I'm curious about the children's market for books, specifically fantasy.
How do you know if a work is for middle-grade readers, young adults, or some other category? What are all the different categories? I've looked for "definitions" and can't really find consistent ones.
For example, young adult seems to be mainly the upper teen years, at least perusing the YA section in the library shows me books that deal with a lot of subject matter I'd rather my pre-teen not read about just yet. But she's bored with the types of books that seemed geared to her age group, the middle schoolers.
Am I alone in thinking that there should be good books with complex plots and characterization beyond two-dimensional stereotypes geared toward the middle schooler that doesn't foray into graphic sex or other adult situations?
For example, I read a book by Tamora Pierce called Trickster's Choice which I really enjoyed so I gave it to Natalie for Christmas. Nothing in there was objectionable, and it was a great read with a strong female hero. She loved it as I expected she would. Not thinking I needed to pre-screen the sequel, I bought it for her, and then read it when she was finished, only to find that the character engages in pre-marital sex at age sixteen and there is content that I really didn't want my 12 year old reading.
Natalie's exhausted most of the books I think you guys would recommend for her, Harry Potter, LOTR, Narnia, Ender's Game. She loves fantasy, but how do I select fantasy for her, without pre-reading everything? Unfortunately, I just don't have time to do that, the kid is a voracious reader, and is bugging me right now to take her back to the library. I wish I could say "Just get anything from the YA section" but I obviously can't!
It's very frustrating, for me and for her.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I loved the Pyrdain Chronicles (The Book of Three, The Black Cauldron, etc.) by Lloyd Alexander when I was that age.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Mark Twain, Jane Austen, and Agatha Christie should hold her for a while. Everything they wrote would be fine.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I sometimes find books in BOTH categories (i.e., inside the children's section AND outside it). Some of the categories are vaporous.
The nice thing is, YOU don't decide the category. You just write the story. The rules for YA and for children's are the same, in practical terms - high interest, very clear, tight point of view, a child hero.
And when categorizing, here's the key rule: The hero is two years older than the intended audience. This isn't ALWAYS followed, but it usually is.
In my review of Tamora Pierce, I did warn readers about that premarital sex thing. It's legitimate as a cultural thing - they live in a society that allows it - but I found it to be an irritating choice. Still, you can make it positive by having a good conversation with your child about how WE don't live by those rules and why (which of course I'm sure you did).
Here are a few other suggestions: Hilari Bell. Shannon Hale (I'm about to review "Princess Academy" and despite the sappy-sounding title it's a brilliant book in every way). Patricia McKillip.
Don't overlook Peter and the Starcatchers. Strong female characters take part, and it's a wonderful thick read. There is a huge brassiere in it, but that's as close to sex as it gets <grin>.
I'd suggest my own Enchantment and Magic Street, though they're not for children per se - at least everybody who has sex is MARRIED <grin>.
And don't give up on Tamora Pierce. The sex WASN'T explicit and she doesn't have all her characters do that.
Stay away from Philip Pullman or make sure you read him yourself first - his famous trilogy is so anti-religious in the last volume that you want to be prepared for the discussion you'll have - at the very least about how organized religions aren't necessarily evil.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Thank you, Uncle Orson. You picked up on the fact that my question was two-fold - How do I find good books for my daughter, and Does the story I'm working on have a potential audience?
I'm not really worried about publishing, I figure if it's good enough to be published, it will be. And now, when it's not finished, is not the time to be doing market research anyway.
But my struggles with finding good things for my daughter do have me thinking, do young adult publishers look for these types of adult situations? In other words, do they assume that's what kids want to read?
In a lot of the descriptions of the young adult categories, you find things like "subject matter should be of concern to this age group, stories should be about common struggles teenagers face." Do the publishers believe sex and drugs in the story are necessary in order to "connect" with young people today?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I don't know how many books they have rated, but it might be able to give you some idea of what questionable material a YA book might have.
Also, just as a note, I don't think that there are many YA or "teen" books that feature drugs. Sex, yes, (although not vivid), but not drugs.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Belle, have you started her on David Eddings' books yet? I'm trying to think if there was anything objectionable in the Belgariad, and can't think of anything offhand. And has she read the Anne of Green Gables books? Or pretty much anything by Madeleine L'Engle?
There are times I wish Christian was a girl. He enjoyed Ender's Game, but won't touch Anne of Green Gables or any of Jane Austen's books. Not that I blame him.
Posted by reader (Member # 3888) on :
I've found quite a lot of YA fantasy that's relatively 'clean'. Dianna Wynne Jones, for example, and she's written quite a lot of books. Tamora Pierce's "The Circle of Magic" and "The Circle Opens" quartets are clean. Patricia Wrede is fantastic; she wrote the Enchanted Forest Chronicles (four books) as well as several other, more YA (but still fine in terms of "adult" content). Vivian Van Velde (she also writes horror, but I haven't read any of that)Most of Anne McCaffrey's books have adult content, but she wrote two books - DragonSinger and DragonSong - that are really good YA reads.
Also, there's quite a lot in the children's section that I found enjoyable all through my teenage years, and still do; E. Nesbit, Edward Eager, Lloyd Alexander (not just the Prydain books), Joan Aiken (I can't remember if her books are fantasy, but they are set in an alternate England. The style is political intrigue with accompanying murders and the conditions of children working and factories and such is often a central aspect of the books, but violence is definitely not glorified, and though I might hesitate to let an eight year old read them, I think they're fine for a twelve-year-old.) The Mennyms series by Sylvia Waugh is also good (placed in the juvenile section, but far, far from childish) as is the Borrowers series by Mary Norton. (The last two aren't typical fantasy, but involve full-size, living dolls and tiny people, respectively.) Diane Duane, whose first book I picked up because the title was so great (So You Want to be a Wizard?) There are quite a few books in that series by now, all great. The Indian in the Cupboard series, by Lynne Reid Banks, is in the juvenile section, but can definitely be enjoyed by teens, and she's written a couple of other great fantasy books as well. Brian Jacques writes the Redwall series, where there isn't any magic, exactly, but the universe is definitely a fantasy one, as the world is one that is populated by mice, rats, badgers, moles, squirrels, hares, etc, waging epic battles against each other. The books are much, much better than they sound; I'm not doing them justice at all in my explanation. But I've found that boys tend to like these books more than girls, even though I loved them. The Wrinkle in Time series by Madeline L'Engle is great, though some of her other books are not.
Hope there are some books in that list that your daughter hasn't read!
Also, does your daughter like Science Fiction as well, or just fantasy?
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
Tamora Pierce is pretty awesome. I started reading her stuff when I was a preteen as well, and I rather thought her premarital sex stuff was not at all explicit. You could try... ummm let me look up her name... Amelia Atwater-Rhodes. She started writing books when she was fifteen or sixteen and (based on her romance scenes) is still sexually pure as of her latest novel.
Margaret Peterson Haddix writes some good speculative fiction stuff (though it's not strictly fantasy), and is generally shelved with children's fiction at my store. One of my favorites of hers is Running Out Of Time in which the main character lived to be something like ninety and then tried an experimental drug to make her young again. It made her grow a year younger every year backwards, but with each year younger, she forgets everything past that point in her first life, and she doesn't know what will happen when she becomes a baby.
Who else have I liked recently? Once Upon a Curse by E. D. Baker. It's about a princess whose family has been cursed that after they turn sixteen if they touch a flower, they'll turn nasty and ugly from then on, and she's trying to find a cure.
There are also plenty of fantasy books intended for and marketted to adults that don't have any sex at all. For example, the David Eddings books would be fine. I read The Diamond Throne when I was eleven or twelve, and I thought Sparhawk was so awesome. And his princess, when they finally got her un-poisoned, was pretty strong too. I might be misremembering, so you may want to screen that one, but....
She's probably already read the Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patrici Wrede, but if not....
Inheart by Cornelia Funke is just terrific and amazing.
Gail Carson Levine is also worth checking out. And nothing like the movie of Ella Enchanted. Ugh! Her Two Princesses of Bamarre made me cry and feel hopeful simultaneously and like Wrede, she's just too funny!
And Lemony Snicket, of course (though the beginning is a trifle slow).
Just searching around Amazon, it looks like Vivian Vande Velde is in the same boat, though I haven't read her.
There's The Princess Bride, of course. I just finished rereading that.
Anything by Diana Wynne Jones. She wrote Howl's Moving Castle, and Dogsbody, which was the only book my brother loved until he was at least fourteen.
Dragonsong and Dragonsinger by Anne McCaffrey were both perennial favorites for me around that age, though Dragondrums has the same sort of sex-scene as Trickster's Queen.
There is also Robin McKinley's Blue Sword and her Hero and the Crown, though both of those have the same sort of truncated-you-know-they-get-physically-involved-scene, though Hari marries her king immediately afterwards and Aerin goes home to Tor.
There's plenty out there even so. Remind me later, and I can probably come up with some more titles.
However, I do feel compelled to say that no matter what your daughter reads, she knows you disapprove of teenaged and pre-marital sex and nothing that she reads that takes place in a completely fantastical world is going to make her forget that you disapprove. At some point, she's going to read what she wants and at some point (very likely after that), she's going to start doing whatever she wants. I admire that you're reading her books so that you can discuss them sensibly with her and talk about why you disagree with the things you disagree with, but she is going to have to make up her own mind about things eventually.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
She's read McKinley's Hero and the Crown and didn't like it. Lemony Snicket's stuff intested her for the first couple of books but she's bored with it now.
Howl's Moving Castle is on my list because Olivet recommended it to us, but my library's only copy is out right now.
I've read all Anne McCaffery's stuff and while it's not terribly explicit, it's not high on my list to start her with right now.
dean, I'm well aware that kids grow up, but this is not a case of me not letting her read stuff she wants to read. She herself is not comfortable with it. When we talked about Trickster's Queen she was the one who said she wished the author had left out the part about Ali having sex with Nawat before they married. In fact, she made the very intelligent point "It wasn't necessary to the story for them to have sex at all, they could have just ended it with them being engaged and that would have been all we needed to know."
She's only 12, and she's totally not ready to be reading about that kind of stuff, nor does she like to read it. She's also smart enough to pick up what things are important to the story, and what things aren't. I know that what OSC said is true, in Ali's culture that sort of thing wasn't a problem, but neither I nor Natalie understand why it needed to be an issue brought up by Pierce at all.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I'll third Eddings. I know you're not a big fan of his, Belle, but I think he's great for young readers. My nephew is 12, has read LotR 3 times now, but still loves Eddings as well.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
If she has a problem with it, then that's something totally different. =D
I mean, if we don't let kids read about anything we don't approve then, well, you know, what is there left?
My Mom didn't want me to read The Outsiders because of the teenaged smoking and well, the killing of that kid, Randy?
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
The librarian once told my dad that the Tolkien books were inappropriate for me when I was 13 and Dad made me put them back.
Oh, and my mom took a book of stories by Edgar Allen Poe away from me when I was 13.
I think I spent that summer reading Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes instead, nobody seemed to mind me reading those books.
Most of the books mentioned in this thread are just wonderful. Now I want to go to the library.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Maybe I'm weird, but my books were never screened. I read the Hardy boys till I was about 10, but by then I was also reading OSC and John Grisham. From there I read Sidney Sheldon, Dean Koontz (I can't believe I read Koontz in 3rd grade), and some others.
From then on, I read a mix of YA and regular novels till I outgrew YA (although I still occasionally reread Judy Blume and the "Wrinkle in Time" books).
I turned out all right.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I do remember my mother taking Clan of the Cave Bear away from me when I was twelve.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
My stepmother recommended it to me when I was fourteen. My mother was completely unfamiliar with it, so it passed. =D
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Most of the books i read are young adult books. Perhaps I can compile you a list of some fantastic books I've read. For example-
Blue Girl. Great book. No sex, just a lot of faeries and a ghost.
i just finished this EXCELLENT BOOK called Maximum Ride which has all this winged kids in it. I really liked that book a lot.
Stay away from the excellent Fire-us series, unless you want to get seriously freaked out. It was one of the best series I've read, but very, very disturbing.
Wise Child is one of the best books I've ever read, but it has a bit of witch craft in it, still, it's a beautiful book. I read it when I was around 12. That book and Seventh Son were some of the most influenctial books for me, as well as the whole Wrinkle in Time series. There's just so many books i've read, I can't think of them all... Elfquest is great, but it might have a bit too much sex and violence... very mild, still it makes me cry...
How about the Nausicaa of the Valley of Winds manga by Miyazaki? Lots of violence, but no sex, and man, is it AWESOME.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Then again, my mom was 5 and 6th grade reading teacher, so maybe she was screening without telling me.
That's the kind of thing she'd have had to have done. I don't take direction well, and if I had been banned from certain books/authors, I would have found a way to read them anyway.
That's it, I'm calling her to ask.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
My ex-stepmother and father used to take away my John Saul books. That made me so angry, since I bought them with my own money and it was such a brief phase I was going through.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I am getting lots of great ideas....Matthew is reading TONS this summer so I need to keep them coming.
quote: Am I alone in thinking that there should be good books with complex plots and characterization beyond two-dimensional stereotypes geared toward the middle schooler that doesn't foray into graphic sex or other adult situations?
No, you aren't alone! I have no doubt I will buy your book ( Am I to understand you're writing one?).
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Check out the John Bellairs horror/mysteries. A lot of old school witchery-type stuff, so may not be appropriate that way (though nothing is explicit), and considering what your daughter has read already, it may be below her reading level (and therefore unable to keep her interest).
I recommend checking out the the series of 3-4 books that start with the book "The House With the Clock in Its Walls".
-Bok
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Tamora Pierce does tend to have her characters, as they grow up, fall in love and, I suppose, have off-page sex, usually pre-marital. The first books of any of her series' are usually the cleanest- as her characters get older, they fall in love, and, depending on the character, have some sort of relations. My favourites were the Alanna Series, but I think (although I honestly have no idea) there might be something (completely off-page, though, and not at all explicit) in the second book. Tamora Pierce, as it goes, is pretty good at keeping her "sex-scenes" (such as they are) mostly suitable for children.
Birth control does come into it.
'The Wild Magic' series is clean (I'm fairly sure). In the last scene (or almost the last scene) of the last novel there is a bit of somewhat intense... hugging? feeling? kissing? It's definately a far cry from sex though, and the characters, I'm fairly sure, do plan on marriage.
As far as I know, Protector of the Small and sequels is clean up to and including the third book. The character is younger, so, no sex.
Moving on, The Hero and the Crown is perhaps the more adult of the two books by Robin McKinley. I certainly didn't like it so well at twelve. 'The Blue Sword' is simpler and more gripping for a child of twelve.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
Yeah, Alanna gets involved with Prince Jonathan in the second book, In the Hand of the Goddess.
El JT, what did your mum say?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
re: not prescreening books your kids read. I read Heinlein's Friday when I was 16, I think. My dad had read the book, but he did not screen anything I read, and perhaps at 16, he didn't think it appropriate to do so. I (now) disagree with him, if that was his thought. I remember very distinctly that some of the ideas I got out of that book (as well as other late Heinlein books) sounded good and would obviously work if people weren't so hung up about sex. So I set out to prove they were okay.
Today, I'd fully refute, with painful experience, why they are not a good idea for Real Life, though they do make for a stimulating story. The stories weren't the only influence, certainly, but they were an additional influence that made a difference in my decision making.
JK Rowling is, I believe, fully cognizant of the influence story telling has on how we think. It's the main theme of Chamber of Secrets, if you ask me.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
romany, I'm writing but more for fun, I'm focused on school. Right now I think it's appropriate for my daughter's age group, but like I said I don't know exactly what publishers are looking for.
There are some great suggestions, here and I appreciate it.
Pierce did do a good job in that the sex was not explicit, and yes, birth control was brought up. I didn't mean to be too highly critical of Pierce, because I think she does do a good job in writing heroic stories from a female point of view. I would have no problem with Natalie reading Pierce if she were, say, 16. Of course, we'd talk about how premarital sex, no matter how responsible, is still something not recommended nor do I approve of it, but in the context of the story, it was culturally appropriate and I don't expect Nat to only ever read about characters that share our views of morality.
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
The Hero and the Crown won the Newbery, so clearly some pretty influential people think it's a children's book. The Blue Sword was a Newbery Honor book.
Phillip Pullman doesn't seem very threatening to me, maybe because I found it's commentary on religion too stupid to be worth caring about. Maybe it means more to people from different Christian traditions, but to me it was just the lame straw man attack of, "Assuming God is a totally ancient raving lunatic, wouldn't it be a good idea to go kill him? Especially if you get cool magical creatures on your side." The "hero" out to kill God, Lyra's father, was a pretty unsavory, unadmirable guy, IMHO, so I have little concern that young people reading it are going to say, "Hey! Let's go kill God!". Besides, my kids will have a much better understanding of dark matter and electricity....
Don't forget Heinlein's juvies, like "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", and then a book I LOVED at age 12 was "This Place Has No Atmosphere" by Paula Danziger. It's not great science fiction, but I used to read it over and over again. I found the characters very easy to relate to.
Posted by HandEyeProtege (Member # 7565) on :
Another quick recommendation for YA fantasy that I loved at that age (and still enjoy today): The Dark is Rising series by Susan Cooper - nothing objectionable in there. And I'll second the praise of Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles. I recently picked them up again and, despite realizing that they're geared towards a younger audience than I had remembered, still like the story just as much.
I think Harry Potter is really helping to raise the bar on children's fiction - Rowling doesn't hold back on plot or characterization, even though her primary audience is young.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
She read and loved The Dark is Rising. She enjoyed the Redwall series but it's a little young for her now. She just finished Inkheart and Thief Lord and liked them both.
I feel good that many of the books she's already read and enjoyed are being mentioned here - it says that my daughter has good taste if she likes the same things Jatraqueros do. Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I liked Heinlein's Citizen of the Galaxy. I stole it from a teacher. =D
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I never saw the Religion in Philip Pullman's trilogies, even as a fourteen-ish year old.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm fairly certain the Trickster's Choice series was aimed at a 14 year old audience, so it completely makes sense a twelve year old didn't like it. She might like the Alanna series more, I'm pretty sure the sex, which consists of the line, "and at night Jonathan taught her how to love." Will go right over her head, it probably would have gone over mine if my mom hadn't explained it to me.
I hesitate to recommend David Eddings if Tamora Pierce bothers her. The Mallorean has quite a bit of sex in it. Not explicit to me now, but when I read it at 12 I was quite shocked. Some of it's central to the plot, and some of it is the characters behaving completely in character, but my mind didn't really get beyond the "They're having SEX!!!!" shock to realize that until I was at least 15. Of course, they're some of my favorite comfort reading now (not because of the sex) so I won't tell people not to read them.
I just read an absolutely amazing YA book, East by Edith Pattou. It's a retelling of an old folk tale and it's interesting and funny with believable characters and a believable world. I was so excited when I found it. Completely age appropriate for any age as well.
I've also recently read The City of Ember[i] which was alright, not as good as [i]East but you can't have everything. It's clean as well.
If she hasn't read E.L. Konisburg's The View From Saturday she has to. It's one of the best books I've ever read.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I never saw the Religion in Philip Pullman's trilogies, even as a fourteen-ish year old."
*blink* How could you not? Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: "I never saw the Religion in Philip Pullman's trilogies, even as a fourteen-ish year old."
*blink* How could you not?
I did. I thought it was more about the sort of people who talk about being righteous, yet would do horrible things like ripping apart a child's soul to save the world from what they think of as evil.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
I love Tamora Pierce.
The Wild Magic series doesn't have any sex in it. Neither does the Protector of the Small series. The closest it comes is a mention of two secondary characters living together without being married. It does have some pretty horrific images of dead children in the last book, however.
Sabriel and its sequels are very good. I don't specifically remember any sex, but I can't promise that there isn't.
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: I'd suggest my own Enchantment and Magic Street, though they're not for children per se - at least everybody who has sex is MARRIED <grin>.
Well, sort of.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Some Garth Nix books are pretty dark (Sabriel, Lirael, Abhorsen), but the Keys to the Kingdom series is much less so.
I loved Margaret Mahy when I was Natalie's age (still do). Most of my other favorites have already been mentioned. Has she read Madeleine L'Engle? One of the Poly books does have premarital sex and homosexuality is an issue - I can't remember which one.
quote:Why do you have so much sex and/or violence in your books? Why do you have teenagers engage in unprotected sex and have babies at such a young age? Why do you have arranged marriages?
Whenever I'm asked these things, I have to ask in return how familiar people are with the Middle Ages. Because I like to start from our real world with pretty much everything I write, my treatment of these topics is, for the most part, drawn from the historical world. (There are two exceptions, which I'll get to in a moment.)
Up until fairly recently (as in, the 1800s), people in their teens were adults. From the beginning of time people 14 and older, depending on their physical development, married, had children, and supported them as best as they could. People in my books actually start engaging in sexual behavior and child-bearing several years later than they would have done in years past. Alanna put off having children for some years: she's a rare case. Thayet and Kalasin know their duty is to produce heirs for their husbands as soon as they can, and queens have risen and fallen on not just their fertility, but their ability to have boys. (Look at Eleanor of Aquitaine's first marriage and the wives of Henry VIII.) Sometimes marriages were contracted when at least one of the two people involved was still an infant. Such marriages were considered binding.
People, especially commoners, were far more casual about sex in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Sexual humor and shenanigans were popular in entertainment (time to re-read Shakespeare, Boccaccio, and Chaucer). Until Christianity had a lock on the European world, people had sex as part of religious ceremonies as well as for the sake of just plain fooling around. It got sticky if someone got pregnant, but they had crude ways to avoid pregnancy, families would pressure a man to marry a girl if he got her pregnant, or if they didn't want him to marry the girl, he had to help pay for the child's rearing. Of course there were rotters who didn't meet their social obligations, just as there were women who resorted to abortionists, but overall sex outside marriage was not considered a big deal. Marriage, as I've mentioned elsewhere, was about business, not about love, and a wife's chastity was necessary only when it was necessary to establish the husband's bloodline. (Me, I far prefer the system in which inheritance is passed through the mother, because she's the only one who can obviously be pointed out as the parent. There are still cultures nowadays in which inheritance comes from the mother's family. In Judaism you are still reckoned a Jew if your mother was Jewish.)
Why unprotected sex? My characters, being practical girls, choose to avoid pregnancy and family responsibilities for a time. In a fantasy realm, at least, I can produce methods of contraception that work a lot better than the old ones. Lambskin condoms, douches for after sex, interruption, and a sponge all have been known to fail. There is one big difference between my fantasy worlds and our real one: fewer STDs. In fact, STDs don't really start showing up in literature until after the discovery of America, when syphilis arrived in the old world. In the Tortall universe, there is no equivalent to the Americas. In my Emelan universe, they have just begun to explore the lands to the far west, and even if syphilis does arrive, the medicine of that universe is so much more sophisticated that I can't imagine it would take them long to eradicate it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I'd suggest my own Enchantment and Magic Street, though they're not for children per se - at least everybody who has sex is MARRIED
You know, as much as I liked Magic Street, this particular device struck me as the most cynical and jarring element in the book. It was impossible for me, when reading it, to think anything but, "In Card's universe, this character who is literally the embodiment of good is so unable to sleep with someone to whom he's not married that he'll marry someone he doesn't love when he may well love someone else just because sex with the former is necessary for another reason. Even while the person he's marrying is mocking the entire affair and calling it a sham marriage to his face."
It was actually profoundly depressing, because it presented a worldview in which sex without marriage is worse than marriage without love.
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Tanith Lee. I find her kind of hard to read as an adult, but it reads like some of the stuff I liked when I was 12.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Heh. Tanith Lee. I first read The Black Unicorn when I was in fifth grade, I think.
(whoosh)
Went right over my head. Rereading it later, I understood it, but she uses some vocabulary and wording that was just confusing to me.
Loved Tamora Pierce, and even in 8th grade, her sex scenes pretty much went right over my head.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Some I have liked:
Lois Lowry (J, really more for girls, but funny. Not fantasy) Tripods The Day No Pigs Would Die I wish I could remember the author: Robert someone, English, wrote a great one about trying to survive in a tyrannical UK, and stuff about WWII.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I like Garth Nix. There's nothing in the Abhorsen series except mention that Sabriel's father slept with a woman to produce Lirael, but it's not explicit or anything. I'm sure Nat could handle it okay.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I like Diane Duane's Young Wizard series, although I haven't read the last couple yet.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I found that most YA books were written at a reading level that was comfortably easy by the time I was in 5th or 6th grade, so I read them at that age whether they were appropriate or not. By the time I was in HS, I was pretty much reading anything I liked, and my mom didn't even bother trying to keep track of it (because there would have been no way she could; I spent every afternoon at the library.) So I read a lot of trash that probably wasn't all that appropriate, as well as some really good stuff. I wish there had been stuff dealing with the things I wanted to deal with at that time in my life written at a level that suited me. (I suppose that's a niche market, since I was reading at a college level by 6th grade.)
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I loved Dogsbody (by Diana Wynne Jones) when I was younger. In the book different luminaries rule over regions of space. Sirius (who we see as the Sirius constalation) was wrongly convicted of a crime and was sent to earth as a dog as punishment. The story focuses on what his life on earth...and his attempt to clear his name (with a bit of help from Sol, the Luminary of Earth's sun). I doubt you will find it in a bookstore...since it is prob around 15-20 years old, but they have it on amazon.
I would recommend all the other adults on hatrack to read it as well. I really is a great story.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: I like Garth Nix. There's nothing in the Abhorsen series except mention that Sabriel's father slept with a woman to produce Lirael, but it's not explicit or anything. I'm sure Nat could handle it okay.
Just a warning: Shade's Children has a number of references to teenage characters sleeping with each other. Based on your descriptions, I don't think your daughter would be comfortable with it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Um. . . Tom?
Spoiler warning next time, buddy.
Some of us aren't quite finished with Magic Street. . .
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Um, I have to second Lloyd Alexander, too. I haven't read enough Diane Wynn Jones to speak for all her work, but if Howl's Moving Castle is representative, she's worth reading. I'm sure she's already read The wrinkl in time and so forth?
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I found Dogsbody recently at Barnes and Noble, though it was out of print for a good long while.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I like Diane Duane's Young Wizard series, although I haven't read the last couple yet.
You should! Wizard's Holiday is absolutely marvelous. And I can't wait for Wizards at War.
And if you're saying you have not yet read A Wizard Alone, this is something you need to remedy RIGHT NOW!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Tom said:
quote:*blink* How could you not? [see religion in Philip Pullman's series]
Ignorance. If you don't know religion, which I didn't back then aged fourteen, you don't see it. I went to a Christian school for a couple of years but the societies I've lived in are just so completely removed from religious themes that I could be a complete dunce- academically, I knew it had something to do with religion, but really it went right over my head. Then, it becomes merely magic, merely grand ideas I don't quite understand, merely two kids on an adventure that seems to have more meaning than I've quite getting.
Also: I enjoyed to some extent the Young Wizard's series, although it never gripped me.
Oh! Suddenly thought of a series. The Obernewtyn Chronicles, by an Australian author Isabelle Carmody http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss/ReviewObernewtyn.html. No sex, but maybe a bit old for a twelve year old. Ignore the last negative part of the linked to review. I loved the first two of this series and I wish I could get my hands on a copy.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Uncle Orson, is Ender two years older than your audience? I some how don't think so.
[Note to the inevitable poster]: this was an ironic question, not an insult, I am aware that he said it is not always followed, and, yes, it is generaly followed, but not by OSC in Enders Game, surely.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I don't think anyone mentioned "Children of the Lamp," which my kids and I enjoyed. "Inkheart" and Inkspell" are good - I'm looking forward to the third book.
I loved Joan Aiken books, and there's also Sid Fleischman. He's fun to read - possibly a bit childish for your daughter, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I agree with Diana Wynne Jones and Gail Carson Levine - I've read books by both authors. There are Chrestomanci stories in two volumes - those were the first books I read by her.
I'm going to pay attention to this thread - I've got a 12-year-old and a 10-year-old who could benefit from this advice. Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Let's see: Barker - Abarat books (some disgusting things, nothing sexual though) Beagle - The Last Unicorn (if she's seen the movie this is a good read) Hanley - Seer and the Sword (plus its companion books) Nicholson - Wind Singer trilogy (two thumbs up) Baird - Willowmere trilogy (easy read from Canada)
If she liked Redwall: Adams - Watership Down (rabbits) Jarvis - Dark Portal quartet (rodents) Clement-Davies - Fire Bringer (deer) and The Sight (wolves)
Already mentioned that I also liked: Nix's books (Abhorsen trilogy & Shade's Children have some sex in them) Duane's Young Wizards series Christopher's Tripods series (start with The White Mountains) Haddix's Shadow Children series (easy but fun) Patterson's Maximum Ride books (also easy)
[ June 19, 2006, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: CRash ]
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
quote:Originally posted by OlavMah: Tanith Lee. I find her kind of hard to read as an adult, but it reads like some of the stuff I liked when I was 12.
As a precaution, not all of Tanith Lee is YA-appropriate. I read Dark Dance and Personal Darkness when I was going through a slight vampire phase in high school, and I found them quite disturbing, more because of the...
**spoiler warning**
...incestuous sex in the first book, and the barely-teenaged result of said incestuous sex lusting after her (grand)father in the second book. The sex itself didn't bother me, but the incest was a bit much for me at the time.
**end spoilers**
I haven't read either book since then, but I'd probably not be as disturbed if I read them again now. But unless my memory is exaggerating things, I'm pretty sure that they're intended to be at least somewhat disturbing.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
Crispin the Cross of Lead by Avi
I also really enjoyed The Goose Girl and it's seqeul Enna Burining By Shannon Hale (who also wrote another good one Princess Academy, I think) I read about them in an OSC review and have them on hold for my own pre-teen to read this summer. (Great thread Belle BTW)
I will also second The City of Ember by Jeanne DuPrau, there is a sequel but I can't think of the title for some reason. From what was said, I think that I enjoyed it more than the other person who mentioned it.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
this may be a bit advanced for her, but I started on Anne McCaffrey soemtime in late gradeschool/early middleschool and loved it. of course I also read Mists of Avalon in 6th grade so I'm not the greatest representation of typical reading ages (though I will say a fairly graphic depiction of incestuous ritual sex is somewhat disturbing for a 6th grader, so I wouldnt reccomend repeating that one, assuming she could get through the 900 pages)
but yeah, Anne McCaffrey has a ton to choose from that are from my recollection pretty tame and very well done. Lots of fantasy in the Pern books and a decent chunk of Sci-Fi in the Rowan series (and others that I havent gotten to yet)
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
Oh this is tricky. I'm guessing your daughter is a fairly avid and avanced reader. My parents stopped screening my books at about the age of 12. I think that was about when I read the Clan of the Cave Bears and subsequent books. I recall skipping an awful lot of pages because I just wasn't interested in that.
I'm trying to think of some of the stuff I really really liked. Does your daughter only like fantasy. I recall some great historical fiction by Ann Rinaldi. I also liked Avi. But those might be too easy.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Diana Wynne Jones is a fantastic writer; I've read nearly everything she's written and loved most of it. Fire and Hemlock is my favorite; the Chrestomanci books are all delightful; Archer's Goon and Power of Three are quite good fun.
I second (third? fourth?) Watership Down--it was one of those books I didn't read for ages because my mum mentioned the words "psychic bunny rabbit" and totally put me off, but it was amazing once I did read it.
If she doesn't mind reading books that may be aimed a little younger, Hilary McKay has written four most excellent books about a wacky artsy family that I read last year and loved. They are, in order, Saffy's Angel, Indigo's Star, Permanent Rose, and Caddy Ever After. So funny.
I was never a big fan of Anne of Green Gables, but L.M. Montgomery wrote a bunch of other books that I simply adored. The Emily of New Moon books (Emily of New Moon, Emily Climbs, and Emily's Quest) were favorites of mine when I was younger. Jane of Lantern Hill and The Blue Castle are both funny, touching books as well (and The Blue Castle has one of the funniest family dinner scenes of all time).
I also remember discovering Agatha Christie around that age--it was one of those things you dream about, finding an author you like who's written shelves full of books. I remember Agatha Christie being a bit of a revelation, the way you were genuinely surprised at who the murderer was (I being raised on Nancy Drew and the Boxcar Children).
If she likes plays at all, The Night Thoreau Spent in Jail and Inherit the Wind are lovely.
The Scarlet Pimpernel, if she hasn't read it. Everybody in the whole world should read The Scarlet Pimpernel. And Rafael Sabatini can be fun if she likes the swashbuckling piratey thing.
If you can possibly find it, Travel Far, Pay No Fare, by Anne Lindbergh, is a lark.
Okay, I'm done. (For now.) (I love recommending books to people.)
Jen
P.S. Oh, and Behind the Attic Wall.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
In case no one's mentioned it, the 'Bartimaeus Trilogy' is a fun read.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Eventualy, one must trust your duagther's librarian. Perhaps I am biased, as my librarian throughout elementary and middle school was wondeful.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: but yeah, Anne McCaffrey has a ton to choose from that are from my recollection pretty tame and very well done. Lots of fantasy in the Pern books and a decent chunk of Sci-Fi in the Rowan series (and others that I havent gotten to yet)
The Rowan series is not appropriate for a typical sixth grader. I don't recall exactly how graphic it is, but I recall being shocked at the time I read it, which I'm guessing was 7th or 8th grade.
I think a lot of the time it's hard to remember what was shocking when you were that young. I read David Eddings in 6th grade and was uncomfortable reading most of the Mallorean. Rereading it now, I'm amazed at how far Eddings goes out of his way to avoid being racy.
Edit: I just reread this thread, and discovered that I'd already talked about Eddings in it. I'm going to leave this here, since it makes sense in this context too.
[ June 19, 2006, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Yeah, the Rowan series has some sex, some of it a bit explicit but not on the order of the Jean Auel series explicit. There's also a homosexual character who has sex with a straight character, but I mean my daughter's not so sheltered that she doesn't know there are both straight and gay people and that both types of people have sex (though not usually with each other. )
She's 13 now, by the way. We tried another Tamora Pierce novel and she came to me afterwards and told me she really wished Pierce would leave the sex out of her stories, she really wasn't interested in one character's lesbian relationship.
She's finished the Abhorsen series by Nix and I myself have read Shade's Children and nixed it. (yes pun intended)
What's funny is myself as a writer. When I started this thread the story in my mind was going to completely avoid any mention of sex. Now, almost a year after I started this thread I'm wrestling with how to handle the situation that my characters have now found themselves in. Well, a major factor is I made the protagonist older than originally intended. Funny how stories will take you in directions you didn't originally intend to head.
Once again, I do appreciate all the suggestions. ONe puzzles he, however - I see tons of you enjoyed Diana Wynne Jones. I've read one book by her and did not like it at all. Maybe I just made a bad choice and should give her another chance? I can't even remember the title now, it was completely forgettable.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I never understood why people liked The Hero and the Crown and The Blue Sword, either, but has she read Rose Daughter and Beauty by Robin McKinley? They're phenomenal. Dearskin and Sunshine are definately not age appropriate, though.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
At that age, I read Once and Future King until it fell apart.
Ni!
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
yah, and as I said earlier today
quote: [Life of Pi is} genius, postmodernism without pretension; wisdom without sanctimony: this book should be required for every seventh grade class, for, along with Animal Farm, LotR, Catch-22, Gilgamesh, the Oydessey, The Fixer and The Once and Future King, it forms the basis of a great middle school reading list: what Johnny Tremain and A Wrinkle in Time are for Elmentary, it is for middle school.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I realized I never gave actual recommendations in this thread...
I second Wise Child and the Enchanted Forest Chronicles. Wise Child also has a companion/prequel, Juniper, that I've been dying to read for years and haven't found yet.
I also loved Beauty, and still do. Rose Daughter was good, not my favorite, but good.
Things written in the 19th century and early 20th were written at a time when literature was supposed to be cleaner. Even the really racy stuff from back then wasn't too explicit (although I still don't recommend it for younger readers; sometimes there are drugs, once in a while an affair.)
I loved Sherlock Holmes, Anne of the Anne books, the Emily books also by Lucy Maud Montgomery, and since all of those were aimed at people older than I was at the time, I got years of re-reads out of them (in fact, I still re-read them; Montgomery is an absolutely incredible author.) Alcott tends to be simpler, and I'm less and less enamored of her writing style as I get older, and she's awfully blatant about the preaching she does, but her children's books are wonderful nonetheless, the stories can't be beat, and, well, what girl can grow up without reading Little Women? It shouldn't happen! (My personal favorite is Rose in Bloom.) Classics like The Time Machine and Robinson Crusoe continue to be in print because they're just plain good.
I found that no matter what age the books were aimed at, it was the ones with really wonderful characters that I was drawn to. That's why I abandoned the Sweet Valley Twins and Babysitters' Club books fairly quickly. They were fine for a fast read, but not something that was going to become a favorite.
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