[in slight deference to others wishes I place my feelings here]
Are you cheating on her or is she cheating on you? Are you beating on her or is she beating on you?
If its any other than those two reasons for getting a divorce, than that person is lazy, heartless, selfish, and disgraceful! Divorce is NOT the answer to just about anything.
That is my feelings and I'm sticking with them. If a person is in the United States, it only takes one to divorce. You don't have to sign or agree to anything. My feelings are softer if they say "I didn't divorce them, they divorced me." The best that can happen is a one sided action, otherwise you are part of the problem.
You shouldn't drag the process out AT ALL! In other words; you should do whatever it takes to NOT have a divorce. And then, if you did all that it took and you still have a divorce, than only let that other person have the divorce. That way you can point to the other person as the culpable party.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
It takes two to...not tango
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
How does this help? You have still refused to try and understand the situation, and you have not apologized for your rude accusations.
Deleting your posts on the other thread and reposting them here unchanged with no further explanation is not an improvement, in my opinion.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
To each there own I guess. And no, I won't appologize because I'm not sorry for what I said, only that I said it at a private thread.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Uh, yeah. What Lara said.
Here's the thing, Occasional. Who are you to judge? Are you privy to the internal and intimate workings of each and every marriage that ends in divorce? Are you all-knowing and wise? Do you honestly think you're in a position to judge - better than those in the situation - what's best for everyone concerned?
For the record, I'm not pro-divorce-as-a-solution-to-(fill in the blank). I think that a married couple should work on salvaging the relationship as much as possible, when there's no abuse, adultery, or crime. I think divorce is, for some, far too easy a solution. But to categorically judge anyone who didn't fight divorce as "lazy, heartless, selfish, and disgraceful" is extreme.
The vitriol in your post is way over the top.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
My vitrol is the way I feel about divorce and those who do it. I'm not the only one who feels that way about the subject or subjects involved. Perhaps in todays world a minority voice perhaps.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I think cheating is not always grounds for divorce. I also think there are circumstances where divorce is needed outside of unfaithfulness and abuse. And what do you constitute as abuse? Physical? Emotional? Verbal? What about if he/she is abusing your children?
And unfaithfulness? Does only intercourse count? Kissing? An "affair" with someone online?
What if you married someone (Yes, you, Occasional) and you found out several years later that she was a very successful identity thief and had no intention of changing?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I never entertained a thought of my parents getting back together (separated when I was 3). It would be the worst thing that could happen to my family that hasn't already.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
How about if you have tried everything. Counselling, advice from a religious figure, you name it, but nothing has worked. All options have been exausted. Should the couple be forced to stay together instead? Should their children be stuck sensing someone is wrong? Sometimes you cannot win no matter what...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I might've had a real father if my parents had divorced long ago.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
What it boils down to, Occasional, is that you are not all-knowing and are not in a position to judge the lives of others and whether or not they live up to your standard of whether they should be allowed to divorce or not.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Abandonment is also grounds. If he or she leaves you and just doesn't come back, Divorce is fine. But in that case, it's the abandoning party's fault and should be taken into account when dividing the couple's posesions.
I think the way we handle divorce in this country is the real threat to marriage. When you can just walk away at any time it's not the promise it's supposed to be. There should be no such thing as No Fault Divorce.
Pix
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Hmm. Do you know anyone who has actually *had* a divorce, Occ?
My parents were divorced when I was pretty young, and neither of them was beating up on each other or cheating. However, I think in this case, their divorce was by far the best option. It made life difficult at times, but it was still better than the alternative.
To dismiss divorce that doesn't meet your absurdly stringent criteria as "lazy, heartless, selfish, and disgraceful" does not help anything. It is in no way productive, and by saying such things, you're actively working against finding common ground with those who disagree with you. Pointless, in other words.
Edit: Whoops, sorry for the redundancy, Quid. This is a friggin' fast-moving thread; I was typing this before your first post. *grin*
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
"And what do you constitute as abuse? Physical? Emotional? Verbal?"
Mostly physical and sexually with only partly emotional and verbal as counting. It would have to be VERY EXTREME on the last two.
"What about if he/she is abusing your children?"
That counts as abuse, and therefore is good grounds for divorce.
"And unfaithfulness? Does only intercourse count? Kissing? An "affair" with someone online?"
I would say only a consumation or, to put it bluntly, sexual intercourse. Otherwise, it is far from too late.
"You found out several years later that she was a very successful identity thief and had no intention of changing?"
Nope, not a reason to divorce. At worst its a reason to confront the person and try to intervene, but not divorce. On the other hand, it could be counted as cheating on you because they aren't what they seem.
"How about if you have tried everything. Counselling, advice from a religious figure, you name it, but nothing has worked. All options have been exausted."
No on all of those. Unless its abuse, cheating, or (for lack of remembering to add) drugs abuse that can lead to abuse and cheating.
"Should the couple be forced to stay together instead?"
No, but they shouldn't divorce either.
"Should their children be stuck sensing someone is wrong?"
Its not about sticking with something that is wrong, but finding a way at all costs to make it right.
"Sometimes you cannot win no matter what... "
And sometimes you should never give up and never surrender.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Its not about sticking with something that is wrong, but finding a way at all costs to make it right.
And sometimes there really isn't a way to make it right.
I don't think you should be so adamant about it unless you've been there yourself.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
These two threads will give you some background about beatnix's situation if you're too lazy to look yourself. It's hurting me to see you accuse someone of being such a terrible person when I have seen him try and try and try to save this marriage.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I will remain as adamant about it no matter what. You decide now how you are going to do things and not later.
And, as we have discussed this together, my wife feels the same way. Ok, she did say I was pretty blunt about it in this thread.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Some people define marriage differently than you, Occassional. Maybe a little less concern with shrieking at other people self-righteously about how to live their lives is in order here.
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
Thank you, Ruth. I appreciate you providing those links.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I specifically did a new thread so it wasn't specifically about beatnix, although periferally it still has that connection.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I will remain as adamant about it no matter what."
You may believe this makes you appear righteous. It does not. This actually makes you appear to be a pigheaded fool.
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
While I agree to some degree with Occasional's frustration with the state of divorce today and disagree with other sentiments expressed, I think the post is over the top and unhelpful, and incredibly rude and out of place in the other thread.
However, as a separate thread, I don't believe the user agreement is being violated. Unfortunately, because it was first posted elsewhere (and even had it not been, the timing connects them), it can readily be viewed as an attack on another Hatracker.
I believe if members here choose to discuss the topic rather than any particular individuals, this thread has the possibility of merit. If that does not happen, I will lock and/or delete the thread.
--PJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The topic -- that divorce is always wrong -- only makes sense to me as a claim if indeed you believe that marriage in all circumstances is always right.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
You want me to delete my links, Moose? I'm sorry to bring beatnix in here.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
"only makes sense to me as a claim if indeed you believe that marriage in all circumstances is always right."
Yes, I do. Of course, I never said "Always" and did add in some limited reasons for it to happen.
Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
TD,
I think generally the couple feels that way, AND the parents, AND the clergy (who typically have some questioning/educating policies in that regard).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Tom has it exactly. And I can attest that there are times when it is a mistake. Perhaps you will say that it is something to consider carefully before doing it, then.
This is true. However, it's also true that sometimes people are immature when they make the decision, that societal pressure (as some unwed mothers and people, especially women, who are older than the subcultural norm for marriage often experience) can influence a wrong decision, and that people can change after marriage.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Occasional, are you married?
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Mistakes that serious need mending, not breaking. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Brinestone, yes as I said:
quote:And, as we have discussed this together, my wife feels the same way. Ok, she did say I was pretty blunt about it in this thread.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Divorce is not always wrong, Occasional, because some people enter willingly with foreknowledge into marriage having a different defintion than you do.
This being America, they're kind of allowed to do that, remember? Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Mistakes that serious need mending, not breaking. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong.
Out of interest, what about divorce is so horrible that almost anything else is preferable to that outcome?
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
This being America, I am also allowed to believe it is wrong, remember?
I have no idea what you mean in your first statement.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok, let's not make this about beatnix.
Let's make it about me.
Occasional, I fought my then-husband for a year, trying to convince him that we should stay married. I got people he listens to (as much as he listens to anyone) -- both religious leaders and friends -- to talk to him. Over the course of the year we saw one counselor for 6-7 months, and another for almost three.
Eventually I had to decide that torturing myself and my children was not going to have any positive result. Rather, I needed to resign myself to the divorce, and see if it could be possible to build a co-parenting relationship with my STBX.
It has been rough. At times, VERY rough. I have wondered if I should have fought longer; I have wondered if my kids might have been less traumatized if I had given in more gracefully.
YOU DON'T KNOW. You have not lived through the decisions I have had to make, the decisions that a friend of mine (IRL) is taking the first steps toward making.
I think divorce is an awful thing. I used to think that short of abuse or infidelity, there was never a good reason for it.
I now know better.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
TomD. the breaking up of the family and a lack of respect for the institution of marriage.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
You know better, or you just changed your opinion? As is, mine stays.
However, in answer to your question you should have simply allowed your marriage partner to do what they did. That doesn't mean that you had to have any part in the procedings. You should have fought with tooth and nail till the bitter end.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Okay, Occasional. You're LDS; let's consider an LDS scenario.
Joan is a rebellious teenager who comes from an LDS home. She gets into drugs and sex and ends up getting pregnant at 16. The father is 18. They decide to get married (they're both druggies) to raise the baby--one perhaps good choice for them.
Ten years later, missionaries tract out the family. Joan eventually reactivates and begins bringing her daughter to church. Her husband is a drunk and a total loser, and he wants no part in it. Joan is working to support herself, her husband, and her child while her husband sits on his butt all day and drinks.
Joan's daughter is baptized, and eventually Joan feels like the next step is to go to the temple. She dreams of being married in the temple, but despite her pleading with her husband, he has no interest in her religion. Meanwhile, the differences in their lifestyles are becoming hugely apparent. Joan's husband has become critical and rude to her every chance he gets, especially when Joan goes to church.
Not only that, but Joan's daughter is inevitably going to suffer from having such a non-father.
Would you advise Joan, as her bishop, to continue in a marriage she's in as a result of a bad decision she made at age 16 when she's now obviously hurting in her marriage? Or do you think it would be better for her to move on and marry someone who will support her in the life she has chosen?
The point of this post isn't to raise the LDS lifestyle above anyone else's; please don't take it that way. The point is that sometimes people change A LOT such that their lifestyles are not at all compatible anymore and never will be, and sometimes people make really stupid choices when it comes to spouses in the first place.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Brinestone, the senerio you gave is what I would consider abuse, including the drinking. However, I would not advise a divorce if that father can somehow change (and that doesn't mean particularly LDS). On the other hand, if it is apparent that he is emotionally abusive and continues to drink than there is perhaps reason to consider divorce. But NOT because their lifestyles are hugely different.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Occasional also thinks that it is
quote:justified to (in order to extract military information, of course), inflict slow, painful wounds over an extended period of time, cut off someone's genitals, and then sodomize them with a broomstick
(quoting myself querying him, an opinion which he affirmed; he thinks any measures are worthwhile in order to extract military information).
He's not concerned with what's best, will rescue people from awful situations, or what's healthy, only in a morality based on absolute positions about his own righteousness.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:You should have fought with tooth and nail till the bitter end.
That's much more about you than it is about what is best for those around you, Occassional. Sometimes assuaging your own need to fight the good fight is not the most important thing in the universe.
There is that, and your audacity in speaking to other people so bluntly and critically about situations so deeply personal about which you are so incredibly ill-informed is doing much less for your argument than you think it is.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Okay. I can accept that.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:On the other hand, if it is apparent that he is emotionally abusive and continues to drink than there is perhaps reason to consider divorce. But NOT because their lifestyles are hugely different.
Being a drunk asshole is a lifestyle.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I don't think we've sufficiently proven that the institute of marriage itself is deserving of unconditional respect.
Embrace serial monogamy. The children will survive, I swear! Divorce before you loathe each other!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:However, in answer to your question you should have simply allowed your marriage partner to do what they did. That doesn't mean that you had to have any part in the proceedings. You should have fought with tooth and nail till the bitter end.
Even though I could see (and so could others) how the trauma was harming them? Their dad had moved out a year before. They were living in limbo.
They needed an end to it, and so did I.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Being a drunk asshole is a lifestyle.
And screw you for judging me!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
And as for what I meant by the first statement, Occassional...not everyone defines marriage in the same terms as you do. Like Tom said, if they define marriage as a contract that may be broken at any time by either party, and they both enter into marriage with that definition in mind, divorce is not wrong.
Except by your standards, which they do not share. But that's not their beef, it's yours.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Screwing you is what I had in mind for after you were drunk.
The judging comes much later.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
rivka, than that person was abusing your family on an emotional level and cheating on your family by abandoning his responsibility. Fine, I'll accept that.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
"Except by your standards, which they do not share. But that's not their beef, it's yours."
Yes, so I still find it wrong and will judge them by my own ideas of right and wrong.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Judge not, lest ye be judged. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:My vitrol is the way I feel about divorce and those who do it. I'm not the only one who feels that way about the subject or subjects involved. Perhaps in todays world a minority voice perhaps.
Then why post? You aren't interested in the opinions of others and, clearly, you are mistaken in believing that others will value your opinion.
Is the only point to be nasty? Are you trying to appear "righteous?"
All I have to say to you is that your statements in this thread make think that two possibilities are in operation here:
1) Either you are so wrapped up in your own sense of morality, and haven't had any experience with the myriad ways that a relationship can be irretrievably broken, or,
2) You were so bruised by a divorce that you have blinders about it and can't see beyond your own hurt.
or both, of course.
I'm hoping #1 is not the truth, because, frankly, it just puts you in the category of "people I'd hope to never be stuck in a room with." If #2 is true, then I urge you to seek counseling to find less self-destructive ways of dealing with the emotional fallout of bad relationships. Seriously, if this attitude arises from a painful episode in your own past, I can tell you right now it is going to reak havoc with your relationships. Not because you have the mindset that divorce is not an option -- that's perfectly fine. But because you will inevitably react with rigid inflexibility in any situation that you feel threatens your relationships. I'm really hoping #2 is not the case either.
But that leaves with the perplexing puzzle of hoping that your attitude is just simply inexplicable.
Look, I hope you never are in a situation where you have to go through the pain and self-doubt of the breakup of a committed relationship. But if you do, I hope you have some way of seeing the other person's point of view, even if that point of view includes wanting the relationship to end.
There is no way for one person to keep the relationship together and healthy. It just isn't possible if both partners aren't willing and working. Period. And even if you find a partner who is just as adamant about divorce as you are, that is no guarantee of anything. Because it takes more to keep a marriage together (and healthy) than a shared aversion to breaking up.
And really, if you concentrate on all the good things that make a marriage, and find a partner who is in synch with you on the goals and commitment to making it a real cooperative effort, you won't have to worry about divorce.
Your's or anyone else's.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Judge not unrighteously lest you be judged. Different religious translation. Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Why do you have to judge anyone?
I think my own views on my marriage are similar to yours. I made my decision on who to marry very carefully, and I will not divorce my husband unless something horrible happens, like abuse or unfaithfulness, and even then I would fight to make it work.
But that's me and my husband and our marriage. It's none of my business to judge others on what they're doing with theirs because I know I don't understand everything. I can think they're getting divorced for trivial reasons, but that doesn't mean they're lazy, disgraceful, or terrible people.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Amen! Tell it, sister, tell it like it is!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: rivka, than that person was abusing your family on an emotional level and cheating on your family by abandoning his responsibility. Fine, I'll accept that.
How gracious.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Hm. Maybe I should amend that.
Unless they're Britney Spears.
Okay, so I don't know she's a terrible person. I just know I wouldn't really want her as my mommy.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Why post? Because I have something to say and will say it. Personally, I don't care if others value my opinion, but I WILL be heard.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Don't feed the troll.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
*plugs ears*
lalalalalalala
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Oh great, now we're going to have the discussion of "what is a troll."
Jon Boy Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
y'all remember my statement about there would be less burning of flags if we only ignored the people who burned them instead of getting shocked and outraged every time they did it?
Occasional is burning a flag here. Turn your attention elsewhere.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*sings*
"What is a troll? Impetuous fire; What is a mod? Ice and desire To make him gone... A thread gets locked, And then then it's done, So goes a troll, So e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-ends his fun."
*bows*
(You all remember that version of "Romeo and Juliet", right?)
Posted by BotaLadyG (Member # 7053) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Occasional: "And what do you constitute as abuse? Physical? Emotional? Verbal?"
Mostly physical and sexually with only partly emotional and verbal as counting. It would have to be VERY EXTREME on the last two.[Quote]
Being in an verbally and emotionally abusive relationship I can tell you right now that it is every bit as bad as the physical abuse that can be inflicted! I have read this entire thread and you have contradicted yourself on the "not so much verbal and emotional" soap box repeatedly. Why is that?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Occasional: "Should the couple be forced to stay together instead?"
No, but they shouldn't divorce either.
"Should their children be stuck sensing someone is wrong?"
Its not about sticking with something that is wrong, but finding a way at all costs to make it right.[quote]
So it's ok to raise your kids in an environment where all they see is a parent belittling and demoralizing the other, because they hold no respect for them and hold no regard for their feelings? Do you want to live in a world where the next generation is a bunch of self -centered and totally moraless jerks? There is NOT always a way to "make it right at all costs", especially if the abuser is not interested in anything but themselves!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Occasional: "Sometimes you cannot win no matter what... "
And sometimes you should never give up and never surrender. [quote]
Are we quoting Galaxy Quest now too?
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Now I know what King of Men would be like if he got religion Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Mistakes that serious need mending, not breaking. You don't fix a wrong with another wrong.
The number of times you have said this, or something similar, is starting to really piss me off. Not everything can be fixed. ESPECIALLY when it comes to humans and especially when it comes to relationships.
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
I've always believed that divorce, in general, is wrong.
So did my ex-husband.
Until he decided he wanted a divorce.
Funny old thing, life, isn't it?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I used to be a big proponent of eliminating "No-Fault Divorce."
Now I am very glad to have legal involvement in my divorce kept to a minimum. I have no desire to go through a court and have my wife declared "at fault" and even less to be declared "at fault" myself. And fault is certainly nebulous in my case... more than enough blame to go around.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
My understanding is that LDS Bishops are not allowed to even bring up separation, much less divorce. (They can pursue the seperation avenue after one of the spouses brings it up, but should avoid the position of possibly encouraging it.)
Divorce is wrong IN THAT the events leading up to the divorce are almost never pleasant. BUT-- divorce in the right situations can be like invasive surgery to remove tumors. Let's get that straight right from the beginning:
Divorce is a treatment, not the disease. Sometimes, with a few people, divorce becomes a symptom as well.
A few good Mormon friends of mine have been married in the temple, and then divorced. I would NEVER, not in a gazillion generations, ask them to stay in their marriages. It would be better if both parties had been able to change their lifestyles to allow their marriage to continue; but when one or both parties aren't willing, what else can be done?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Now I know what King of Men would be like if he got religion
And you also know why I dislike judgmental fundiebots.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: 1 Timothy 5:8 (King James Version)
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
So what about deadbeats? Those husbands/fathers who just bum all day and refuse to work and provide for their families (Papa -- I'm not talking about men who choose to be stay-at-home-fathers.... that is a very different scenario and one worthy of praise).
But Occasional, I'm sure you know the type I mean.
My own pastor quoted this verse to my husband (made him mad) just before he abandoned us for places unknown. When he turned up four years later, he had "married" someone in Florida. Good thing I had finally given up and filed divorce papers or else he would have been a bigamist.
FG
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:And you also know why I dislike judgmental fundiebots.
Judgmental atheibots are better?
Occasional, you need to realize that a person can't make choices FOR another person. If you are trapped in a marriage that the other person is absolutely committing to RUINING, and they are making no effort at all to make it work, there are limits to how much you should be expected to suffer.
Two good, selfless people can make just about any marriage work, if they try. And you're right that people SHOULD be that way, and they SHOULD try. The reason many people get a divorce, though, is because they're not married to that kind of person. It takes two people to make a marriage work and fix its problems. If one spouse absolutely refuses to help, then there are definitely limits to how long the spouse who IS willing to work at it should be expected to endure.
You hold up Joseph Smith's version of the line about judgment, as though its apparent exception applied to you in this case. It DOESN'T. God wants us to be discerning, and He allows for certain kinds of judgment ... such as a stake president and high council determining disciplinary action, or a bishop offering counsel about a sin. But this kind of universal condemnation of your fellow human beings — especially when you focused it on an individual — is EXACTLY the kind of unrighteous judgment that Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and everyone else who matters has warned us against.
Look to your own sins before casting stones.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
The difference between fundiebots and athiebots is that the latter are right in every particular. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Geoff, I've been so impressed with your posts lately.
Your dad doesn't want fanboys-- I'll be yours instead.
#1 Rat fan! w00t!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hmm...it has all been said for me - Occ, you are being very judgemental. It isn't pretty, and it isn't evoking anything about the gospel. Are you okay? Is there something else wrong? It's the only explanation I can think of for doing such a concrete evil as kicking someone when they are down like this.
Also, *points* - Mormon guys like this are part of what scared me away from getting married. I'd rather die.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Let's see if I can sum up.
Occasional, you have stated that divorce is wrong unless there is abuse or cheating? And the abuse would have to be physical or sexual--emotional or verbal would have to be severe to even be considered?
But then you concede that if someone is drinking and being critical, that is enough?
Or if they've left the home (and are not having relations with another) that is enough too? You called that cheating, even though you said earlier it had to be *intercourse* in order to be considered cheating?
Why are you contradicting yourself? Even you seem to be "softening" your black 'n' white view in the light of specific events. Maybe your view is wrong (even in your eyes) and you should ammend it as stated here?
Did it occur to you that the divorce that you first harped on falls *well* within your own "acceptable" definition? Then why haven't you apologized for what you wrote then erased, the horrible pain you added to already excruciating pain?
Where is your compassion, humility, and charity?
And on the subject of righteous or unrighteous judgement, how 'bout I judge you to not be a true follower of Christ based on your lack of the above? Would I be out of line in doing so?
[ June 24, 2005, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Also, *points* - Mormon guys like this are part of what scared me away from getting married. I'd rather die."
Marry a non-Mormon. I hear we're fun, especially when the alternative is death. Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Marry a non-Mormon. I hear we're fun, especially when the alternative is death.
I read this and immediately thought of Prince Humperdink's "Please consider me as an alternative to suicide".
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
No, beverly.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
And when beverly said "Let's see if I can sum up," I also thought of The Princess Bride. "Lemme 'splain. No, there is no time. Lemme sum up." (Quotation may be wrong, but concept is there.)
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
<movie_geek>
The quote was perfect, Pops!
</movie_geek>
And, I second the Geoff-love. Word to all your recent posts. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:"Also, *points* - Mormon guys like this are part of what scared me away from getting married. I'd rather die."
Marry a non-Mormon. I hear we're fun, especially when the alternative is death.
Or you can see if you get lucky and find a Mormon guy like mine. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
How would it be lucky for her to find a Mormon guy who's already married?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*grin*
Aw, KQ, I think you and KPC are perfect for each other and I can tell you are very happy, but he wouldn't be perfect for me. That wouldn't work. But that's good! It would kind of weird to have a friend who would like to marry your husband.
I've considered Tom's alternative to suicide, but have decided to take the safer, less dramatic course of refining my filters. I think it's working - my taste improves dramatically the more I date.
Posted by ChaosTheory (Member # 7069) on :
I agree that everything to avoid divorce should be done. My parents divorced and both have gone through alcohol treatment, they both agree that the alcoholic problems where a huge factor in the divorce...If they'd gotten treatment earlier they would probably stayed together...If he needs to go through treatment the best thing you can do for him, yourself and your family is helping him go through the process to quit drinking.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
if you have the commitment to go into a marriage in the first place there should be no need to leave it? thus if you were able to marry without the proper commitment then marriage then is too easy, wasn't there someone who said that the bar for marriage should be much higher then it is now?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Aw, KQ, I think you and KPC are perfect for each other and I can tell you are very happy, but he wouldn't be perfect for me. That wouldn't work. But that's good! It would kind of weird to have a friend who would like to marry your husband.
*snort*
I meant like mine in the sense that he doesn't condemn everyone who doesn't think like him. I agree, if you married someone like my darling, it would not be good, and if you wanted to marry my darling specifically, well, I'd just have to do something about that. So, yes, it's good. But I do hope that someday you find that perfect guy. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs* You are very sweet.
I definitely don't think it's time yet, though, because just reading that sentence made me want to run for the hills.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'll third the Puppy love. You've been particularly eloquent of late, even for you.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Katie, that's what the "someday" was for.
Maybe you'll be ready in this life, maybe not. But someday. Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Fourthed. Puppy
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*fights urge to pack bags and take off for parts unknown*
Maybe In the meantime, I'm enjoying being asked out by 22-year-old bodybuilders.
[ June 24, 2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Ha! Puppy Love! I loves it. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Occasional, why do you believe what you believe about divorce? What is your argument? All I see is a statement of belief.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Papa Moose: How would it be lucky for her to find a Mormon guy who's already married?
*resists polygamy joke*
*joins in the Puppy Love*
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
*is amused by polygamy joke that rivka didn't make*
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Puppy Love. Holy crap, thanks, you guys! I've been having a really rough week, and you folks just made it for me Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Okay, serioulsy, my first thought on reading Puppy/Rat's post WAAAY above was, "Wow, that sounds really wise. I wonder if Puppy's wife is pregnant?"
Don't know why I thought that. . .
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I wanna be in the Rat Squad too! LOL
As for the topic at hand, I spent just shy of 9 years living with him. Things were good for the first 3. Then we had a week from hell that ended up changing our lives drastically. We moved to a new apartment, I lost my job (and I was the main income, bringing home roughly 140% of what he netted plus covering all insurance premiums out of my gross), found out that we were expecting our second child, and got into a car accident all in the span of 6 days. I went into a fairly significant situational depression and he turned away from me. When I was dragged out of my funk by a good friend and gotten back on the right path, I did my best to pull him out of his own depression as well, but nothing I did worked. After 6 years of being ignored, neglected (emotionally and financially, part of his way of dealing with his pain was to spend every penny he earned on video games and concerts with no regard for what the family needed), and finally accused of adultery, I decided it was time to get out.
His father made the decision a lot easier for me, because by this point (late 2002, weeks before our 9th anniversary) we were living with his parents after having been told by our prior landlord that we didn't give notice of our intent to renew in time and were kicked out. I had no vehicle, I had very little furniture (because he destroyed or sold off most of what we had when we moved in with his parents), my biggest item of personal effects was my computer. So the girls and I found an apartment we could afford that was in the school district (so H could finish out the year with her friends). He stayed behind with his parents. Tried to move with us, but realized after a couple days that his clothes kept making their way back to the parents' house after he'd pack them for me to haul in my mother's car. Nope, he didn't help me out with any of the physical labor.
I will say one thing for him. He has been my primary after-school babysitter for the past 2 years. However, I think it's so he can get away with not paying me any kind of support money. Maybe I was stupid, but I agreed to waive any demands for support for any week that he provided at least 80% of the babysitting requirements. And since, based on IL guidelines and his gross salary, that would be $125 a week, he obviously thinks spending he's getting the better end of the deal (and maybe he's right). And he seems to feel that he's spending enough (and sometimes more than enough) time with them, because he has never asked if he could have a weekend day or a holiday or anything like that with them. The kids do love him, but I don't think they want to live with him.
Two weeks ago (after we've been living apart for 2.5 years), he called me late at night and asked if there was any way that we could get back together. I told him bluntly, "it's all up to you, I've done everything I'm capable of doing and I've been rebuked every time." Turns out that his parents are thinking of selling the house and buying a condo close to the other set of grandchildren (and we won't even get into the blatant inequality displayed by the grandparents towards the two sets of children), and if they actually manage to get a buyer, he's going to be homeless. So he's not coming to me with an actual desire to fix the marriage, just to ensure that he has a bed to sleep in. And the fact that he hasn't talked to me about anything, including the weather or television or anything else, since that telephone call confirms my belief that he's once again thinking only of himself.
Since he's proving by his inaction that he really doesn't mean it, I'm not even bothering to think about whether this might be something I want. I hadn't gotten papers filed yet because I just can't afford it on my salary, and my bosses don't do divorce work (not that I'd really want my bosses involved in somethign this personal, to be honest).
Believe me, if I could have my way, we never would have gotten to this point. He would have been willing and able to communicate with me throughout the marriage and we'd have had a renewal ceremony with friends and family at 10 years (since we originally exchanged vows in front of a circuit court judge in a civil ceremony) instead of my sitting at home with the kids trying to figure out how I was going to buy a car on my sole unsupported income and him having fun at yet another friggin rock concert.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You're WRONG, Goody, just plain WRONG!
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
quote:Divorce is a treatment, not the disease.
I think this was extremely well put.
Cor and I value marriage as a committment. We respect other's rights to see it differently, but we like our way. I believe it is important to not consider divorce an option. However, when my parents' marriage was obviously irretrievably broken, and she was emotionally abusing the hell out of him, and threatening to suck him into homelessness with her, I counseled him to divorce her. The marriage was over already; he could still be saved, and he needed saving. I also did everything in my own power to help him put her behind him.
[ June 25, 2005, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:"Wow, that sounds really wise. I wonder if Puppy's wife is pregnant?"
HAHAHAHA! My wife wonders where you got that idea Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I won't say I agree with his points, not all of them, but I think part of the problem is that he isn't expressing himself well at all. A lot of what he is saying has value, although not a definite, inarguable value by any means.
I personally (and this is NOT directed at ANYONE here, or anyone in particular) believe that a lot of what is wrong with society is that we all quit on things that matter too easily. If someone cheats on a spouse, or a couple argues a lot, some people pull away without even trying to work out the problems. I am not condoning these sort of actions, or saying that couples should HAVE to stay together either, just that there are a lot of things that a couple can do other than quit so easily, providing they are willing to try a little harder and not quit on each other.
I am not saying that trying to work things out is always the best option, or trying to say that I know enough about anyones particular situation to tell them what to do with their personal life. I am saying that I have seen some relationships that probably could have been saved if the first thought in one (or both) of their heads wasn't "Screw this, I am out of here!".
I had a person tell me that they were more scared when buying a house with their husband as a co-signer than they were when getting married, because " buying a house together is like forever, there is no way out of it.".
I just shook my head and said nothing, but hearing that made me sad. With that sort of attitude about marriage they were probably right, the mortgage probably WILL last longer than their life together.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Wow. I haven't had a lot of time to be around here and I guess I totally missed this thread. I definately have to at least put my two cents in as well. Occasional, i actually completely agree with you. Divorce is totally against verything I believe. But here's the thing. Sometimes there is no choice. Someone said it earlier in this thread and I'm too lazy to go look it back up but it takes two committed adults to make a marriage work. For nearly two years I have been trying to make an entire marriage work all by myself. I've learned something, It just doesn't work. All the love and commitment I have in the world can't stop someone from walking out the door every night to go sleep with someone else. All the patients and understanding in the world can't make someone getout of bed to help their children get dressed or eat breakfast, or lunch, or dinner. When you sit and watch someone hurt you and your children day in a nd day out and when it gets to the point where your kids stop even acknowledging thei own mother because they know she won't do anything for them you have to re-evaluate you position. I've been married just over six years, which means that for a third of my entire marriage I've watched the woman I love do everything in her power to hurt, abandon, and neglect the rest of us. Sometimes enough is just enough, and when it comes down to the kids, I actually think I've subjected them to this horrible situation longer than I should have. And funny enough, It's because I have refused to go down that divorce road because it's "wrong".
Here's a quick little annalogy. My sister is a vegetarian and has been for over ten years. Eating meat is "Wrong" in her view. However I can guarentee that faced with the choice of eating a hamburger or having a hot poker lodged in her heart and the heart of her nieces where they will causes her and the kids pain and sufferig as long as she refuses to eat that meat, well, she'd eat the meat. That just what I'm doing, I'm taking a bite into something that doesn't taste very good, something I don't believe in because it's what has to be done.
By the way, I am glad to hear that your wife feels the same way you do. that means you won't ever be in this situation. But not all spouses have the same level of devotion and moral strength.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
I have not read the entire thread. It's too long and I don't have that kind of time right now.
With that caveat in mind:
The casual attitude towards divorce is disturbing, but so is the misconception that everyone who gets divorced is an uncommitted, lazy, selfish person. There are many reasons that fall outside of cheating or abuse to get divorced, and until you put yourself in a position to personally deal with each situation I think that it's unfair to take such a hard-line approach.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I knew I shouldn't have opened this sucker. Surprisingly, however, the OP made me laugh instead of making me angry.
space opera
Posted by Pixie (Member # 4043) on :
**I haven't read everything in this thread yet but this is my reaction to the first and third page**
This is something I care about a lot, so while I normally wouldn't attack arguements bit by bit I'm going to make an exception here. Now, bear in mind that the belief that I plan to carry into my own marriage is that divorce is really not an option. Going into marriage with the idea that "there's always divorce if something happens" seems to invite problems or negate some of the importance of trying your upmost to resolve them. That said, I also very much understand the need for divorce in certain circumstances: my own parents are presently in the process of procurring a divorce and I frankly wish they had done this many years ago.
The idea that something physical has to be done to negate a marriage particularly irritates me. When we were younger, my father never raised a hand against my mother or siblings and I, but the emotional struggle in the house hurt far more than any slap he could have dealt. About 10 years ago it got to the point where the house we were living was no longer a home and I actually preferred staying late at school to going back. The end result is that the people I live with haven't been a family in the real sense of the word in years, though it isn't for any lack of trying.
Despite being in a marriage without respect, tenderness, or any sense of comfort, my mother spent five years going to counselors with or without my father. The idea that you can't try everything or that you should never give up... when you are miserable every day and have been trying for years and there's no hint of change it is time to stop. An unhappy marriage hurts everyone involved - the spouses, their children, and even more distant relatives and friends.
Rivka's idea of not torturing herself and her children any further is the best description of the situation I've heard. My mother has said on multiple occasions that the physical side effects of the emotional trauma would literally have killed her if she waited any longer to admit defeat. I just can't possibly be vehement enough when I say that for my parents to not divorce would be the worst thing possible for either of them, as well as for my brothers who are still too young to leave the house.
You are more than entitled to believe that for you personally, divorce is wrong and unacceptable. But to claim that that holds true in every case... you honestly don't seem to have any idea of what you're talking about.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:My mother has said on multiple occasions that the physical side effects of the emotional trauma would literally have killed her if she waited any longer to admit defeat
This is true of my grandmother who got divorced when my mom was still young. Her husband was a festering sickness in the family, made everyone suffer. She had serious health problems because of the stress he put her through. She lived in a mental institution for several years. He was constantly, sharply, cruelly critical of everything and everyone around him. He was just a caustic human being. No physical abuse, just emotional.
After the divorce she and my mom began to heal. Years later she found a kind, gentle, patient man to marry who healed the family further. Without his beautiful influence, my mother would have been a complete wreck and my grandmother probably would have suffered an early death. As it is, my mother carries deep childhood scars that still haunt her.
To this day, my blood-grandfather doesn't understand that he did anything wrong at all, and still loves my grandmother. He wishes they never divorced. To this day, he is not *really* a part of my family. I view my step-grandfather as far more my grandfather than he. It is sad for him, but that is the way it is.
There is no question in my mind that divorce was the best decision she could have made in those circumstances. I just don't know where I would be if it didn't happen.
Posted by estavares (Member # 7170) on :
Since I like to beat dead horses on other marriage-related issues, I thought I'd chime in:
Having been raised in a single-parent family for most of my childhood, and having been around during both of my mother's divorces, I do agree that divorce is a tragic and damaging process. It is the big social lie that no-fault divorce and other attacks to marriage have little effect on our children. From personal experience, you can do your very best to shield and/or help your children weather the storm (and they can still succeed) but there is baggage one must overcome. Sometimes it takes a lifetime.
I do agree that 85% of divorces out there are due to selfish behavior, the prime motivator in most of our current social ills.
Having said that, I am also grateful that divorce IS available to those whose marriages have become so toxic that it does more damage to stay together. Though I believe repentance and forgiveness and change could probably occur in 99.9% of all households, sometimes one or both parties are too drunken with their own pride to make any headway.
In all those divorces I saw, from family and friends and so on, I can't think of any of them that couldn't have been fixed without dedication and behavioral change from one or both parties (including my own mother/father/stepfather).
It's a sad thing when so much unhappiness and harm could have been prevented by thinking about others before oneself.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The children will survive, I swear! Divorce before you loathe each other!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
So, yes, it's good. But I do hope that someday you find that perfect guy. ![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Puppy