My brother and I were talking about this recently, they've even got a patent on trying to teach someone music.
What we believe is two things, the reason Microsoft are taking these patents is so that if they are sued by a company, they will have enough patents to say that the company suing has already infringed on so many of their patents.
The second is that Microsoft already is moving for a reform in the patent system, perhaps their reasons for this is to try to show just how much it needs reformed.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Maybe they want to patent it so they can go on a piracy quest against illegal use of smileys.
Just for that, I'm think we should patent every three letter internet acronym, the phrases "log on" and "log off", the word "w00t!" and the letter e.
--j_k
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
And the u nicode-character for a "dotless i"; aka: "ı".
I thınk I wıll start usıng ıt; I never got why the "ı"s have a dot on top of them - ısn't ıt stupıd?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
No! Put the dots back!!
If this were the Bible, you'd be in Serious Trouble.
-Katarain
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
That's just weird man
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
The Bıble? Dots on the "ı"s ın the Englısh Bıble are rather mıld compared to the "ımportance" a Hebrew Sefer-Torah (Torah book - scroll) to have the nıce lıttle "flags" on top of certaın letters. Look at any Torah scroll and see the lıttle letter-elaboratıons.
It's harder to read ıt so mınd you. And ıt's annoyıng because you've got to read ın publıc these thıngs.
Who needs the dots on the "ı"s anyway?
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
You're breaking my mind! Put back the dots, spelling devil!!
Posted by Der Grammatikfuehrer (Member # 5015) on :
The dots exist to make the letter i more readable by helping it stand out from neighboring letters. But since you can't grasp this basic fact and since you have committed so many other linguistic crimes, I hereby sentence you to a reeducation camp. If you resist, I will be forced to beat you senseless with a tray of movable type.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Hah Hah I like your username.
Posted by Der Grammatikfuehrer (Member # 5015) on :
Danke schön.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Wow, so I can call myself "Der Grammatikkönıg" and defy your rules. The only reason "ı" ıs more readable wıth dots ıs because you're used to ıt.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Here, I am the Official Grammar Communist of these boards. And no, I'm not partitioning Poland with you, we all know where that leads. I'll just invade straight away.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
It's not that hard to read it without it because we know what words are being written. It's like that thing where you can jumble the letters inside a word, keeping the first and last letters the same, you can still comprehend it.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Try reading cursive script without dotted i's.
For a great example, take a look at Samuel Beckett's handwriting if you can find a sample.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: Wow, so I can call myself "Der Grammatikkönıg" and defy your rules. The only reason "ı" ıs more readable wıth dots ıs because you're used to ıt.
So? If everyone's used to it this way, and there's nothing wrong with it, why complain about it and petition for change?
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: It's like that thing where you can jumble the letters inside a word, keeping the first and last letters the same, you can still comprehend it.
This is pretty easy to disprove.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: So? If everyone's used to it this way, and there's nothing wrong with it, why complain about it and petition for change?
'Cause I've got to do something in my life!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: It's like that thing where you can jumble the letters inside a word, keeping the first and last letters the same, you can still comprehend it.
This is pretty easy to disprove.
I've seen it done before.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
He dotted the "ı"s.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Reading handwriting is a lot different than reading text online anyway.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Sorry, only examples I've read are from his personal notebooks (Washington University in Saint Louis has several in their collections), where he was, ah, liberal with his handwriting.
That is, most of it just looks like up and down squiggles.
I guess he wrote neater when he thought others might read it.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: 'Cause I've got to do something in my life!
Do something worthwhile instead.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I write sloppy notes to myself, but not a paper I'd hand in.
And what worthwhile things can I do? I invited someone to Hatrack - six posts only; I write poetry - Tom complains about Yodaness; I make language reforms - and the Grammar Communists and Fürers attack me for bad orthographic skill; I practise language - and I'm banished from co-ruling the Galaxy.
Easy for thee to talk.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
quote: The second is that Microsoft already is moving for a reform in the patent system, perhaps their reasons for this is to try to show just how much it needs reformed.
Considering Microsoft's past behaviour and their penchant for using patent law as a weapon I find it hard to envision them championing reform unless it is structured as such to give large semi-monopolies even more latitude.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Mıcroſoft's monopulative. Everybody knows that; now, we've got to stop them from patenting the 30 letters: a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, ı, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, ſ, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, z, þ, ð.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I think Mack should patent the finger.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
You mean
,,|,,
?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: And what worthwhile things can I do?
If you want to know more about language, go read a few linguistics textbooks. Research Proto-Indo-European verb forms or the Great Vowel Shift. Learn Old English or something.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: It's like that thing where you can jumble the letters inside a word, keeping the first and last letters the same, you can still comprehend it.
This is pretty easy to disprove.
I've seen it done before.
It is a HOAX. And I am telling you, the next person to reference it . . . well, I don't want to make any threats, but I refuse to be responsible for what I may do.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Pat actually invented the "finger" as I know it on message boards.
He says I owe him a lot of quarters.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by kojabu:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: It's like that thing where you can jumble the letters inside a word, keeping the first and last letters the same, you can still comprehend it.
This is pretty easy to disprove.
I've seen it done before.
It is a HOAX. And I am telling you, the next person to reference it . . . well, I don't want to make any threats, but I refuse to be responsible for what I may do.
Um I'm sorry, but I've read things that people have written like that, that's where I'm basing it off of. Maybe it's just my brain.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
The trick to that is that you can't scramble the letters too much—especially letters with ascenders and descenders. That e-mail was posted three or four times here on Hatrack, and people quickly came up with scrambled words that were impossible to read because they were too jumbled.
But the original e-mails themselves were a hoax, even if it "worked." There was no such study at any university.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I wasn't aware of any of that, sorry.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Sorry, I got overexposed to that email (I believe in one memorable week there were four Hatrack threads, three threads at various other fora I frequent, and a handful of copies in my email) and tend to react badly to any mention of it.
Peace?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Oh definately. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
®
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
rivka, this is the second time this week I've seen you scream "HOAX" in relation to that subject. On what are you basing this? Last time you referenced Snopes.com, but they only list it as Undetermined, and that isn't talking about the phenomenon itself, but whether it was "discovered" by a university study. (They name the university, but I'm too lazy right now to look it up.)
So, what gives? What makes it a "hoax". It is clear that the phenomenon exists to some degree, at least for the text in the email that was being sent around. (I can't vouch whether it works across the board or not.)
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Here's a good place to start. I think it's fairly obvious that it's a hoax. There has not been any such study at any university, so the first claim—that this is the product of research—is false. Secondly, it's not true that the letters can be in any order. That link shows what happens when you really start to scramble the words. Furthermore, studies have shown that we read by recognizing the shape of words—it's not simply a matter of the first and last letter. That's why it can be so hard for someone people to sound out long words that they're unfamiliar with; even if it's an easy word to say, they tend not to read letter-by-letter.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
KarlEd, can you link me to the Snopes article? I couldn't find it when I checked the site.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
KarlEd, did you follow the links at the end of the Snopes article?
Jonathon makes several good points:
The study the email cites never happened -- this is the biggie, IMO.
The actual claim is not true. It is harder to read scrambled words. How much harder depends on the exact scrambling.
Additionally, there are several words in that infamous email that are decodable primarily because they have letters duplicated. ("rscheearch")
It is difficult enough to convince people to (at least attempt) to spell correctly without giving them (invalid) excuses not to . . .
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
boy -- I had to scroll up and read what you were calling a hoax -- because just catching the tail end of this thread, I at first thought you were talking about what I originally posted -- and I thought "then every major news organization is wrong".
But I see the thread drifted into a different direction. *whew*
FG
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Jon Boy, I have a question:
If a dash placed between two words - such as this pair - is supposed to be an EM Dash, how come Microsoft Word gives you an EN Dash when you do the letter-space-hyphen-letter-space sequence? You'd expect them to know!
(Mind you, Publisher does an EM Dash, without any spaces. Should you or shouldn't you put spaces before a dash?)
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
rivka, OK, I understand now.
kojabu, you can find the snopes article here. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Thanks, Karl. I know that I've been particularly snappish the last few days, and I apologize.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: Jon Boy, I have a question:
If a dash placed between two words - such as this pair - is supposed to be an EM Dash, how come Microsoft Word gives you an EN Dash when you do the letter-space-hyphen-letter-space sequence? You'd expect them to know!
(Mind you, Publisher does an EM Dash, without any spaces. Should you or shouldn't you put spaces before a dash?)
Because Microsoft Word is a piece of crap and its autocorrect features are retarded.
Actually, it's probably because most people don't put spaces around dashes. However, I believe it is common in Britain to use an en dash surrounded by spaces rather than an em dash without spaces. I'm guessing that Word thinks this is what you're doing.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
No apology necessary. I didn't take it as particularly snappish. I just wasn't sure what your reasoning was. I probably missed it when the threads about the original email were going around. Then, encountering your dismissals back-to-back like that piqued my curiosity.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Jon, I wince when I read your decapitated "i's". It seems as though there ought to be a bunch of little "i" heads rolling around at the bottom of the page.
Like this... .. .... .
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
My eyes! My I's!
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Ay yi yi!
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Aye...
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
"OUt, out, damned spot!" - King Lear (when Kent loses his eyes).
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