Yesterday was a religious fast day, and WOW, did I have a wonking bad headache. It knocked my socks off!
I'm fairly certain that caffeine withdrawal contributes to the fast-day headache, but I am not willing to cut out my caffeine consumption.
Does anyone know if there is a transdermal (patch, maybe) caffiene delivery system available? Would a compounding pharmacist be able to cook me up one over the counter?
I need to hurry -- there is another fast day just around the corner, and I want to be able to keep my socks on.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Does fasting preclude taking pills?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Wouldn't taking transdermal and/or intravenous drugs violate the spirit if not the letter of the fast?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I couldn't say about patches, but as I understand it (and I may be totally wrong), some pain relievers (Excedrin maybe?) include caffeine.
Edit: I checked; Excedrin does have caffeine. There's also caffeine pills, like vivarin.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Fasting precludes taking pills, unless they are medically necessary. Treating a headache is not considered to be medically necessary, or I would have just taken some Excedrin and been done with.
I think that it is OK to go the transdermal route. I thought I would find out if such a thing were even possible before I went to my Rabbi to ask for a ruling.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
How about suppositories? You'd have to *really* want to get rid of that headache, but you could probably whip one up yourself.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's not that I think it's TECHNICALLY a violation. But it seems to me that it subverts the intent of the fast to find another way to get caffeine into your system; my gut feeling, speaking as someone who used to observe Ramadan, is that God would prefer that you reduce your dependence on caffeine.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Does fasting preclude taking pills?
Assuming they are not medically required, no pills.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Wouldn't taking transdermal and/or intravenous drugs violate the spirit if not the letter of the fast?
Why? They are neither food nor drink nor unguents. As for the spirit, the idea is to be mildly uncomfortable, not in serious pain.
Tante, you know you're allowed to break the Yud Zayin Tamuz fast for a serious headache, neh? Won't work for Tisha b'Av, though.
I try to cut back on caffeine just for the few days before a fast. It tends to mean I'm less dehydrated as well. My dad, who drinks a couple cups of coffee in the morning, drinks a large iced coffee right before the fast (as part of his seudah hamafsekes) and breaks his fast with a meal including coffee.
I am not aware of caffeine in transdermal or injectable form, although I like the notion.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's not that I think it's TECHNICALLY a violation. But it seems to me that it subverts the intent of the fast to find another way to get caffeine into your system; my gut feeling, speaking as someone who used to observe Ramadan, is that God would prefer that you reduce your dependence on caffeine.
Probably so. In that physical dependence like that is undoubtedly not the best thing.
But that does not translate to being a violation -- of any type -- of fasting.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Et voila. (You are allowed to shower on fast days, yes?)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Tisha B'Av is what I'm worried about.
I could accept the idea of a suppository, but how do I cook one up?
G'd wants me to cut back on caffeine? Then why did He make coffee to tasty, so cheap, so accessible, so kosher? No offense intended, but I'll stick to religious rulings from my Rav.
I saw online that there is a caffeine-laced soap for morning showers. Alas, fasting includes not showering.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I think that may be the absolutely bizarrest geek accessory I have ever seen.
Unfortunately, on the two major fast days, showering would be a problem. Would've worked yesterday, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
DARN! It's an April Fools' joke. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You can drink water during fast days, I assume? What about water that is caffeinated?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: You can drink water during fast days, I assume? What about water that is caffeinated?
No water.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Ai! How long does the fast last?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: But that does not translate to being a violation -- of any type -- of fasting.
Muslims and Jews have very different opinions of what fasting is for, apparently. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
When I used to observe Day of Atonement fasts (and now, when I just do spiritual fasting on my own) I always had trouble with caffeine headaches.
I finally realized it was worth the effort to cut back on my caffeine consumption slowly for about two weeks ahead of the planned fast. To decrease my dependancy and get to where I could make it through the 24 hour fast without too much suffering.
FG
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Ai! How long does the fast last?
The two major fasts, about 25 hours; the fours minor fasts, 14-16 hours.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: But that does not translate to being a violation -- of any type -- of fasting.
Muslims and Jews have very different opinions of what fasting is for, apparently.
Likely so. Especially since the different Jewish fasts have different purposes.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Tom, I don't know that there is such a big difference in what the fasting is for. Differences lie in the details.
Noemon, Fasts are either half-fasts or full-fasts. A half fast is from before sunrise (which is pretty darn early in the summer) until about an hour past sunset(which is late in the summer). A full fast begins before sunset and continues until about an hour past sunset. And water is not allowed.
There are exceptions for pregnant and nursing women, children, and the ill. Diabetics, for instance, do not fast.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: G'd wants me to cut back on caffeine? Then why did He make coffee to tasty, so cheap, so accessible, so kosher?
This is rather funny from a Mormon point of view. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tante, I've been looking around online, both for a source of ready made caffeine suppositories, and instructions for making them, and I notice that most of the instructions and products I've come across use cocoa butter as a base. Would that be a problem, since technically it's a foodstuff?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If it were a problem, it would be one of applying an ointment (forbidden on the major fasts), not one of eating.
Whether it's a problem I will leave up to Tante's rav. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
JB, I guess it would be. I meant it purely tongue-in-cheek. Alot of sins are tempting. If they weren't things that we were tempted to do anyway, there wouldn't be any point in G'd forbidding us to do them.
For instance, I can't recall anywhere where it is written, "Thou shalt not gnaw off your own leg and beat yourself senseless with it" because although clearly it would be a wrong thing to do, no one is tempted to do such a thing.
There are prohibitions aplenty against eating tasty foods, sleeping with tasty wenches, indulging in tasty gossip, and doing all sorts of other nasty tasty things.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*twinkle* Efshi u'mah e'aseh? Ki avi she'bashmayim gazar alai.
quote: . . . famous Rashi in Chumash (also a Gemara) about not eating treif ("efshi le'echol basar chazir ... elah efshi aval avinu shebashamayim gazar alai"). A person should not refrain from eating treif because he "doesn't like it" -- rather, he should say, "I'd love to eat it, and I'm sure it's delicious, but Hashem said I can't, so I won't".
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Noemon, Do you have links to share?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Do you have to be awake for the duration of the fast?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
kojabu, You do not need to remain awake for the whole fast. For those fasts that extend beyond 24 hours, remaining awake would be difficult indeed.
rivka, But those also contain ergotamine (a migraine drug). Hmmm... that might not be a bad thing, though.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
While "techical" loopholes to fasting might seem contrary to the spirit of a fast, the technicality goes both way. I've seen Jewish people go to great lengths to make sure they are not committinh "technical" violations of the Law they live by (the drinking water in NYC is one example). One of the immense spiritual benefits to living by such a far-reaching set of rules is that it forces one to consider God's will with respect to almost every thing you do.
That benefit occurs whichever way the decision ultimately goes, as long as one is intellectually honest about it. Since Tante is leaving the decision up to her Rabbi, honesty isn't really a problem here.
If the answer to every close question is "better safe than sorry," then much of the spiritual benefit of contemplating the Law is lost. To be intellectually honest means being willing to accept a decision in either direction.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: If the answer to every close question is "better safe than sorry," then much of the spiritual benefit of contemplating the Law is lost.
Ah. To Muslims, fasting is not about contemplating the law of God. But if it were, I would agree that legalisms would in fact be very important.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Migraine drugs unfortunately aren't likely to do much to a generic, non-migraine headache.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Tom, what is fasting about to Muslims?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I don't necessarily think that the fasting per se is about (or mainly about) contemplating the law of God, but rather the general nature of the Law itself has, as one of its many purposes, such contemplation. And fasting is a part of the Law, so general attributes of the Law apply to it as well.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:G'd wants me to cut back on caffeine? Then why did He make coffee to tasty, so cheap, so accessible, so kosher?
I don't drink coffee, but doesn't this argument apply to pretty much anything?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
twink, perhaps we need to discuss the laws of kashrus if you think that "pretty much anything" is kosher. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: [I don't drink coffee, but doesn't this argument apply to pretty much anything?
Yup. That's why I said this above:
quote:I guess it would be. I meant it purely tongue-in-cheek. Alot of sins are tempting. If they weren't things that we were tempted to do anyway, there wouldn't be any point in G'd forbidding us to do them.
For instance, I can't recall anywhere where it is written, "Thou shalt not gnaw off your own leg and beat yourself senseless with it" because although clearly it would be a wrong thing to do, no one is tempted to do such a thing.
There are prohibitions aplenty against eating tasty foods, sleeping with tasty wenches, indulging in tasty gossip, and doing all sorts of other nasty tasty things.
And Ambyr, I'm not so sure that it's NOT a migraine. I am subject to migraines, and I think that caffeine withdrawal can trigger them.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
So drop the kosher. (Er... I don't know how you usually interpret the " " but don't take it that way in this case!)
The argument that god wouldn't want you to cut back on something pleasurable is... well, isn't eating pleasurable? Why would god want you to cut back on eating, even for a day?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Much of the Jewish laws and tradition are less about pursuing pleasure or abstaining from pleasure, as about modifying pleasurable activities so as to make them holy. This include eating, drinking and sex.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I don't think that anyone is claiming that God "wouldn't want you to cut back on something pleasurable"; merely that one should not do so without good cause.
Being commanded to do so strikes me as qualifying as good cause.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Much of the Jewish laws and tradition are less about pursuing pleasure or abstaining from pleasure, as about modifying pleasurable activities so as to make them holy. This include eating, drinking and sex.
But you have to eat to survive...
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I just need to mention that this thread has greatly added to my enjoyment of my iced latte this morning. Thank you!
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:But you have to eat to survive...
Exactly. And an there are some who do only that -- eat only to sustain life, not for any pleasurable ends. And some who eat largely for the pleasure that it entails.
The Jewish way is to eat with delight and with gratitude to G'd. We eat only those foods that have his official approval. We are careful to avoid any foods that are of uncertain approval. We thank G'd for the food before we eat it and after we eat it. He comply with the restrictive rules of harvest in the sabbatical year. We reserve the choicest foods for the Sabbath, and we may skimp during the rest of the week to ensure that we have a feast that is suitable to the day. And we refrain from eating when we are commanded to fast.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me, I'm not too knowledgeable on Judaism. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
INEEDCOFFEE!!!
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:INEEDCOFFEE!!!
But not THAT badly. Eight cups of it? In the wrong end? No thank you!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I feel like that would be the perfect thing for my supervisor; on a daily basis she could definately go through 8 or more cups of a coffee. It's kinda scary.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tante, I didn't find any links that were terribly helpful. I found a number of links to that caffeine cocktail suppository that rivka linked to, and some sites that gave general instructions for suppository creation, but nothing terribly specific.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
OkieDokie. Thanks for trying. I started my day today with 2 cups of coffee, and I feel marvelous. I'm not a super-heavy consumer; usually between 1-3 cups per day, occaisionally a little more.
But I miss it when it's not there.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
[tangent alert] I had to laugh when I read: "Caffeine, theophylline and theobromine, combine to stimulate the relaxation of smooth muscles". Wow, stimulate the relaxation - isn't that an oxymoron? [/tangent]
Posted by starlooker (Member # 7495) on :
So, I was driving to work one morning, and I was running late, and I accidentally drove by the drive-through kiosk that sells my latte. I turned around, drove back, and got it.
As I then proceeded to work, even more late, the thought occurred to me:
"Have you ever missed work due to drinking?"
Um, yes. Yes, I am. I'm a caffeinaholic. I'm not bad, though. I just need a couple of shots in the morning to get me going...
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(You are allowed to shower on fast days, yes?)
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(Er... I don't know how you usually interpret the "