A woman I know , "Laura" has been beaten by her boyfriend, badly enough to go to the hospital, supposedly the ICU. She went back to him when she got out, and won't press charges. This is the first clear evidence of abuse that I've heard, but I'm not surprised. The boyfriend is a complete drunk who drinks on the job, as a temp worker.
I'm getting this second-hand, from a mutual friend "Jane".
Laura has other problems too: she has barely worked in the past year, she's applying for SSI disability. My opinion is she is partially disabled but could work at least part-time. Laura refuses to look for work. Jane and I think this is in part because of Laura's addiction to prescription pain medicine, which she takes for arthritis, the basis for her disability claim.
Laura and her boyfriend have been homeless off and on for the past year and a half. Now they are renting a room by the week.
So, to sum up: 1)Laura has been badly beaten recently by her boyfriend. 2)she's been homeless recently and probably will be in the near future. 3)She may be addicted to rx painkillers. She certainly takes a lot. 4)she refuses to get a job
Me and Jane are going to try and see her tomorrow or sunday. We were going to do an "intervention" about her rx abuse, but then decided we weren't prepared. So we are just going to see Laura and be supportive, and try to lay the groundwork for a possible future intervention.
Any thoughts, tips, advice, HELP??
I have to go to work but will check in later.
[ September 01, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
On the abuse front: call 1-800-799-SAFE. They will be much better qualified to help you help her. See http://www.ndvh.org/
On the addiction front, I don't know. Be sure to mention that to SAFE.
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
Im sorry my gut reaction. Men who abuse women should be castrated, and made to sit on an Fireant hill.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Chris,
It wouldn't stop the abuse.
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
I know thats why I said its a gut reaction. which I control succesfully. I was raised by my mom that Hitting girl(Women) was wrong. and My grandmother taught me that a Man has the responsibility and the duty to protect the women that he comes in contact with.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ugh. Chris, that sort of attitude makes me want to vomit. Hitting people is wrong, but when you put it like that. . . *shudder*
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
Im sorry I offended you Eljay. I would like to know what part of my attidude offended you so i can examine it and make the nessisery corrections.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Honestly Chris, I don't see it as offensive at all. Men are generally stronger than women(though not universally) and it is the responsibility of the strong to stand up for and protect the weak.
Modern women just don't like admitting weakness. I personally don't have any problem admitting that I'd rather not armwrestle any man, since I know I would most likely lose.
Movies and stuff have made the image of the strong woman popular, but just because Michelle Pfifer's Cat Woman kicked the guano out of Batman doesn't mean *I* can. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I didn't say offended, Chris, and that's not really the way I feel about it. And I certainly wouldn't care to armwrestle most men. I do happen to be strong for a woman, but I have no delusions. . . most men are a lot stronger than I am.
I don't want to pick a fight here, and I'm not having much success at writing out my thoughts on the matter in a way that explains them clearly. I'm sorry, I have no doubt that you have nothing but the best intentions in what you said and honestly want to know why I find it distastful, but I'm just not going to be able to explain it. Suffice it to say I would rather lose on my own than be the responsibility and duty of someone else, man or woman. That doesn't mean I won't accept help if it is offered and I need it, but it does mean that it's my choice if I want it or not. That's different from all the men I know deciding they need to protect me.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Oh, I see what you mean, and it is an important distinction.
I was thinking of it as a mother of two boys, and I want them to understand their responsibilities to others. I've never been prouder of my boys than when they stick up for a kid who is hurting.
But yeah, being forcibly 'cared for' like livestock or something... Yes, that is horribly distasteful.
I didn't mean to upset you with my comment. I just didn't see what you saw, but now I do. I'm sorry. *hug*
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Can you?
I sure hope she decides to make a change.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Can you?
You can help them want to be helped, though.
Sometimes, with a lot of patience, wisdom, and luck.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
No worries, Olivet. I totally see where you're coming from, too, especially as a mother. I'd just rather mother's taught their kids "It's not okay to hit" instead of "It's not okay to hit girls." (Not talking about you now, talking in general.)
I've just encountered a few too many men who wanted to take care of me and have me not have to worry about anything ever again, who didn't understand why I might not be interested in such an arrangement. So I'm perhaps a bit over-sensitive to male "protection."
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Wow, Morbo, that's such a tough one. Laura is lucky that you're so concerned.
Could it be possible that her getting help for her painkiller addiction could change her willingness to be someone's punching bag? I'm wondering how much her judgement is affected by the addiction.
I don't think there is any "right" answer here as each case and woman is different. I guess if it were me I would listen to her. Why doesn't she leave? Is it because she thinks abuse is okay, or is she worried about finances, etc.? Is she afraid of what might happen to her physically if she left this man? I think getting some answers to questions like these may help you decide in what ways you can offer help. I think sometimes women don't leave partially because of fear of the unknown, and if you can address some of her worries about the future that may help Laura make a change.
Good luck.
space opera
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
We had an Enrichment Night where we had a speaker from a local safe house for abused women and children.
Your job, as someone who has not seen the abuse happening first-hand or had a first-hand account of it, is to express your horror at abuse and provide resources, such as the number of a local safehouse or a national hotline.
If you had this first-hand, your job would be, as well as what I've already mentioned, to listen and provide emotional support for the woman in whatever choices she makes while gently providing facts about abuse and that it generally gets worse, not better, preferably through a third party (like pamphlets published by an anti-abuse organization.) Unfortunately, it takes most women between six and nine "tries" or false starts to leave an abusive relationship, unless something truly awful-- like a child being severely injured-- happens. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Thanks for the advice and sympathy, ya'll. Jane and I have known Laura since the 80s and don't know what to do.
quote:Originally posted by Will B: You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Can you?
I sure hope she decides to make a change.
No, you can't. Me and Jane (Jane and Laura are pseudonyms) have been very frustrated with Laura and her extreme lack of motivation to help herself over the past year. She had an average apartment last year. The rent was very reasonable--about $540 including utilities. Split with her boyfriend, very cheap. Yet they managed to get evicted for nonpayment.
Since then, they have lived in a tent; in a car, which was later towed and lost; various motels; and now a boardinghouse, which of course costs more than than the apartment they lost.
Jane and I thought living in a tent for a few months would convince Laura she really no-foolin' had to get a job. But it didn't. I think Laura has worked just a month or two since late 2003.
We don't understand. She used to be a hard worker but it's like she's just given up. Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
I'd like to echo all the advice here that you clearly are a true friend but you also need to be careful not to 'rescue' her but to provide her all the support / information Laura needs so that she leaves herself.
I'm sure women accept / suffer abuse for countless different confused reasons. But one of the most common is that the choice to leave, take control of their lives and be independent is somehow scarier than staying in poverty, misery, interdependence and the abusive relationship. There is a comfort in a known shared misery.
Chris Kidd : (I think we have all agreed in the thread so this is just my additional thoughts)
I responded the same way as El Jay to your comment. Firstly HITTING is wrong, not hitting women. I hate the thought that anyone might have been brought up to protect women by hitting men???
And secondly, it is important that we each fight our own battles, I can ask another for help, another can offer help but another should never step in and fight my battles for me. Or the even more passive (and horrendous) 'take care of me like livestock'. Unless you want to create another Laura who is so scared of her independence that she puts up with misery instead. Which clearly we don't!
Morbo, good luck, let us know how she responds to your encouragement.
This might not relate to Laura at all but ... additional thought, there is a really good book called 'women who love too much' about the psychology of women who associate being in love with being in pain.
She has an addiction to pain killers, a boyfriend who beats her, she's lived in a tent, a car that they took away (who tows someone's HOME?) and you don't understand why she's given up?
-Katarain
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Yes, but she gave up on finding work before almost all of that happened. I think the overuse of painkillers started it all.
This is the first serious beating, AFAIK. Though of course I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened before.
The saddest thing was the textbook battered woman syndrome defense she gave of her boyfriend: she told Jane that someone must have "slipped" the BF vodka on top of the beer he drinks all day, so that's why he got violent. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Speaking as a previously battered, previously homeless and previously drinking alcoholic....
...it takes a lot of time AWAY from that environment to get your mind to start thinking properly.
In other words, it would take pulling her away from the people she is with now, putting her somewhere where she would be encouraged to clean up, somewhere we she had restricted access to her prescriptions, in order to start turning things around. Serious intervention.
The job thing is secondary -- that comes about because of how she feels about herself (worthless and deserving of her current condition). If she could get into an in-house, strict intervention or shelter program long enough that she could start thinking of herself differently, then the job thing would be a natural step after that.
But it is like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs -- she is not doing well at the very basic, bottom level of physical needs, so the others (where job would fall) aren't even on her mind at all -- the whole idea is probably overwhelming.
Farmgirl
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Space Opera: Could it be possible that her getting help for her painkiller addiction could change her willingness to be someone's punching bag? I'm wondering how much her judgement is affected by the addiction.
Yes, but not in the way you mean. More likely the shame of the addiction is leading her to believe she deserves the abuse, or at least, doesn't deserve better. Chances are he does something for her that she feels unworthy of, so she puts up with the abuse because she feels she owes him forgiveness in return for the way he puts up with her (insert issue here). The addiciton is a likely candidate for this.
Of course I'm going on very little information and projecting from my own experience like mad; so, I could be way off, but these patterns tend to be pretty clear.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: The job thing is secondary -- that comes about because of how she feels about herself (worthless and deserving of her current condition). If she could get into an in-house, strict intervention or shelter program long enough that she could start thinking of herself differently, then the job thing would be a natural step after that.
Belle, that makes sense, but I doubt we can talk her into entering such a program, at least now. Jane says Laura refuses to admit she has a problem with narcotics, and I have never confronted her about it, despite evidence I've seen--the jobless situation, constantly asleep, groggy, etc.
We're trying to build some trust now, then do an intervention in the future.
We might have to rethink our "job first" approach though.
quote: Chances are he does something for her that she feels unworthy of, so she puts up with the abuse because she feels she owes him forgiveness in return for the way he puts up with her (insert issue here). The addiciton is a likely candidate for this
The (insert issue here) is probably her refusal to get a job. I know the BF is increasingly frustrated that she won't work. Jane said he even found a job for Laura last month, but she refused to go. I bet that was one of the last straws that tipped him into violence, but I'm just guessing.
She clings to the hope that she will get SSI, payments from Social Security for being disabled. But that can take years, and she might never qualify.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by firebird: I'm sure women accept / suffer abuse for countless different confused reasons. But one of the most common is that the choice to leave, take control of their lives and be independent is somehow scarier than staying in poverty, misery, interdependence and the abusive relationship. There is a comfort in a known shared misery.
This was really astute, Firebird.
Just to pipe up and defend Chris Kidd here... I don't think he's talking about stepping in and enfolding every woman he meets in his wings, I think he's talking about "if you see a man beating a woman" (which can easily be translated "a stronger, bigger person taking advantage of their size to attack in coawrdly fashion"), you should intervene to protect the weaker person.
There is nothing about this statement that implies you don't intervene on behalf of a child, for example, as well. It's not limited to women, it's addressing the situation of a woman.
As for hitting being ok in that situation, I've said repeatedly that if someone attacks a member of my family, their actions have made them responsible for their own consequences. If I were to witness an unprovoked attack on the street, I'd probably say the same.
Finally, it is of great importance to note that "rescuing" an abuse victim by beating their abuser, satisfying as it might be, is likely to aggravate the situation if the victim doesn't get away from it quickly. The abuser will likely take the shame and anger of being beaten out on his favorite victim at the next availible opportunity. So, Chris, it's good that you recognize the need to control that impulse.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I badly want to hurt the BF.
But that won't help Laura right now, of course that would only put her at more risk.
So, I have to swallow that anger for now.
In fact, I'm not going to go to Laura's boardinghouse today because I might lose control and get in a confrontation or fight. Jane will pick her up and we'll go to a restaurant and hash all this out.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
She probably won't agree to anything, Morbo, unless you can guarantee protection from BF. And she still has strong feelings for him.
But I know in my case, the fear of him finding me and killing me was stronger than anything else. So unless you can guarantee to her that won't happen, I wouldn't expect her to do anything right now.
FG
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
quote: I responded the same way as El Jay to your comment. Firstly HITTING is wrong, not hitting women. I hate the thought that anyone might have been brought up to protect women by hitting men???
I know fighting isn't the answer. what i do is put my self between them. useing myself as a sheild and Im not saying i go out and look for oppertunities to put myself in harms way. Ive only done it on occasion when it was clear the person was out numbered or out matched and couldn't defend themselfs.
to tell the truth I don'teven know how to fight. I just make sure im the one getting hurt instead of the other person.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Chris ... you don't need to defend yourself. After reading your subsequent posts I was clear in my head that your intentions are honourable and that I had misinterpretted your post.
I was just sharing how I had interpretted your post the first time.
Knights in Shining Armour ... what to avoid (IMHO)
A now ex but then bf and I went to a music festival. We were both madly dancing in the tent but he was always using his arms to keep the crowd away from me. I know he meant it as a kind act ensuring that i wasn't trampled on and that I had room to dance. But it felt to me like 'caring for me like livestock'. I didn't need him to keep the crowd away, I can and would have done that for myself. I didn't want to have to feel grateful for the protection that I didn't want. Does that make sense?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I got mistaken for Farmgirl. I consider it a compliment.
I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said, I just hope that she will get out of the environment and into a safe situation soon.
*hugs*
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Oops, sorry ladies.
Well, we didn't go today. Jane helped her sister find an apartment and I slept all day because I work 3rd shift.
Hopefully we'll go over tomorrow.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Update: To the suprise of no one, Laura has decided to stay with her boyfriend. She stayed in a battered woman's shelter briefly, less than 24 hours I think. They kicked her out for violating a rule, going back to her apartment.
Tellingly, the reason she went back was to pick up her drugs. Even though the shelter took her to the hospital to get a new prescription.
She asked me Tues. if she could stay with me temporarily, while she lined up another shelter. I said OK, for a couple of days.
She called back and left a message yesterday that she and the BF were moving in with some guy that "lives above a pawnshop. Jerry [the new roomate]is a very non-violent, peaceful type, and he will have a calming influence" on her drunken boyfriend.
Whatever.
Also, I learned that he had broken her nose in the early August incident and she stayed in the hospital 6 days, so it was probably quite a beating.
And the boyfriend has a warrant out on him for that assault, and supposedly is going to turn himself in. Yeah, right.
Maybe I'll turn him in, if I find where they live.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Oh man... Not being able to help someone you care for is one of the most perverse forms of hell, isn't it?
Sorry you're going through this, Morbo, and I hope Laura manages to get help in some way or another...
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
That is so sad, Morbo.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I WOULD turn him in. And I'd tip them off that there might be drugs in the place, too.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Morbo, this will probably echo some of what's been said here, but it's still important.
The first step is getting her out of the situation and into a safe environment. Until that happens, there is almost no chance of any positive change. There is a great chance of negative change if she doesn't leave.
And for that to be effective, she has to be willing to go to a safehouse and be kept safely. That sounds stupid, but a large percentage of battered women who seek out safehavens do abandon the place and return to their abusers. If I remember what I was told once, they return an average of three times.
In my hometown, the local shelter and organization behind it, OASIS, provided this care and security was of the utmost importance. In cases where the police were bringing an abused woman to them, the police didn't deliver them to the OASIS house but met them at a pre-arranged spot. The location of the house was not officially known to the police or sheriff's department (I personally believe that it was in a neighboring county, actually). I couldn't imagine a more secure set up and they have never had an incident of a spouse tracking down one of their shelterees there.
Perhaps you could research your local women's shelter and have them provide you with the advice and possibly assistance that you'll need.
Lastly, be gentle and supportive. The person needs to know that there are people out there who don't want to hurt them.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
(((Morbo))) It seems to me the joblessness, the acceptance of abuse, and the addiction are all symptoms of the same problem- a cycle of isolation and shame. She probably doesn't realize they are all the same problem. And she seems to see the very things that we see as problems as her solutions. Avoiding working, taking pills, clinging to the boyfriend.
I don't know what the answer is. Addicts typically reach bottom when the problem gets "bad enough", but when their definitions of bad and good seem to be categorically reversed, what can you do? She needs to see some truth, any truth, but she is blinded by the hope of getting the SSI. Like a compulsive gambler, that is her "score" and if she can just get there, everything will be peachy from then on out.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: And she seems to see the very things that we see as problems as her solutions. Avoiding working, taking pills, clinging to the boyfriend.
Hmmm, I never looked at it like that, but you're right.
There's nothing I can do now. I don't even know where they are staying.
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I'm sorry. *hug*
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and that I had misinterpretted your post.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)