Gollum is the only character that makes any sense to me. Which is really odd. Talk about no beauty that people would desire him.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The obvious answer is Gandalf. He's above humans in many ways. He sacrificed his life for his friends, and then came back to them in a more "glorified" form.
But I don't think there's "one" Christic figure in the books.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I was going to totally come in here and blow this thread out of the water by saying the most random character I could think of. But you've gone and ruined it.
Thanks!
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
You could make a pretty convincing case that both Aragorn and Gandolf are Christ figures.
I myself am not making either of those claims, but I've heard some pretty good evidence for both.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by mothertree: Gollum is the only character that makes any sense to me. Which is really odd. Talk about no beauty that people would desire him.
Yeah, but Gollum wasn't desirable or even redeemable. Aragorn fits that description better, I think. At first, no one thinks he's anything special—they just see a grimy wanderer. Then he keeps doing amazing things, and people start thinking, "Who is this guy?" And when he saves Minas Tirith and becomes king, it's like a thief in the night.
Posted by Avin (Member # 7751) on :
Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn all demonstrate different Christ-like attributes. Aragorn depicts the kingly aspect of Christ, Gandalf the prophet, and Frodo the priest.
The best answer though is that Tolkien would object to anyone reading someone to be a Christic figure, because he wrote all his "heroes" to conform to different ideals of his perception of heroism and goodness, which as a Christian, is ultimately based in Christ.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
But Frodo gave in to temptation. I think he's more the "everyman" that in Tolkien's view will ultimately sin and need to be saved. Gandalf and Aragorn make better cases for being Christ-like.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
I would have to vote against Frodo. He represents Humanity. Small frail being who struggles with the temptation of using the "ultimate" power, even though he knows it will lead to his destruction.
It’s hard not to choose Gandalf with his return from the dead, and his unwavering goodness. His desire to help those in need.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
RE: frodo's temptation
I think you could make a parallel to Jesus crying out "Why God, have you forsaken me?" when he was on the cross (much akin to Frodo falling to temptation near the end).
Maybe a more knowledgeable person than I could defend Sam as a choice...
-Bok
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Since Tolkien detested allegory the correct answer is "No one."
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Tom Bombadil
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote:Originally posted by TL: Tom Bombadil
No, I'm pretty sure Christ made it into the movie version of the book he was in.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
Gandalf for sure.
He has mystical powers, he's mysterious, wise, he dies and comes back. Etc etc... Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Since Tolkien detested allegory the correct answer is "No one."
And most people would agree that the author's opinion, while important, is ultimately meaningless in these types of discussions. You may not intend a theme or allegory, but that doesn't mean your work doesn't have one. Symbolism is usually even less of a conscious decision. I would say the only way an author could say that a character isn't a Christ symbol is if they have never heard of Christ. Even then, there's still the savior archetype that the Christ story itself is heavily influenced by.
Nobody creates literature in a vacuum. The stories of mankind, especially the "important" ones touch each and every aspect of our creations. To deny this is silly, IMHO.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I don't think any of them are Christ-figures except in the general sense that Christians are called to imitate Christ.
Tolkien's beliefs and manner of looking at the world would not mistake elements of Christ's story or character (resurrection, miracles, kingliness, etc.) for Christ himself. To him, Christ was the Incarnation of God, and only that essential element would qualify one to be Christic. And since no one else was that, no one else would be Christic.
Christ isn't someone who did some cool stuff. He's the second Person of the Trinity. Every single thing ever written about will reflect some element of that, because God is the underlying fact of the world to Tolkien. Granted, sometimes the element may not be readily detectable, and sometimes the superficial similarities will be overwhelmingly suggestive, but to Tolkien these would account for such a miniscule percentage as to make comparisons between one and another meaningless.
1000 isn't very different from 1 when you compare both to Avagadro's Number, let alone infinity.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I think it's generally agreed that The Lord of the Rings is not an allegory—that is, characters and events do not have a one-to-one correspondence to something else (like much of The Chronicles of Narnia). I don't think Tolkien ever denied there was symbolism in LOTR (in fact, I remember reading in his letters that Galadriel was very much symbolic of Mary, mother of Jesus, and that Tom Bombadil was symbolic of the disappearing Oxford countryside), but there's a big difference between symbolism and allegory.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I was thinking more in the sense that most stories have a Christic figure.
What I've thought in the meantime is that there was a reflection of Christ in most of the characters.
The reason I chose Gollum to start with was thinking about how he took the evil upon him and in perishing cause the defeat of evil. Though it doesn't seem to have been his intent, and I can certainly understand why many would see this as repellant.
Frodo withstood the temptation, which I would compare more to Christ's temptation after the fast of 40 days. I guess Galadriel also goes through this. But hers seems like a one-off while Frodo has to deal with it the whole journey. So I think his is more the enduring pain aspect of Christ.
I think Sam has the most characteristics of compassion, gentleness and mercy.
Gandalf is Gandalf, Aragorn is Aragorn. No real challenge there. One characteristic I like in Merry, Pippin and Boromir is the loyalty.
Gimli had a beard and Legolas could walk on water.
Dags definitely has a point that as a conscious Christian, Tolkien did largely avoid having a clear Christic figure in the sense that a Disney cartoon tends to. But I think there is something deeply true about there being a reflection of Christ in every person.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by mothertree: Legolas could walk on water.
Yeah, FROZEN water. Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Nerds.
Posted by Diana Bailey (Member # 8313) on :
Tolkein insisted that TLOR was not an allegory, and certainly there is no single Christ figure. Yet I remain convinced that Sam has many qualities that are Christ-like, not the least his humanity. His willingness to bear the burdens of others, no matter what the cost to himself is very much in line with the idea of Jesus as "suffering servant". But it is Sam's faith which is most extrodinary and worth quoting in full:
" Sam struggled with his own weariness, and he took Frodo's hand; and there he sat silent till deep night fell. Then at last, to keep himself awake, he crawled from the hiding place and looked out. The land seemed full of creaking and cracking and sly noises, but there was no sound of voice or of foot. Far above the Ephel Duath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: the was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by Frodo's side, and putting away all fear he cast himself into a deep untroubled sleep."
Finally, Sam could carry the Ring without corruption. He seems, of all the characters, to be the most Christ-like. And who less likely?
Posted by Palliard (Member # 8109) on :
I'm suprised nobody proposed this: Boromir.
Boromir is tempted by power, but ultimately sacrifices himself to save everyone. His memory is later dredged up to get people to martyr themselves in a hopeless endeavor.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I agree that Sam's willingness to serve is Christ-like. But there are other Christ-like characteristics he is less reflective of. For example, he wants Gollum killed or sent away. Although he ultimately shows mercy on Gollum when he has him at his mercy, his earlier desires are the antithesis of "let he who is without sin throw the first stone."
Gandalf certainly reflects the mercy aspect better than most other characters: he does not destroy Sarumen when it's clear he might be able to. He prevents Gollum from being put to death when taken by Aragorn. Frodo also shows mercy to Saruman and attempts to show mercy to Wormtongue in the Shire.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Tom Bombadil
Crap. You stole my funny. While I slept!
Posted by StickyWicket (Member # 7926) on :
wormtounge
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
You're missing the most obvious one: Bill.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I agree with Belle - there isn't one.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
If I was a Christian (or, if there was a Christian Religionn that revolved around what I thought would be kinda nice ), I would like to say Frodo, simply because he's so "human" and yet also great.
But I suppose that automatically takes me back to Atheism.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
), I would like to say Frodo, simply because he's so "human" and yet also great.![[Smile]](smile.gif)