I can't stand the book - I don't think it is particularly well-written, and there's a reverance for the life that the description does not justify. At first I thought it could be another level of self-awareness, but no. Not a great book.
However, the movie looks fabulous.
Zhang Zi, Michelle Yeoh, Ken Wanatabe. Directed by the guy who did Chicago, which I liked. Looks like a beautiful epic, and I'm very happy someone put my favorite mentor/mentee relationship back on screen.
Trailer Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I heard the book on tape and thought it was okay. Couldn't read the book myself (I think the version I listened to on tape was edited.)
So a movie looks interesting.
Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
I liked the book alot. It's been a while, but reverence for the life of the geisha is not what came through for me. I think she was awed by physical beauty of her surroundings (reasonable in Kyoto and Nara) and deeply afraid of the older courteseans (rightfully so.) I also thinks she approaches the story of her past with a great deal of nostalgia.
I'll be interested to see the film.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Wow, Gong Li is in it. Great actress.
Posted by BunnV (Member # 6816) on :
Wow, that trailer is magnificent.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
But why all the Chinese actors? Aren't the characters supposed to be Japanese?
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Doesn't anyone else find something...dreadfully wrong about a movie about Japanese Geishas starring an almost completely Chinese main cast?
EDIT - Hey, Destineer, Jinx!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The same way the main character of Gone with the Wind, a Southern girl of Irish and French descent, was played by an English woman. Mildly wrong, but if the actors do a good job then it's fine.
[ August 29, 2005, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
All the Koreans on M*A*S*H were played by Vietnamese people...
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
It just seems to have an air of "Eh, Chinese, Japanese. They're all asians, right? What's the difference."
It just seems wrong.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Isn't Ken Watanabe Japanese?
I got the feeling they got the biggest stars for the roles they could. Are there any Japanese actresses that would have preferred? (Honest question - I can't think of any japanese actresses (from Japan) famous in the U.S.)
(Michelle Yeoh is Malaysian.)
Added: Actually, that makes me wonder. Is it better to have someone from Asia but non-Japanese descent, or an American of Japanese descent?
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Watanabe is. Zhang Zi, however, who I absolutely adore, as well as most of the key women in the film, isn't.
quote:Are there any Japanese actresses that would have preferred?
Thats what casting agencies are for.
quote:Actually, that makes me wonder. Is it better to have someone from Asia but non-Japanese descent, or an American of Japanese descent?
Japanese descent.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Why?
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Because just because a majority of americans may not pick up on them, there are different physical characteristics.
Let's put it this way - while the majority of americans won't be able to tell the difference, when it plays in Asia, they certainly will.
I just think it reinforces a sort of pseudo-racist concept of "All asians are the same."
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I agree.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
It would kind of be like Antonio Banderas playing a full-blood German.
Posted by BunnV (Member # 6816) on :
But aren't there many successful movies that have casted actors of a nationality different from the character they are playing? It happens a lot with American films. Not only Americans playing someone non-American, but non-Americans playing American characters. I agree with what Katrina said about it not mattering as long as the acting is good.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
The difference is, a large amount of Americans do have pure lines going directly through European nations.
You can truly be fully american, and fully Irish, or English, or French. America really is a melting pot, and it is often hard (and in many cases impossible) to determine, at first glance, what the country of original origin is for americans of European descent. The gene pool IS, and has been for centuries, very communal.
With China and Japan, it's very, very much less so.
Japan - and China - are both highly nationalistic nations. Japan isolated itself for centuries.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Would you replace Zhang Zi with Lucy Liu (Is Lucy Liu Japanse?)?
I think the subtle physical distinctions are less important than the quality of the acting.
I also think that Americans of Japanese descent are almost always at least partly something else - most have some caucasion blood. How Japanese is Japanese enough?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I also think that Americans of Japanese descent are almost always at least partly something else - most have some caucasion blood.
I disagree. In some areas, there are a lot of "pure-blooded" Japanese-Americans.
Also, sometimes the differences are not so subtle. While a REALLY good story and acting can indeed transcend that, in anything else it is likely to bother some people the whole way through.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I was thinking you were meaning Japanese living in America whose parents were Japanese.
In some cases, it certainly doesn't matter.
In this film, the nationality of the characters is a major part of who they are, and the circumstances.
In Kill Bill, Lucy Liu (who is Chinese-American) played someone with mixed heritage.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What it seems like you are saying is that it is better to have someone pureblood Japanese than to have someone who is Asian but would do an outstanding job.
I don't agree. I don't agree with Rowling insisting on all English actors for the Harry Potter movies, either. I think it should be whoever would do the best job, as long as it isn't horribly, glaringly, joltingly wrong (Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's).
Added: Isn't the movie in English?
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I'm saying I'm sure they could have looked a little harder in Japan.
And yes - it is in English. So you get to hear them speak English with Chinese accents.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What if part of the key to the movie is the relationship between Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Zi? By your standard, neither would be in the movie, so they'd have to find two people in Japan who had the same dynamic.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I bet they could be found.
The thing is, for the studio, is that these "Asian Names" are already familiar to Americans. So why try and get some other "asian names" that Americans don't recognise?
I really don't believe it's a matter of not finding talent.
Are you saying you don't think that two extremely talented Japanese actresses could be found with a killer dynamic?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I wouldn't refuse lightning in a bottle because it was the wrong shade of lightning.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
But it's a movie about the culture!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Maybe the filmmakers think it is a movie about a series of relationships.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Let me clarify: it's a movie where the culture is at the forefront, and directly affects everything within.
So you wouldn't object to Ken Watanabe being cast as, say, quintessential Virginian General Robert E Lee in an American Civil War film?
Or to have the Army of the Potomac played entirely by Mexicans?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Of the eight people listed as top-billed, four are Japanese. I wouldn't say "almost all the actors are Chinese."
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Is the movie going to be shot in Spanish and shown in Russia?
I'd think you'd be more upset that it's in English. It's clearly an American movie, headed by an American director. We're lucky the geisha isn't being played by Nicole Kidman.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:We're lucky the geisha isn't being played by Nicole Kidman.
Darn lucky! Then again, I'm not a Nicole Kidman fan.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'd think you'd be more upset that it's in English. It's clearly an American movie, headed by an American director. We're lucky the geisha isn't being played by Nicole Kidman.
Actually, I am upset that it's in English *grin*.
But that's to be expected, and somewhat excused. When a single language is being used in a film, and interaction with other languages isn't key, the actual language the performances are given in usually doesn't bother me. I prefer accurate localized languages, and American filmmakers have done it (Crouching Tiger, Passion).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Taalcon: Because just because a majority of americans may not pick up on them, there are different physical characteristics.
Let's put it this way - while the majority of americans won't be able to tell the difference, when it plays in Asia, they certainly will.
I just think it reinforces a sort of pseudo-racist concept of "All asians are the same."
I disagree. I think the idea that they all look so different is overblown.
Have you ever gone to alllooksame.com? You get to take a quiz and determine if each person is Chinese, Japanese, or Korean.
My Japanese (not just by blood -- she is Japanese in every sense of the word) sister-in-law only got something like 6 correct out of 18.
The problem is that most clues that she uses to determine nationality are cultural, not genetic, and most of the people shown in that site are at the very least highly westernized.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Do you object to Crouching Tiger (American filmmaker?) because Michelle Yeoh isn't Chinese?
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
When I was in Japan, I was constantly asked for directions in Japanese, and spoken to in Japanese. I'm pretty sure they mistook me for Japanese (I'm of Korean descent).
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
If I see someone who looks Korean walking around in Atlanta, GA, I'll assume they speak English, too, unless I learn otherwise. I may even ask them directions in English if I'm lost.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Not a good analogy.
When I was in Tokyo, nobody assumed that I knew Japanese.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
This seems silly to me. Actors and actresses play people of other ethnicities/nationalities all the time.
Jennifer Lopez was a Puerto Rican actress playing a Mexican singer in Selena. Was that okay?
Jamie-Lynn Sigler is an Cuban-American actress playing an Italian-American girl on The Sopranos.
I have no idea what ethnicity Lou Diamond Phillips is, but I've seen him play a native american, an asian, a mexican, and probably a few other ethnicities as well.
Tony Shalhoub played an Arab-American in The Siege, and did fine. He played an Italian-American on Wings and did great. What is he? I had to look it up, turns out he's a Lebanese-American.
Who cares? If you look reasonably close to the ethnicity of the character you are playing, and do a good job, what's the big deal?
And I gotta ask, if you had no idea who Zhang Ziyi and the rest of the cast were, would their countries of origin be so obvious by looking at them that it would pull you out of the story? If so, perhaps it says more about your own racism than that of the producers of this movie.
[ August 29, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
I liked the book it was okay, the life of an entertainer during the pre war years and then the war years and then the post war years.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Okay, looked up the ethnicity of Lou Diamond Phillips, and this is what I found on IMDB:
quote: Is of Spanish, Scottish/Irish, Chinese, Filipino, Hawaiian, and Cherokee ancestry.
I would pity the agent trying to find roles for an actor where the characters are of that mix. .
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
Just an FYI. Is there a mirror for the site anywhere that you know of?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think that modern theater (movies, TV, etc.) is too tied to specific actors, and not enough to good stories.
For example, people mock old TV shows for changing the actor for a character, but kept the character (Bewitched, Giligan's Island, and Dukes of Hazard come to mind).
I think we should have more of that. I think that the story should not be beholden to the antics of actors.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
MrF: Huh. I don't know what happened to that site. Sorry.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Perhaps it's just the fact that I've gotten used to 'historical' films striving more for accuracy - both dramatically and physically - than the Spectacle Films which played more towards a Stage Theatrical aesthetic.
For me, Film and Stage are very separate. Films like the Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, and even Ghandi, while being wonderfully entertaining (and even thought provoking), award winning productions, are very much Theatrical Presentations, and never for a minute convince me I am watching anything but a glorified stage play.
I'm jaded and spoiled now by film. I'll admit that in a moment.
If a film purports to be an historically accurate tale, I want to believe I'm looking into a window to that past.
With films that don't claim to be such, I am much, much more forgiving with my suspension of disbelief.
In short: I'm a righteously indignant spoiled brat.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Since I don't think any serious historian has ever purported Memoirs of a Geisha to be historically accurate, you should be just fine on that score .
For anyone looking for a historically accurate view of geisha life, check out Autobiography of a Geisha, by Sayo Masuda.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
wooooow, amazing trailer.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Tony Shalhoub played an Arab-American in The Siege, and did fine. He played an Italian-American on Wings and did great. What is he? I had to look it up, turns out he's a Lebanese-American.
Technically, Tony Shalhoub is a Cheesehead. And he used to go to my church.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Not a good analogy.