Seeing as how you're the resident legal expert and I'm a lazy bum, I had a legal question for ya. It concerns the state of Florida's contract law.
If two people make a verbal contract between them, is it binding? Also, let's say it is, but the only witnesses to the contract are the employees of one party, and only part of the job has been paid for? Let me know if you need more details.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
On the one hand I think it is sad that you have to have written contracts in our society. On the other hand, I think someone would have to be kind of naive not to realize this.
On yet another hand, money is a form of written contract itself- a highly transferrable one. But once money is involved, I think it is no longer unfortunate that we can't rely on a handshake.
Posted by hugh57 (Member # 5527) on :
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on"
-- Samuel Goldwyn
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I've had a good run in on this before. Because of the crappy contract laws in Idaho (Verbal agreements are binding in court), I will never be able to collect several thousand dollars owed to me by an unscrupulous employer.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Verbal contracts are binding. The question is enforcement.
Posted by hugh57 (Member # 5527) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: The question is enforcement.
Which, I think, was Goldwyn's point. Without a written contract, enforcement is much more difficult, often making enforcement more trouble than it's worth.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Rakeesh, is this for a specific, real life situation?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
LOL...I know where this is going, I think..
Break out the disclaimer, Dag...(not that you shouldn't, really, it is the only reasonable, ethical thing to do. )
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'll give background info on it either way, but it's going to end with "see a licensed Florida attorney."
But the background could still be useful in preparing to meet the attorney.
Here's the general contracts overview, which is not legal advice and cannot be used to make a decision about how to proceed. It does not give any specific information, but is intended to cover the range of possibilities. Florida will have specific rules on most of the general areas covered below.
Verbal contracts may be enforceable. The general exception is covered by what's called the Statute of Frauds, which dates back to England a long time ago. It says that contracts which cannot be completed within one year from contract formation, contracts related to marriage, and contracts related to real property are not enforceable unless memorialized in a writing.
Every state has a statute of frauds, most slightly different and all interpreted differently. Some non-written contracts which fall into the categories above can actually be enforced, and many non-written contracts which don't fall into those categories may not be enforced.
There's going to be an evidentiary problem if one party denies the existence of a contract. The standard is usually not whether each person intended to enter the contract, but rather if a reasonable person would have thought they were entering into a contract. The presence of the word "reasonable" should tell you that this is a highly fact-specific.
In short, there's nothing inherent in a verbal contract that makes it unenforceable. States have implemented specific exceptions to the general rule. States have also implemented exceptions to the exceptions to the general rule.
If the amount in question is worth the trouble, see an attorney. Have all the facts available, including cooberating evidence (evidence of performance, a cancelled check, etc.). The attorney should be able to tell you quickly (and without a charge) if it's worth pursuing and how much it is likely to cost. If the contract does fall into one of Florida's exceptions, you should find out quickly.
If it's too small to justify an attorney, you may want to consider small claims court.
Dagonee
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
>>Verbal contracts are binding. The question is enforcement.
Ahem, NOT in real estate law in Virginia. We had a verbal agreement to buy a house; the seller backed out after we had already sold our home; we contacted a lawyer to see what could be done; she said, "Verbal agreements are not binding in real estate in VA."
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That was one of the exceptions he listed, Scott.....under "real property" I imagine.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
As Dag said:
quote:Verbal contracts may be enforceable. The general exception is covered by what's called the Statute of Frauds, which dates back to England a long time ago. It says that contracts which cannot be completed within one year from contract formation, contracts related to marriage, and contracts related to real property are not enforceable unless memorialized in a writing.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Thanks everyone for your responses, particularly Dagonee. The information isn't for me, but a friend of mine who operates an irrigation company, largely installing residential sprinkler systems.
The meat and potatoes of it is that this friend of mine and another friend of his made a verbal deal. Let's just call my friend T. My friend T and another friend of his, a contractor, made a verbal deal in front of some of T's employees. The deal was basically this: T's company would install the sprinkler systems in some seventy homes being built by the contractor, for a certain price.
Four of the houses had their sprinkler systems installed, and T was paid for that portion of the work. However, the contractor has apparently found someone who can do the job for less money, and now wants to break the rest of their agreement, to the tune of some $35,000.00 worth of work. (Actually about $32,000.00 worth now, after the four homes)
To infringe on your time and knowledge a little further, Hatrack, I'm assuming this would fall under the category of 'real property' and thus very probably be be unenforceable? I basically told T that to my very limited knowledge a verbal contract would probably be binding, if it could be proven to have been made. I wonder if four employees of T's would be considered proof for such a matter. In any case, I told him he will need to speak with an attorney in any case. I'm just a nerd who reads a lot, after all
The funny thing is is that the new people being hired by the contractor are basically only able to do the job for their quoted price if *ahem* certain parts 'fall off the truck' of their parent company. Apparently irrigation systems are much like other construction jobs, in which people do lots of work on the side where they can get it-and sometimes on the sly, as well.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
No offense, but your friend is an idiot for not getting the 70 house agreement in writing. Sorry, but that's the plain truth from someone who used to be in the construction business.
We didn't do any job, no matter how small without a written contract agreement with the homeowner or contractor. And still had cases where we weren't paid, even went to court and fought one, only to lose money in the deal by the time we paid our attorney.
Tell your friend to move onto other jobs and get a standard contract form drawn up, pronto. That's my advice, such as it is.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I'm not sure how much of a case he has since the work wasn't actually done. I know that if he had done the work under a verbal contract and the contractor refused to pay, he could take it to court and win.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:To infringe on your time and knowledge a little further, Hatrack, I'm assuming this would fall under the category of 'real property' and thus very probably be be unenforceable?
Not really. It still might fall under one of the many other exceptions, but the real property part of the SoF is aimed at promises of transfer of title, which includes sale, options, leases, life estates, etc.
If all 70 jobs would take more than a year, you might have a problem. It sounds like it's definitely worth talking to a lawyer who knows the applicable Florida law. He may tell you that your friend has no case under the law, or that he has a case but can't prove it.
Tell him good luck. Sounds like he'll need it.
Dagonee
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I was speaking in my general, non-lawyerly manner, Scott
I've been acquainted with enough binding verbal contracts (third party) to know that in many instances they're binding; its nice to know some exceptions.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I told him that as well, Belle, although less...directly T replied that the contractor and he have been friends for a very long time, personally and professionally.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If T's friend knows about the "falling off the truck" thing, he could share some criminal and civil liability.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
If verbal contracts are the norm between the parties, then your friend may have a good case. Another thing to consider is the industry custom; is it customary to have oral contracts for this type of projects? This all goes to the "reasonableness" standard.
Many states have specific statutes governing the business practices of contractors and construction companies. These statutes may override common law interpretation of contracts.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Sometimes the guys that do it on the side aren't quite as conscientious about the work they do. If they screw something up, the contractor's going to have a hard time getting one of those guys to come fix it me thinks.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Are the "on the side" guys generally covered by their company's liability insurance?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
As an aside, "Dagonee Mayfly" would be a great name for a fantasy character.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I pointed that out to him as well, Dagonee and others. The friend could indeed.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Jeff, could you ask him a question for me?
If you're putting in a feeder line near the property line, where do you put it? On the line, 1 foot from the line, etc.? I ask because we had a fence put in recently. The fence posts were about 4 inches from the property line. Guess where the irrigation line was. It would seem like you would offset the irrigation line just for that reason, but you know what they say about hindsight.
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