Well, apparently in Hanover Borough, you do. I just recently got a notice in the mail that I am responsible for the upkeep and repair of the sidewalk on my property. I've also been informed that the repairs need to be done by 9/16 this year. This is the first I've heard of this. At any rate, I called the number on the letter and spoke with the man in charge of this particular facet of local bureaucracy. He agreed to meet me to discuss the situation.
Well, we met. Lucky enough, he's a nice older retired man who handles notices and enforcement of this type for the borrough as a part time job. He first told me the regulations. Apparently, in my borrough, the property owner is completely and solely responsible for their property up to actual street. This means he/she is responsible for the sidewalk and the curb all along the edge of their property. Not only do we have to clear weeds, snow, etc, but we also have to repair cracks and replace sections as needed. Of course, repair and replacement have to be done according to city code.
The bad news: Well, for the first time since moving, I'm regretting owning a corner lot. I think my lot is something like 35 feet wide (with double-wide sidewalks on that side) and maybe 80-100 feet long (with normal sidewalk). I'd guess that at least 70 percent of my sidewalk needs some repair and maybe 50 percent needs replacement.
The good news: Well, the guy in charge apparently isn't too anal about the 9/16 date. In fact, he basically said that as long as the burrough could see that I was making an effort to get it repaired, even a small piece at a time, they would most likely let me be.
Interestingly, though, he asked me if I knew that the previous owner had already been informed of the need for repair. (I didn't.) Unfortunately, she was only informed by a regular letter, so there is no proof that she ever read it. I might be able to sue for some share of the repair costs, but I don't see how I could win, and the legal headache and cost could just as easily be put into the repair.
Needless to say, I'm a little upset about this, especially since I've already put over $70 thousand into the two properties I own, and that tapped out all my repair funds. If I had known about this when I bought the house, I could have ear-marked some of the cash to make the repairs.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
oh man! that sucks Karl!
*glad I don't have a sidewalk*
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
KarlEd,
That sucks! I got stuck with this in NYC once. It was insane. The letters always sound so threatening, but behind it all is usually someone like your friendly retired guy.
They know it's a hardship. The deadlines in law are there so the city has some leverage with deadbeats and so that there's the possibility of an enforceable lien.
I assume from what you say that the city had not put a lien on the property before you bought it? I lucked out because when the title search showed that, the previous owner had to put money in escrow to fix the sidewalk. We still paid for it, of course, with our purchase of the house, but the prior guy had to leave some behind for the repair.
Questions to ask the city:
1) Can you put in a decorative sidewalk of brick or paving stone? If so, the job is more likely something you could do yourself with a bit of patience (and money, of course.
2) If it has to be concrete and they'll let you do a section at a time, does the work have to be done under a permit, or can you do it yourself? Concrete work isn't THAT difficult, but they probably have a standard for rock fill, underlayment, and maybe even reinforcement.
Anyway, good luck. I'm sorry you got "stuck." I think there's something like this in EVERY house purchase.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I think homeowners being responsible for the sidewalk is pretty standard, although I've never heard about being responsible for the curb before. In my city, the inspectors go through a neighborhood at a time, and mark all the sections that need to be replaced, and then send you a letter stating that unless you make other arrangements before X/X the city contracted crew would do the work, at a charge of $XX to you. You can send in a check or have it show up as an assesment broken over the next 6 monhts or something. When I got the letter, I checked into my options, and it was cheapest just to have the city crew take care of it. I had a lot less to replace than you do, however, and only had to send in a check for a couple hundred bucks.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Well technically, our community fee pays for sidewalk maintenance, but we seem to be in the forgotten part of the maintenance program, because navigating our 20-year-old paving-stone walkway is like braving the high seas. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
No sidewalks here, thankfully.
But yesterday there was a notice from my letter carrier that "my mailbox needed attention"
The reason? My garbage cans were close to it. The note said "Don't put garbage cans near mailbox." Now note the word "near." They were not in front of the mailbox, they were not blocking anyone's access to my mailbox.
There is nowhere for me to put my garbage cans that isn't "near" my mailbox. I can only put them at the end of my driveway, and they have to be right there close to the street so the garbage collection company can get them with their little automatic arm thingie on their truck. Believe me, if they aren't close enough to the street, they just won't pick it up and you'll have extra garbage for a week. I know - I've been there.
They have to be at the end of my driveway, because it's the only section level enough so they don't roll back down toward the house.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Maybe you could relocate the mailbox to the roof.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Obviously, where I live, we don't have sidewalks.
However, when I worked for many years as a journalist for various small towns around, I can tell you it is pretty standard that sidewalk maintanance is the responsibilitiy of the homeowner. (yes, it started a lot of verbal wars during small town council meetings). I don't think the curbs were, unless maybe you have one of those sidewalks that is against the curb, instead of a strip on lawn between your sidewalk and curb....
FG
[ July 22, 2005, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I was going to chime in about the liens. You're actually getting a little screwed by the laid back attitude. If they enforced the date, even with just recording a lein and no fines, your title insurance company would cover this (assuming they hadn't caught it). They could still be nice about the deadline, just not let people duck out of their responsibility.
It might be worth pursuing from the prior owner. At least get him to the point where she has to make the decision to actually lie about it. If you got your own settlement attorney (not one who represented the deal instead of one side or another), call him. If not, call a real estate lawyer.
He'll likely tell you you're out of luck without proof she received the notice. But maybe not.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I've been thinking about all that, Dagonee. I'm waffling, though, since she's closer to 90 than 80 and in very poor health. Granted it's her daughter I'd probably be dealing with, but I hate feeling like an ogre.
I did realize about the "laid back" stuff. If I had held out about 6 more months on the purchase, they'd most likely have sent her a registered letter since she ignored or didn't receive the first one.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Well, charitable considerations are always important. If you can do the work yourself a piece at a time and don't mind doing it, I'm all in favor of not going after 80 year old women.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: I think homeowners being responsible for the sidewalk is pretty standard
Really? I'm fairly certain that in L.A. the city owns (and is responsible for) the sidewalks and curbs. The property owner does not own (but must maintain) the grassy area between the sidewalk and the curb.
I think.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
That's how it's been wherever I've lived.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Sidewalks get maintained?
Huh. Amazing. Not around here, they don't.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Rivka, same with every town I've lived in here. Property line is the house-side of the sidewalk, and the various concrete areas and the "parkway" (area of grass between the sidewalk and the curb) are the property of and maintained by the Streets & Sanitation department.
I don't know if location of things like water mains and sewer access has anything to do with that, though. I do know that the water lines run under that parkway in my mom's town (where I grew up) and I think it's the same where I live now. Reason I mention that is that the water mains being under the parkway may cause that to be considered a ... um.... oh shoot I just blanked on the word... easement, I think is what I want, and therefore not part of the deeded property.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
In my town, the homeowner is responsible for sidewalk maintenance. Savvy buyers will put a bid on a house, and once it is accepted, have their home inpection company check the sidewalks and recommend repair by the current owner, if needed. Sometimes, when you see the "Century 21" sign on the yard, you also see the cement truck fixing the walks.
Either that, or the seller will knock some off the price to cover the cost of repair.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Sidewalks get maintained?
Huh. Amazing. Not around here, they don't.
Heh. Ours just got replaced. No more sudden stops with the stroller due to roots heaving the sidewalks.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Our sidewalks seemed to be maintained by the city - that would be the only explanation for why the city broke up and replaced our sidewalks several years ago. Of course, they didn't notify us in advance, and broke a sprinkler head in the process (not that we ever use the sprinkler system), but I'm not complaining.
No curbs in many of the older southeast Florida neighborhoods - just grassy swales that people park on. People from elsewhere don't seem to be able to figure that out though, and park in the middle of the street instead of on the grassy swale, effectively blocking the street.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, I can understand why that's hard to figure out, seeing as in many places it's illegal to park on someone's grass.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
I live in the near western 'burbs of Chicago. The city pours them and we pay for half! If the sidewalk is cracked, then the city "informs" you that they need to be fixed and lets you know when you can arrange to have the cement guys come and work.
The city even checks the alley and tells you if there are problems back there. Problems can range from trashcan too full, too many weeds along the edge of the fence and too much peeling paint on the garage! It's like living in one of those home owner associations!!!
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
We don't have sidewalks, but if we did, I'm sure we'd be responsible for maintaining them. We have to pay a percentage to maintain a street light that's across the street and a couple of houses down. I'm not crazy about that because it hardly shines any light and it certainly doesn't shine any our way.
I'd be very upset if I found out that I was responsible for the sidewalk repairs after my home was purchased.
Belle, can't you put your garbage on the other side of the driveway, the side that your mailbox is not on?
You have to love our garbage guys. We put our garbage out on the side of the driveway so that we can get out in the morning. Who ever gets home first has to get out and move the garbage can, the garbage can that is sitting right in the center of our driveway.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, I can understand why that's hard to figure out, seeing as in many places it's illegal to park on someone's grass.
Even if everybody but you is parking on the grassy swale?
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
That's just asking for a ticket given to the one vehicle with out of state plates. Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
quote:You have to love our garbage guys. We put our garbage out on the side of the driveway so that we can get out in the morning. Who ever gets home first has to get out and move the garbage can, the garbage can that is sitting right in the center of our driveway.
Sounds like our garbage guys. I always put the trashcan about 4 feet to the side of the driveway so I can easily get in and out of the garage. When I get home from work, I can tell they've come and picked it up (sometimes they run a day late) when the trashcan is now magically in front of the right side of the driveway.
Around here the sidewalks and curbs are maintained by the city. I'd be pretty peeved to buy a place and find out after the fact that I'm responsible for the upkeep of the sidewalk (especially when it's already supposed to have been fixed by the previous owners).
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
The normal pattern is for the city to do the work on their own schedule, then bill the property owners for an EQUALIZED assessment, so that the guy with the keyhole lot pays the same as the guy with the corner lot - everyone on the street has the advantage of sidewalks, so everybody pays for them.
As for "luckily" not having sidewalks - I loathe living without sidewalks. Everybody has to walk in the street. Children have to learn to skate or ride bikes right among the cars.
Sorry that your borough has such a ludicrous policy. Why can't they just do the work and bill you, amortizing it over five or ten years?
Don't you have a political party that could make hay out of this situation? Agitate, my friend! Threaten the office of the officeholders by backing another candidate if they don't change the system! Get publicity!
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheTick: That's just asking for a ticket given to the one vehicle with out of state plates.
Yeah, but no one gets a ticket for it here cause it's legal. I have even seen people pull their cars right up on their own front lawns to get in the shade of a tree and keep the car from overheating so much during the day. After seeing a few neighbors do it, I started doing it too, for a period of several years during I had to pick the kids up from school in the heat of the afternoon. After I dropped them off in the morning, I'd pull the car right up under a tree and have a cooler car for afternoon pickup.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
But an out of towner wouldn't know that right off, silly. I don't even like my neigbor's craptacular rusty truck parked in front of our house, if it was on our grass? Ugh.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Hmm, stuck in a hotel room again, are we Mr. Card?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Good guess, Tick. However, I doubt it.
quote: Greensboro, NC Friday, July 22 - 7:00 p.m. Barnes & Noble Friendly Shopping Center 3102 Northline Ave. Greensboro, NC
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Ah, so just killing time in general.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Don't you have a political party that could make hay out of this situation? Agitate, my friend! Threaten the office of the officeholders by backing another candidate if they don't change the system! Get publicity!
Rabble Rouser!
(uh oh... I may be getting roused. I think I've joined the rabble.)
I'm off to storm Borough Hall! Who's with me! . . . . . . . . . . . . anyone? Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Down here in BFE, PA I too have no sidewalks. But I do maintain my own gravel.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Hm, this reminds me of something sort of related to it.
We haven't been told to do anything with our sidewalks, our nextdoor neighbor, however...
They live on the corner of the block at a fairly busy interesection, so they got the nice fence with the name of our neighborhood on it. Usually there's also a small flower bed there too. It started to get pretty weedy and they eventually got a call from the city. This is how it kind of worked.
"Sir, you realize that you own that little garden and you must take care of it so that it doesn't reflect poorly?" "Um, so you want me to take the weeds out?" "Yes, sir." "Well, if I do that, can I put concrete over it so there's no more weeds?" "You can't do that, the city owns it." "Well, if the city owns it, can't you send some guys out to go take care of the weeds?" "No sir, you own it and you must take care of it." "Well then I'll just put concrete over it."
Basically, the conversation went like that for a ... long time. Finally the city took care of it, but yeesh.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
They literally contradicted themselves like that? That's funny.
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, I can understand why that's hard to figure out, seeing as in many places it's illegal to park on someone's grass. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if everybody but you is parking on the grassy swale?
I'd just figure they lived there and were going to come after me with their shotguns if I parked there unless signs were posted or I was informed in advance. Which luckily I now have been, thank you. (Although I don't know that I'll ever go there now, since I'm allergic to grass and try to avoid walking over it.)
quote:Don't you have a political party that could make hay out of this situation? Agitate, my friend! Threaten the office of the officeholders by backing another candidate if they don't change the system! Get publicity!
My suggestion would be to call the consumer advocacy department of your local news station if you're in a really ridiculous situation with the sidewalks.
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I'd be very upset if I found out that I was responsible for the sidewalk repairs after my home was purchased.![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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(Although I don't know that I'll ever go there now, since I'm allergic to grass and try to avoid walking over it.)