This is topic Harry Potter & Half Blood Prince *SPOILERS* in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
Sorry for making ANOTHER thread but the other one I found was 14 pages long.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DUMBLEDORE DIED!!!!!!!!

My brother curse his soul for all eternaty spoiled the ending for my so i didn't believe him until I finished my copy.

But on another level I underdstand this decision Harry has to stop being dependant on Dumbledore's protection and has to stand up to Tom Riddle himself. As for Snape, I still stunned, we go through the like 5 books all hearing how Dumbledore has somekind of rock solid reason to trus Snape and Snape just kills him. I don't understand could've Dumbledore made a huge mistake?

Other then that, whose this R.A.B? An old friend of Dumbledore we don't know about dispite the fact that Dumbledore said Tom had no friends? Could be a girlfriend we don't know about?

And for Snape being the Prince I should've known, being the bloody potions teacher! But I just assumed it was Riddle, and geuss what I was wrong.

Once again JK Rowling shocks me again with plot twists which to my understanding I should just give up trying to predict the ending, hats off to her.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Regulus A. Black is the popular theory bandied about.


You really should skim through the other thread, there's a lot of stuff in there.
 

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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
Interesting, though I'm thinking not, was Riddle in Hogwarts at the same time as Black? They had to not only have known each other but at the very least RAB would've cared for Riddle in some way to hope Riddle will one day regain his humanity. And ya when I have more time I'll check it out.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Regulus was Black's younger brother, so, I'd say that's extremely unlikely that they were at Hogwarts together, unless Voldemort was at Hogwarts AFTER James, Lily and the others were there.

And if you remember from previous books, Regulus was involved with Voldemort and the other Death Eaters. Reread Order of the Phoenix for more information.
 

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Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
 
Riddle was in school 50 years prior to Harry's sencond year as was Hagrid. Sirius was there with Harry's dad and Regulas was YOUNGER than him so there is no way he was at school with Riddle. You really should read through the other thread.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Yeah, we've hit on most of the common theories and some people have thought of some new ones that are quite intriguing and plausible. Go read it, it's fun! (I had to do this too, I didn't finish the book until the thread was up to page 9 or 10.)
 

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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
alright I will. But when as I said I have more time.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Hmm. If only we had a thread all about Harry Potter that was like 13 pgs long!
 

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Posted by Ele (Member # 708) on :
 
Does anyone think that Harry ought to destroy that thing anyway and that the note was left as the simplest ruse to protect the amulet? (Dumbledore said the magic was crude.)

Can anyone detect magic around here now that Dumbledore is gone?

I knew that Albus had to go, although I didn't want it to happen. As long as there was someone protecting Harry, the final confrontation would not be his. It's the quest formula. He has to prove what he has learned and grow up.

What killed *me* was that Snape did it. I honestly held out hope for him right up to the moment he spoke the words. And then I finished the chapter in shock.

I did entertain about half way through that Snape was the HBP: his closet in the potions room.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Ele, a lot of us felt the same way. We all have our own hopes and dreams about Snape. I still think he's on the good side. (Go read that thread, it's got so many good theories!)
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Wait, y'all think Dumbledore is actually dead?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Dumbledore is dead. Snape is not evil.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Excellent summation, Tom.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Very succinct.

Though, I think a clone, Dumbledorre will arrive in the second movie, but things will not be as they seem ::spooky laugh::
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
It would not be impossible for Rowling to figure out a way to bring Dumbledore back in some form, especially given that he is repeatedly associated with a pheonix.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Yeah, and it's not like she didn't detail exactly how to do it in this book, either.
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Wait, are we being serious now?

I think Dumbledore is dead, for the simple reason that Jo has maintained since book IV that when you're dead, you don't magically come to life. Ever.

That, and the fact that while Dumbly's death might have been the worst thing to happen to Harry and the Order, it's not the worst thing to happen to Dumbly himself. He's too busy having his next great adventure to bother turning into a phoenix.
 

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Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
 
Rowling once said that the Order communicated through their Patronuses...DD Patronus is a Pheonix, and at the Funeral harry thought he saw a Pheonix fly out of the flame...

Now that could just be his spirit or something of that sort...or, and I know its far fetched, it could be DD communicating with his patronus!

I Believe that DD is dead...but their is that unexplained scene at the funeral with the flames and the pheonix.

Any thoughts???
 

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Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
 
Did he see a phoenix? I thought he just saw a flash of flame as DD was entombed.
 

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Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
 
On pg 645..."Harry thought for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a pheonix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished".

I dont know could just be a sentimental touch...but its always fun to speculate!!
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Voldemort wasn't dead. Then there is the whole question of whether or not Snape was really Snape. I mean, there is polyjuice potion. Why couldn't Dumbledore and Snape have changed places?

I'm just saying.

And the thing I hated about this book was how completely out of character Dumbledore acted throughout the entire book. I really felt this book was a season cliff-hanger. It pissed me off.
 

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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
Dumbledore acted perfectly in character he knew he may not live soon so decided to do the best he could to help harry the best he could. What as I said disturbed me was that Dumbledore seemed absolutely blind to Snape, I geuss he never heard about the unbreakable vow? Is that why SNape betrayed Dumbledore? I gotta check that other thread now...
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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And the thing I hated about this book was how completely out of character Dumbledore acted throughout the entire book.

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In his defense, he's a crippled old man concealing at least three huge secrets from the same person he's trying to train. (Don't ask me why he doesn't unburden himself of some of these secrets; I think he just likes being smarter than everyone else. *laugh*)
 

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Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
 
I agree with Tom .

Dumbledore is actually dead, and the extent of his return will be a note and/or the portrait.

Oh, and the pensieve.

Snape is on the good side, or should I say he is on Dumbledores' side, even more so now because of Snape's role in his death.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Just finished. No energy for the other thread.

Dumbledore is dead. Although he did say to Malfoy right before that "we can make you look dead." Still, I think he is dead. Snape killed him as was prearranged between them so he could continue in his role as Voldemort supporter.

Dumbledore's death brought me back to The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe/Christ. I think he knew his moment was coming, and was sad about it, but went through with it nonetheless.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 

quote:

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For Hogwarts-school he, Albus, ran
(The witchcraft school of wizardry):
Where elves cooked meals in the pan;
Where stairwells trapped a stumbling man;
Where there was much to see:
A great big forest for a ground,
With centaurs living all around;
A hospital with drugs and pills;
A great entrapping willow tree:
Right up in England’s northern hills
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But O! That deep romantic chasm (slanted)
Has been revealed to just be a cover!
A savage place! Not holy but enchanted
For Albus Dumbledore has been then ranted
By many whom we know are demons-lovers.
And then to kill him making us all seethe,
Whilst Albus is unable but to breathe…!
By Avada Kedavra he was cursed,
Until the lively spirit from him burst;
He died without a knowledgeable trail,
Against the Dark he knows that we’ll now fail.
He will remain dead, he won’t live – for ever!
O when he took a sail then by the river

With Harry by him, rowing with slow motion,
While death-consumers through the school-halls ran,
And raced up stairs as quickly as one can –
Especially the maker of the potion!
Amid this turmoil Harry knew from far,
That this damned battle will not end the war.

The shadow of the death of pleasure
Ending with a land of graves;
Agony could not be measured
As he fared a goodbye wave.
For Voldemort that day’d devise
To stare at death with laughing eyes.

A demon with a wand at hand
In real life he saw:
He was the one whose name’s not said,
And Harry on the ground he laid:
Screeching with a Crucioed pain.
Could I revive within myself
His pain that lasted long?
To such a depth ‘twould kill me
That to think of deeds so wrong
I would stop the daily fire from flare,
The day rethought – not played with dice!
And all who saw would stare right there
And all should cry, “Beware! Beware!”,
The Dragon sleeps within his lair!

Kill the Lord – the Devil’s vice –
And stare at him with holy dread:
For he on bone, flesh, blood had fed
And he to men was never nice.

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
I have a weird question: What does Hermione get from the boys for Christmas?

Most of the time the Christmas morning scene is told from Harry's perspective; we find out what Harry and Ron gave each other, but no information on what Hermione received.

I hope in at least one of the books they mentioned what the boys gave her, but I can't really remember which one.

/derailment

[ August 04, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Didn't she get them homework planners last year?
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Last year (book 5) Ron gave her unusual smelling perfume. It mentioned what Harry gave her as well, I think, but I don't remember what it was.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Ah, thanks guys.

I do remember the homework planners. I wasn't aware that Hermione got perfume from Ron. That is a totally come on gift.
 

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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
lol, poor Ron getting the love potion from Vane .

.... actually speaking of which why was it again half the girls at Hogwarts wanted to go out with Harry again? Was it the thing at the Ministry?
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
This is an EVIL shirt! *spoiler warning*

Why do I want one? Why??!?!
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
That is frickin' awesome.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I want the British version, for added confusion.
 

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Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
 
I want the British version too.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
I was leaning towards Evil Snape, but I just reread in GoF where Dumbledore is making plans after Voldemort returns and says something to the effect of "Severus, are you prepared to do what you must do?" And he looks paler than usual and left. What's his task... go back?

And, since it's a new thread, I'm gonna put this out there for people to discuss: Harry is a Horcrux. Either he's the 7th part of V's soul or the 8th. Yes, it was an accident, and I'll back it up more when I'm not at work

Harry and Ginny will elope in the beginning of Book 7. Yeah, it's real easy to predict that they'll get back together, but based off what Mrs. Weasley said about people running off and eloping last time V came to power, I think that's what Harry and Ginny will do.

Then they'll die together in the end.

(I tend not to make many friends when I give my predictions... I wonder why)
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
Harry is not a horcrux. And Dumbledore will not come back, not because Rowling can't make him come back, she clearly has a couple of existing ways (or could invent a new one), but because she won't bring him back. She was bawling when she wrote that scene. She would lose all credibility by toying with the readers' emotions and people wouldn't want to read anything else she writes after HP.

I wonder, if Harry and Ginny get back together near the beginning of the book, will Harry tell her all about his lessons with Dumbledore? He promised not to tell anyone but Hermione and Ron, and seems like he really wants to keep that promise. I'm guessing that unless he gets the OK from portrait-Dumbledore to tell a few other people, he won't get back together with Ginny until later in the book.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I can believe that Harry is a horcrux for Riddle.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I think Riddle was planning on making a Horcrux with Harry's death, and something happened. He may not be a Horcrux, but he has something of Riddle's on account of it, I'm sure of that.

And I agree completely with Tom - Dumbledore is really dead, and Snape isn't a bad guy.
 

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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
I remeeber that scene too, interesting how we all still have hope for Snape despite what he did. And quite possibly Harry is a Horcrux considering we don't actually know if Riddle found an artifact or Ravenclaw or griffendor.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I don't see how Riddle finding or not finding a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor artifact has anything to do with whether or not Harry is a horcrux. He was planning to use Harry's death to create one, so he definitely had an object.
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
i think harry is a horcrux.it all comes from riddle thinking that theres nothing worse than death. he made harry a horcrux because he thought there would be no way harry would sacrifice himself
 

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Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
 
interesting.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 

quote:

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I want the British version

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quote:

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Originally posted by Damien.m:
i think harry is a horcrux.it all comes from riddle thinking that theres nothing worse than death. he made harry a horcrux because he thought there would be no way harry would sacrifice himself

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Then why is he trying to kill Harry (thus destroying part of his soul)?
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
Because he knows that particular piece of his soul is in his mortal enemy - we discovered in OotP that Harry and LV can pretty much sit in on what each other is up to, and LV doesn't want Harry to become a super-legilimens and start reading his mind. He's also got enough shards of his soul away from his body that destroying one won't do anything. Dumbledore did say he probably doesn't notice when a Horcrux is destroyed.
 

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Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
 
That's not the point, Vid- Voldemort tried to kill Harry as a baby, remember, before Harry survived the Avada Kedavra that crippled him. It would make zero sense for Voldemort to purposely turn the child he is about to murder into a Horcrux, as (if all goes as planned), said child will be dead shortly. I suppose he could have been planning to turn Harry's corpse into a Horcrux, but decomposition probably annihilates soul shards as well as any other method of Horcrux-destruction.

Now, Harry accidentally receiving some Horcruxy properties from Voldemort's misfired Avada Kedavra, that I could believe. But there's no way Voldemort arrived at Godric's Hollow with the intention of making Harry Potter into a Horcrux.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Tarrsk's second paragraph sums up my feelings on the subject pretty well. Which begs the question, why am I even posting. *insomnia strikes*
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Good point Tarrsk however we cannot say what voldemorts true motives were that night in godrics hollow. for instance, why did he bring someone to godrics hollow with him? now before you start saying that we have no evidence there was someone there with him think about this. how did he get his wand back??? he could not have taken it with him as he was only a soul fragment. and who destroyed the house? hagrid said he found the house in ruins but avada kedavra doesnt inflict any damage.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 

quote:

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now before you start saying that we have no evidence there was someone there with him

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quote:

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Originally posted by Vid:
Harry is a Horcrux. Either he's the 7th part of V's soul or the 8th. Yes, it was an accident

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Come on guys, do you actually read my posts?
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 
I sure as hell don't.

Oh ****, that's a ****ing paradox.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Harry is in no way a Horcrux, and it's getting sooooo tiresome explaining that! He was "marked as an equal" but that's the extent of it. Booooooo horcrux theories! Dumbledore is dead. Snape still has a chance.
 

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Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
 
Yeah i think Snape is good. But maybe thats because i just want him to be good.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
I don't know if you guys have seen http://dumbledoreisnotdead.com, but there are more and more people thinking, for mainly the reasons the guys gives, that Dumbledore isn't dead - or will be coming back. Here's my biggest argument against all that nonsense: Harry is the literary Christ figure in the book, not Dumbledore. If JKR is miraculously bring a person back from the dead, it's going to be Harry, not Dumbledore.

So while we're on the subject of Dumbledore, here's a funny... well, I don't know if I'd call it a theory; a funny idea. Since we don't know what Dumbledore was silently casting on Harry, how do we know that Dumbledore wasn't making Harry into a Horcrux for himself? 1)We don't know how recent the murders have to be to use the soul shards in the Horcruxes. 2)We know Dumbledore defeated Grindewald, and we don't know if Dumbledore had to kill Grindewald or not. 3)We know it's possible to do magic without a wand. 4)We know next to nothing about Horcruxes.

For the record, I really don't think DD is coming back at all, but I like how outrageous people's theories get.

And Harry-as-a-Horcrux is not outrageous
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by akhockey:
Harry is in no way a Horcrux, and it's getting sooooo tiresome explaining that!

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quote:

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Why would this application of the Avada Kedavra be so different from every other time we've seen it?

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quote:

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But it's not a two way street. It's a one way street that is constantly driven in the wrong direction by anxious student drivers!

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quote:

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Denial is very powerful.

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There are always possibilities.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
In all honesty, we've only "seen" a few instances of AK. Let's look at them. In the ones that worked, there were a few different reactions to it. Cedric -- slumped dead. Old man -- slumped dead. Both of these acts of AK were commited in a completely calm manner. Voldy just calmly disposed of them, for example, he said something like "Kill the spare...", when he had Ceddy offed. The old man was the same situation. Also, with the spider and Moody. Nothing important.

Now we have the other confirmed uses of AK. First, we have the Potters' deaths. This is really an unknown, so I'm only using it because of the result (which may not really be legit, but I'll go for it anyways...), but it was most likely an incredibly emotional and significant murder on Voldemort's part. Next, we have Snape's murder of Dumbledore, again, highly emotional. It also resulted in a rather destructive death.

The only other times we've even seen AK performed, it was with high emotions -- and look at the results! LV sets a desk on fire, objects hit with the curse are destroyed, and all kinds of mayhem occur. I can understand the argument that the curse has different results against objects, but I'm just throwing this out there. In all the laid back murders, the person just dies. In all the rage-induced or highly emotional murders, objects are destroyed, people go flying...it seems that the emotion behind the murder depicts what will happen to the person and surroundings behind the murder.

DD is dead, Harry isn't a Horcrux, Snape could be good...
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
When is the desk set on fire?

And if I'm not mistaken, other spells damage objects, too. I think stupefy has singed eyebrows, other unknown spells have punched holes in things, etc.

However, I do totally agree with you. Snape is clearly highly emotional - either from killing the man who has protected and stood up for him, or killing the man he hates oh so much.

Or it could be dramatic license.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Yeah...I hope it isn't dramatic license though. That would be...well lame. It makes sense though, in the *big* deaths, the results been extreme. So who knows...I think the desk is set on fire when LV sends an AK curse at either Harry or DD, and they duck it or it misses and the wand-weighing security desk bursts into flames...book 5 in final fight
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
As to Dumbledore being on the wall--I don't think the "former headmaster" theory works, because Dumbledore has been not the headmaster several times before. In the second book the board of governors asked him to step down; and in the fifth book, he did a bunk and Umbridge was headmistress for a while. So during those periods, he was the former headmaster.

Of course, Harry didn't go into the office during either of these periods...it had locked itself against Umbridge...so it could still be.

Jen
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
I'm not sure anyone has spelled out the real significance of Snape's unbreakable vow, where he swore to Draco Malfoy's mother that he would protect Malfoy. As elaborated in the story in a conversation between Dumbledore and Harry, an unbreakable vow compells you to keep it, on pain of death.

Now consider the circumstances there on the astronomy tower. Dumbledore immobilizes Harry, who is also wearing his invisibility cloak. Dumbledore is held at wand's point by Draco long enough for them to converse a bit, and Draco cannot bring himself to kill the weakened Dumbledore, even though he said Voldemort has threatened to kill him and his entire family if he does not. Draco is actually lowering his wand, despite the appearance of the other Death-Eaters. Professor Snape enters the scene, sizes up what is happening, and knows that there is only one way he can save Draco from being killed by Voldemort. He shoulder's Draco aside, and kills Dumbledore. This was the only thing Snape could do, compelled by his unbreakable vow to protect Draco.

What I cannot decide is whether Dumbledore failed to remember that Snape had made that unbreakable vow and was begging for his own life; or whether he did remember, and knew that Snape must kill him to save Draco, and so was actually begging Snape to go through with it despite his possible reluctance when he said "Severus---please!" If Snape had not gone through with it, the three Death-Eaters would have overpowered Snape even if the unbreakable vow did not kill him outright, and Draco would have been killed either by the Death-Eaters right there and then, or by Voldemort himself later.

So the possibility remains open that Snape might still be a double-agent (or quadruple agent, however you want to look at it) biding his time for the opportunity to help destroy Voldemort. But virtually everyone now is convinced he is on Voldemort's side.

Draco survives, and we now know that his previous clumsy attacks against Dumbledore were coerced, and at the bottom line he is not utterly loyal to Voldemort. So maybe Snape and Draco can team up in a covert manner, somewhat like the way Harry and Albius Dumbledore had been a sort of team for so long.

But I still wonder why it was that Snape entered so willingly into the unbreakable vow to Draco's mother.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
As to why the Avara Kedavara curse manifested differently when Snape used it that when used by others, it may depend a lot on who is using it. In book five, Harry tried the Avara Kedavara curse on Voldemort (or was it one of the Death-Eaters), but it had no lasting effects. The person Harry had attacked quickly recovered, and said sneeringly, "With all Dark Magic spells, you have to really mean it."

As for making a Horcrux--only Snape would have been able to do that, since he was the one who killed Dumbledore. But earlier Slughorn, in the penseive session, said to Tom Riddle that a special spell had to be performed along with killing someone.

Just to be really zany, off the wall completely--what if in actual effect, Dumbledore were deliberately committing suicide? And what if he was able to use that special spell as he died? Maybe Dumbledore has a horcrux somewhere. Maybe it is that locket that Harry was carrying.

Can't wait for the seventh novel in the series. If it is truly to be the end of the series, then Rowling has a lot of plot threads to tie up.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
The Lestranges went after the Longbottoms in order to track down Voldemort and bring him back to life, after Lily and James were killed. They would have checked the house for his remains, horcruxi, possessions, etc. if they could get near it.

Barty Crouch Jr. was part of that group, and ultimately returned to Voldemort before he regained his body. He's the likely candidate for returning Voldemort's wand.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
"But I still wonder why it was that Snape entered so willingly into the unbreakable vow to Draco's mother. "

Because Dumbledore told him to. He tells this to Draco as he talks to him on the tower top. The unbreakable vow was simply to protect Draco, regardless of what he must do in order to comply. Dumbledore must see the possibility of Draco's goodness. I think Dumbledore's basic philosophy is that doing something good increases goodness, no matter how it may appear evil. Offering to protect another human being is by it's nature good, so regardless of the consequences, Dumbledore would have wanted it that way.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
"Harry tried the Avara Kedavara curse on Voldemort (or was it one of the Death-Eaters), but it had no lasting effects. The person Harry had attacked quickly recovered, and said sneeringly, "With all Dark Magic spells, you have to really mean it.""

Harry tried to use the cruciatus curse, not Avadra Kedavra.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Harry's tried the Cruciatus several times. He's a pretty nasty kid.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Nah. He's a teenager. Mostly, they all try to crucify people.

Don't you remember high school?
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
What does the base word of crucify mean? Because the descriptions of the spell in the book don't sound anything like the effects of an actual crucifiction - does it have broader implications?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Crucify is from crux, which means "cross." The word excruciate, which means "to inflict severe pain through torture," comes from the practice of crucifixion.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
that makes sense
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
I really need to stop reading this thread. I've argued all of this in the other thread, and this is just annoying me. Now, if anyone spots me in here again, just yell at me and kick me out! And then go read the other thread so that we don't have everyone arguing the same topics over and over and over (plus there are some really interesting theories there).
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Well... so far his Cruciatus curses haven't worked because his anger, fundamentally, is righteous. So... what happens if, in the next book, he fires one at Snape in a blind rage, only in a crucial moment?

I mean, I'm all for Harry not being a murderer and Snape and Malfoy turning turncoat, but I'd like to see Snape writhe in pain for a while before convincing Harry.

Of course, that probably won't happen. He'll probably save the day and die doing it, like your usual tortured repentant. And I guess I'm okay with that.

But my point is, Harry has probably progressed to the mental status where he's capable of using an Unforgiveable Curse to great effect.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Thanks, Glenn Arnold, I stand corrected. But Harry was told that with all the dark curses, "you have to mean it," so that would be true for the avara kadavera curse.

If the crucius curse is meant to inflict ultimate pain, what would happen if you said, "cruciatus maximus?" I mean, if "Lumos maximus" makes Harry's wand shine brighter....

The Avara Kedavara curse sounds like you are wishing the victim to become a cadaver. But it does also sound vaguely like the more familiar "Abracadabra," which was a magical incantation of apparently Gnostic derrivation.

[ August 09, 2005, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Hogwarts is chock full of ghosts. If I recall correctly, the History Teacher is a ghost. If ghosts can hang around, and even have positions on the faculty, I don't see why Dumbledore can't remain a ghostly headmaster.

Although, I can see him mourning his inability to eat sweets.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
You have to have a reason not to go on to the afterlife. The way Nearly Headless Nick explained it, it sounded like ghosts were either people who were really afraid of death or (from Moaning Myrtle's experience) people who were determined to haunt someone for the rest of their days. I don't think Dumbledore would be afraid, and he would probably find haunting Voldy to be beneath him (though it would be very convenient).

:sneaks back out of thread before her presence is noticed:
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
As I recall, the history teacher kind of died quietly and didn't notice, so kept on with his lectures. Dumbledore might want to retain his headmaster's postition.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
They could have a class taught by Dumbledore's picture.

And hey, come to think of it, why isn't a picture a horcrux?
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Something tells me we always have to think there's unmentioned restrictions when it comes to the picture thing.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
Have you ever noticed that the portraits always follow Dumbledore's instructions, and they never offer advice? Maybe that's all they're there for.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Probably like a lot of things in Hogwarts, they exist to serve only the Headmaster.
 

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Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
They are supposed to serve whomever is the current headmaster/headmistress. And I don't think you can really say that they don't offer advice. Doesn't Phineas always give his opinion and say that he wouldn't do things the way Dumbledore does?
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Maybe the pictures are recordings that incorporate artificial intelligence. Who says there's no high tech at Hogwarts?

Speaking of which, if Voldemort really wants to do harm, why doesn't he just raid a nuclear arsenal? It does annoy me how much the "Wizarding World" ignores Muggle science and technology, let alone Muggle politics. Or don't they care if Muggles blow up the world?

But Rowling also ignores the American Wizarding World, except for mentioning their team in the Quidditch World Cup. Surely, on the basis of population, the American Wizarding World should be ten times bigger than the British, its villains ten times badder, its heroes ten times more heroic, and its magical creatures ten times more strange and varied. We need an American Harry Potter!
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
Dumbledore's far too busy having his Next Great Adventure to bother with anything on the plane of mere mortals.

Though I know he's most definetely dead, I'm leaning toward a non-AK death due to past experiences we've had with the AK curse. I think Snape did his famous Leviacorpus and made Dumbly fall to his death. But I have no doubts that he is really and truly dead

PS there were more than two instances of the Avada Kedavra curse -- there was the GoF spider *where the death was carefully described because it was a classroom setting where the effects were studied*. There was also the fox in Spinners End.
 

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Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Good call on the fox. Another careless AK that resulted in a limp body. And, yeah, like MidnightBlue said, ghosts are people who are scared to go on or have a reason to stay (FOREVER, not just to see something through). DD is a mad adventurer. Something as trivial as death is no biggie for him.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Man, I think the Harry Potter books would become absolutely terrible if the wizards started raiding nuclear arsenals and carrying pump action shotguns or something. Logic has little to no place in good fantasy. I guess you could say that they're not doing it because they don't understand the Muggle world, but mostly they don't do it because it would ruin the effect of an independent, secret, fantastical world.

I mean, wouldn't it suck if in Men in Black all the aliens wanted to do was get a nuclear warhead, or walked around with glocks? Shouldn't they have tons and tons of cool alien stuff that has no relation to the mundane world?
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
I've always thought it would be hilarious if in the grand final battle, the "power to defeat the Dark Lord" is simply the ability to shoot a rifle. That or as the final battle approaches, the Muggle police show up and as he curses them one at a time, they all open fire and tear him to shreds.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Heck, can you imagine how different the plots of the last three books would have been if only the students at Hogwarts, like all the other teenagers in England, had cell phones?
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Of course, we know from Pettigrew that there are spells that can blow an entire street apart.

So... who needs a rifle? Avada Kedavra is probably the only 100% certain killing curse. All the others are just "very, very damaging" curses, which might be able to be blocked.

I doubt if they teach those at school, though.

Seems like a lot of the really awesome stuff they use aren't taught in school. I mean, they don't teach you to communicate with Patronuses in school, in answer to the cell phone idea.
 

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Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
 
Well, nobody knows how to communicate with Patronuses except Order members... and maybe it's something only Dumbledore could teach. Ouch.
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Afterward we can pick apart all the things that require suspension of disbelief in the Harry Potter stories. I admit to a certain perverse pleasure in doing that. But I also have to admit that the Harry Potter stories are very engrossing and entertaining, and J.K. Rowling deserves the accalim and wealth she is receiving. She is a good story-teller, and has a wonderful imagination. Thank you, JKR, for all the fun!
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
Just recently finished HBP (downside of a 19-hour audiobook of something I could have read in 4-6 hours). Almost all of the bits that were "Hey! Here's a secret to wonder about!" I thought were completely predictable, and the fun bits and surprises were in the subplots (quidditch, various romances, etc). The teacher switch did catch me though, with Slughorn doing potions instead of dark arts. As soon as the HBP was actually mentioned though, in the old potions book, my thought was "PLEASE be anybody but Snape, that's way too obvious."

I'm looking forward to the 7th book mainly because with them out of Hogwarts it should be very different from the other 6. I like the other 6, but I've grown tired of some of the recurring themes: Dragging out every time Harry is told anything out over several conversations. Having something highly suspicious and not telling anybody who'd actually know what it is or who its about. That sort of thing.

For me, when the books are fun they're very fun, but when they try to be serious they usually seem very forced and just don't do it for me.

--Enigmatic
 

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Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Dumbledore wouldn't be a ghost- you've seen his attitude of death many times- like when Harry is nervous about Flamel dying and DD says that it's just like going to sleep.

He also would not have a horcrux- I can't remember who said this- because you have to kill to have one.

JK has said that that "gleam of triumph" or whatever it is will play a really big role in book 7.

I think there's another thing that is going to happen people often forget. I think Peter Pettigrew will help Harry somehow. At the end of book 3 when DD is talking about the bond between him and Peter for saving his life and stuff. And that someday he will be thankful for keeping him alive. I think that's a definite thing to look out for.

I think Snape is good- he wasn't pleading with Snape to stop from killing- Harry was right there- DD was the one who stopped Harry from doing anything to Snape. And I also think that Draco will have to hide from Voldy.

So I think the main people in Book 7 helping Harry will be Ron, Hermione- in the beginning- I don't think they can help him near the end at all. And Draco, Snape, and Pettigrew.

Thats my .02 dollars.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
How much do you really have to mean it? Does that mean you have to hate the person you're killing? Because it seems to me that Voldemort kills people just for fun, or just because they're sort of not convenient for him. He didn't seem to be in much of a strop with Frank Bryce or Cedric, and Mr. Weasley says in the fourth book that the Death Eaters did Muggle killings for fun. So what does it mean to "mean it"?

Jen
 

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Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
Interesting point, Fyfe. And why wouldn't Harry's heart really be in hurling a Crucius curse at the man who killed his parents?

What was that about "a gleam of triumpth in his eyes"? I missed that. Did Dumbledore have a gleam of triumph in his eyes when he died? I read a library book, so I don't have it on hand.

Yes, it does look like Draco will have to hide out from Moldywart. That's an intriguing idea about Peter Pettigrew yet helping Harry somehow. Maybe he'll turn out to be the Gollum of the story.

I am somewhat disappointed at the so far apparent pairing up of Harry with Ginny and Ron with Hermione. I thought Harry and Hermione are best friends, and really belong together. Ron would just be a charity case for Hermione.
 

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