She is very calm under most conditions, but has this "thing" about seeing cats out doors when she is inside. If she's outside and sees a cat, no big deal (she'll pull on the leash a little and whine, but not put up a huge fuss if you want to keep walking).
She grew up with indoor cats and usually just left them alone, but would occasionally want to carry them around. They don't like this much.
Nowadays when she visits houses with cats, she pretty much is okay, but will give chase infrequently. She wants to play. The cats usually aren't happy about it, but she never hurts them. If they hiss at her, she'll get "rough" but she's never actually done any damage to a cat.
If she's inside and sees a cat outside though...watch out!
She goes absolutely bonkers.
Last night, she broke a window trying to get at a stray who hangs out at the neighbor's house. We were able to get her locked away from the broken glass and have kept her out of that room since. But what a pain! Now I have to worry every time we leave that I should lock her up in her kennel box because she might do something stupid if she sees a cat.
Darn dog.
She's such a good dog in every other way. Great with kids. Loves people. Doesn't destroy things.
But this cat thing is a royal pain.
Any thoughts on how to break her of this?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Hmm.
I wonder if she does it if you are not home? (I am now imagining Bob filming the dog)
Is it cats only, or squirrels and other animals as well?
Did it happen since you moved?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I don't think she does it if we're not home.
It's mostly cats. Squirrels too, though. She did destroy a screen at Krabby_Patty & Poseable_Nurse's house when she saw a squirrel family outside.
She used to do this when the indoor cat (HER cat) would get outside. She'd go nuts if she saw him out there when she was inside. And once he got back inside, she'd be sure to scold him. It was hilarious...then. Now, it's just a pain.
So...it's not really a new thing, but it has gotten worse. Or at least more annoying. And coupled with the fact that the windows are lower down and she can put more force onto the glass than in the past, more dangerous as well.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Well, you could try some sort of aversive method, like spraying her if she does it. Or do the loud noise thing.
I will ask my friend, who has a dog with a squirrel issue, and see if he has any tips.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Put bars on the low windows. Is there something you can put on window sills to keep him back or at least make him think about his actions more?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Thanks!
We have a scat mat that I'm going to put in front of that particular window to keep her away. But there are lots of other windows and the cat is, of course, mobile...and taunting...
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
Would getting her a stuffed kitty help? I believe they have pet psychiatrists, though I don't know how easy it would be to find one in that part of Iowa.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Bob could just get another degree, and prescribe meds for Smokey.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
Smokey, I want you to take one of these pills three times a day with water. How about a toy cat that moves or meows?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
We could get her a real cat, but Dana's allergic.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
What does he do if he sees Dana out the window?
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
How about a stuffed one? She could carry it around and cuddle with it. Dou you think she'd go for that?
edited for spelling.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
I don't suppose there's any way to put curtains or some visual barrier over just the lower part of the windows so she can't see what's outside? That would probably be a bit complicated and maybe unreasonable, but it'd be better than having to put her in a crate. Poor crazy doggie.
How old is she? And is the stray really a stray? Maybe it could be escorted to a nice no-kill shelter.
However, it probably would be best to find a way to fix the behavior, especially since you said she's damaged other people's windows.
I don't know of a way to do that other than by immediate reactions - praise when she's good and discipline when she's bad. My family usually relied on expressing extreme disapproval through tone of voice rather than squirting or anything else physical with our dogs, which has worked pretty well, but ours never did anything like that. Posted by Smokey (Member # 6531) on :
First, let me just say how much I object to the term "nut case" even if used in a "friendly" tone of voice.
Secondly, it's not very nice to go discussing me on an open forum like this. I mean, do I talk about how long it takes you and Dana to wake up and how infrequent my walks are?
Or how many times my food or water bowl goes empty?
Huh? Do I?
Sheesh.
I just happen to not like cats being out-of-doors. It's unnatural. They should be in the house, playing. That's their function.
And I have no idea what you're talking about regarding squirrels. What's a squirrel? They look like cats to me.
As for my age, a lady doesn't answer such questions.
I also note that most of the people responding on this thread are addicted to a web-based bulletin board and are hardly in a position to be doling out advice on how to best live ones life. Especially on how to live a dog's life.
There's only one thing for a crazy dog. Straightjacket!
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Bob, I don't have any good suggestions for you, but I have a nut-case dog too. Mine has aggression toward other dogs (none toward people...just other dogs), and it got so bad that this past weekend, in one of the usual fights between the two dogs, the big one actually gave the little one a moderately deep gash on the chest (she got stitches and spent the night at the emergency vet). I'm really unsure about how to handle his behavior .
I like the idea of the stuffed cat. That, in combination with blocking off the bottom portion of the windows (shutters, maybe?) would help. In situations like that, the key thing I think most obedience trainers recommend is distraction.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Our dog goes crazy when she sees the neighbours cats in our yard.
She hasn't broken a window yet though.
*winces at the thought*
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:I don't suppose there's any way to put curtains or some visual barrier over just the lower part of the windows so she can't see what's outside?
What about that contact-paper like stuff that you can apply to your windows to make them opaque (or make them look like stained glass). They sell it at Home Depot, and some of it is kind of pretty.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Bob,
If your dog is missing her old friend, which sounds very possible, and you can't get a cat, here's a thought: 1- Put a catlike substitute outside 2- Let her actually get to the sub 3- When she approaches the sub, sound a loud alarm (pennies shaken in an empty, metal, coffee can makes a noise that dogs HATE)or use some other deterent that eminates from the cat.
It only took a few shakes of the coffee can to break our dog of barking at the door to get into the house. I'm hoping the same logic will work for your dog.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I wonder if you might submit your story to Trisha McConnell of Wisconsin Public Radio's Calling All Pets? She's a degreed zoologist and a well-trained whiz at animal behavior. You can email or call in -- every weekend, she fields queries from all over the country.
quote:Everyone loves their pets. But, let's face it, even man's best friend has a fault or two. To find out how to bring out the best in your pets, don't miss CALLING ALL PETS. Each week, zoologist Trisha McConnell and co-host Larry Meiller team up to talk with public radio listeners around the country about animals and their antics. You'll get helpful tips and solid advice about pet problems big and small, and you'll howl at Trisha and Larry's off-beat banter! CALLING ALL PETS is more great advice, more great entertainment, from Wisconsin Public Radio!
(Hey there, Smokey. People sure can be a pain. eh?)
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Thanks everyone!!!
Good ideas all!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Bob, isn't Smokey some sort of herding mix? (why am I thinking border collie?)
Either way. A dog is a dog is a dog. People don't like this, because they think of them as children friends etc. But, YOU are the pack leader. You have been allowing her to continue this behavior which is why she's still doing it.
The consequences of her behavior, especially because it has been going on for a while and has been demonstrably destructive need to be sudden and dramatic. You've got to make a *huge* negative impression she is going to remember, and thereafter consistency and re-enforcement is key. (Also if she's breaking windows you *have* to stop it or she will injure herself... you've got to make a "hot stove" impression just like with a child)
A 1-L plastic water bottle, with a few pebbles in it also works like the coffee can. But you shouldn't just rattle it. You should *throw* it at her. The first time, hard enough she feels it. It isn't going to cause any permanent damage. And it's going to surprise the heck out of her, in the middle of her kitty hysterics.
You should follow that up, with swooping in, before she has time to regain her bearings, flipping her hindlegs out from under her and pinning her down with your hands on her neck and flank. Hold her *firmly* there, until she stops struggling. (The first time it isn't going to be easy.) This is *exactly* what a mother dog would do to a puppy or what a canine pack leader would do to insuborination in the ranks. You know when they give, because you'll hear this extremely huffy sigh from them.
She'll be mad at you, and go and pout for a while, because you've spoiled her kitty fun. (She's become addicted to pussy .) I suspect she's intelligent enough that once is all it is going to take. However be ready to consistently reinforce, 1) first a stern NO 2) shake the bottle so it rattles 3) Throw it at her 4) swoop and pin.
She is not normally an ill-behaved dog but happy and well-adjusted, from everything I've heard. She's just gotten away with this for too long, and is manipulating you, which is why I reccomend this method. Even though there is a "suprise" element, it is all humane. Even in the pinned restraint you should do it gently and firmly. If she struggles, she is causing her own pain by fighting. The instant she submits to you as pack leader, the pain goes away.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Something else. Boundaries need to be established at every new location. She probably decided the rules are different because the location and situation changed. Why should a rule be universal after all? It's up to you to make her understand that they are.
Oh and even if she pouts for a while... she *will* forgive you. She's a dog after all, and you are her pack leader.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
And, reward. Once she stops with the hysterics, and you let her up, make sure there is a treat available. "Ok Smokey, it's all over, let's go get a cookie..." You are rewarding the submission, not the tantrum.
I'm not all about negative re-inforecment. However in a case like this you have to use the negative reinforcment to get the dangerous behavior stopped, before you can reward the 'good' behavior (which in this case is the absence of the bad behavior)
Also *definitely* set her up, so that you can be ready to give the corrections. Put tuna fish outside to attract every cat in the neigborhood.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Oh Megan, your situation sounds much more complex. I'm trying to think if I know any good dog trainers in Bloomington. With dog agression a lot of it is being there and "reading" the dog to see what is going on.
If you described your situation in more detail I could attempt to troubleshoot, but it's a lot more sticky of a situation.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Also, if I had my way, every dog owner would watch multiple Discovery Channel or National Geographic specials on wolfpacks in the wild. Watch how the wolves treat each other in a healthy well-adjusted wolfpack, and you'll learn how to speak the language of canis.
There's a show called the "Dog Whisperer" that I also highly reccommend.
(This show does amuse me, because all he's using are common sense, patience and a good understanding of pack dynamics, yet these people are so cluless they think he's revolutionary.)
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Point of order. I am the pack leader.
This is because when it comes to disciplining the dog, Bob is a total wimp. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
We've been lazy about the cat thing, because she does it when we're upstairs and she's downstairs and the crazy barking hasn't been quite annoying enough to get us off our comfy chairs to go deal with it. The window was a big wake-up call. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Also, a pack leader, canine or human, is allowed to change the rules. (I'm not talking about complex obedience training, I'm talking about day to day life.) Dogs do it all the time. The consistency is: whatever I say goes.
For example: 1)Dog is in the armchair. Dog is allowed on furniture in general. You don't care, because you are just passing through. 2) Dog is in armchair. You want to sit down and watch TV. Dog is in way. You tell Dog to move. Dog either gets out of chair or is forcibly evicted.
The pack rule is: what the leader says goes. The correllary is: if momma/pappa ain't happy ain't NOBODY happy.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Dana... that unfortunately makes it even more important for Bob to participate. Because you are *both* pack leaders. You wouldn't tell parents to raise their children like that, would you?
Even if one parent is the primary disciplinarian, the other person has to validate that discipline or it doesn't work. And dogs figure it out just as quick as kids, that they need to go ask daddy for the ice cream if mom won't give them any, or that they can run wild, if Mom's gone since Dad won't do anything. Dogs also lack the higher order decision making required for "Wait til your father/mother gets home" to work as a threat.
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I know. I was just poking Bob.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'm relieved. You have no idea how often that problem *does* exist with ill-behaved dogs. And how often it actually does cross over into child-rearing too.
An alternative solution, for nusiance barking is a bark collar. You can get ones that spray citronella, or once that apply a small electric shock. Both work on the principle of negative reinforcment and some people would say they are cruel. I don't believe they are, as the sensation is about equivalent to licking a 9V battery. Much less than a cattle fence. However, they are only a patch for a single behavioral issue, and don't actualy address the root cause.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(Though sometimes it's exactly the opposite.. you have well-behaved kids and the dog gets away with murder or the kids are rampageing and the dog is well behaved. Both generally have the same root cause unfortunately... the parent(s) give preferential treatment to the dog over the kids.)
But often you'll have rampaging dogs and the kids that show up to the obedience class with the parent who is supposed to be handling the dog, are just as wild as the dog.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Did Bob read this??
AJ
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Banna, did you ever read The Secret Life of Dogs? I thought it was fascinating.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Did it come out recently or has it been out for a while? I have the feeling I've read it but I don't remember.
(I just realized the cartoonist in question is one who did one of my all-time favorites - I sometimes use it for an overhead in presentations.)
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
AJ, yes I did see it and thank you VERY MUCH! We're waiting for the behavior to repeat, but of course we blocked off the room with the broken glass and that is where the cat is most frequently to be found.
Of course, I haven't seen the cat lately either. I wonder if it's been "rescued" by a local -- apparently lots of people have been feeding it.
Anyway, I really appreciate the pointers and I will try not to be such a wimp.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Oh Megan, your situation sounds much more complex. I'm trying to think if I know any good dog trainers in Bloomington. With dog agression a lot of it is being there and "reading" the dog to see what is going on.
If you described your situation in more detail I could attempt to troubleshoot, but it's a lot more sticky of a situation.
AJ
I wish I could, but with Max, no one thing sets him off.
Sometimes it's that he has a chew he wants to make sure she doesn't get, so that's a food-guarding type thing...but he doesn't do it with treats, or with his actual food. We can drop a treat between his feet, and if he knows it was meant for her, and his is coming, he won't even go for it.
More often, it's because he's overly excited about something. He's fundamentally a guard dog, and when he sees something outside the window (ANYTHING moving in the line of sight) he goes absolutely bananas--barking and carrying on and running the entire length of our house and back. If she happens to be in the way, he might (not always, but sometimes) go after her. We've worked a whole lot with getting him to calm down in those circumstances, but of course if we aren't there, we can't help. I'm going to try the pennies in a coffee can thing that LadyDove mentioned for the barking, but again...it just won't help if we aren't here.
We've separated them now, when we're out; he gets one room to himself, and she gets another. I have this gut feeling that it's tangled up dominance issues somehow, but I have no clue how to fix it. I'm taking him to a really awesome vet next week, and hopefully she'll either have some suggestions about handling it, or know a behaviorist who can help. It's gotten serious enough that I don't want to just go to a regular trainer (I know a really good one). I think it's a deeper problem than that. He's never actually hurt her before this, though, and when they play, they roughhouse like other dogs (though not since the "attack," as we're now referring to it in my house).
She's healing fine, physically and emotionally; she's such a sturdy little dog. Both dogs have been really...careful...of each other, which I think is ok, for now.
At the trainer's suggestion, we're doing the best we can to promote her as the dominant dog (she sleeps on the bed, she gets fed first, she gets treats first, etc., etc.). We got her first, and she was already sleeping on the bed when we got him (he's too big to sleep on the bed).
Heh...ok, this wandered a bit. Anyway, if you have any suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. If not, it's ok. I'm starting to wonder if it might not be a neurosis with him or something, because he's SO submissive to humans (to the point of the occasional submissive urination at the vet, for example). Maybe I should have him put on doggy anti-psychotics or something.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hmm. I'm going to disagree with your trainer. I suspect that your trainer exudes *alpha*. The good ones do. What that does, though is because they are in the presence of a different power balance, they act exactly the opposite of what they would do without the trainer around. Sort of I'm on my best behavior to the opposite extreme, kind of thing. (So your girl especially, because she's smart and more human-acclimated, acts very submissive around the trainer. I'm betting it's all an act.)
I suspect from what you describe at home, your girl actually already *is* the dominant dog. What he seems to be doing, is sort of "preventative agression". This sums up as: "I'm a wimp so I'm going to act all tough so you don't try anything with me." So it's actually motivated out of a fear-insecurity-I'm protecting myself complex.
In the wild extreme, it's why a wounded animal is more dangerous, they are trying to protect themselves from further harm.
A truly dominant dog, never goes to the extremes you are describing. They don't need to prove anything to anyone, so no posturing is necessary, except to keep the insolents in line, and most of the time, all that is required is a cool stare. (My Jake is a textbook example of this.)A deadly dog fight of alpha dogs is often very quiet. Not a lot of noise at all. Lower down in the pack it will be a noisy squabble, but not as serious.
She's probably looking at him going "You're an idiot, I'm not moving" or "I'm dominant so that bone is actually mine." But in the mean time he's gotten himself so worked up into the "dangerous situation" fight or flight mode, that he's basically backed himself into a corner, and goes into fight mode, the general default for carnivores. (Herbivores go into flight.)
The solution is a complex thing. And once again it's about you being dominant. You have to convince him that the situation, whatever silly thing it is, is under control, and *not* going to cause him harm. You need to be a calm, confident presence, and once again, I'd reccommed you physically restrain him from the behavior.
However I wouldn't go into "wrath of Alpha" mode that I reccommend with Bob. (Your result will be submissive urination if you do that.) You don't want to put him on his back or make him feel any more insecure. I would get down on his level and hold him still, even if you have to work to catch him... don't chase, grab him as he runs by. Wrap both arms around him if needs be, but let him continue to stand, until he stops struggling and calms down. Soothe, pet and reassure, but don't let him go until he's settled. Redirect him to a treat, toy or other activity.
I also have an extremely Omega dog with Ciara, who is a direct opposite extreme from Jake, I did this repeatedly with her, in many canine and human situations until she gained confidence and reassurance that no harm would come to her. The transformation is gradual, but possible.
You also have to keep an eye on your girl. I bet she's being slightly, well bitchy, to him at times, in ways you might not suspect. It's part of showing dominance, but she's probably not a 100% true alpha temperment, but somewhere middle of the pack. (A true alpha rarely taunts because it isn't necessary, a simple look will do.)
You have to remind her that you are still alpha to her and shee still has to maintain her own manners. I seriously wouldn't put either in a preferential sleeping position at this point. Either they both sleep with you or neither. It's probably exacerbating the situation, elevating her to quasi-alpha human and making him feel even more insecure. (You wouldn't show favoritism to that extreme if you had kids, because you'd end up with Harry Potter and Dudley Dursely, except Harry Potter would be more scarred for life because you aren't the evil aunt but his parents.)
She won't like the lowering of her status. And it's possible she'd provoke him because she's ticked. If there is a squabble at that they *both* get reprimanded, it doesn't matter that she's smaller, the behavior is not acceptable in your pack. It doesn't matter who started it. (And in general the little dogs start it a lot more often.)
AJ
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Wow...AJ, in case I haven't ever told you, you are absolutely amazing. I just want to hug you!
Honestly, it's like you've met my dogs.
quote:(So your girl especially, because she's smart and more human-acclimated, acts very submissive around the trainer. I'm betting it's all an act.)
Oh, with her, it's EXTRAORDINARILY possible; she's put on acts for US before--she once faked a limp to get sympathy. She's a border collie/beagle mix, with everything that implies.
quote:This sums up as: "I'm a wimp so I'm going to act all tough so you don't try anything with me." So it's actually motivated out of a fear-insecurity-I'm protecting myself complex.
This sounds exactly like Max. When he was a puppy (we got him at appr. 6 or 7 months; he was a stray), he would display fear at all sorts of things. I remember taking him to agility, and he would like lie down in fear of the equipment and quiver.
The getting down on his level thing is something that's been sort of working to cut short the barking behavior. I'll have Jim do it too, and hopefully between the two of us, it'll work out.
quote:You also have to keep an eye on your girl. I bet she's being slightly, well bitchy, to him at times, in ways you might not suspect. It's part of showing dominance, but she's probably not a 100% true alpha temperment, but somewhere middle of the pack. (A true alpha rarely taunts because it isn't necessary, a simple look will do.)
This is very interesting. I've actually seen her taunt him, and we try to stop her when she does that, but of course we won't catch everything.
As for changing sleeping situations...that's going to be a tough one, actually. She's ALWAYS slept on the bed with us, and at the moment, because of her wariness around him, it's her protective place at the moment. Do you think it would be ok to wait to change the sleeping situation until after she's completely healed? She's still got stitches, and I wouldn't want to risk her being on the floor with him, and then having him get upset and go after her.
I know we probably haven't been alpha enough over her. I'm just not sure of a good way to evict her from the place she's been sleeping for the last 4 years.
Thanks for the advice, by the way; you're wonderful! (I'll buy you a drink next time we get together )
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
(Incidentally, I forced Jim to sit down and read your post, making this his first Hatrack experience ever. He declined to make a screenname and post, but he says, "Yeah, those are good ideas; we'll try them." --which is wordy for him. )
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hmm. Yes there is the whole injury thing. Be gentle but wary. She will also milk it for everything it's worth as long as she can get away with it. You could put them in separate rooms with the door closed, and *neither* in the bedroom, but that would probably cause much canine angst and if they resort to howling it's really a pain in the butt to wait them out.
As a preliminary step. I would shut them in separate rooms when you are both away from the house. Dogproof and provide high quality enticing chew treats so they can console themselves, and not destroy the rooms. And because we need to emphasis canine egalatariansim in this case, alternate which gets shut in which room. That way neither develops a protective den mentality associated with a specific room. In other words she doesn't *always* get your bedroom if that's where you've been putting her. I'm betting there's plenty of room for him to sleep on the bed during the day when there aren't two humans and a canine already in it.
As far as the bed issue. Does he sleep in the bedroom with you and just on the floor? I would try to do this if at all possible. If so, get a really huge poofy dog pillow. (Tuesday Morning has them cheap frequently, or Value City... don't pay more than $25.)Or make your own giant pile of soft bedish stuff. Either way put one of your old quilts, blankets, old t-shirts whatever, but something with both of your scents on the floor. Also put several, disireable high quality chew treats there. Make it clear, the chews aren't allowed on the bed. Your girl may rapidly develop a preference for being on the floor even if it means dealing with him. Do it on a weekend because you'll probably be in for two nights of light sleeping, but if you get through two nights you are on the way.
It is ok to have different rules for different dogs. *IF* the pack order is well established. (See 'what I say goes' and 'if momma aint happy ain't nobody happy' above) Sometimes it just isn't practical as in, they don't both fit on the bed. Another suggestion would be a papazan or armchair that he might already like to snooze in, if you could squeeze it into the bedroom temporarily.
Also now that she *has* been hurt, she's also probably going into preemptive aggression mode somewhat too. I don't want you to use noise deterrents like Bob, because you don't want to freak out your boy. Unfortunately you'll have to come down harder on her than on him for similar offenses. With that beagle-border collie combo, she's more than tough enough mentally to take it, and will take advantage of you and eventually escalate the behavior if you don't come down hard on her now to stop it. (see Smokey above)
Invest in 5 or six flyswatters and have one in arm's reach in every room in the house. At the first sign of a taunt, curled lip, or full fledged growl. (you know when it changes from "play" to "serious") administer a swift flick to whatever portion of canine anatomy happens to be closest, though avoid eyes, ears and stitches. Once again, it isn't going to hurt her, just surprise her. This isn't the same degree of shock treatment as I'm reccommending for Smokey. I doubt things have progressed that far downhill.
She'll try to make you feel guilty and probably sulk (it's their favorite way to manipulate us), but a flick with a flyswatter is *not* a beating! I don't even say "NO!" I just clear my throat firmly in conjunction with the flick. With him if he tries anything, just clear your throat, or say a firm NO. He'll learn by watching what you do to her as well, and it will probably help clear up the bad behavior for both of them.
However, if they *do* actually get into it again you will neeed to be extremely drastic, and do more of a Smokey level response, for *both* of them. While dogs do occasionally tattle on each other the "but they started it" excuse doesn't hold any more true for fighting dogs than it does for fighting humans. Obviously if there's major damage you tend to that one but if you can head it off before it gets that bad they *both* get reprimanded severely, Hold by scruff of neck off the ground as a mother would carry a puppy while verbally scolding. (If the dog is too big, leave hind legs on ground or also pick up by loose fur on rump so that all four feet leave the ground and they are suspended in air.)
AJ
[ September 08, 2005, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:As a preliminary step. I would shut them in separate rooms when you are both away from the house. Dogproof and provide high quality enticing chew treats so they can console themselves, and not destroy the rooms. And because we need to emphasis canine egalatariansim in this case, alternate which gets shut in which room. That way neither develops a protective den mentality associated with a specific room.
We have been keeping them in separate rooms, but not alternating, because Annie has adopted the bed as her place to run to in the bedroom if he gets riled. We'll start switching them, though, and see what the results are.
quote: Does he sleep in the bedroom with you and just on the floor?
Yes, he does--stretched out on the floor next to Jim's side of the bed. We used to have a pillow down there for him, but he never slept on it. I'm definitely going to spend some time this weekend re-arranging the bedroom and making him a comfy space on the floor. Ideally, we'd like to have both of them on the bed, but he's just massive, so there's no way. When only one person is at home, he actually DOES sleep on the bed with her and whichever of us is there, and they're both fine with that. I think, with some major re-arranging, we MIGHT be able to fit a chair in the room for him, but I'm not sure we could get one big enough (he's really, really big). I don't see her going to the floor willingly at all, though, because she loooooves the soft bed (and any other soft surfaces she can go to), whereas he tends to sack out on the tile and linoleum in the house, given the choice. We have a massive doggy pillow that's in the living room; with some re-arranging, I might be able to get either that OR a chair in here, but not both. Hmm.
quote:Also now that she *has* been hurt, she's also probably going into preemptive aggression mode somewhat too.
I thought she might, when we first got back with her from being stitched up, but she's just been...normal. In fact, between posts, they actually played together, chasing each other around the dining room table. Then, they both sacked out on the bed with me, and after about 5 minutes, with no prompting, Max hopped off and stretched out on the floor (I think that's one reason he prefers the floor--he actually requires the room in order to lay on his side, which is how he sleeps). I'll watch her for taunting and otherwise bitchy behavior, and if I DO see her acting aggressively, we'll come down on her right away.
Thanks for the help; I definitely need to be more careful in how I treat them (and here I thought I was doing so well in helping to define their roles ).
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
If you can scold both with one suspended by the scruff in each hand, it's the most effective, however I'm taller so it might not work as well for you. (Though I'm a klutz so it doesn't require huge amounts of coordination either... and it doesn't matter if it hurts them a bit... it isn't supposed to be comfortable.) They are not allowed to look away from you. Looking away is a form of avoidance and avoidance isn't acceptable in this sort of case. Let them go off and sulk for a while, I bet the boy will try to make ammends first.
Something I was thinking about philsophically as well: Delayed punishment is a far more sophisticated concept than delayed gratification. Many animals instinctively store food for the winter, which is the beginning of delayed gratification. But in the wild, almost all infractions against the pack/social order have immediate negative consequences, usually involving pain.
Much as we view pain as inhumane, it is really one of mother nature's biggest teachers. You've got to have an effective deterrent against harm, to keep the animal alive. And it's got to be negative enough to imprint on the brain so that the animal can learn before major physical harm takes place, imprinted fear can sometimes take the place of pain, but it's probably pain that put the fear imprint there evolutionarily to begin with. The converse is that Food and Sex are nature's biggest primal rewards. These are what they understand. Dogs can think clearly, and are capable of logic to varying degrees, but understanding delayed negative consequences are one circuit they just don't seem to have.
And there are always degrees and responsiveness of individuals. You gauge the response based on the individual, same as kids. Even if you don't believe in spanking, you can't protect your kid from all pain, they will still end up scraping their knee at least once in their lives. And I've seen more than one set of parents, who didn't believe in spanking before the baby arived, come up with a child so intractable, that a swat on the behind is all that ever seems to get through. The trick with both dogs and kids is to judge when it is necessary for the greater good, and do it from love rather than rage.
Your boy is on the soft "time out" spectrum of discipline, your girl, my gut tells me, is a much tougher case.
AJ
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Banna, It has been out for years. A woman follows her dogs around, basically.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
It's also possible (and she's smart enough), that she realized there *are* consequences if she pushes him to far. I'd suspect as soon as she is physically recovered though she'll try to push that boundary at least once more.
AJ
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I would have to agree with Smokey on this one. Its all those @#$@#$@ cats fault. If they wouldn't tease him like that, he wouldn't go bonkers.
Well not much anyway.
Theaca--
quote:What does he do if he sees Dana out the window?
Dana--
quote:Point of order. I am the pack leader.
This is because when it comes to disciplining the dog, Bob is a total wimp.
The dog and Bob are different, right? This isn't some time of strange kinky thing you are discussing in code is it? I mean, if it is, I really don't want to know.
I'll wait for the web-site.
And finally, I have a great, gentle, quiet dog that hardly ever gets excited, unless a cat or small furry animal is nearby.
He then goes ballistic.
Once he catches the cat, he sucks on them. He puts the whole animal in his mouth, but doesn't bite. They are slimed.
I have rescued a few cats from this predicament.
They are never happy.
The dog, however, is completely satisfied.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Right...and as soon as she does, hopefully we can catch it right away. I should be able to get hold of them both by the scruff enough to get front legs off the ground in both (Max, mostly because the instant we start scolding he crouches and curls up). I'll make sure she gets an equal share of the scolding from now on; we've only been scolding him, because it's nearly always him that starts it, and then does his best to get over her and pin her down (which is what we assumed happen during the fight where she got hurt).
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
ok then I think I borrowed the library quite a while back... why it's hazy.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Also, she *could* get out of the way while he's in his altered state of consiousness "INVADERS" mode. It isn't like she doesn't know he's coming. I bet she stays on purpose just to bug him.
AJ
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
That is not out the realm of possibility. This dog has, in the past, faked a limp when we were worrying over a small injury of Max's, picked a fight with him so she could steal my sandwich, and has figured out a tried-and-true method of getting Jim out of bed to let her out.
I love her to death because she's so smart, and she was an absolute blast to train, but she's definitely tricksy.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Bob, BannaOj's suggestions are great but they might not be enough to keep your dog safe when you are away.
In addition of her suggestions, you might want to try renting a shock collar for a week and setting up a fence near the windows so that she gets a little zap anytime she gets too close to the window. If she learns that going near the windows hurts, she is unlikely to jump through one when you are not at home.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'd actually go with the cheaper "bark collar" that I mentioned which can be found for about $60 at your local Walmart or Meijers. It sounds as if the bad behavior is accompanied by nusiance barking so it would do the trick. The batteries wear out sooner than a more expensive variety, but they normally get the point across. And you could by a dozen batteries before approaching the cost of the expensive ones. Most collars will allow one or two barks before they zap as well.
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Shock collars are completely un-effective on teh Smokey. She just doesn't care.
Shocks to her feet, on the other hand, are highly effective. Hence, the scat-mat.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Scat mat sounds good. What does she think of citronella spray? I've heard of it working in dogs you wouldn't expect it to. (I have a friend with Siberian Huskies who are notoriously resistant to shock collars that tried this, and had it work like a dream.) http://www.thepamperedpetmart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CNATDC&Category_Code=CAL&qts=google&qtk=bark (I have no idea of the reliability of this company) but it had a cool picture of it actually spraying.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
Hey Bob and dkw,
I can make sure your dog stops chasing cats. Just bring her over and introduce her to our cat. After our cat kicks her butt around the house a bit she'll be cured for life .
Speaking of cats... hey AJ, are you any good with cats, or just dogs?
(edited for spelling and to give Bob's and dkw's dog a sex change)
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Smokey doesn't chase cats. She just gets jealous when they're outside and she's not.
When we're on our morning walks and she sees a cat she doesn't bark at all.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Nope, never owned a cat in my life. I haven't spent the years researching feline communication and psychology like I have with dogs. I also suspect that pack/pride social structures vary more dramatically across the spectrum of the felis genus, than they do across the canis genus.
AJ
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Actually, from what I have learned, there is very little difference in the behavior of wild cats and domesticated cats.
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
Smokey, I want you to take one of these pills three times a day with water. How about a toy cat that moves or meows?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Especially on how to live a dog's life.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(I'll buy you a drink next time we get together ![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
.