An e-mail came through on my homeschool list for the Keepers of the Home group, and while it didn't interest me, I wanted to see what these folks had to say. Some of the reviews are, um, different. This line especially gets me:
quote: Tolkien was never a Christian, and never claimed to be. He was a Catholic
Comments, anyone?
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:It seems utterly silly to see “Christian” sources decry the black magic of Harry Potter, and then throw support behind the dark gray magic of Tolkien and his occult, New Age mutants, and call it Christian allegory. Whether purposefully, I know not, but surely enough, they, by their testimony, are introducing young people to the demonism of Harry Potter and worse by starting them down that road.
Umm.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
*snort*
Because everyone knows that Catholics make animal sacrifices to the Great Mother...
I'd be rolling my eyes REALLY hard if I hadn't just had that operation.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Sounds like someone on that list is a fundamentalist Christian who believes Catholics aren't Christian and are destined for hell.
That's not a belief I share but I know there are people out there like that. It's not surprising that they would take offense to both HP and LOTR if that is the way they think.
quote: Tolkien and his occult, New Age mutants, and call it Christian allegory.
Grr. It's NOT allegory. It was Tolkien's attempt to create a mythology for the English people and was never intended to be interpreted as allegory, Christian or no. It bugs me when people do this.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
However, there are people who try to interpret it as allegory. So I guess you and I agree with the writer, that interpreting LotR as Christian allegory is a bad thing. Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
well... no more than any other myth...
(I'm thinking Cupid and Psyche made a wonderful Christian Allegory in Till We Have Faces)
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Yeah! It's obviously an allegory on World War II.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: Tolkien was never a Christian, and never claimed to be. He was a Catholic
This statement is demonstrably false. Whatever one believes about Catholics being Christians. Tolkien, he most certainly claimed to be a (Edit: Christian). Further, while Tokien was NOT writing allegory, he was creating what he termed a pre-Christ, Christian world.
When he was a practicing Anglican, was he Christian then?
Basically it's the same B.S. Catholics have been putting up with in England and America for 400+ years. We're used to it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Dag -- don't you mean that he certainly claimed to be a Christian?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It teaches that salvation is by mandatory church membership, works and participation in Catholic sacraments. The church recognizes the existence of Jesus, but He is, in practice, a mere secondary issue to salvation. Notwithstanding the treacherous ecumenical efforts by the Catholic hierarchy and many high-ranking Protestants who are benefitting from ecumenicism, even the most recent papal encyclicals state that no one outside the Catholic church goes to heaven,
He could at least have the decency to not out and out lie.
Sheesh.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thanks, Porter. I fixed it.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
OMG! this has got to be the funniest thing I've ever read!
quote: Lewis openly admitted pursuing an interest in the occult. It is undoubtedly the source of material for his book The Screwtape Letters in which he claims to give his readers an understanding of the mind of the devil, delving into matters that Scripture tells the Christian to avoid.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:He believed in praying to statues, in buying masses and indulgences to reduce one’s time in purgatory, in the miraculous power of relics, in the saving power of wearing a scapular, that Christ is actually imprisoned in a piece of bread, that a human priest can forgive sins, that the pope is a god because he neither sins nor errs, and numerous other beliefs that have roots not in Scripture but in pagan mythology.
Good grief. HE'S JUST FLAT OUT LYING NOW.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
It really bothers me when one subset of Christians claim that another subset is not, in fact, Christains. That's one thing that really bugged me about these folks.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I'm still just fascinated by the idea that The Screwtape Letters is apparently an occult handbook... just wow...
if I quit laughing I'm gonna start crying...
and, BTW, can someone tell me when Alestair (sp?)Crowley became an Inkling?
Posted by Miriya (Member # 7822) on :
I have to say I find it really offensive when one group of christians feels the need to lie outrageously about another group of christians just to justify their opinions. *sigh*
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
More hate-filled rhetoric, certainly not new. Those jackasses got one thing right when they quoted, "There is nothing new under the sun." Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, it starts out by declaring they aren't Christians. They're Catholic.
If you say that out loud-especially with the period in there-you'll realize exactly the kind of idea it's reall stating (and it's certainly not just that Catholics aren't Christians), and how bigoted it really is.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Romanylass... this is your e-mail list... I want to apologize if I've insulted you or anyone you like... but the misinformation in that review is so laughably bad that it almost isn't funny...
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Jim-Me, no worries. I posted that in part because I was mad but couldn't say anything on the list- there are lots of Catholic families on our list and I think the OP'ers were pretty insensitive.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by romanylass: It really bothers me when one subset of Christians claim that another subset is not, in fact, Christains. That's one thing that really bugged me about these folks.
And yet that is done on this very board whenever someone points out the crimes for which Christianity is responsible, like inquisitions and crusades. "Ah, but they weren't Real Christians (tm)!"
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
It is? I've never seen it...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I haven't seen "Ah, but they weren't Real Christians (tm)!" I have seen "They were misusing Christian principles to justify un-Christ-like actions."
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Perhaps KoM could link to some examples?
I think he may be confused on some aspects of Christian doctrine. No flavor of Christianity that I'm aware of teaches that Christians can't or don't do bad things. And all of them acknowledge that bad things have been done by Christians in the past.
On the contrary, my particular faith teaches the total depravity of man so in my faith it's not at all surprising that people do terrible things, Christian and non-Christian people alike.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote: Tolkien was never a Christian, and never claimed to be. He was a Catholic. I was raised Catholic.
Um...Catholicism IS the original Christian church, all the others are spinoffs, if you will. And this dude seems to know nothing about the Catholic church.
quote:Tolkien and Lewis were practically partners. Lewis openly admitted pursuing an interest in the occult. It is undoubtedly the source of material for his book The Screwtape Letters in which he claims to give his readers an understanding of the mind of the devil, delving into matters that Scripture tells the Christian to avoid. Lewis and Tolkien were part of the same local guild. They met regularly—generally every week. The name of this literary guild was The Inklings. It met in a tavern called The Eagle and the Child (coincidental?), less often, it is said, during the war when there was a shortage of beer. Is there any wonder that the writings of the two are so similar? Those who have seriously studied The Inklings say that Tolkien was a considerable mentor to Lewis.
WhatEVER. Everyone knows that CSL fell out of religion and that Tolkien brought him back. But afterwards CSL became really into religion, almost too evangelical for Tolkien even...using allegory all the time in his writings to bring the reader to the Christ story. Tolkien never did like allegory.
quote:Though the Anglo-Saxon Beowulf was written about 1000 AD, the story was handed down through the centuries, and its roots go back to at least sixth century Scandinavia. It is a Scandinavian equivalent to Greek mythology—certainly not to Christianity. Notice the fascination of these men (and the group as a whole) with pre-Christian paganism. We know from Scripture that there was pre-Christian theism at the same time there was pre-Christian pantheism or paganism. None of the Inklings showed any interest in that direction.
Tolkien, in my mind, was trying to synchronize the huge amount of human works that fell outside Christianity with his belief system. He felt that his belief, the Catholic Church, was right, but he also refused to deny the importance and worth of things that were either outside the church or pre-Christian. He tried to show how even these things were part of the "divine plan", and thus have as much value as what you are taught in Sunday school. That everything was "Christian", or to put another way, that everything, though it might not seem it, is interconnected and might be more important than you think.
quote:He believed in praying to statues
Is this old myth still around? Catholics do NOT pray to statues. Statues to Saints, Angels, and the Holy Family are the same thing as statues in Washington DC. Statues to heros, to remember them. Except the church statues are indoors.
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