something about wanting to kill the president I can get in serious trouble. Free speech doesn't mean you can say or do anything.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Because apparently expressing disgust with the American government equals treason.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Expressing disgust is one thing, but to say that you want to topple it is another.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
By one of those, I meant you're a LILI, Love It or Leave It. These people tend to annoy me, as they seem more willing to kick people out who want to change something, rather than recognize a problem and try to fix it themselves. Not saying you fit into all of that, but most LILIs do.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Port, I've seen many flag-retiring ceremonies where the flag was very respectfully burned, and in none of them was the blue field cut out.
If something had been done to the flag to make it "not a flag" anymore, then in my mind there would be no reason for the very inspiring ceremony of burning the flag. You could just chuck it at that point.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Crotalus: To Lyrhawn:
One of those what?
And I'm quite aware that my opinion is trumped because of the way the first amendment is interpreted. That is fine. All I've been stating all along is my opinion. That first amendment rights should not protect desecrating the flag.
One of those Love it or Leave it types. Blind love and devotion for your country does not make a person a good citezen. America must learn to live up to all the hype and advertising. Personally I think flag burning is rather unnessasarily destructive and doesn't really do much good, but, if people want to do it as a form of protest, they have the right. Same with toppling the government. Even our founding fathers believed the constitution should be rewritten. What is wrong with objecting to a government you find disfavourable? Isn't it better than just accepting what you believe is wrong?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
And burning the flag does that, to you?
That's what you said earlier.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
To clarify, it it's done as a respectuful way to retire the flag, burning an intact flag doesn't bother me.
quote:f something had been done to the flag to make it "not a flag" anymore, then in my mind there would be no reason for the very inspiring ceremony of burning the flag. You could just chuck it at that point.
I would still find that disrespectful.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Thanks Lyrhawn. I'm all for change when it's for the better, as is any rational person. Honestly, I don't know if I fit your definition or not. I do know that I get tired of people blaming America for everything. America is not the Great Satan that some people make it out to be. We do a lot of good in the world. Have we made mistakes. Yes. And we will again. But we are not the cause of all the world's problems. I also believe that if you live in America and enjoy all the freedoms that we have, you should have a love for it, despite any shortcomings. No America is not perfect. What country is? Still, this is a land that I dearly love, and its flag is a symbol not only of the country itself, but of everything good and right about it. I realize others see it completely different. These people that desecrated the flag do not want to change America for the better, they want to eradicate it. They want to replace it with an oppressive system that will strip away freedom and require you to adhere to their ideology or be killed. I'm not for killing any of these people. But I do think they are treasonous and dangerous. I do think they should be viewed as the threat they are and removed from society. Put them in jail, give them a ticket to whatever place wants them, just don't wait around doing nothing until they try to make good on their threats.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: There are a ton of things I disagree with America about, and things that I don't love about America, but that doesn't mean I still don't love the idea of America. I've always been one to like the idea of America more than what America really is, as I don't think at the moment we are living up to our potential, or to our mandate.
A good paragraph, it sums up how I feel about America. I wish America and Americans would try harder to live up to our potential.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What about people in the 70's (might be off on the decade) who burned the flag to protest American support of apartheid in South Africa?
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
This whole flag-burning thing seems more counterproductive than anything else. "I have an unpopular anti-American opinion. I know! I'll make sure everyone else in America gets really mad at me for it!"
As far as prayer in school goes, I would think that Christians shouldn't have a problem with the restrictions. Aren't Christian prayers supposed to be held in closets and private spaces, and not for the ears of the world?
[ June 09, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Puppy ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The cost of doing as you suggest, Crotalus, is the eradiction of the foundations of that which you are attempting to protect.
You don't fight fire with gasoline.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Burning a flag is not the only way to protest something is it? Maybe it gets the point across that you are disgusted, but to a lot of people you will simply upset them because you are burning a flag. They won't care what you are protesting, only that you are desecrating something that they hold dear.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Yeah what Puppy said. He beat me to my point.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"I do think they should be...removed from society. Put them in jail, give them a ticket to whatever place wants them..."
Wouldn't it be cheaper to send you off to NorthKorea/Iran/Zimbabwe/etc where your respect for human rights will be appreciated?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Burning the Flag is a good way to preach to the converted, but is lousy for gaining new converts. Any group stumbling to that level is not one that will have much of an impact, except to infuriate the nationalists into a frenzy that the burnes will call fascistic.
Besides if we enshrine the flag or any other symbol instead of our rights, then we lose those rights to what is, after all, a piece of cloth that anyone can make and wave around.
What makes the flag special is the spirit that lays behind it. Don't confuse the cloth with the heart and blood it represents.
Pity those who desecrate it. Realize how sorry their existance is, how low they have fallen to take out their pathetic anger on the flag, but do not give them strength or voice by talking about them. What you would see as punishment is what they and their followers will see as martyrdom. They can grow strong with that. They can not bear our pity.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There is a difference between burning the flag in protest, and burning it in hatred.
When militants burn an American flag in the streets of Iran or wherever, that is totally different than say African American rights activists burning it in the 50's and 60's. Unless you are trying to make the claim that those who were protesting their lack of freedom are in fact against freedom.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: Besides if we enshrine the flag or any other symbol instead of our rights, then we lose those rights to what is, after all, a piece of cloth that anyone can make and wave around.
What makes the flag special is the spirit that lays behind it. Don't confuse the cloth with the heart and blood it represents.
That's what I wanted to say. I think of it as a "put up or shut up" kind of thing. What better test to see who truly believes in the first amendment.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree on a personal level, Crotalus. But just because there are other ways to protest does not mean we should force a person to use those other ways because we find their way offensive.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Dan Raven,
Yours is the best made point so far. My problem with this whole thing is that I find it very hard to disassociate the flag with what it represents. When it is desecrated, it is a statement against those things it represents. To me, anyway. The martyrdom point is well made, but I don't have any pity for them. And I think they might eventually make martyrs of themselves and take out a few thousand American citizens with them. It has happened before and is what we should be wary of.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Oh and I'll say one more thing Dan.
As for "They can not bear our pity." I really don't think they care if we pity them or not. I seriously doubt that pitying them has any effect at all. People like this will hate us regardless of what we do.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:When it is desecrated, it is a statement against those things it represents.
Yes, a statment. That's speech.
Also, if we outlawed things because they we're stupid and uneffective we'd really have to put some money into our prison system.
Hobbes Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"People like this will hate us regardless of what we do."
I don't believe that is true.
I also think it is dangerous to simply dismiss everyone who is anti-American as people who hate liberty and freedom, and only want to destroy America so a dictatorship can reign.
That kind of thinking is what got us into a lot of the messes we are in today.
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
Lyrhawn,
I believe it is true of this group of people. The ones in the story that I linked to--I am not generalizing to mean all Muslims. And I was not talking about dismissing everyone who is anti-American. I was talking specifically about those who are on American soil desecrating American flags and proposing to overthrow the government. When they do this sort of things in the streets of their own cities, fine. Just don't do it here and expect me to like it.
What messes are we in, btw? Are you one of those that think everything is America's fault. Sorry, I don't have an acronym for it. And I have yet to see a benign dictatorship.
Okay, I got to go home now. Peace.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I don't think so Cro. People like them love themselves and want to be seen as hero's, fighting the impossible fight to be remembered forever as the good guys. If you scream at them or fight them, you are the enemy that must be destroyed. However, they have convinced themselves that everyone else agrees with them, but are afraid, or will when they know the truth.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Pity on them shows that they are not brave and noble, and that our opposition to them is not mean or evil.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There's a fancy acronym for everything, just takes a little imagination.
And no, I don't think that everything is America's fault, though I think it is incredibly ignorant to pretend that nothing is our fault. If people want to hate us for trying to spread the ideals of America, that isn't our fault. If they hate us for invading them, then gee, don't you think there might be something to it?
If I was in a smaller country (basically every country except Russia and China) that was being pushed around by America with little to no care to what I thought, then yes, I'd be angry at America, and yes, it would be America's fault.
I don't think the USA needs to bow to every foreign demand, we still have our own national interests, our own defensive needs, but we don't have to be a prick to the entire world. Are we a world leader, or a world dictator?
Recognizing the source of foreign anger is a good way to figure out how to diffuse it, or to stop it from spreading to other places.
Ignoring the source and chalking it all up to senseless haters of freedom is a good way to get blown up.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
The day flag-burning is made illegal is the day I plan to start.
I wonder if there would be a market for toilet paper rolls with American flags printed on one side and Koran verses on the other.
Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
Something Rakeesh said at the beginning made me think: about flag-burning as a nonviolent form of protest. I think I have to disagree.
Burning something not created for burning (such as incense) actually strikes me as a rather violent form of protest. Burning something destroys it, and in this context symbolizes the desired destruction of at least some of what that thing you're burning stands for. I'd venture to say that while it might be a *less* violent means of protest (less violent than, say, a riot) it's definitely not a "nonviolent" protest. It's more violent than picketing, shouting slogans, sit-ins and a host of other protest activities.
For the record, however, I do not think it should be a banned activity. I do see it as a form of protected speech.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I don't think flag-burning is more violent than a sit-in (which deprives a person of the use of his real property) or picketing (when the picketing actually stops entrance to the property - some does, some doesn't.) Both take something from someone else, and do it by physically preventing others from using the space.
Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
Fair enough. I'd disagree, only in that fire is so very injury-making and destructive. The place the sit-inners sit or the picketers picket is still standing when the protest is over. What has been burned doesn't get reconstituted, and you never have the use of it again.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
True, but it wasn't taken from someone (I assume - pulling down the flag in front of the courthouse and burning it would go up in violence).
Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
I'll give you that. How about the implied destruction that accompanies the burning, though? That strikes me as a more violent message than the physical barrier.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yes, I think the message is more violent for sure. But I think the actual protest isn't.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Fire is only destructive when it is put to destructive use. Things that seem inherently dangerous don't have to be, just as things that seem inherently safe can be very dangerous.
A campfire isn't a threat, until you take a burning ember to someone's tent. Rope isn't dangerous, until you lynch somebody with it. It's all a matter of perspective.
It's all a matter of degrees though. You separate things into two categories, violent and non-violent, and then delve into those categories by listing them by degree of violence even further. But it never really gets you anywhere.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
FYI, flammable and inflammable both mean the same thing -- the opposite of non-flammable.
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes:
Also, if we outlawed things because they we're stupid and ineffective we'd really have to put some money into our prison system.
Actually, given the current state of our prison system, I think we'd have to outlaw it!
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
outlawing "hobbes" as an incendiarily enquiring entity is not within any act of responsible jurisprudence.
not even ...
(can't say it)
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
quote: America isnt easy, America is advanced citizenship, you gotta want it bad because its gonna put up a fight. Its gonna say, you want free speech? Lets see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil whose standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You wanna claim this land as a land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. It also has to be, one of its citizens excercising his right to burn that flag in protest. -The American President
I really like that quote.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Yep, they're idiots. Dan's right, I think. Pity is the way to go. If we outlaw flag burning, these people will see themselves as martyrs. If we shake our heads at what amounts to a temper tantrum, and permit it to continue because it harms no one, then we will at least gain respect from the outside world when they see that we tolerate hate speech against us because we value freedom.
America has committed wrongs, yes. It isn't perfect, and it never will be. But there are some things that this country has gotten very right. I love the freedom we have. I am glad to be a part of a nation that allows its citizens to burn its flag. Permitting offensive speech is at the very heart of what makes this country special. You don't like it? Tough. Go move to someplace like Saudi Arabia where they don't tolerate that sort of thing.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
when I hear
quote: Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I do think there should be a line that you don't cross when it comes to these sorts of things.
I think
quote:I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line you do not, uh--and also, Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred, uh. . .nomenclature, Asian- American. Please.
So, Crotalus, are you a Ditto-Head? There seems to be very convincing arguments that you are not addressing. I do not see you defending your position, except when you make a point about, "adhering to your enemies." I think that was addressed satisfactorily.
The constant reassertion of your opinions without addressing legitimate concerns sounds like Ditto-Head tactics. All that is left to do is to link flag-burning to 9/11.
quote: Just don't do it here and expect me to like it.
I don't think anyone expects you to like it. I think they expect you to accept it and keep it legal.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:And I have yet to see a benign dictatorship.
*sigh* they do exist, they're scattered about history. You just have to do a little looking. Not that I'm advocating this form of government, but that caught my eye and I thought I'd point out: such a thing isn't all that uncommon.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
lem, this works too:
quote: Walter : I'm sorry, Smokey. You were over the line, that's a foul. ... Walter : [pulls out a gun] Smokey, you are about to enter a world of pain.
Lebowski is soquoteable! Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"Permitting offensive speech is at the very heart of what makes this country special. You don't like it? Tough. Go move to someplace like Saudi Arabia where they don't tolerate that sort of thing."
I don't think I've heard the LILI argument work in that direction before....I like it. Not saying I'd go as far as to say move to Saudi Arabia, but I like that you're defending free speech rather than saying shut up and leave.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: America isnt easy, America is advanced citizenship, you gotta want it bad because its gonna put up a fight. Its gonna say, you want free speech? Lets see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil whose standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You wanna claim this land as a land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. It also has to be, one of its citizens excercising his right to burn that flag in protest. -The American President
Who said this?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Aaron Sorkin Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's from The American President. Good movie. And that was part of a pretty good speech.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
<quietly puts away crates of flammable flags>
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
lem, this works too: