OK, I'm starting this thread because it seems insensitive to post this in the Hurricane thread, but even if you are well out of the range of Katrina's winds and water, you could get leveled by her second blow.
30% of the US oil supply comes from the Gulf. Nearly half of the US refineries are along the Gulf Coast. We don't know how bad the damage is yet but the potential for major gas shortages in the wake of Katrina is real. This morning, speculation on the stock market due to Katrina had already driven the price of Crude over $70/barrel. The price of gasoline has already jumped 35 cents/gallon to wholesalers and that jump should show up at the pump by Wednesday if not sooner. And that jump is simply due to speculation in the market, if there has been signifcant damage to oil platforms, pipelines and ports the price could climb much higher.
If there has been significant damage to refiners, there will be major shortages of gasoline throughout the Southeast. Releasing oil from the strategic reserves won't help refine the oil. Even if refineries are simply closed down for several days because of flooding and power outages, there will be major short falls of gasoline.
We have no idea right how much damage has been done to the gasoline infrastructure, but I suspect that by thursday leaders will be calling on people not to fill their tanks.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
glad I filled up at lunch
still... 2.73/gallon.. and across the street at the sHell station it was 2.87/gallon
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Before anyone else says this. I fully recognize that paying extra for gasoline or even having to go without driving for a few days is nothing compared to the horrors of the people who have been caught in this storm.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
We need to come up with a better system than this gasoline-powered internal combustion engine. The whole thing seems to be more and more risky and ill conceived.
Any Hatrackers have any better ideas?
How about a wind-driven spinner that stores wind-driven spin that we can plug our wind-up cars into, to wind them up? If you are far from home, and are running out of spin on your wind-up, you can pull into a spin station (you can tell them by all the windmills on top) and wind up. But you can always wind up at home from the windmill at your house.
Wind-up cars! Whoo-Hoo! And hurricanes would just give us more spin for our cars!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
One more thing. I haven't heard anyone official say this yet. But if you live anywhere near the Gulf coast, you might want to put off filling the tank until we know how bad the shortages are going to be.
This is a bit counter intuitive but imagine how horrible it would be if rescue crews couldn't get into the affected areas because panic buying of gasoline left nothing for the emergency efforts. Its much better for me and you to have to pay extra at the pump or even walk everywhere for the next week than it would be if emergency efforts run short on gas.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Hey Tante, Believe it or not there is a real technology out there that isn't that far from wind-up cars. Fly wheel driven cars. These cars store energy in a massive spinning magnetically levitated wheel. The wheel can be wound up with electricity or a small motor and then the rotationaly energy can be slowly tapped to turn the wheels.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Golly!
Wanna wanna wanna.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"We have no idea right how much damage has been done to the gasoline infrastructure, but I suspect that by thursday leaders will be calling on people not to fill their tanks."
Don't count on it.
"We can't conserve our way to energy independence." - G.W. Bush
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Flywheel driven cars are a neat idea, except that because of the massive gyroscope in their belly, they have a serious handling problem. The gyro effect prevents them from rotating in certain directions.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Whoo Hoo!
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
On a lighter note, I just figured out how to drive to take full advantage of my Prius. Before my last tank I averaged around 40-43 mpg, but on the last tank I averaged 53. And on this tank so far I'm averaging 58. Based on what I'm seeing since I changed my driving style I think 60 is easily within reach.
One simple improvement would be to put a great big fuel mileage indicator right up next to the speedometer in every car.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: "We have no idea right how much damage has been done to the gasoline infrastructure, but I suspect that by thursday leaders will be calling on people not to fill their tanks."
Don't count on it.
"We can't conserve our way to energy independence." - G.W. Bush
Of course Bush et al won't actually call for conservation as a long term solution, but if there is a serious short term shortage of gas as a result of Katrina, I suspect state governors will start making the requests for conservation very soon.
I remember back in the late seventies when there would be a scare about gas shortages so people would all go out to top off their tanks which would create a gas shortages. If that happens around the Gulf coast tomorrow, it could seriously interfere with rescue efforts. If that happens, I suspect even George Bush will start calling for conservation (at least for a week or two).
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Flywheel driven cars are a neat idea, except that because of the massive gyroscope in their belly, they have a serious handling problem. The gyro effect prevents them from rotating in certain directions.
There is a simple solution to that. You use two flywheels instead of one and have them spin in opposite directions. It is a bit more complex because you need decent controls to make sure that the the two wheels are always spinning at the same speed but that isn't that big of a problem.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
<--- Will get a hybrid when he learns to drive, as paying $54 for a tank of gas is ridiculous.
--j_k
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I heard about a new kind of car that stores breaking energy in the form of compressed gas. The compressed gas is used for start up - it's apparantly more efficient than internal combustion engines at low speed/high-torque.
Haven't heard anything since I saw the blurb in Discover or somesuch, but it's supposed to give better economy than hybrids for less weight and complexity.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
I saw that too. Possibly the same place you did, on a newsmagazine-kind-of TV show. Seems to me it was quite some time ago, like right around the same time the Honda Hybrids came out. MIT or somebody made a concept car, but I haven't heard anything about it since.
One thing the hybrids have on all the other fuel efficient/low emission cars is that they're here, now, and they work, really well.
Even initial shakedown problems haven't materialized, and fears of expensive mechanical repairs are offset by the fact that the drivetrain and brakes see substantially less service. Prius owners rarely need a brake job before 85K for example, and based on field data, the hybrid system components are now expected to outlast the service life of the car.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Since prices went up this summer I had already been driving as little as possible, and combining errands so I can conserve gas, but now that school has started I'm going to need at least a tank a week even if I go nowhere but school and back. Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Belle, my hubby and I are in the same boat. I wish I lived close enough to school to ride my bike.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I live 10 miles from the town where I work, shop and go to church. Walking is not an option. Avoiding those activities is not an option.
I think it's high time my husband quits smoking, don't you? That is an option from where I'm sitting. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I really wish there was better bus service from my town to where I work. I have taken the bus in the past, and I have carpooled as well. I am willing to do both again if I can possibly work it out. But the bus schedules here are not planned by sane people, and carpooling isn't looking too feasible. Next option: sell our place here and buy one closer to work.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
afr: that's pretty close to what I was thinking, except that we rent. However, I don't want to move (find a new place, new landlord; pack up everything; move ... ). We currently live in a town of about 600 population, in a mobile home with a nice yard. Next year I'm planning to have a garden, which I couldn't have in an apartment.
Also, since we live out of the town where I work, shop and go to church (and the kids go to school!), we would have to make sure we move into the area for my younger daughter's school so she doesn't have to switch. She's open enrolled now. Next year, she'll be in middle school (5th grade) and it won't matter what part of town we move to.
But it really boils down to I don't want to move.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
The gas prices are really hurting our budget already but because of my work and my hubby's school schedule, not to mention the kids school schedules its not an option to not use our vehicles. Gas is already up to $2.73 for the lowest octane. I pulled into a Chevron today and all the pumps were taped off with caution tape. I didn't have time to go in and find out why. I wonder if they ran out of gas to sell or are conserving it or ?????
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
Gas prices piss me off. And that's putting it nicely.
Riding the bus to work is a 4 HOUR A DAY time commitment (2 hours to work and 2 hours back) but DANGIT! I'm going to have to start dragging my butt out of bed at 5:30 AM to get to work by 8:00AM.
Presidential Executive Order #Cstroman: Gas Prices will be fixed at $1.50 for regular unleaded until further notice.
(on a side note I saw some scenes from "I, Myself and Irene" on cable the other day and there is a scene at a Gas Station and it had the prices on it: $1.30 and that was PREMIUM and only a few years ago.)
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I'm not looking forward to the higher gas prices. I normally have to fill up at least once a week.
I wish there was more I could do to decrease my gas consumption. Unfortunately, we live 25 miles from my office (about 23 from my husband's). It would have been nice to live closer to our respective offices, but we could not afford housing in the area. Carpooling, unfortunately, doesn't work either. Hubby works nights and not the same nights/times as the two other guys in the subdivision that work with him. I frequently do work off-site, and so have to travel further from my office. I am hoping to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle later this year (at the moment I drive a small, older pick-up), but the vehicle we buy is somewhat dependent on the equipment I need to transport for work. They don't fit in my husband's trunk easily (without major smashing and an occasional pulled muscle on my part), but I'm hoping a slightly different vehicle with a different trunk opening configuration will work. As it is, I combine trips whenever possible (and drive my husband's more fuel efficient car whenever feasible). I just don't know what else to do. *sigh*
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
I live 48 miles from my office. I drive a truck (a small 6 cylinder at least). Paying for gas for all intents and purposes RAPES my pocketbook.
(no offense meant to anyone who has been physically raped)
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
It's interesting how we've kind of gotten over the initial shock of gas prices being so high and are now trying to figure out how we're going to handle it in the long term. For a little while the thought of prices continuing to climb was really stressing me out. Now I think I've accepted it a bit more and am more open to alternatives.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
Gas in my neighborhood (one of the few remaining gas stations with gas available) went from $2.49 this morning to $2.69 this afternoon.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ehh? Perhaps we could use the thread already made for this?
This thread had a different intent than the one you started months ago. The point was to to discuss the specific impact of Katrina on Gas prices.
It seems a bit petty of you to change the title on your old thread and then come in and insist we all go over there to hold this discussion.
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I'm not sure what else I can do to conserve.
I already run errands in groups. No second trips. I don't drive to the post office anymore, except for stamps; I drop mail in the apartment mailbox. My car is in pretty good shape, I'm getting more than 25mpg.
I can't cut out my commute, it's 15 miles one way, so 30 miles total, everyday. It's I-35, down and back, with a minimum of side street travel. I'm lucky that 28 of those 30 miles are on the highway, as it allows me better fuel economy. I'm unlucky in the public transit department. Taking the bus is cheaper, but it would definitely consume more time. Probably a lot of time, if I'm reading the maps and schedules correctly. Not only that, but my work schedule is subject to "variations". Between those two reasons, I'll stick to driving for the time being.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Honestly I changed the title before I saw this thread, and I apologize I didn't read the whole thing, I just saw people posting gas prices and thought for the sake of clutter, why not conserve it onto one thread.
And it was just a suggestion, I didn't by any means insist.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Silly Lyr - don't you know threads are a popularity contest?
quote:Next option: sell our place here and buy one closer to work.
I moved close to work in part for this exact reason. I still have to drive an hour to school (and back) twice a week, but that was going to happen anyway. I live 3.2 miles from work now, and I love it. Highly reccomended. I just added an hour a day to my life.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well if they are, I've never won before, so I certainly wasn't attempting to lobby for a victory here. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Sorry Lyr, I didn't mean to be quite so snitty in my post.
My husband and I picked our home specifically so we wouldn't have to drive to work. We live within about 3 miles of both of our work locations, have good bicycling access and good bus access for bad weather days. It always suprises me that so many Americans consider 15 or more miles one way commuting to be acceptable.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
I used to ride my bike to work everyday, but since my back (and now shoulder) surgery I can't do it anymore. But 10 miles each way is quite reasonable on a bike. For a couple of years I rode 14 miles each way. I expect we'll be seeing a lot more of that soon.
Hopefully I'll be able to ride again soon. I started to a little earlier in the summer, but then I got the shoulder worked on and that put an end to it for now.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I wish I could ride to work. I am hampered by the loss of my bike to theives. I could buy another one, but it's not even close to the top of the list of things to do with fun money.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I ride my bike to work in the summer. But come October, it's just a little too chilly to ride to work, and there really isn't anywhere to put all the layers I'd have to wear once I get there.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I used to ride a bike 10 miles each way to and from work as well. Somehow spending 30 minutes to an hour commuting by bike seems much less like lost time than spending the same time in a car.
One of the great things about walking or biking to work is that it makes exercise an integral part of your daily routine. No matter how busy you are, you still have to get to and from work so you still get in some physical activity.
Currently, we've chosen to live closer to work because of winter. Ten to 15 miles of cycling to and from work is no problem in good weather, but when there is snow and ice on the road I'd rather be closer.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I've got an office where I can change my clothes once I get to work and plenty of space to store the extra layers. Unfortunately, once the temperature drops below about 15 °F, I just can't keep my hands and feet warm enough on the bike. When I lived in Montana, I walked to work through the winter for that reason. For some reason, its just easier for me to keep the hands and feet warm walking than riding.
Here in Utah, it is rarely too cold for me to ride in the winter. It's not the cold its the ice that makes me avoid a long bike commute in winter. I've crashed one too many times on the ice. With only three miles to get home at night, I can push the bike home if the roads are dangerously icy. If I lived 10 miles away, that would be alot more time consuming.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I can go jogging in the morning until it gets into the teens, then even when I'm movimg I'm still too cold, the sweat starts to freeze to my face. So, I could jog to work around five, but I'd never jog home after the sun went down, just too cold.
Ever crash like the kid on the bike in While You Were Sleeping?
I love that part. Sorry, got sidetracked,
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
quote:It always suprises me that so many Americans consider 15 or more miles one way commuting to be acceptable
I agree. It's not acceptable. However, neither is the job I currently have. Short story: I'm wasting my potential there. I'm not moving closer to that job mere moments before I leave it. I'm going to hunt for closer housing with the next job I get.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Ever crash like the kid on the bike in While You Were Sleeping? ,
Sorry, I've never seen that pic. How does the kid crash?
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
Sometimes you put up with the commute because it is the only way you can get a job paying enough. We can't afford to live any closer to where I work and with summer temperatures over 105 on a regular basis I would have to shower as soon as I got to work if I biked, that is if I made it without passing out from heat exhaustion first. Some places it is easier to bike/walk/bus to work. My town just isn't that easy. I loved living in Provo because you could walk/bike/bus to most places with little problem.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
hope everyone enjoys spendin 3 bucks a gallon
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
We were up in Gurnee, IL this past weekend visiting my sister's family, and my parents remarked on the low gas prices in the area. It was about $2.70 for the "cheap" stuff.
I was shocked to here that was low. I've lived without a car for a year now, so I've had no reason to pay attention to gas prices. I knew they were getting high, but I didn't expect prices to be near $3.00.
I'm very lucky to live in a region with excellent public transportation. I didn't rent a car when in Detroit, and the transportation was terrible. I ended up taking four taxis just so I could get to places in a decent amount of time. I believe in good public transportation, because it just makes it so much easier to get around. Even if you have a car, there's times when taking the bus is better. I often took the bus/train on visits downtown because I hate driving downtown--not to mention the high cost of parking!
The Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum (small museum, but absolutely lovely) has an exhibit on the Chicago Metropolis 2020 plan. The plan looks to unite the counties in our region to better the region as a wholem providing such things as better transportation, availability of homes near job sites, and more park space. I think it makes a whole lot of sense, and I hope it comes to fruition. More info is here - this looks like a web version of the exhibit from the museum.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I'd love to bike to work, and it's only about 3 miles from my house to the office.
2 problems:
1) I'm in southern Louisiana, which means I'd be drenched by the time I got to work, and there are no shower facilities at the office, and
2) I'm a consulting engineer, and at least 2-3 days a week I have to go to jobsites and architects' offices for meeting/inspections (I never know when this will be).
Me having a car was one of the requirements when I took this job, so I can't just shrug that off. The only other option is to leave my car at the office, but that's even more of an inconvenience. Other than work, I really don't drive very much.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
"hope everyone enjoys spendin 3 bucks a gallon"
Try $4.00 Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
This got my attention:
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I'm in southern Louisiana
I suppose you must have answered in a (different) Katrina thread, but how are you doing?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
This thread got me thinking about whether biking to work would be feasible for me. I live 4.6 miles away from where I work, so distance isn't too bad. The issue I would have is that I don't think showing up at work sweaty and smelly would be a good idea. I could change my clothes and shoes when I got to work in the bathroom or something, but somehow I don't think I would be stink free. Not on a hot day anyway.
Too bad they don't have showers in my office building.
I do around 90% of my driving to and from work, so besides winter, I practically wouldn't need a car if I could figure this out...
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Before anyone else says this. I fully recognize that paying extra for gasoline or even having to go without driving for a few days is nothing compared to the horrors of the people who have been caught in this storm.
And for those people who are now relying on helicopters and powerboats to move to safety, and for the long term rebuilding that will need doing in that area, the rest of us can do our best to conserve: oil, lumber, etc. They're going to need it.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
I didn't have showers at work when I rode to work. Bicycling tends to keep you cool, since there is a constant wind, unless you're climbing a hill.
Very rarely did I feel a need for a shower, and mostly it was coming home in the afternoon. It's generally pretty cool in the morning, except for a few days a year. (at least around here)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
People who seriously say that driving 15 miles to work every day is unacceptable don't understand what it's like to live in America from a purely geographic standpoint.
For instance, I think it's Charlotte (might be another NC city) which has most of its workers living outside of the city. And it's not like they could change that now.
America is spread out... it's vast. You can't fairly compare it to England and European countries. It's easier to live on a smaller scale there, as they still have neighborhoods with everything you need readily accessable.
In America, though, if you work in the city, chances are you don't live there. And if you live in the "country," chances are things are so spread out that you HAVE to drive to go shopping and go to work.
Maybe if you live in the city and work in the city, biking becomes advantageous... even necessary.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I think one of the obvious effects of high(er) gas prices is that we'll see a return to nuclear cities....
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Glenn, I'm fine. My hometown (Hammond) took serious wind damage and the last I heard they'll be without power for 4-6 weeks. A couple of my friends houses got hit by trees, but everyone's alright, and I heard a lot of "It could have been much worse."
My brother is staying with me till LSU goes back to school, cause he still doesn't have power in Baton Rouge. We're all fine though, thanks for asking.
A lot of my friends from college have apparently been freaking out a little cause they can't get in touch with me (my cellphone is a Hammond number, and it's virtually useless) but I think I've passed the word around to everyone by now.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I think one of the obvious effects of high(er) gas prices is that we'll see a return to nuclear cities....
Never!
I refuse to glow in the dark!
-Bok
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I live 7 miles from work, and I would love to bike to work during all but the harshest months of winter, but there are only two routes that I could really take. One of them involves being on one interstate and one state route for most of the way, both of which strike me as foolish places to ride a bike, and the other is through a series of incredibly bad neighborhoods, in which I definitely wouldn't be safe.
I'd like to carpool with someone, but there doesn't seem to be anyone in my general area who works in my building.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:People who seriously say that driving 15 miles to work every day is unacceptable don't understand what it's like to live in America from a purely geographic standpoint.
Curious that you would say that because I'm the one who said it and I have lived in the Western US for virtually all of my life.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Its $3.19 in San Diego right now.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
El JT de Spang,
I had to reread your post a couple of times before I figured out you can't be posting from Hammond, 'cause wherever you are still has power. I'd guess there will be problems all over what with shortages and so forth.
Good luck.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: People who seriously say that driving 15 miles to work every day is unacceptable don't understand what it's like to live in America from a purely geographic standpoint.
Which is one of the major arguments against urban sprawl. There was a time when towns were built in such a way that everything was within walking distance.
Then again, 15 miles is within biking distance, yet most people don't see it that way. It doesn't really matter whether winter or other weather interferes with riding your bike, because anytime you can ride your bike is better than nothing.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Biking...bah. I roller blade to public trans hubs and get around that way. Storage is so much easier and blading is a lot more fun. You're kinda screwed if it rains though.
The "bike/blade/pogo stick" to the office initiative is one that I'd love to see carried out, and not just because it would make my life a lot easier. It'd be good for the country, economically, healthy wise, pollution wise, and psychologically. Goodness knows, perhaps the rising gas prices might make this a possibility.
---
So, perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the whole "stratgeic crude oil reserves" and "Increassed oil production" and "price for barrels of crude oil" things unrelated to what's actually happened? That is, except in public perception and people trying to make a quick buck out of it. We've lost refining capacity, not a significant volume of crude oil. The price of barrels of oil is going up because people see an oppurtunity to make money, not because there's any realistic reason why crude oil has become a more valuable commodity, right? I mean, the demand will be effectively lessened as the crude to refined oil throughput is now significantly lower until these refineries (or something replacing them) come back on line.
In the same vein, what the heck is having strategic reserves of crue oil or OPEC pumping out more crude oil going to help us with? As far as I can tell, the supply of crude hasn't changed.
Also, <insert rant about gas stations indulging in price gouging>.
[ August 31, 2005, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: Since prices went up this summer I had already been driving as little as possible, and combining errands so I can conserve gas, but now that school has started I'm going to need at least a tank a week even if I go nowhere but school and back.
I'm the same way. But my problem is that:
1. I live about 13 miles outside of the city limits
2. I'm a full time student in High-school. That means I have to be at school by 7:45 at the latest, which would put me at getting up around 5am to bike there.
3. I work in a theatre. I usually don't get off till about 2 or 3 am. I need to sleep at least 3 hours before even attempting to go to school.
4. I live in rural Indiana... There are a lot of hills, blind curves and pot-hole infested roads between me and town. there are several bicycling fatalities a year. I do not care to be one of them.
5. My income is not predictable. At the moment, I am getting steady work. However, since I'm low on the seniority list (but high on the skills list) I have little job security. If my Unions business agent only has 5 jobs open for a show, and none of them require one of my specific skills (rigging), then the odds of him getting through the 30 some people ahead of me is extremely low.
So basically, I'm going to have to go into debt, in order to have any hopes of one day being able to get out of it....
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
There are long lines outside the gas stations in Orlando. I'm visiting my brother tonight and on the way here, all of them had cars lined up into the street. I'm having flashbacks to the '70s.
There are rumors going around that gas will run out in all or part of Florida and I think people are panicking.
I tend to think that's crazy talk. In this case, I think the market will find a way, but we'll see.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah Squick, opening up our crude oil reserves will do absolutely nothing to ease the gas crisis we seem to be finding ourselves in. The bottleneck right now is in refining the crude oil, not producing it. It's a gesture, pure and simple, designed to make people feel like the president is doing *something*, in much the same way the president's leaving his ranch and returning to Washington is a gesture.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Hmm...55 miles away from where I work driving an old Cadillac. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The upside of the rising gas prices is that it may focus our country on reducing its dependence on oil, and do it while oil is still plentiful enough that we'll have time to wean ourselves off of it.
Of course, a resonable person would have thought the same thing about the oil crisis of the 1970s, so you never know, but if I were to pick a silver lining for all of this that would be it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Lots of gas stations with bags over the handles tonight. Had to pass three before I found a Shell with gas....
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
By the way, I think that before the country starts conserving energy, It'll turn to nuclear energy...in the nuclear cities. Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I'm kinda looking forward to doing my errands on bike tomorrow. Everything is close enough, and I don't have to haul lots of groceries. I'll save a gallon of gas, at least. Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I like living on a university campus in the middle of downtown. Classes? Five to fifteen minutes of walking. Food? In my dorm complex, and no more than twenty minutes to 50 restaurants. Mail? In my building. Doctor? Ten minutes. Library? Five minutes. My friends? Some are down the hallway. Movie theater? Twenty minutes. Rec center? Two minutes. Groceries are an issue, but I could probably ride the bus if I couldn't tag along when my friends with cars go.
Clearly, the solution is for all Americans to go back to college!
Posted by Hmm216 (Member # 8403) on :
I live in Orlando,Fl and I waited 1 hour for gas. I had to use premium because that was that was left. Many of the gas stations were out of gas, and the ones that werent has long lines to get gas.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I had to wait for gas last night, but that's because the the girl in front of me finished pumping gas, then spent TEN MINUTES CLEANING EVERY WINDOW ON HER CAR TWICE. I swear she did it just to annoy me. I don't know what's wrong with her. >_<
And I paid $36 for 14 gallons of gas. That should last me until a week from tomorrow, though, now that the drive to work is less than four miles.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
I stand corrected: Bush has said that he hopes people will conserve gas.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Clearly, the solution is for all Americans to go back to college!
Really, colleges are a good model for planning. Many college not only have dorms for student housing, but also buy or build houses within walking distance to campus, which they sell to professors with the agreement that the proffessor has to sell it back to the college when they no longer work there.
Businesses (especially bars, but...) build up in a single district within walking distance, so students from campus can walk downtown for entertainment and shopping.
I question whether this is still true today, since most colleges have been in business for a long time. The infrastructure I'm talking about may predate the automobile in some cases, but thankfully colleges seem to stay in business for a very long time, so the infrastructure still exists.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Doesn't Florida have its own refineries? Looking at the pipeline diagram... Pipeline Map it appears that Florida is not connected to the Colonial Pipeline. It isn't all trucked in is it?
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
The two short pipelines on the Florida peninsula both come from seaports. I'd guess that gasoline is brought to the seaports by ship, stored in tanks on shore and then transported by truck. Florida has a lot of coastline.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I'd just like to point out that it's Thursday andI just read the following on the NPR website.
quote:President Bush acknowledged in a news conference Thursday there would be a temporary disruption in the nation's oil supply, and he called on the country to conserve energy. "Don't buy gas if you don't need it," Bush said.
Remember, you heard it first from The Rabbit at Hatrack.com We need a gloating icon.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Look 4 posts back.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Thanks Glenn, I appreciate nothing more than a man who admits he was wrong before it's pointed out.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
"Europe will dip into its emergency stocks of gasoline to help the United States through an energy crisis that began when Hurricane Katrina smashed into Gulf coast refiners, EU governments said on Friday.
Spain and Germany said they were ready and able to send fuel across the Atlantic in an operation coordinated by the West's energy watchdog, the International Energy Agency. A U.S. government official confirmed Washington had asked for help and said most of the gasoline would come from Europe."
Hopefully this helps things a little.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
How long does it take an tanker of gasoline to cross the Atlantic? I seem to recall it's something on the order of 2 weeks.
Depending on the extent of the damage, gasoline from Europe might not make it here before most of the refineries are back up and running.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I wasn't sure how feasible shipping gasoline was. I'm glad to hear this, although I think you might be right about the timeframe.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Well, it's a nice gesture anyway. And just knowing that there is more coming might lessen some of the fear about shortages and keep the prices from getting out of control right now.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That's very true, camus. It's stockpiling that will cause the major problems in the short term.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The IEA is releasing 60 million barrels of oil, gas and other refined materials over the next month, at 2 million barrels per day.
I don't know if that means giving, or selling, or what, but it certainly should help.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
There's a very interesting article in today's Financial Times on the IEA move. Specifically, people are pointing out how the emphasis on the US's massive Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which has long been criticized by other countries, has been proven ineffective in a very important real world scenario. Instead, Europe's much smaller supply of emergency gasoline (both publicly and privately held) is proving far more effective.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
To put things in perspective, the IEA released 60 million barrels of oil and GW Bush authorized 30 million barrels to be released from our strategic reserves. Okay that's a start.
OPEC pumps out 30 million barrels per day.
I have a friend in the oil business, and the problem short-term is refining the crude oil we need for gasoline and other uses. Right now, the Federal Govt is struggling because its source of gasoline refining is without power due to Katrina. Expect gas to go to $4 per gallon if it is not already there.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Groan....I just spent $20 on 6 measley gallons of gas. I've also heard it's supposed to go up to $4 a gallon this weekend. !
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
I bought a truck that has horrible gas mileage, and I average about 11.1MPG, but I knew that going in so I couldn't complain because I tow and haul a lot of different stuff.
But the dang thing has a 37 gallon tank and the last time I filled up was about 3 weeks ago when gas was around $2.49. I never knew it before this vehicle, but gas pumps actually shut off automatically when you reach a certain dollar value. I have had pumps shut off at $50 and $75 even. This next fill is going to suck, big time. I might even have to reset the pump twice this next fill.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Ok, I feel much better now! (I have a Ford Focus.) Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I haven't driven my car in over 2 weeks. I've been walking to and from school everyday (which sucks in 105 degree weather) and I've been joining carpools to Walmart. I have Corolla and get excellent mileage, but with friends hoping to get gas to go home and help their family...I can't in good conscious use gas that I can do without.
Compared to the thousands walking out of NOLA on foot, I don't mind the inconvience.
Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
I just did the conversion calculations from litres/CAD to gallons/USD for Newfoundland's current prices... CAD$1.35/Litre works out to... drumroll please... USD$4.29/gallon... and I just got a message saying that it'll probably be going past $1.40 tomorrow! I am so glad that I don't own a car.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Alucard: also, that's 30 million gallons of petroleum, which isn't the big problem, the big problem is there are no refineries to refine the petroleum. Bush's gesture will have little effect besides symbolism, whereas the IEA release will reach the gasoline market within the next week or so.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, actually the SPR release will have SOME effect. Refineries are the ones who requested the release, thus, they will be using the oil released to make gas to make up for the interupted supply from the Gulf.
Also, I LOVE my Ford Focus. It takes a beating and keeps on ticking, and has some sweet freeway gas mileage.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I did say it would have little effect .
Posted by CORPSE-A-TRON (Member # 8560) on :
If we didn't see the need to find alternative fuel sources and develop them, we should now...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Bush's gesture will have little effect besides symbolism, whereas the IEA release will reach the gasoline market within the next week or so.
Symbolism will have a decent effect if it stops or reduces hoarding.
And you're not helping by pointing out the release won't increase gas supplies. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Eh, the rest of the world has been telling the US to start stockpiling refined products for a while now, I'm perfectly happy to blame our government for not paying attention and then getting a bloody nose politically.
And get a bloody nose it has, the Financial Times yesterday used this headline to explain the situation: "Europe's offer of petrol places Bush in quandary" (its a British paper, so petrol means gasoline, here). Also, the immediate need for making gasoline out of what petroleum there is has led to a reduction in the production of heating oil . . . such that experts think there may well be a shortage of heating oil in the winter. Coincidentally, the IEA also has stockpiles of heating oil, while we do not.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I know this doesn't deal with lack of gas, but it was interesting.
quote:Shell's method, which it calls "in situ conversion," is simplicity itself in concept but exquisitely ingenious in execution. Terry O'Connor, a vice president for external and regulatory affairs at Shell Exploration and Production, explained how it's done (and they have done it, in several test projects):
Drill shafts into the oil-bearing rock. Drop heaters down the shaft. Cook the rock until the hydrocarbons boil off, the lightest and most desirable first. Collect them.
Please note, you don't have to go looking for oil fields when you're brewing your own.
On one small test plot about 20 feet by 35 feet, on land Shell owns, they started heating the rock in early 2004. "Product" - about one-third natural gas, two-thirds light crude - began to appear in September 2004. They turned the heaters off about a month ago, after harvesting about 1,500 barrels of oil.
While we were trying to do the math, O'Connor told us the answers. Upwards of a million barrels an acre, a billion barrels a square mile. And the oil shale formation in the Green River Basin, most of which is in Colorado, covers more than a thousand square miles - the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world.
Wow.
They don't need subsidies; the process should be commercially feasible with world oil prices at $30 a barrel. The energy balance is favorable; under a conservative life-cycle analysis, it should yield 3.5 units of energy for every 1 unit used in production. The process recovers about 10 times as much oil as mining the rock and crushing and cooking it at the surface, and it's a more desirable grade. Reclamation is easier because the only thing that comes to the surface is the oil you want.
If the yield is consistent - which is hardly a given - then each square mile would yield about 49 days worth of U.S. oil consumption. The 1,000 square miles of the formation would yield about 134 years worth of consumption at the current rate. Again, this is dependent on the process scaling up well enough. And, of course, consumption will likely increase. *sigh*
But it's still potentially good news.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I'm down to less than half a tank, and starting to panic because I'm not sure how I'm going to get to work once I run out. I finally found a station that had gas yesterday, but they were only taking cash and all I had was a five. I paid $3.09. That station is out of gas now. I hear rumors about stations that have plenty of gas, but most of them are across the MS river from me, and I'm afraid if I drive all the way over there, I won't be able to find any. It's a pretty crappy situation all around. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
The Arco I stopped at for gas two weeks ago was $2.55 that day, and when I went past today was $2.78. we're driving to Fresno next week ( from Tacoma) and I'm getting worried about what the gas will cost.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
$3.10 here.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
The higher prices go, the longer the lines are here. And I don't know of any gas stations around here running out of gas. It defies whatever it was they taught me in economics. Demand increases as price increases.
Some big oil men are raking it in hand over fist due to this disaster.
Has anyone heard of the generous donations to hurricane relief that have been made by so many of the oil companies?
No?
Huh.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
There are still lines because people know that if they don't fill up today, prices will just be higher tomorrow. I just filled my tank cause we should be topping $3 by Wednesday with price jumps of 5 and 10 cents everyday. I'll be going home alot to help my family and I just can't afford $3+ per gallon.
The oil companies aren't making that much money. Its hard to stay competitive the per-barrel price so ridiculously high. My dad works for Shell Oil out of New Orleans, they're pretty much screwed for the next few months. He's got his employees crunching numbers with pens and papers.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Tante: no economic principles are being violated, I suspect. I predict that instead people are going to gas stations more often for less gas, trying to catch whatever they feel are the "downturns" in gas prices.
Also, you're confusing two things, Demand and Quantity Demanded. Demand never changes due to price, it is the curve that describes the relationship between price and quantity demanded. However, any other influence can lead to a change in demand. Even if the quantity demanded increased as the price increased in your area, this would be entirely economic given changes in demand. For instance, people may be hearing worse and worse predictions about gasoline each day and figuring they should fill up early and often, and get their long distance driving taken care of now. On a side note, this also explains stockpiling behavior.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Thanks for clarifying. Clearly, whatever they taught me in economics wasn't much. The entire field is as opaque to me as Tarot card readings.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I hadn't bought gas since before Katrina (I've been walking to work, and the kids had neither camp nor school) until last night. So I'd been sort of avoiding gas prices around here, except to occasionally notice the jumps in price at the station around the corner.
Which I assumed was one of the more expensive places. Imagine my shock last night when I discovered it was several cents cheaper ($2.95 v $2.98, $2.99, and up) than the "cheap" places around here.
I guess the good news is that a cheap place is just around the corner . . .
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
In Minnesota we've had a spike and it's already dropped down over the weekend, though not quite as low as it had been pre-hurricane. There's a gas station right across from my apartment building so it's easy to see the day to day change.
Thursday night when I got off work it unleaded was $3.199. Friday afternoon I filled up and it was $3.099. Saturday it was $2.999 and Sunday $2.799.
There was an article in the local paper explaining that the midwest gas prices respond quickly to the global market ups and downs because we don't have our own production and are situated such that our supply can come from any other North American region. Don't ask me to explain that, I'm just glad it's back under $3.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I paid $2.99 last night. Took me over $50 to fill my tank. Not good.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
We're at about $3.60 or so... fortunately we live very close to everything we need to do, and don't drive a gas-guzzler.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
A gas station in my area finally opened up this morning. I had to wait in line, but only paid $2.45. My car is a gas-guzzler, so instead of waiting 'til it's near empty like I usually do, I plan on filling up every chance I get (at least until gas becomes more readily available.)
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