This is topic Is it really inappropriate to expect honorable behavior from today's students? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
I recently gave a take home quiz. I usually don't do this, because of the increased possibility of cheating, but I chose to because it was a precalculus quiz on graphing some fairly complicated functions, and I knew students would not be able to do it in anything like a reasonable amount of time in class. So I decided that, given the large number of quizzes I have given, the security of one was not of paramount concern.
I told students they could look in their books or notebooks while working on this quiz. I specifically told them, however, that they could not get answers from other people. I also required them to write an honor statement on their quizzes before turning them in: "On my honor as a student I have neither given nor received aid on this quiz." I also gave the students some pointed words about honor before they took the quiz home with them.
The day after this quiz was due, another teacher caught one girl who had not turned hers in copying the answers from the quiz of another girl who had also not turned her quiz in yet, in the other teacher's class. She took the quizzes and gave them to me. I noted the similarity of their answers and passed them on to a dean. The girl who had been copying admitted to doing so, saying that she had felt under a great deal of pressure because the class was hard, and she was thinking of dropping it.
Now the story has changed, and her parents (and their advocate) are fighting the consequence. We just had a meeting to discuss this. The contention of the family is that she did not cheat. However, aside from that, the following point was made:
"I don't agree with giving take-home quizzes. In 2005, it's not the same as it was a generation or two ago. The culture has changed. The kids have access to too much. It's unreasonable to think that this is not going to happen."
(In other words, she didn't cheat, but it's wrong for you to expect her not to cheat.)
Bear in mind that this is an honors level class.
The reason the family is fighting this is because the referral may keep her out of NHS--the reason being that NHS apparently expects their members to behave honorably. (The damage to her average from receiving a zero is minimal.)
I am very intrugued by this notion: not that it's unrealistic for me to expect honorable behavior and honesty, which it may possibly be, but that it's unreasonable to do so.
Any thoughts?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It is reasonable to expect honorable behavior. I can't express my thoughts about the parents within the confines of Hatrack's user agreement.
I hope your school doesn't cave.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It hasn't yet. We'll see what happens.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Cheating is such a huge problem in schools now, I can't believe it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Last year I used to have this column taped to my classroom window. It seems especially timely here.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
That's horrible Icarus. You're totally in the right. It's parents like this, that excuse bad behavior, that are an even bigger problem than the actual cheaters. If I'd cheated in high school, I would have been grounded for the rest of my high school career. And rightfully so.
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
The perspective of a high-schooler:
I consider myself an honourable person, and on take home quizzes don't ask for help...but then I don't usually need it. If a friend or class mate asked me for help, I help them without a second thought, and if I were honour-bound not to...well, I can take the hit.
However, if I have enough time, I go through it with them step by step and try to push them to finish questions by themselves. If I don't have the time, I’ll let them copy mais c'est la vie.
I get on quite well with my teachers, but there's a bond that your not going to break (and, I assume, have no intention of trying).
At the same time, if I were caught I would expect full repercussions. You made plain your place, and the breaking of that trust needs't be dealt with; so, full steam ahead.
Don't think less of the students involved because of these actions.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:"The kids have access to too much. It's unreasonable to think that this is not going to happen."
And yet, the method of cheating is one which would have been available to any child in the 20th century.
Do they think about this crap before they say it?
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I don't think their claim is worth considering, and I even doubt that they mean it. They're just using words to get you to do what they want. Nobody who behaves like them really merits listening to. Strong opinions, and just my humble ones, but there they are.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:And yet, the method of cheating is one which would have been available to any child in the 20th century
Or most other centuries. Any of them that included take-home quizzes, anyway.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
They think so little of their own parenting skills, then? A sad reflection upon themselves, but remarkably honest of them.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote: "I don't agree with giving take-home quizzes. In 2005, it's not the same as it was a generation or two ago. The culture has changed. The kids have access to too much. It's unreasonable to think that this is not going to happen."
(In other words, she didn't cheat, but it's wrong for you to expect her not to cheat.)
I think the parents are full of it. Nobody in the previous generation cheated? Nobody in the generation before that? Bull. Some people cheated and if they got caught they got in trouble for it and faced the consequences.
If there's anything that's changed in the culture it's that not many parents would be making lame excuses for their kids. Or they just did it in a different way: influence and favors instead of excuses and false victimization.
The kind of doublethink summed up in the parenthetical seems to be prevalent in our culture lately. But getting into specifics there would probably result in a big derailment.
In short: I hope the school doesn't cave in. Especially when you had the students write the honor statement and everything.
--Enigmatic
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I remember that article!
And I agree with Dags 100%.
Now, my students are somewhat less likely to cheat than the average HSers, because of the environment. (It happens, but very rarely.) So I'd consider the possibility that my expectations would be unreasonable for your students . . . except they're considered perfectly reasonable at Caltech, where take-home finals (in very high-pressure classes!) are common.
Throw the book at them.
Solar, I have little but contempt for someone who considers themselves "honorable," yet puts the convenience of a friend before honesty and integrity. Bond, shmond! You think you're doing them -- or yourself -- any favors? Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Interesting about the pressure... I wonder where the pressure on her to be in Honor Society could be coming from </dripping sarcasm>
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Thank you very much for that link, rivka. That could come in very useful if I am asked to defend the quiz.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You're very welcome. If it would be helpful, I can find out if my dad has an electronic version of the full Caltech honor code available.
[edit: He doesn't, but gave me some tips where to look online.]
Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
I think that the article you had on your door is appropriate. The funny thing is that Pitts himself had an "up-close-and-personal" experience with a form of cheating known as plagiarism recently. Apparently, there was this local columnist who wrote for a small town paper here in GA, and he would take chunks or even whole essays written by Mr. Pitts and have them published as his own work. When it came out that he had done this, he was immediately fired.
What parents and kids need to understand is that there are serious ramifications concerning cheating that go way beyond NHS eligibility. This is a pattern that, gone unchecked, can cost their child her livelihood. I realize that sounds rather extreme, but it works like that. What the parents are doing is stupid and setting their daughter up to do it again. If she's caught in college, they can't save her. Once she turns 18, they no longer have a voice when she does something stupid. At that point, it will be on her to take care of the issue. Universities are not kind to cheaters.
The sad part is that the girl has probably not learned anything from this except to be more sneaky next time.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
rivka- he certainly was doing his friend a favor
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Or most other centuries. Any of them that included take-home quizzes, anyway.
I was going to say that, but then I realized I have no idea when paper was available for homework on a regular basis to schoolchildren.
I still remember slates in Little House and Tom Sawyer. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
And you don't think you could copy someone's slate? Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
My policy on helping friends was that if they asked, I helped, unless I knew it wasn't allowed. So if it was an assignment I had, I would know what help was allowed. If it said "exam" on it, I'd know no help was allowed. Other than that, I expected my friends to police their own honor.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:And you don't think you could copy someone's slate?
I don't think it's a practical medium for taking work back to school.
"Teacher, the dog licked my homework."
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by AC: rivka- he certainly was doing his friend a favor
NO HE IS NOT.
And anyone who thinks he is really should learn to look farther ahead than the next week. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That is a very sad commentary on the parents themselves. I can't believe they would say such a thing.
I also hope the school doesn't cave.
The girl doesn't deserve to be in the National Honor Society if she is caught cheating in school. Period.
If this were my child, I would make her accept the consequences of her actions and consider it a good life lesson, and I'd support whatever punishment the school decided. Unfortunately, these parents aren't interested in actually parenting and teaching their child anything, they just want their kid to have all the advantages they can wrangle for them. And that's sad, because the kid will most likely now have a victim complex - "I didn't get what I deserved because the school and Mr. Icarus were unreasonable" instead of learning "Hey, I screwed up. I better not do it again."
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't like people like these who are excusing cheating, but I also don't like the precedent being set that any help outside of class is cheating (which seems to be the policy my old HS set). The reason I say this is my sister was accused of cheating. A Biology teacher (I think it was Biolgoy) gave the students an assignment to do at home, but it wasn't a take-home quiz or test or anything, just homework. My sister did it at home and went to school. A friend of hers was confused and asked for help, so being the nice person she is, she offered help. She didn't show the friend her answers (at least from what I was told, not just from her, but from others in the school, some teachers included), just offered some guidance as to what to do and such. Apparently some teacher saw this though and reported it. My sister and the friend both were failed on the assignment and written up for cheating. To me, that's too extreme and ridiculous. Now if it's like your situation Icarus where you've told them not to work together and make them sign on their honor that they aren't to work together, I can see them failing and getting in trouble for it. Heck even without those clauses, if it was a take home quiz or test, I could see failing someone if you saw them copying. It's when any sort of help is considered cheating that I just think it's bad. By this standard (which as I said my old HS has adopted), I've helped hundreds of people cheat, because I was always willing to offer help on assignments (even if it had been years since I had taken the class). Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but it just irritates me. Another case of the dishonorable getting the honorable in trouble. Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
Sure he was, any kind of assistance is a favor.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Not if it hurts the recipient.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Really, AC? So if I assisted someone in obtaining poison with which I knew they planned to kill themselves, that would be doing them a favor?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Icarus, I support your views 100%. The parents fighting the punishment are setting a terrible example, and I hope your school does not give into the pressure.
Having said that, I have to confess that I really hate take home exams. Take home exams are unfair for the honest students.
I took a whole bunch of them in college and law school, and every single time I know a lot of students cheated on those exams.
Unlike your student, most of the cheaters I know are sophisticated enough not to start copying each other's answer in school. In my experience, these cheaters are rarely caught, and even when they were accused of cheating, I've never seen them kicked out of school.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
Sure, if they really wanted to die. If I decide to commit suicide, I would get pissed at anyone who stood in my way (though it wouldn't bother me if they didn't want to help). (Whether or not I or somebody else might ever rationally decide to end their own life is something for another thread)
edited to remove hyperbole
edited again for a bit of clarification
[ August 25, 2005, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: AC ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
AC, your attitude sickens and saddens me.
Beren, shoulda gone to Caltech. They really take the honor code seriously there. And it's not enforced by staff or faculty.
It's enforced by a board of students.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
I figured it would, but that is honestly how I feel.
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
I may not have stressed how much time I spend...passing over my paper is a rare occurance indeed. And they have had to at least tried it - generally I'm in a "I need help but can't go to the teacher" role.
Good way for meeting girls.
Oh, and with all this talk of honour, the American loathing of the letter u is really starting to freak me out.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It should be a never occurrence. At the very least if it's a test or a quiz. (I disapprove of copying homework, but it's not quite as bad, IMO.)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Icarus, it's definately reasonable of you to expect honorable behavior. I've had a number of take home exams in both high school and college and maybe it's just me, but it's never crossed my mind to compare notes with someone else, especially when you can use the book for help. For homework I think asking people for help is ok because if you don't understand something, how else are you supposed to learn. Copying is one thing (though I agree with rivka, it's not as bad, but it's still sort of bad), asking for help is another.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
So... Doing me a favor = Doing something that helps me, whether or not I want it Or Doing me a favor = Doing something I want, whether or not it helps me
Which is it?
If it involves hurting me, I'd prefer you don't do me those favors. A good friend would not do favors that hurt you.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
And as to the topic, I think it has ALWAYS been reasonable to demand honorable behavior, but has ALWAYS been unreasonable to think these things will not happen. People will cheat. That's not so huge a problem, though, as long as they still get punished. Then it is a lesson.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
the way I look at it, doing something I don't want won't help me, or the amount of help will be far outweighed by the fact that I didn't want you to do it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:the way I look at it, doing something I don't want won't help me, or the amount of help will be far outweighed by the fact that I didn't want you to do it.
My child doesn't want me to take her to the doctor. So, am I doing her a favor if I just let her stay home and stay sick? Should I acquiesce to her wishes because any benefit of me taking her to the doctor is outweighed by the fact that she doesn't want me to take her?
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I think there is more than one definition of "favor" and people are using the word in different contexts so what you get is a battle of semantics.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
AC, I feel like you disregard the other person's best interests when you try to help them. Yea, ok, someone wants to committ suicide and yea, they'll be pissed if you try to stop them, but really, if they can get help, they will probably be happy that you didn't help them.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
I am not so sure for a young child but for me, as an adult, no matter how sick I am, it is my choice and mine alone whether or not to seek treatment
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
So if you were falling over with some disease and someone asked you if you wanted treatment and you said no, you would be mad if they called an ambulence to take you to the hospital?
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
absolutely
edit: if I wanted an ambulance to come I would have called it myself
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Look up the Baker Act. The government doesn't agree.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by AC: absolutely
edit: if I wanted an ambulance to come I would have called it myself
you have no phone.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
I would still be pissed, regardless of what the government thinks
newfoundlogic- I think that's how it started, but we moved past that with the poison question
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
"someone asked you if you wanted treatment and you said no"
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
AC, may I ask how old you are?
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
22
edit: I appreciate your courteous phrasing of that question
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Icarus, you're in the right, of course. You couldn't have been more clear or documented better than you did.
I recall once my biology teacher gave a short pop quiz and I got the carpal bones and tarsal bones reversed. I knew I was having trouble getting them straight and finally guessed... wrong. The girl behind me also guessed wrong. Nobody else guessed wrong. We both made a 60 just by missing that question and he reported us for cheating. He figured since we were the only two who missed the question, we must have cheated. I was sitting in front of her! I thought it got resolved because there was no punishment for me. But OTOH the other girl mysteriously wasn't in NHS that year. The teacher then decided to make this pop quiz worth 25% of our grade that semester. Considering everyone else made a 100 that made everyones' day. I had the highest grade in the class aside from that so I still did pretty well.
I think he did that to punish me the only way left open to him. Holy cow. I never put that together before. We speculated a lot on why that girl was not in NHS anymore
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
AC, I like the way you think. I wish you were President of the USA so I wouldn't have to go to school anymore. I don't like school, so who are my parents to tell me that school is good for me? I think most of the teenagers in this country wouldn't attend school if they weren't forced to.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Dang Theaca. That sucks. Makes you want to retroactively appeal, neh?
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
Darn uppity teachers, they think they make all the rules... Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Well, I have less warm fuzzy memories of him now than I did... it was his first year of teaching and his father was one of my favorite professors in college.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
In my civilian life, and in my military (reserve) life, I haven't used anything I learned from nonmilitary schools past 7th grade or so. At that time in my life, I would have attended school even if not forced because I believed it when I was told that this knowledge, or at least the skills developed in attaining that knowledge would be invaluable later on. So far that has not been borne out.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
When I was in middle school I had a few take home tests for Algebra. When she gave us the test it would be in an sealed envelope that she would stamp with her name along the flap. We were allowed to use books, notes, online resources, but no people. When we finished the test, we had to have a parent/guardian sign the bottom of the test as well as signing along the sealed flap of a new envelope that we sealed it in. That made it much harder (though obviously not impossible) to cheat. My mom trusted me enough that she would take my word for it that I hadn't discussed it with anyone or anything, so it would've been possible for me to call someone, ask for the answers, and then lie to my mom, but it really wouldn't have been worth it. For one thing, I could easily do the problems much quicker than it would've taken to get the answers from someone else, but I also knew that I would've been in huge trouble if I were caught cheating.
An example of a teacher having unrealistic expections, though, was my Spanish teacher freshman year of high school. We would have a quiz every friday on the material we'd learned during the week. During the quiz, he would hand out all of the homework and classwork from the week. Even if you weren't trying to cheat, you had to look at the papers to read the name so you would know whether to pass it back to someone behind you or hold on to it. It was very hard to not see at least a few random words or phrases, especially since the top of the paper (right under the name) generally had the grammar rules in big letters. (ie a<-->e) It's really difficult to remain honest and honorable when the teacher is handing the answers to you during the quiz and you know that the majority of the class was using that to their full advantage. I'm pretty sure that I was probably the only one in the room who didn't intentionally leave the homeworks face up every single time.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
Also, I agree with Icarus's position in regards to the incident that inspired this thread
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I had a student last semester who plagiarized his final paper. Copied about half of it (with slight re-wording) from an online study guide and a paper by a professor from Oxford. At the disciplinary hearing he claimed not to have known he was doing anything wrong, and said this was normal at his high school.
This from one of America's "best and brightest" young college students. He ended up with a year's suspension.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I really despise take home tests that have right and wrong answers. I think they punish the honest students. Students most definetly work together and compare answers. With grades becoming increasingly important to students and grade inflation making previously average grades unacceptable the pressure on students to cheat on take home exams is enormous. Even the parents who are suppose to be setting the good example are often applying the pressure to use any means necessary to achieve the goal.
In grad school, all of my tests were take home. I didn't mind them though because there were no right answers. I am a public speaking and political communication student and they were all essay exams. While we still would talk about general ideas there was no way to use people or the book to get a good grade if you didn't know the material and didn't have original ways to apply the information. I think these tests were fine and fair. The one class that I had that was quanitative in nature though had take homes and the entire class had get togethers to do them. I don't think anyone ever got one wrong. So either the professor was particularly dense or he expected the class would work together.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yeah, those dense people who expect honesty really suck.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Students in the HONOR society and in HONOR classes should not cheat. Period. You go Icarus!
No one should LOWER their expectations because of the decline in ethics in our society. Kids should still be expected to rise to our expectations. We just shouldn't be surprised that fewer and fewer of them are not meeting our very reasonable, justified expectations that they be good citizens. Neh?
Another teacher point of view: I know they cheat on homework but I tell them the consequences for doing so and I stress that they are only hurting themselves by not actually doing the work. I teach language arts so it is a little harder to copy though. When I catch students cheating on work from another class (happens often in math), I march them down to the math teacher who throws their work in the trash. It is very effective. On another note, I throw kids' work in the trash if they don't put their name on it!
AC, it is sad that those schools you say taught you nothing, didn't get around to teaching you character education. Maybe they did but you were too busy cheating.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I had a student last semester who plagiarized his final paper. Copied about half of it (with slight re-wording) from an online study guide and a paper by a professor from Oxford. At the disciplinary hearing he claimed not to have known he was doing anything wrong, and said this was normal at his high school.
This from one of America's "best and brightest" young college students. He ended up with a year's suspension.
Party of my university's plagiarism code addresses the unintentional part. I don't personally know anyone who's gotten caught and used that excuse, or anyone who's plagiarized in general, so I don't know what would happen here.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well see I go back to my thing about having to be very definitive about the definitions of cheating and helping. I recall in my senior year that I was helping many with Calculus homework. I never once showed someone my paper and let them copy answers. I did sit with them and tried to explain concepts to them (things like integration and the like). According to myself, I wasn't cheating in any way. I was offering assistance, perhaps even tutoring if you will (at no cost even), to someone who asked for my help. According to my school's policy though, I was cheating and should be failed. I think distinctions need to be made.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
AC, I was in the Canadian military as a W TechL. Well in the military I learned many things that I didn't know. However I also used knowledge from high school and other schooling I have had. Not all military jobs call for the same knowledge base and just because you haven't used your book learning doesn't mean you haven't used other skills you picked up in high school.
*looks like MandyM beat me to it Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Mandy, your last paragraph very nicely put what I was unsuccessfully attempting trying to think of a polite way to say. Thanks.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I'm actually of two minds about this. Yes, cheating is wrong. It's particulary wrong in this case when the students agreed to not copy answers from each other.
On the other hand, most of the classes that I've ever taken,and particularly the maths (because I suck at math), I've worked with other people whenever possible. Not to cheat, but to work with them to check my answers, and so we could learn from each other. But of course, if the instructor wanted me to do something by myself, I would. Take home quizzes aren't that rare.
I guess the point I'd like to make is that it seems to me that not working together outside of class for a lot of students is the exception, rather than the rule, and that some, maybe a lot of students, don't see the utility of doing things alone. So, while it's not understandable that the students cheated when they said they wouldn't, there may be a little more to it than that they have no sense of honor.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I guess that came out wrong. I actually really like the prof and am sure that he knew people worked together on the test. I guess at the point that everyone has the same answers to every question it becomes pretty obvious and either he was happy that we worked the answers even if it did take 10 people or he just didn't care to put forth the effort to design a test that people wouldn't cheat on. I think it is a bit naive to expect that people don't compare answers on a take home test. There is little risk to doing so and a large consequence to not doing so.
I taught a basic speech class and I can't imagine that I could have given a take home test that people wouldn't have cheated on. So, I gave homework and if they chose just to copy they would pay the price later when they took the test in the classroom but I certainly would have expected copying if everything was take home.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I took a look at CalTech's honor system. If only society in general could be like that. I would also be ecstatic if my school adopted it. It sounds like a great system to live under.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I guess I'm naive. I took dozens of take home tests as an undergrad, and it never occurred to me to compare answers before handing them in. This wasn't unique - lots of us would photocopy our tests before handing it in and talk about it after.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Rivka, I thought you were very clear. But maybe since cheating is OK, politeness is too subtle and easily misunderstood. You know what I mean? Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
And let me point out that there is certainly a difference between COPYING (which is cheating) and EXPLAINING. Explaining actually helps someone understand. Copying lets them get away with not understanding.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I guess I'm naive. I took dozens of take home tests as an undergrad, and it never occurred to me to compare answers before handing them in. This wasn't unique - lots of us would photocopy our tests before handing it in and talk about it after.
If you're naive, then I'm just as naive as you are. It boggles me that people would think of doing stuff like that, but I'm a rule follower in general.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
The part that is naive is thinking that in a class of 35 students NONE of them will copy. I would expect some, perhaps even most wouldn't. But I would certainly predict that some would
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I understand that there's a difference between the two, and that was my argument. Some schools (at least the ones in my area) seem to be saying that it's all one in the same. If they see two people looking at a piece of homework during school hours, it can be written up as cheating, whether or not there is any copying going on or not. It's just too much suspicion. As I said in my first post on the topic, the cheaters are getting those of us who don't cheat in trouble. Cheating is so rampant that the restrictions in place to stop are hindering and hurting people who have honor and integrity.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I think that if you want to cheat, you should not do it in another teacher's classroom. That's just stupid.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I knew of a situation at my medical school in Galveston that involved cheating. It was discussed openly in our ethics class as part of the education. There was a set of twins in the medical school about three years ahead of me. They had to write this paper on ethics for the ethics class. One twin typed out the paper. The other photocopied it and turned the poorer copy in for his own paper. Talk about ironic. They got expelled but their father was apparently a very rich and famous surgeon and he hired a very good lawyer and they went all the way to the top fighting it. Finally the school gave in and put the twins back in medical school. They both went into lucrative surgical residencies and are probably quite rich now. So cheating and being rich does work out sometimes.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
theresa, feel free to explore this tangent, but be aware that this was not the question I asked. I didn't ask whether it was naive to think that nobody would cheat, or unrealistic to expect it. I was actually quite specific.
I asked if it was unreasonable to demand that students have honor.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I was actually pretty shocked how much cheating (or at least, how much complaining the professors do about it) goes on in college. Maybe my high school classmates were just better at hiding it?
It really frightens me that people who cheat because they can't be bothered to do basic physics will be the ones building bridges and designing defibrillators someday. Cheating doesn't harm you--it harms everyone who trusts that your grades are a reasonably accurate reflection of what you know. And it can hurt your classmates. If there's a curve, those who don't cheat may be at a disadvantage. If you work in a group, you can harm the grades of your fellow group members if you all get caught cheating.
Cheating hurts everyone. Don't cheat, don't help other people cheat.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
The answer is no; it is completely reasonable.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Sorry if I went off on a tangent, Icarus. I'd agree that it's not unreasonable to demand that students have honor. I'd expect most students to have honor.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Ic, my computer math teacher in junior high encouraged cheating. He said life wasn't fair. He left all his tests and homework problems the same. People borrowed their older brothers' and sisters' answers. They sat together in groups to answer problems. They had answers hidden in desks during tests. When other kids complained he told them that was the way life worked. The teacher literally seemed happy to see them proving him right. "Life isn't fair."
Turns out his wife was having an affair with the mother of someone in my class.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I have a question. People have been emphasizing the fact that it was an honors class. Now, does that mean that just because someone can do math better than other students they are expected to have more honor than those students in lower level classes? Honor should be expected of all students, regardless of the level of class, no more honor should be expected of a student in a higher level class than in a lower level class. "Honors" is just a term to differentiate how hard the class will be.
National Honor Society is different. I was just talking to a housemate about this and he said that most of the kids in his school who applied lied on their applications. The day they were due, they were running around the halls asking people to sign off on community service that they didn't really do.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Woh, WillB -- your first post on this thread was prettily worded. I like that image!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: Rivka, I thought you were very clear. But maybe since cheating is OK, politeness is too subtle and easily misunderstood. You know what I mean?
Mandy, totally. Although I wasn't referring to anything I posted, but some of the truly snarky stuff I didn't post. Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: National Honor Society is different. I was just talking to a housemate about this and he said that most of the kids in his school who applied lied on their applications. The day they were due, they were running around the halls asking people to sign off on community service that they didn't really do.
This happens all the time. I got rejected by NHS the first time I applied because I only had a few things on my list (since it was all totally honest). A few people I know though had people sign off on stuff they didn't do (one guy's mother was on the PTA and signed that he worked every weekend for them when he really didn't), and they all got in. So yeah, I think there's not as much honor in the National Honor Society as there should be. It's frustrating to people like me who get rejected because others lie on their application.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Yea, I got rejected the first time I applied as well, due to lack of community service. This other guy got kicked out due to drunk driving.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I got rejected the first time for "lack of leadership", even though I was the treasurer for a club. The next year I applied without much change to my application (I think I added 3 more hours of community service, but it wasn't much of a difference) and I got in. So yeah, I definitely blame the cheaters there for keeping me out the first year.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
LOL rivka! I thought my post WAS snarky. Pardon me while I steal your lovely word!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You're was just a little snarky. A bit on top for flavor, you know. The variations I was coming up with were WAY snarkier.
And it's not my word. We use it around her a lot. It is a great word, neh?
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
And to answer your question kojabu, I think it is more of a responisbility issue than an honor issue really. I expect my honors students to be more responsible. They are certainly prone to mistakes just like my regular classes but they should be the ones trying harder in class, not the ones skating by by cheating. You know?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It isn't that others aren't expected to have honor, it is that if you attach yourself to a group that bargs about honor, and has that word in it's title, then the hypocracy hit a little harder...
It makes it an even more irritating issue.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Love it! It will be my journal word of the day tomorrow!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: And to answer your question kojabu, I think it is more of a responisbility issue than an honor issue really. I expect my honors students to be more responsible. They are certainly prone to mistakes just like my regular classes but they should be the ones trying harder in class, not the ones skating by by cheating. You know?
Yea, but I still think that regardless of the skill level, it should still be expected of the student. Why shouldn't students in modified classes be the ones trying harder so that they can learn the material and maybe move up a level?
I think it really just comes down to no one should cheat, eh?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
The idea that working with others on homework assignments is considered cheating in some places boggles my mind. Tests and quizes I understand, because they're in place as a measure of how much you've learned. Homework, on the other hand, exists in order to teach you what you need to learn. I don't know about anyone else, but personally I learn a lot more if I do a math problem wrong, check it with a friend, figure out why, and redo it correctly than I do when I do it wrong and get a big red mark. Honestly the only reason I could think of for that not to be allowed is if the school is trying to hinder your ability to learn as much as possible.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
In comparison to children, adults are no less capable of wanting things that are bad for them. They may have a right to do what they want, but that does not mean you are really helping them when you assist in the fulfillment of mistaken desires.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
blacwolve, there's a huge difference between working with a friend on homework (or checking your already-done homework against a friend's) and just copying their work. Neh?
As I tell my students, I see nothing wrong with the first, but have a real problem with the second.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
It is also VERY important that the teacher makes clear whether copying or sharing work is allowed on an assignment. I specifically recall professors in college who left the question ambiguous, and thus left me in the tricky situation of having to guess whether it would be wrong to share on a given assignment or whether I'd be putting myself at an unfair disadvantage if I didn't. I've taken tests in the past where collaboration was allowed, so it really should be spelled out for take-home tests if it is not... especially for younger students.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I find myself, inexplicably, in total agreement with Tres.
If a student makes the choice to turn in work that is not theirs, then they must live with the consequences of that choice.
It is entirely reasonable to expect students to be honorable. It is entirely reasonable to expect students not to cheat, nor to share answers, nor to perform any of the myriad actions that would count as intellectual dishonesty.
It is also entirely reasonable for every adult to live their lives according to the laws written by the government.
Will all live up to expectations? No. But those that fall short must face the consequences of their actions.
***
On an other point, helping someone to cheat does not do them a favor in the long run. In the short term, that student may well get a higher grade. That higher grade may even lead to something like NHS.
However, in giving another person your work to pass off as their own, in allowing them to receive credit when there was no learning or understanding, you have set that person back.
As a teacher, I could do my students a *favor* and give them all A's for all their work, no matter what the quality. They would be happy, I'm sure, but did I do them any favor by setting them an entire year behind their peers in math?
Is it a favor to rob them of the knowledge that would give them a competitive advantage later in life, to essentially handicap them so that they have to work harder later to fill in the gaps they left along teh way?
Cheating focuses on the grade, not on the understanding. It is a result of students whose priorities are skewed (or the priorities of their parents). Encouraging or aiding the behavior just causes more damage.
Rather than saying you're giving someone poison, it's more like lending cigarettes or a light. Sure, it's harmless, and it's what the person wants - and if you don't give it to them, they'll just find someone else to do it, possibly thinking less of you in the bargain.
But you did them no favor.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:As a teacher, I could do my students a *favor* and give them all A's for all their work, no matter what the quality. They would be happy, I'm sure, but did I do them any favor by setting them an entire year behind their peers in math?
I think your whole post was well put, but this, in particular resonated with me. I think it showed the intellectual immaturity of considering this a favor, because seeing it that way suggests that teachers who give all A's are the ones being nice, and so it reveals a tendency to see teachers as adversarial when they are actually trying to help students.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*nod*
Although I stand by my poison analogy. Perhaps very slow-acting poison . . . Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:seeing it that way suggests that teachers who give all A's are the ones being nice
Teachers who do this are trying to be nice, in much the same way that Solar was trying to do a favor. Unfortunately, as we both know, they are doing great harm, and little good beyond a simple, short-lived, artificial ego boost.
Grades are not gifts, nor are they rewards or punishments. They are the result of hard work, or lack thereof. If a student cheats, they did not work, and so they should receive no credit. Or, contrarily, they did no work you can be sure was their own, so you cannot assign credit. It's very simple.
Students who ask "why did you give me a D" are met with "I gave you nothing. You earned a D because of..."
It's why I put the word "favor" in asterisks, to call attention to the word being used improperly. It was meant to show the intellectual immaturity of considering that act a favor.
I guess that didn't come off as well as I'd thought.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I got rejected by NHS the first time I applied because I only had a few things on my list (since it was all totally honest).
That's wierd. At my school, everybody who met the GPA criteria and went through the application process (an essay, resume, and some reccomendations) got in. To stay in, you had to complete service hours etc. I don't know understand why a school would try to make the process even more selective than the national criteria states. It seems like it would just hurt the students.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I abhor copying someone else's work, and think it's practically a sin to plagiarize. I love writing papers, which many people find weird, but it's my favorite part of college. I have never copied someone else's paper, mostly because of two reasons: 1. I love writing my own. 2. I don't think any of the other students write as well as I do, so why copy substandard work?
Mostly, though, I say that in reference to my own actions. I would never copy someone else's work, and I don't ever remember letting someone copy my own. But, being honest, I did used to write papers for my brother's history and english classes. I knew he was extremely smart, just wasn't a great writer, so I did it for him. I stopped about a year ago though, when I realized he was turning 24, and he really should know the difference between "there" and "their" and that kind of thing. So I told him to write his own, but that I would gladly edit them for him. He's a much better writer now.
I learned my lesson. Cheating doesn't really help anyone. It's a crutch, and eventually, whoever is using it will have to function without it. If you are denying them to chance to learn what they need to know to walk, you really are doing them a disservice.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
As far as NHS goes, it was stupid at my high school. You had to have a certain GPA to get in, and then you were supposed to take certain honors classes and complete community service. But most everyone BSed that, and just used it to look good on their college applications. It was disgraceful.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
I would rather take home an F than cheat. Plain and simple. In junior high and high school, cheating of various levels was rampant. Even among the smart kids and the "good" kids. It repulsed me.
Icarus, what you did sounds very much like the honor system at my school (U of Michigan College of Engineering). During exams, the proctor hands out the tests, explains the rules, and then sits outside the room to answer any questions that may come up. On our exams (and sometimes homework) we are required to write:
quote: I have neither given nor received unauthorized aid on this examination, nor have I concealed any violations of the Honor Code.
If you're curious, you can find our honor code here.
I feel there is more I should say. I have very strong views concerning honesty, cheating, and the like. I'm just not very good at expressing myself. So I'll just say this: Icarus, you are absolutely in the right. Honesty and integrity should not be graded on the curve.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Grades are not gifts, nor are they rewards or punishments. They are the result of hard work, or lack thereof. If a student cheats, they did not work, and so they should receive no credit. Or, contrarily, they did no work you can be sure was their own, so you cannot assign credit. It's very simple.
Students who ask "why did you give me a D" are met with "I gave you nothing. You earned a D because of..."
*nods vigorously* I answer similarly when a student thanks me for their grade. I tell them that I'm proud of them, but there's nothing to thank me for -- they earned it. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Miro, cool! That's the first time I've seen a university honor code that's currently in use and has been around longer than Caltech's.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I have two friends in the U of M College of Engineering. I wonder if you know them Miro.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Probably not. It's a big place. What years are they?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well actually one is an incoming Freshman, which I think would make it impossible for you to know her. But the other is a Sophmore. Don't suppose you're in the marching band?
I'm still a little unused to the bigness of schools, Oakland University (where I go) isn't tiny, but neither is it as large as MSU or UM.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
I'm also a sophmore, so it's a possibility, but I'm definitely not in the marching band.
BTW, if you want, you can give my email to your friend who's a freshman. Just in case she has any questions, needs help, etc. It's in my profile.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: AC, your attitude sickens and saddens me.
Beren, shoulda gone to Caltech. They really take the honor code seriously there. And it's not enforced by staff or faculty.
It's enforced by a board of students.
Caltech's honor system is very idealistic.
I'm not sure if the lack of cheating Caltech is due to the high moral caliber of the students or under reporting of cheating by the students.
quote:The vast majority of quizzes and midterm or final examinations are take-home. Stapled-shut tests are picked up in class or at a professor's office. Printed instructions on the cover of the test specify the conditions under which it must be taken, including the time limit, reference materials allowed, and the due date.
If a student working at home gave himself an extra hour or two, who the heck is going to report him?
Caltech's honor code is still not as strict as I would like.
quote:For example, if a defendant has copied one isolated problem on an exam, the Board may decide to nullify the advantage by giving zero credit on that problem. However, if the copied problem allows the student to answer other questions or verify previous results, it is possible that credit will be removed for those problems as well.
Shouldn't the student get a zero on the entire exam?
Based on the example given in the honor code, the worst punishment a first-time offender can get is forced suspension and not expulsion.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:As a teacher, I could do my students a *favor* and give them all A's for all their work, no matter what the quality. They would be happy, I'm sure, but did I do them any favor by setting them an entire year behind their peers in math?
This is slightly off topic, but I've noticed that throughout my education, tough grading hasn't really corresponded with me learning more in a class, or other students learning more. It is as if the danger of receiving a poor grade is not strongly related to how much I learn in a class. So, I'm not sure it is certain that giving all A's really would put students behind.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
My view is similar to Storm's. I certainly don't condone cheating, but I also think openly collaborative work should be a lot more common than it is. In university, my friends and I certainly collaborated on plenty of assignments -- there were numerous occasions where we would gather in someone's living room with some tasty drinks and settle down to work on our assignments. If someone had a question they'd pipe up and another person would come over and help them out with an explanation or tip or whatever. "How'd you do this?" "Oh, I did it this way." "Huh, I did it this other way." By the time everyone was done the assignment we'd all be good and drunk, so depending on the day of the week we'd either head out to a pub or go home to our beds.
I get the impression that a lot of people in this thread would consider that cheating, even though there was no stipulation against outside help or collaboration attached to the assignments. And yet, out here in the real world, everything is done collaboratively. I can't escape the endless meetings, and sometimes I yearn for the ability to put my foot down in a meeting and say "this is how it's going to be." But far from being prevented, soliciting the input and aid of others is actually a requirement. I can't get a project through without six or eight other signatures on it, which means I'm forced to discuss my work with others on a regular basis. Most of the time, I view this as a positive thing.
Assignments were designed to help us understand the concepts discussed in class. They weren't there for us to beat our heads against and bemoan that we couldn't get 100% on all of them; they were hardly worth any marks (often no marks at all, but they had to be handed in). The decidedly noncollaborative midterm and final exams were usually the sole source of grades (with a typical 30-70 or 40-60 split).
I also disagree with the notion that grades are earned. Particularly in high school, in a lot of cases (my own, for instance), they are not -- and, indeed, there were numerous times when genuinely applying myself resulted in lower grades than just coasting. Even in university I found that effort beyond a certain minimum had no particular correlation to results for me. It's one of the reasons I think grades aren't a very useful concept and the present overemphasis on them in Western schooling is a serious problem. When you hand out an assignment and the students' first question is "how much is this worth?" something is seriously wrong. School is about learning, not marks, and that seems to have gotten lost somewhere along the way.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Icarus, Haverford College (my wife's alma mater) has a very strong honor code. It is also a top 5 liberal arts college, I believe. They were allowed to grab a final, and take it, unproctored, wherever they liked. Even exams that weren't open book!
My alma mater, in certain engineering programs, has a different way to deal wit htrusting fellow students... There are people who actually try and wreck lab experiments to hurt your grade (and improve the curve for them). They even have a name for it: throats. As in cutthroats.
-Bok
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Cheaters should be crucified. And, what do you know, as soon as you come out of high school - they are. Plagiarising is taken extremely seriously at college.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
twinky, I agree completely with you. It's funny, for a society that places so much on cooperation and working together, actually cooperating and working together are too often looked down upon. Obviously there are times when working together at school is a no-no (like, on a big exam, where you are supposed to alread know the answers - I've had a number of take home exams where we were told to work in threes or fours).
In high school, I used to meet a friend of mine at a bookstore every week. He was nuts when it came to math, knew more than the teachers most of the time. He'd help me on my math and physics homework every week (I wouldn't just copy his work, by the way). At my school, for the math class anyway, with would have been considered cheating. The teacher specifically said, "if you have problems, only come to me - do not get help from other students." My morals told me that I would not be doing anything wrong by getting outside help.
As for the initial topic, I'll mirror everyone else in saying, you did nothing wrong, which I'm sure you already knew.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: That's wierd. At my school, everybody who met the GPA criteria and went through the application process (an essay, resume, and some reccomendations) got in. To stay in, you had to complete service hours etc. I don't know understand why a school would try to make the process even more selective than the national criteria states. It seems like it would just hurt the students.
The way it worked at our school was you had to have a certain GPA even to apply (although I believe it was only a 3.0, so it wasn't horribly high). Then you had to do the application, listing all your classes, all extracurricular stuff, etc. Then from those applications, they selected so many per grade (more from the sophomores, fewer from the juniors and seniors). So basically, if you embellished your application a lot (like many people I know did), you were more likely to get in on your first try. Those of us who didn't embellish sort of lost out for the most part. I mean some made it through, mainly because I called them super workaholics (super high GPA + tons and tons of extracurricular stuff). A lot of the ones that did get through the first time though just had a lot of made up stuff on their applications.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I get the impression that a lot of people in this thread would consider that cheating, even though there was no stipulation against outside help or collaboration attached to the assignments.
I'm not sure anyone who posted here would think that was cheating. Certainly no one has said as much.
The specific situation had a very clear no outside help stipulation and the student was not collaborating but copying. My comments were all directed at this specific situation, except for the side conversation started by someone allowing copying of homework.
It seems most people jumping on the homework "helpers" have made the distinction between copying and collaboration at least once.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
A few thoughts on the subject:
First, the difficulty with cheating in school is due, in large measure I think, to the clear artificiality of the environment. What I mean by that is that school does not necessarily follow the practical constraints required by "the law of the harvest". To illustrate: If a farmer played hookey all spring and summer, worked 18 hour days through the fall to make up, would he have a harvest at the end of fall?
However, such a scenario is perfectly acceptable in school. American schools inherit their philosophy from the 1800's when public school almost delighted in boring students to tears and then punished the ones who couldn't pay attention long enough. "Learning" meant reciting a litany of memorized "facts" at the drop of a hat. Schools today are usually far different from those dry beginnings, but much of the same philosophical difficulties remain to be overcome, not the least of which is the artificiality which has perpetuated itself into industry as well.
Here is what I mean: A college degree has become a sort of litmus test for competency, even if it has practically no bearing on how well you can do your job. Colleges have become the industry way of outsourcing the first level of human resources- identifying competent potential candidates. The direct result of this approach is that college becomes less about what and how well you learn than it is about completing the required material and getting the piece of paper. Colleges are enablers of this mentality in many ways, such as adhering strictly to a set of requirements even if those requirements may be shown to be absolutely absurd. As a brief illustration, my brother has recently been battling for the right to graduatedespite missing a class which was added to the curriculum after he was well into his program. This class is a library orientation class- it is meant to get new students familiar with the library resources available. The absurdity of requiring my brother to attend another semester in order to take this class when it is clearly irrelevant should be obvious to any but the most dogmatic bureaucrat, but such are those he is made to deal with.
Another clear sign of this trend is in the way homework is assigned. Everyone has received "busywork"- mindless exercises meant to assign homework for homework's sake rather than to learn a concept. This is problematic because clearly what is "busywork" to one might be useful to another, but egregious offenses in this area have likely been experienced by all.
Essentially what it all boils down to is this: in our semi-meritocratic society it is clear that education (or at least the illusion of it) is key to financial success. Therefore the problem of cheating is endemic to the purpose of the system. The rats are all running the maze in order to get the cheese at the end, not because they enjoy running the maze.
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
I'm getting the feeling that my fellows are different from your average student. If they need to copy answers it's because they forgot to do something and don't have the time to do it themselves. Even then, the only time I can remember this happening last year it was with a friend in physics and he purposely threw a couple of answers: he just needed to get a pass on it to keep passing the subject (he gave up football for it, so it's not like he wasn't trying).
Giving answers just really almost never comes up. Helping, sharing, bouncing ideas off of each other - those are common place, even on take home quizzes because when I get into the real world I'm going to use every means possible to succeed. And my school stresses that it's an extention of the real world.
Like Storm Saxon said, it's a lot better in my mind than receiving a giant x.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:This is slightly off topic, but I've noticed that throughout my education, tough grading hasn't really corresponded with me learning more in a class, or other students learning more. It is as if the danger of receiving a poor grade is not strongly related to how much I learn in a class. So, I'm not sure it is certain that giving all A's really would put students behind.
You're right, Tres, for the majority of students, I would say. In fact, I hate grading, and would rather I did not have to do it - instead just teaching the material and trying to get every student to understand it.
I had an honors seminar in college where the teacher started class with: "Syllabi are death. There will be no syllabus in this course. There will be no tests, quizzes, papers, or evaluations of any kind. You will all be receiving A's. Now that that's out of the way, we can get down to the actual learning." It was wonderful, and we all learned a lot.
Of course, it was an honors seminar to begin with.
The majority of students don't need grades to motivate them, I don't think, if they are properly motivated otherwise. However, those at the very top and those at the very bottom have a different relationship with grades.
The very top students see it as competition and status, and a B+ is crushing. The cry of "Why did you give me a B+? Can't you just give me an A?" echoed off the walls of my High Honors Algebra more than once. But, I tell them, that is what they earned - and, you can be damn sure the next marking period that had stepped it up, and worked a lot harder.
The very bottom students often don't care about grades so long as they pass. A D- is A-OK in their book, so long as they don't have to repeat. So there's a benchmark of another kind for them - did they do enough work to earn a passing grade, or did they skip so much and learn so little that it would benefit them to retake the course.
Grades are also important for placement. A student may earn a C+ grade for solid, but not exceptional work. That student would then move into a middle level math course the following year in high school. If the student had been *given* (note that this is not what they earned) an A for the same work, it is no favor - because they will be placed in a class above their level the following year that might very easily frustrate or totally lose their interest.
On another note, the higher you set expectations, they more students will strive to achieve. If you make it a lot harder to achieve an A, the A students will work harder to earn one. They won't be satisfied with anything less. If you make it a lot harder to achieve a passing grade, the D- students will work harder to earn one. Passing is the important thing to them.
So, a tougher grading policy (provided it's not so difficult as to be out of reach for the students) does improve student effort and learning, for most students.
Of course, there are students (like myself when I was in school) for whom grades don't matter at all. I would learn based on how well my teacher taught, regardless of what my grades ended up being. A strict grader may have made me pay a little closer attention to detail, but in the long run I learned what I was going to learn.
So, yes, Tres, grades do not determine student learning, but when all students are given the same grade regardless of effort, effort will likely go down across the board.
[ August 26, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: FlyingCow ]
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Jacare, I agree that this is the case in college, or at least that was my experience.
It was also the case throughout much of my own experience in high school, with some truly standout teachers who deviated from the mold.
However, most teachers in the public schools have broken away from this pattern of "chalk and talk" or "drill and kill" as we've come to affectionately call it. Instruction has become more cooperative and group based, with hands on activities and real world application from an early stage. The focus has shifted from "learn it to know it" to "learn it and apply it."
Even assessment has become more focused on process and understanding, rather than correctly memorized answers. In math education, this has placed a far higher importance on literacy, as students need to read, break down, understand, and create methods to solve situational word problems. The methods used are graded with equal weight to the final answer.
The system is slowly changing, and teachers are being taught now that all students do not learn in the same way, or have the same educational needs. It's starting from the lowest grades and working its way upward.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
quote: It's why I put the word "favor" in asterisks, to call attention to the word being used improperly. It was meant to show the intellectual immaturity of considering that act a favor.
I guess that didn't come off as well as I'd thought.
I'm not sure why you think you wee misunderstood. I believe rivka and I were agreeing with you.
-o-
I didn't get what you did from Storm's posts, LSM. Perhaps I misread. In any case, I personally find your response disappointing It suggests that in your career, monetary success will be more important to you than morality. I hope you are never my engineer, doctor, accountant, or waiter.
-o-
I would be interested in correlating age with attitude on cheating.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Icarus, of course it's not unreasonable to expect honour, from both the students and the parents. I think what the parents are doing is reprehensible.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
This discussion is vastly interesting because I'll be teaching a class as part of my TA for the first time this year. And shame on me, I don't exactly what my school's honor code position is...I must look that up before classes start.
I'm curious, though, do we have any Montessori-educated people among us? I wasn't myself, but from what I understand, they don't use a grading system the way the rest of us do. It'd be interesting to hear a Montessori perspective on cheating.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: The way it worked at our school was you had to have a certain GPA even to apply (although I believe it was only a 3.0, so it wasn't horribly high).
Maybe this is where the difference lies. I think our GPA cut off was at 3.8 or 3.9.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: Maybe this is where the difference lies. I think our GPA cut off was at 3.8 or 3.9. [/QB]
Sheesh, there was maybe one person in my high school who had a 3.8 overall GPA.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Miro, cool! [Smile] That's the first time I've seen a university honor code that's currently in use and has been around longer than Caltech's.
UVA's has been around since 1842 and has always been student-enforced.
And there's only one sanction: expulsion.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: Maybe this is where the difference lies. I think our GPA cut off was at 3.8 or 3.9.
If ours were like that, we might have cut out a good deal of the dishonorable people. In fact, it probably would have limited NHS to the top 50 to 60 people in our grade. That would have been nice though.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: Sheesh, there was maybe one person in my high school who had a 3.8 overall GPA.
Yeah, I went to a pretty competitive school. Several people went Ivy League. I had above a 4.0 GPA and I wasn't even in the top ten. But to be fair, you could get a 4.3 in a class if it was AP and you made a 100. 4.1 for 94-96, and 3.9 for 90-93. (versus non AP which went 4.0 for 97-100, 3.8 for 94-96, and 3.6 for 90-93). So that might have inflated it somewhat, but probably not much since AP classes were pretty hard.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
See, that shouldn't be possible. It should be weighted. Our school worked on a 5.0 scale and had bonus for honors/AP classes. So if you got a 100 in a level class, you'd get a 5.0. A 100 in an honors/AP class would get you a 6.0 (although the chance of getting a 100 in an AP class was next to nothing). So our class rank was determined by that. I forget exactly what I had, but it was above a 5.0. For NHS (and for colleges though) that was changed to an unweighted/normal GPA form. My above-5.0 changed into about a 3.96 I think. So I mean I was still high, but not a perfect 4.0.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: However, probably the scariest to me is the apparent lack of a moral compass by the youth. But what can we expect? As a society, we have seen the trend to delegitimize anything resembling a moral authority. Religion, private organizations (BSA comes to mind), and anything that may be seen as a moral authority has been marginalized. Instead of standards being based on something solid, they are now placed in the ever-shifting realm of public opinion. The really scary question is what happens when this generation becomes power that leads this country? Since stealing from the rich to give to the poor is accepted as right because the result of helping the poor is good, then its difficult to argue with someone who wishes to cheat their way into a position where they can rob the rich and give to the poor.
Oh, the urge to be snarky, she is strong.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:And there's only one sanction: expulsion.
That's what I like to hear.
Given that you cannot catch all cheaters, you have to make an example out of the ones you do catch.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The other problem you mentioned, underreporting, still exists, though. And they're thinking of changing the single sanction because they think having only one severe penalty discourages reporting. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote: I'm curious, though, do we have any Montessori-educated people among us? I wasn't myself, but from what I understand, they don't use a grading system the way the rest of us do. It'd be interesting to hear a Montessori perspective on cheating.
From my perspective as a homeschooler who does not use grades, I think that's beside the point in this case. The point is that Ic had his students sign an honour statement, and these girls both (IMO) broke that. That is dishonourable.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: Yeah, I went to a pretty competitive school. Several people went Ivy League. I had above a 4.0 GPA and I wasn't even in the top ten. But to be fair, you could get a 4.3 in a class if it was AP and you made a 100. 4.1 for 94-96, and 3.9 for 90-93. (versus non AP which went 4.0 for 97-100, 3.8 for 94-96, and 3.6 for 90-93). So that might have inflated it somewhat, but probably not much since AP classes were pretty hard.
At my school a 4.0 was the highest you could get, regardless of what specific class you were taking. Also, the honours level classes were only given "honours-level" if you received an A in them.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: For NHS (and for colleges though) that was changed to an unweighted/normal GPA form. My above-5.0 changed into about a 3.96 I think. So I mean I was still high, but not a perfect 4.0.
Now that I think about it, the GPAs could well have been recalculated for NHS. In fact, I think they were because a friend was upset that her GPA was high enough before they unweighted it, but not after. For colleges they weren't recalculated though. Most colleges just asked for class rank and size, and if they did ask for GPA they also asked how the school's scale worked. At least at the schools I applied to.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Ah. I think as far as colleges, I was asked for weighted GPA (with what scale it was on), unweighted GPA, and class rank/class size. Not that it mattered anyways. I was top 10%, so any of the places I applied to had to accept me.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
quote: However, most teachers in the public schools have broken away from this pattern of "chalk and talk" or "drill and kill" as we've come to affectionately call it. Instruction has become more cooperative and group based, with hands on activities and real world application from an early stage. The focus has shifted from "learn it to know it" to "learn it and apply it."
FC- this is good to hear, and I think I have seen a bit of this as well. However, there is also the danger of the perhaps equally bad "New curriculum every year". It seems to me that in some places, at least, every new administrator with the power to do so completely revamps the entire curriculum so that no good idea is ever maintained.
Again, this is obviously anecdotal and likely not indicative of education on a broader level.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
There are so many problems with class ranking. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
IdahoEEBoy, I think you have some good points, but they are obscured by the irrelevent rant about liberalism. One could just as easily argue that it is a conservative viewpoint that leads to this moral decay, because it is the republicans who have been teaching for years that only the bottom line matters, and that means do not. In this case, the bottom line is the grade. And LSM's post about how only the result mattered certainly plays into this. One could argue that what we need is more of the liberal emphasis on fairness, instead of the conservative emphasis on selfishness. Of course, such an argument would be divisive and off topic, and that is why I am not forwarding it. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Icarus, I've been thinking about the incident you started this post with. Beyond just being appalled at these parents, I also have to wonder how their child got this far in life without learning this lesson. I wonder if there are a string of parent/teacher conferences in the past from which she emerged victorious.
I went to Parochial school through Grade 10. They handled this stuff pretty simply and fairly. They called the parents in and sent the kid home. Then, when everyone had had a day to think about it, you got called back in to discover whether or not you were going to get an "F" for the entire semester's class or just for that assignment.
I don't know anyone's parents who would've done anything but back up the school on this sort of thing. But then, I don't know anyone who cheated. We just didn't do it.
I remember going in to one test once and cheating. This was 3rd grade. I was so sick afterwards I never did it again. It was horrible.
But then, in Catholic school they teach you about guilt early on.
This whole episode is just sad.
And I hope your thread title is more of a rhetorical question than it sounds. Really, I just can't imagine that cheating has become the norm.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I worked at a Catholic school daycare. I caught one of the 5th graders copying another student's homework (without the other student's knowledge; she was the top student in the class, had finished her homework early, and was off playing with her friends.)
I caught flak from the other daycare assistants because I insisted on reporting it to the daycare director, principal, and the boy's teacher (leaving it up to them to notify the parents.) They were mad at me for making his life hard because "all the kids in this school do it, you can't punish him for doing what he sees the older kids doing." (The other assistants both had children enrolled in the upper grades of the school.) I told them that I would do the same if I saw any student doing what he had been doing, and I would think that if it was so widespread the principal ought to know that.
They ended up letting him off with a 0 for the assignment and a warning. But he cried and apologized and after the talk I gave him, I hope he understands that what he did was wrong. (I kind of doubt it, though, because if he sees everyone else cheating around him and adults looking the other way, he's going to learn that I'm just the one you don't want to get caught by.)
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:If they need to copy answers it's because they forgot to do something and don't have the time to do it themselves.
See, to me, these are the types of people who need to fail the assignment. Part of school is remembering what you have to do; if you forget, the onus is on you to do as much as you can, or take the grade you deserve. Your friend that copied deserved to fail that assignment.
Ic, I agree with what nearly everyone else in the thread has said. The parents are worse than useless. Stick to your guns! Perhaps you can give these girls a late start on understanding what honor actually is.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:See, to me, these are the types of people who need to fail the assignment. Part of school is remembering what you have to do; if you forget, the onus is on you to do as much as you can, or take the grade you deserve. Your friend that copied deserved to fail that assignment.
I agree totally!
The question isn't "well he would've gotten an A had he done the work, so he deserves at least a B..."
That's just ridiculous. The real world lesson is that if you don't do your work you don't get squat! You get fired. Or should get fired.
People don't look around at the end of the project and go, well, we should earn $1M for that because, had we actually completed it, it would've been great! Based on our past performance, this failure is really a rousing success.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
quote:Originally posted by romanylass:
quote: I'm curious, though, do we have any Montessori-educated people among us? I wasn't myself, but from what I understand, they don't use a grading system the way the rest of us do. It'd be interesting to hear a Montessori perspective on cheating.
From my perspective as a homeschooler who does not use grades, I think that's beside the point in this case. The point is that Ic had his students sign an honour statement, and these girls both (IMO) broke that. That is dishonourable.
Well, I guess I wasn't thinking specifically with regards to Icarus' situation with this question. I was really more curious as to whether cheating is an issue/concern when grades are not part of the education system. A bit of a tangent, but it might be relevant in a setting where students may have made a transition from Montessori/home-schooling into a more mainstream system, i.e. college or maybe high school.
I do agree that the kids in Icarus' case are definitely in the wrong, as are their parents - especially their parents!! How people can be that clueless is beyond me. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:UVA's has been around since 1842 and has always been student-enforced.
Interesting. I confess it's not something I've ever really looked into.
quote:The other problem you mentioned, underreporting, still exists, though. And they're thinking of changing the single sanction because they think having only one severe penalty discourages reporting.
As someone who is instrumental in discipline (both as a teacher and part of the administration), I would strongly suspect that it does. Moreover, I disagree with having only a single harsh penalty. I'm all for throwing the book at people who break the rules; but that shouldn't mean killing 'em with it.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
What Rivka said. Also, it's possible to plagiarize bits and pieces accidentally, so there ought to be lighter punishments for that sort of thing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Indeed.
*starts humming Lobachevsky*
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:As someone who is instrumental in discipline (both as a teacher and part of the administration), I would strongly suspect that it does.
Perhaps. I'm skeptical of how many students would report regardless.
quote:Moreover, I disagree with having only a single harsh penalty. I'm all for throwing the book at people who break the rules; but that shouldn't mean killing 'em with it.
At UVA, the official line is that if one can't conduct themselves in accordance with the principles of honor, then there is no place for that person in the community. There is a seriousness element: "Would open toleration of such an act impair the community of trust sufficiently enough to warrant permanent dismissal from the University?" Without this, the offense does not result in expulsion, and punishment is left to the teacher. It should be noted that academic fraud of any sort is pretty much always considered serious. But see the intent provision below.
quote:Also, it's possible to plagiarize bits and pieces accidentally, so there ought to be lighter punishments for that sort of thing.
There's an intent element, so accidentally plagiarizing wouldn't get you thrown out (assuming the facts can be established accurately). The professor is still free to fail the student for the project or the course.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Plagiarism gets my hackles up, so I would hope every school would take it seriously and punish offenders.
One question - my speech instructor warned us all not to use speeches posted on websites or available for a fee from the internet telling us that she had anti-plagiarism software and would check. Also, she warned that most of the speeches there weren't any good anyway.
I'm curious, though - what is anti-plagiarism software and how would it work?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thanks! That's neat.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
Some of the teachers here have a subscription to one of those anti-plagiarism sites, but I've always found it pretty easy to catch on my own. When I encounter a phrase that just doesn't sound like a particular student's style, I simply google it. I have caught several plagiarists that way.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I've never, ever had a teacher or professor say collaboration on a take-home assignment wasn't allowed. Why? Because it's just not practical. You can't get mad or be surprised when students work on take home material together - even when you told them they can't.
It's as if you left a briefcase full of money on a street corner. If it's taken, it is your own problem. No point in getting mad at anyone.
quote:I usually don't do this, because of the increased possibility of cheating, but I chose to because it was a precalculus quiz on graphing some fairly complicated functions, and I knew students would not be able to do it in anything like a reasonable amount of time in class.
And that's where your problem started. You confused a homework assignment with an exam. The two are not the same. There is no such thing as a "take home exam." There are in-class exams, and there is homework. The two just don't mix.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
^ What is wrong with our society.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It's as if you left a briefcase full of money on a street corner. If it's taken, it is your own problem. No point in getting mad at anyone.
No, it's as if you left a five-dollar bill on your desk in a room that only people you know very well have access to.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by romanylass:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm curious, though, do we have any Montessori-educated people among us? I wasn't myself, but from what I understand, they don't use a grading system the way the rest of us do. It'd be interesting to hear a Montessori perspective on cheating. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my perspective as a homeschooler who does not use grades, I think that's beside the point in this case. The point is that Ic had his students sign an honour statement, and these girls both (IMO) broke that. That is dishonourable. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I guess I wasn't thinking specifically with regards to Icarus' situation with this question. I was really more curious as to whether cheating is an issue/concern when grades are not part of the education system. A bit of a tangent, but it might be relevant in a setting where students may have made a transition from Montessori/home-schooling into a more mainstream system, i.e. college or maybe high school.
For us cheating is not an issue unless I am quizzing one of the kids on something ( usually spelling) where looking up the answer would not tell me if they had learned what they need to. But when they do transition into school, I wouldn't expect them to cheat any more that a kid who had been public schooled all their lives.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:It's as if you left a briefcase full of money on a street corner. If it's taken, it is your own problem. No point in getting mad at anyone.
No, it's as if you left a five-dollar bill on your desk in a room that only people you know very well have access to.
No, not at all. Your situation implies personal familiarity and trust. How many students does a teacher work with? It's absurd to expect the same level of trust from all of them.
It is better to just avoid this topic entirely. Only work that can be collaborated on should be taken home. Everything else should be done in the classroom.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Here's a story.
Last year my professor gave out a quiz that was questions on the understanding of the literatre we'd suppose to have read. I already had scanned the answers and knew about half the answers- not great but not unusual- I actually had the top fifth mark for quizzes in the class at the end of the year and I definately did not ace those quizzes!
Anyway. This professor (bit like Groucho Marx only very anti-Marxist ) leaves the room. A silence, then people begin to talk. "What's the answer to 1?", discussion takes place. I can scarcely avoid the answers, so I write some of them down if I hear them. If I was torn between two things, I wrote down the one I heard was right. If I had no idea, I left it blank.
I'm no angel. I would never volunteer and answer or begin to talk like that, but I'm no angel. I've never instigated cheating, or attempted to cheat in anyway, but if the answers are Right There, I'm going to take them. I'm going to shift and smile and know I'm a coward and a dishonest lout, but I'll take them.
Five minutes later, professor returns. Class is silent again, but I think he's pretty aware that there was talking going on. It's possible he waited outside the door, listening, for a while. Somebody volunteers the information that people were talking and he asks us very seriously in that horribly guilt-inducing manner if the quiz is really that hard. He insists on going through each question with us, discussing the answers.
I deliberately left the bonus questions blank on the test, even though they were easy and un-failable.
There were a lot of embaressed looks in that class. Heck, I felt embarrassed and I'd done hardly anything and not been the instigator or a comrade. I'd bet you that if the professor had left the room on the next quiz the majority of the class would have stayed silent.
It is reasonable to punish people for cheating. There should be consequences. However, at the same time, it is unreasonable to believe that, given the opportunity, somebody who is struggling in a class, who's cheated before, who just wants to get through, darnit! will not copy out the answers of a take home asssignment.
People should not cheat, but someone always will, sometime. They should be punished, but you should not be surprised. Humans can be infinately honorable, but they can also be infinately fallible, and it doesn't take much to send somebody, young or old, into that grey area.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: My view is similar to Storm's. I certainly don't condone cheating, but I also think openly collaborative work should be a lot more common than it is. In university, my friends and I certainly collaborated on plenty of assignments -- there were numerous occasions where we would gather in someone's living room with some tasty drinks and settle down to work on our assignments. If someone had a question they'd pipe up and another person would come over and help them out with an explanation or tip or whatever. "How'd you do this?" "Oh, I did it this way." "Huh, I did it this other way." By the time everyone was done the assignment we'd all be good and drunk, so depending on the day of the week we'd either head out to a pub or go home to our beds.
twinky, I think there is a big difference between the type of collaborative "learning together" that you are describing here and outright copying answers on homework or a quiz. I think the former is not cheating, because you are learning and coming up with the answers collaboratively. When a student copies answers from someone, that student learns nothing.
***
My favorite cheating story: My husband caught two kids cheating from each other on a test one time. He gave each of them half the grade for their correct answers. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:No, not at all. Your situation implies personal familiarity and trust. How many students does a teacher work with? It's absurd to expect the same level of trust from all of them.
It implies familiarity. Teachers are familiar with their students. Your analogy implies leaving something accessible to the entire world.
quote:It is better to just avoid this topic entirely. Only work that can be collaborated on should be taken home. Everything else should be done in the classroom.
No, it's not. There are a lot of benefits to take-home testing, not least of which is the ability to give tests without time pressure. That should not be taken away because some people are incapable of acting with decency and honor.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: And that's where your problem started. You confused a homework assignment with an exam. The two are not the same.
I asked for everyone's opinion on whether it was reasonable to demand honorable behavior. You have answered that you believe that it is not. Thank you for your opinion.
I did not, however, ask for your condescension, nor for pedagogical definitions, so keep them to yourself, jackass. I've been doing this job for over eleven years, at schools including some of the most prestigious in the country, with extremely effective results as measured by both standardized testing and performance in future classes. I have been personally sought after as a homeschool/on-tour teacher by Gloria Estefan and Pat Riley, based on how highly I was recommended by my school, by colleagues, and by former clients. I don't know what you think your qualifications are, but in any case, they are quite irrelevant. Nothing qualifies you to be so insulting to me.
[ August 28, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Goo Boy ]
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goo Boy:
quote:And that's where your problem started. You confused a homework assignment with an exam.
I asked for everyone's opinion on whether it was reasonable to demand honorable behavior. You have answered that you believe that it is not. Thank you for your opinion.
I did not, however, ask for your condescension, nor for pedagogical definitions, so keep them to yourself, jackass. I've been doing this job for over eleven years, at schools including some of the most prestigious in the country, with extremely effective results as measured by both standardized testing and performance in future classes. I have been personally sought after as a homeschool/on-tour teacher by Gloria Estefan and Pat Riley, based on how highly I was recommended by my school, by colleagues, and by former clients. I don't know what you think your qualifications are, but in any case, they are quite irrelevant. Nothing qualifies you to be so insulting to me.
Umm, maybe it's irrelevant, but for those of us in the dark, you might want to make it clear to whom you are responding, Icky...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
He was responding to Foust, who posted the passage Icky quoted.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
I was responding to the only person here who has insulted me. Sorry it was unclear. I have edited.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
I apologize if I misread your post, then. I agree that in general things like this often come down to parenting. Certainly is this specific instance the parents are reinforcing this cynicism (as well as an "ends justify the means" outlook).
I think the media have been very irresponsible in recent decades, but their irresponsibility wouldn't have as much inpact if we as a society and as parents collectively weren't complicit in it.
Everybody seems to run around wondering if we should blame parenting, society, or the media for the decline in our values; I wonder why we think we have to pick just one?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I question that there's been a decline at all, actually. I don't think that can be taken for granted.
quote:And we really don't have to imagine what it would do to that generation....just look around.
Interestingly, violent crime among American youth is currently at a "local miniumum." I don't think this generation is as bad as many people like to claim. Rather, I think people were always bad, but now because of the advent of mass media (including the internet) we are more likely to hear about the bad things people do.
I would have titled this topic without using the word "today's."
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
quote:I question that there's been a decline at all, actually. I don't think that can be taken for granted.
I don't think it can be taken for granted, but I'm starting to think that there has been. I used to feel axactly as you when I was younger (and that's not meant to be the least bit condescending, just a reflection of when I believed this.) People have always said the world is going to hell in a handbasket, and the world keeps not going to hell. But people do have the perspective to make the comparison at least during their own lifetimes. And to deny their claim is to assume that in each and every case, people are deceiving themselves about what morality was like at one stage of their lives and what it was like at another.
I can see ways in which w have gotten better as a society. In our love for exposing all things, we have exposed a lot of hypocrisy and worked to lessen it. Minorities are treated better now than they were fifty years ago (though perhaps not as well as they were ten or fifteen). I think that Political Correctness, for all that it gets maligned, has been a force for good more than not.
I think the decrease in violence can be attributed to how comfortable our lives have become. The juvenile delinquents of twenty years ago are all inside playing Grand Theft Auto instead of outside stealing real cars. But I don't think a decline in crime is indicative of an increase in morality.
It is clear to see that television, movies, video games, and magazines send us messages now regarding personal morality that were unthinkable a generation or two ago.
I'm rambling here, I know. I think it's because this is a complicated question. It may be that we have become more conscious of some things and less conscious of others. I think in particular that we have become, in the last forty years or so, less respectful of authority figures. Everyone can think of reasons why this might be a good thing: corrupt leaders who used to be able to get away with anything they wanted. But there is a downside, too. Look on TV, and parents and teachers are idiots--and it really doesn't seem to me that this was always true. I have seen very concrete changes in my lifetime in what goes on in schools and in what kids can get away with.
In addition to possibly seeking to lay responsibillity with the media, perhaps some of the blams goes on the litigiousness of our society. A lot of the negatives I have seen involve institutions caving because they are afraid of being sued--whether they are in the right or not.
Anyway, sorry for the rambling post.
In any case, I think the thread is correctly titled, because what the parent specifically told me was that honorable behavior was too much to expect in today's society, with the clear implication that it may once have been reasonable, but no longer. So that's the question I'm really asking. I stand by the title. Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
The big picture or the little picture?
I don't believe in legislating morality. I can try to do the best job of raising my kids I can. I can try to be an example of my beliefs. If I ever find success as a storyteller, I can try to tell stories that are truthful to me.
Beyond that, I don't know.
-o-
An anecdote (sort of): when I was thirteen, I knew virtually nobody who had any significant sexual experience of any kind. One boy had gotten a handjob from a girl, and that was about it. When I taught sixth grade four years ago, in an affluent neighborhood, we had one girl who sold sexual favors in exchange for money to buy drugs. Her level of promiscuity may not be common, but it seems that a substantial percentage of kids is more knowledgeable and experienced with sex than my generation was as kids. Now sex is not the be-all and end-all of morality. I realize there may be people reading this and saying "so what?" But it is one clear change I can see in the span of my lifetime in attitudes. And it comes with an out-of-hand rejection or the values of the parenting generation, which is the same rejection of values I see in saying that cheating is okay if you do not get caught.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Wait a minute, Goo Boy is Icarus?
>_<
I hate, hate, hate multiple screennames. (Though not the people who use them -- one of those "hate the sin, not the sinner things.")
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I refer specifically to violent crime amoung youth because of the people who point to things like the GTA games as indicators of this "moral decline."
WRT your example of the thirteen-year-old, a century or two ago that girl might well have already been married. I think the current generation doesn't have a monopoly on a comparatively high level of sexual experience. While I agree that many of today's teenagers are too cavalier about sex, I don't agree that this is indicative of an overall societal "moral decline." I don't think it's a symptom of anything greater than the fact that today's teenagers are comparatively cavalier about sex and don't take it as seriously as they should (part of the reason for that, of course, is poor sex education).
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
I talked about a lot more than sex, twink. I see some areas in which things are better, and I see others in which they seem worse in my lifetime. (And I'm not quite a hundred yet. )
Regardless, I know that any time you dare criticize any video game people will jump out to say it's about parenting, not games. And I agree that parents need to parent more. And that kids ought not have access to entertainment that is designed for adults. But, all that aside, kids do have access to these forms of entertainment, and I believe that these forms of entertainment are damaging. I suspect we may not be able to reach agreement on that one, because the video game defenders seem to have shouted everyone down on that, but it's the world I see.
(And I recognize that we're a long way from cheating, but I guess the crux of the topic is the world of today versus the world of previous generations. If there is a difference, I don't believe we should give into it. I believe we should have high standards and not be accepting of less.)
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:But, all that aside, kids do have access to these forms of entertainment, and I believe that these forms of entertainment are damaging.
Well, prove it. Can you? [Added: This sounds snarky, but it isn't intended that way. I do agree that they're damaging, just not in the way we're talking about.]
It's like the Calvin & Hobbes cartoon says. Does it glorify violence? Indeed. Does TV desensitize us to violence? Sure. Does it cause violence? Welllll.... that's hard to prove.
quote:...because the video game defenders seem to have shouted everyone down on that, but it's the world I see.
o_O
We must not follow the same news. The people in your camp, not the one you think I'm in, are the ones with the ability to make news and make laws.
Additionally, you're making an invalid inference about my views. I was very surprised to see a trickle of evidence beginning to show that video game violence and real violence are not correlated; I'd've expected to see the opposite, and it's not like I own any of the GTA games despite having a PS2. I'd be happy to see legal weight behind the ESRB's ratings, with heftier fines and better enforcement than exists currently. In fact, some Canadian provinces do just that.
Remember, I live in -- and believe in -- a nanny state. I'm very fond of my strong centralized government.
My complaint is that I constantly see people (of all ages) pointing at yesteryear and saying "gosh, things were so much better then." Well, I don't buy it. I think things were just as "bad" (though maybe in different ways, as you say), but that we didn't hear about them as often because we lacked efficient and sensationalistic mass media.
I'll accept your thread title as is, then, but while the parents you posted about are stupid as all get-out I'm not sure I believe that cheating is more common today than it was in the past.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
I'm a bit more conflicted than you seem to realize on this point. I don't know that things are worse on the whole. But yeah, I think that some responsibility on the part of television, music, and video game producers would help.
Prove it? Hell, twink, better people than I have spent hours researching that issue. I'm posting between grading a couple hundred papers for tomorrow. I'm not going to spend a couple of hours googling stuff. Everything I'm saying is based on nothing more than my anecdotal observations. If you want to dismiss it out of hand, I won't stop you.
But I'll tell you what, you notice a lot more when you watch TV with your kids than when you watch it by yourself. (And I'm not talking about late night TV, either.)
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
quote:
quote:...because the video game defenders seem to have shouted everyone down on that, but it's the world I see.
o_O
We must not follow the same news. The people in your camp, not the one you think I'm in, are the ones with the ability to make news and make laws.
I'm not talking about in society as a whole, I'm talking about on Hatrack. And I don't agree that I have a "camp."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I'll accept your thread title as is
Especially since the thread title referenced a specific incident of someone else claiming that it was something about the changing times that made copying more acceptable today.
It's not like Icky just decided to ask if cheating is to be expected today. Someone actually proposed it as a defense.
The thread title is absolutely accurate and representative of the event being discussed.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
Here's a thought: without touching the issue of whether or not cheating is more prevalent now than it was a generation or more ago, tell me what you think of this.
Do you think that the argument this parent made to me would have been made a generation ago?
(Does this make sense? I'm trying to get at the change in parenting. I'm suspecting that a generation ago, a parent would have been less likely to try to defend cheating in this way. Again, anecdotally, when I did wrong things, my parents were not interested in getting me out of trouble. They were more likely to add to whatever official sanctions were imposed.)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I don't think it would have been made when I was in high school, but my perception is of course heavily skewed by what I saw in high school.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Did you read this post of mine? That happened about 10-12 years ago.
I don't know what reason the parents gave for fighting the consequences of cheating on an ethics paper. I'd love to hear that argument.
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
Yeah, I read your post. I just didn't memorize the thread before posting.
But Theaca, would you say this was common back then, or an unusual situation? I mean, there have always been all kinds of idiots in the world. But it seems anymore you don't have to be rich and famous to fight for your kids to be exempt from the rules.
Heck, in the local middle school last year, there was a child who got an F for the fourth quarter. The parents went to the administration to contest it. The administration backed the teacher after conferencing with all involved. A month or so later, the teacher discovered that the parent went to the district, and the district overrode his grade and gave the kid a pass. But here's the thing: he was never contacted, and neither was the school administration. So clearly it was not on the basis of any sort of evidence or compelling claim that the grade was overturned. The district simply didn't feel like fighting.
(The teacher has since left the school.)
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*semi-tounge in cheek*
Maybe it's the "cheats" in the video/computer games themselves as much as anything, that are contributing as well. (Though they may just be symptomatic.) But now many people don't want to even truly play the game through correctly, they want to artificially inflate their score, or get to the goal faster or just play a specific section, and if the cheater codes and hacks can get them there, they will use 'em.
AJ
(the cheats and hacks are also very much collaborative with many people taking advantage of one person figuring something out, and a pooling of resources.)
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Do you think that the argument this parent made to me would have been made a generation ago?
No, I don't think it would have been made, or maybe it would have been rare.
I think that says a lot more about the world of modern adults than it does about the world of modern teenagers, though. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Your is perhaps indicating this thought, but is it possible to say something about the world of modern adults without saying something about the world of modern teenagers?
I mean, if the world of adults is more likely to have people in it who would make such an absurd argument as was made, doesn't that by necessity mean that the world of teenagers is more likely to have more teens who would need such a defense?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:I mean, if the world of adults is more likely to have people in it who would make such an absurd argument as was made, doesn't that by necessity mean that the world of teenagers is more likely to have more teens who would need such a defense?
In a word, no. There are a number of other possible reasons, and of course it's unlikely that there is one single cause.
I'm not saying that cheating is definitely not more common than in the past, just that I'm not willing to take that (or the larger idea of a "moral decline" in Western or North American society writ large) for granted. I actually agree with most of Icarus' points, I just don't like to see entire generations painted with such a broad brush.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
When dealing with morals there is simply no firm ground to stand on in order to judge what is happening around you. Morals always change with time, and whether they are better or worse is simply impossible to say, though comparisons are possible.
Here are a few observations on my part:
I think that with regards to cheating people today are less likely to be embarassed about it. And here I am thinking about everything from pagiarizing to taking bribes to stealing from your company's pension fund. What I see is a vast shrugging of soldiers by most people- we expect politicians, CEOs etc. to be at least a bit corrupt. We expect kids to do what it take to get the grade. It is a sort of cynical way of viewing things combined with pragmatism. We punish the people for wrongdoing, but we aren't as outraged as I think we may have been decades ago. It is the cynicism- the expectation of some level of wrongdoing- that is different.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I can certainly accept that argument, Jacare.
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quote:Although generalizations and stereotypes are flawed when applied to individuals, they can apply to groups (keeping in mind there will be exceptions).
They can, yes. I simply question whether this one does. I don't think saying this means I'm in denial, as you suggest. I certainly see Icarus' example of the girl as bad, and think it's reasonable to assume that most people would agree. I think it's very important to enforce standards against cheating in schools, and I also think that good, open sex education would help centre teens' attitudes toward sex.
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
quote:Originally posted by Goo Boy:
I don't believe in legislating morality. I can try to do the best job of raising my kids I can. I can try to be an example of my beliefs. If I ever find success as a storyteller, I can try to tell stories that are truthful to me.
Beyond that, I don't know.
I think as far as parenting goes (though I will admit that I myself am no parent) there are those who truly try to teach or show their children right and wrong, and there are those that make excuses for the bad things and try to whine and fuss about it until someone changes it for them.
At the same time, even the parents that do their best at teaching their kids about right and wrong don't always end up with do-good kids. It's sort-of a hit or miss thing.
For example, my brother and I are exactly two years apart (me older, him younger), our parents are still married, discuss and decide their parenting methods together and always did their best not to treat us any different, and in my opinion (and my brother's) we were raised pretty much exactly the same.
However when he was in his senior year of high school (grade twelve for all you Canadians ) his bad behavior, drinking and drug abuse was so bad that my parents court-ordered him into a rehab program that he spent two years as an inpatient in. Whereas it had never occured to me in high school to drink, I didn't even know anyone (or so I thought) that did any kind of drugs (marijuana included) and I certainly hadn't been pressured to do any of that.
If someone can explain to me why things like this happen you will answer a question that no one in my entire extended family has been able to answer in 10 years. To me, even good parenting seems like it has no significant effect in the long run, and kids who are predispositioned to do something are just going to do it.
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Another case of the dishonorable getting the honorable in trouble. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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They really take the honor code seriously there. And it's not enforced by staff or faculty.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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