I take AP English Literature and Composition. We've been looking at different promps used for past AP tests, and we've noticed that every single one has said that we have to choose a book of "literary merit." Someone asked exactly which books would have literary merit and how would we know what they were.
So my teacher answers by saying something along the lines of, "I'm sorry if you read science fiction or fantasy, but they don't have literary merit. Harry Potter, Tolkien, Stephen King; they are certainly fun reads, but they have no literary merit." That's not an exact quote, but its pretty darn close.
Once she said this, my respect for her completely disappeared. Quite frankly, if she can so quickly dismiss a book or author as having no literary merit just because of the genre, then she should not be teaching a class about literature. Not to say I'll slack off in her class or ignore her, however. I'm sure I can pick up some stuff about hwo to please AP graders and overanalyze the written word, but it will be a chore to come to her class, not a pleasure as my English classes have been for the past two years.
And it wasn't so much that she classified sci-fi and fantasy in general as having no literary merit, its almost expected, but that she singled out Tolkien himself. Its not that she's read the wrong books, but that she's just biased and ignorant...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Have you read the dialogue in Tolkien's works?
(and it's "prompts" not "promps")
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Yeah, epics and sagas never did anything for western literature. Literature and knowledge began in the Renaissance. Of course. How silly of me.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
If stilted dialog prevented a book from having merit, most of the classics would not be taught.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Argggg. Thats why my Highschool english classes angered me. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Ask her to explain just how something like Moby Dick or The Old Man and the Sea, or pick just about any Dickens novel -- which certainly have core elements that are fantastic somehow have achieved the lofty description of "literary merit."
I'm sure she'll say something about character development. At which point it'd be somewhat appropriate to point her toward OSC (for starters) and ask what she's read of him.
Philistine!
Just because it's a genre that is actually interesting to a wide audience of people of all ages...
Maybe you could leave a copy of Ender's Game in her desk someday...
Dope!
Oh well...work hard, get your "A" and remember to do it better when you're in charge.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I know, I was poking fun.
But I am much more of a fan of the movies made from Tolkien's books and not so much his books. The dialogue kills me.
One thing I remember from my AP Lit courses is reading James Joyce's short stories. They were wonderful. I loved them. Found out he wrote novels.
I was completely disappointed in them. Unlike his short stories, the novels were so hard to comprehend that they failed in telling the story.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
You should smoke and spit in class and then when she asks you, "What are you rebelling against?" you look her right in the eye and say "Whaddya got?" lol thatd be so cool lol
Sorry I just had to get that out of my system.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Do you feel better now?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
One of my AP English essays actually asked me to examine the use of place as metaphor in fiction. I brought up Tolkien's use of the Shire, Gondor, Mordor, and Lothlorien -- and compared those to the use of London and the Reservation in Huxley and the woods and the city in Hawthorne.
While Tolkien's themes are certainly more explicit, I don't think they're any weaker for that.
As I specifically referenced Lord of the Rings and Brave New World -- a fantasy novel and a sci-fi novel, respectively -- and got the highest possible score on the AP test, I'm pretty sure that the judges did not (at least at that time) use the same definition of "literary merit" that your teacher does.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Ask her how she feels about Marquez.
Ask her how magical realism differs from fantasy.
Ask her how she feels about Bradbury, Orwell, or Huxley.
Ask her why their work fails to be science fiction.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by mackillian: (and it's "prompts" not "promps")
Yeah, I know. Typo...
Anyway, my dad is actually ticked enough that he said we was going to write a letter. Whether he actually will or not is still up in the air (depends on whether it stays on his mind or if he forgets; you know).
I was planning on some point at just simply writing an essay for her, or something. Just simply arguing with her bfore/during/after class probably wouldn't accomplish much.
She's also one of those people whose opinions are fact. She'll "debate" with someone, certainly, but she won't actually be considering your points or anything; she'll just wait for your to finish so she can continue on explaining why she's right.
So...
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
quote:Originally posted by mackillian: Do you feel better now?
Sure, I feel great.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Some people believe that the Earth is flat.
Just because someone believes something doesn't mean it's true.
You should give her a pair of glasses that filter out yellow or red, and tell her that she has to wear them until you can read something sci-fi.
Although it looks like she's already color blind. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
This is very important in understanding where your teacher is coming from: Did she say why she considered those works to have no literary merit? Don't automatically think that she's discounting the works merely because they have fantastical elements. In order to argue against her point (Genre books have no literary merit) you have to know WHY she feels that way.
Dickens, Huxley, Orwell. . .meh. For my money, it doesn't get any more fantastic than Shakespeare.
quote:Once she said this, my respect for her completely disappeared. Quite frankly, if she can so quickly dismiss a book or author as having no literary merit just because of the genre, then she should not be teaching a class about literature.
Never let someone's prejudices stand in the way of your learning. Despite her prejudices, she may be a very competant teacher, and you'll regret it if you discount her entirely based on this remark alone. There is, after all, a lot more to literature than just genres. Recognize that her attitude (all that we've heard of it) is widely held. And then get over it, and try to learn from her.
All teachers have prejudices. Take what is true, and discard the dross.
[ September 07, 2005, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
FYI:
I was a grader for the AP exam in English/Literature two years ago, and when I was a high school teacher, I taught AP English.
Over a two week period, I read thousands of essaysno exaggeration. The best essays were written by students who obviously enjoyed the novels and wrote with some sense of passion and humor. The worst essays were those written about the tried (tired) and true topics--Hamlet, Joyce, Dickens, Hardy, etc. We called these styrofoam essays because they were so lifeless.
I read two essays on ENDER'S GAME, and both were excellent. We talked a lot at the end of every day, and no one even said that specific genres were anathema. In fact, there were many complaints about the lack of variety in the readings and the void of humor.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
She's behind the times. Do some research and show her some articles and books that critique and analyze sci-fi and fantasy. There's plenty out there. Lots of people, probably a lot smarter than her, have written on the genre. (You know... "scholarly" stuff.)
I have access to all the best databases at the library... let me know if you want a list of sources.
-Katarain
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Ask her about the Illiad or the Odyssey - if published today, both would be found in the "fantasy" section. And ask about A Midsummer Night's Dream - also fantasy.
Your teacher is on crack.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Wow. I'm getting flashbacks to high school. I had nearly the same arguments with my 11th and 12th grade AP English teachers. Over and over and over again. *sigh*
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:So
Ask her how she feels about Seamus Heaney's use of the word "So" in his translation of Beowulf. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Now I remember why I transfered out of honors English 11th grade and didn't take AP English 12th grade.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Ah, asker how Margaret Attwood's, or even Toni Morrisson's works measure up in her thinking (especially Atwood's). You could make a very good case that they are SciFi and Fantasy (at least in some part fit the definition based on content). I think she's just parrotting what she was taught, which makes her seem kinda... ill-informed.
That's just sad.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I was going to point out Morrison's work, but I'm not really well-versed in it enough to take a stand.
So, thanks, Olivet!
(Imagine the teacher's arguments-- "But Morrison's books are all about RACE! They're written by a woman! They deal with the REAL WORLD (tm) (C). )
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
[sarcasm]But those won't work either, because they're popular. Popular works, by definition, have no literary merit.[/sarcasm]
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: One of my AP English essays actually asked me to examine the use of place as metaphor in fiction. I brought up Tolkien's use of the Shire, Gondor, Mordor, and Lothlorien -- and compared those to the use of London and the Reservation in Huxley and the woods and the city in Hawthorne.
My high school AP English teachers said that you can't use Lord of the Rings anymore because it's been made into movies and become so commercialized. They said that the AP testers would just toss the essay out. Whether or not that's actually true is a different story, but it didn't effect me because I hadn't read them at the time and still haven't finished the series to this day (4 years later).
edit to add: not saying it doesn't have literary merit because it's popular, just that AP testers might not like it.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I completely disagree that Tolkien's dialogue is stilted. People who think it is have missed the point entirely. Rather, it is elevated, antiquated, lofty, dignified, jolly, down to earth, simple, clever, crass, brutal, malevolent, kindly, or sharp, according to the characters and situations in the story. It's not supposed to read like current popular fiction, or like people speak today because it's not about our current culture today.
When you read novels placed in a different setting, you have to reach out a bit, stretch your mind, and go live inside their situation instead of your own. Russian 19th century novels have samovars and maidservants and degrees of relationship are expressed by the forms of people's names used. British 18th c. novels have fox hunting protocol, issues of social class, and you can tell what class characters are by their manner of address. All novels have different sets of assumptions like this and you limit yourself severely if you only find our current vernacular accessible.
The very best novels aren't being written here and now, in fact. If you want to mainline the good stuff, you have to be willing to wander farther afield. Tolkien is definitely, unmistakably, certifiably, some of the good stuff. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: My high school AP English teachers said that you can't use Lord of the Rings anymore because it's been made into movies and become so commercialized.
*blink* Can you use Great Expectations, Sense and Sensibility, or Gunga Din? Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I wanted to read Ender's Game in my high school AP English class for one of the individual book choices we had to pick.
I was also told that it didn't have enough merit to be worthy of doing a report on. The teacher just doesn't have a respect for other genres.
Sci fi and fantasy is a setting, the genre doesn't define the worth of the novel. Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Apparently this teacher sees no worth in Jules Verne, Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley or Kafka. Or the aforementioned Huxley or Orwell. Or Bradbury or Heinlein (for 451 and Stranger).
My art teacher told me once that fantasy art wasn't art - so I proceeded to focus on that for the rest of the AP course, making sure all of my pieces had some fantastic element to them. I think, in retrospect, he wanted to challenge me to make it worth something, so I worked harder at it. Who knows.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Never let someone's prejudices stand in the way of your learning. Despite her prejudices, she may be a very competant teacher, and you'll regret it if you discount her entirely based on this remark alone. There is, after all, a lot more to literature than just genres. Recognize that her attitude (all that we've heard of it) is widely held. And then get over it, and try to learn from her.
All teachers have prejudices. Take what is true, and discard the dross.
I know I'm still going to do my Historical Pathways assignment as best I can, but I just can't help feeling a bit of frustration everytime she starts talking about books.
quote:She's behind the times. Do some research and show her some articles and books that critique and analyze sci-fi and fantasy. There's plenty out there. Lots of people, probably a lot smarter than her, have written on the genre. (You know... "scholarly" stuff.)
I have access to all the best databases at the library... let me know if you want a list of sources.
-Katarain
Would you, really? That'd be awesome! Obviously my opinion alone wouldn't do much to convince her of anything...
Neither would my dad's opinion. He pledged to actually write a letter when I told him about this (although for different reasons: he's ticked that she would presume to tell us what has literary merit at all).
So...
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
The only English class I ever took in college was Race, Gender, and Science Fiction. There's -tons- of critical analysis of science fiction out there (stuff on fantasy is a bit harder to come by, but not by much).
It was a great class, by the way, not the least because I'd already read more than half of the assigned novels.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Wow. This topic makes me feel really lucky. I was introduced to both Tolkein and OSC by my 8th grade lit teacher. Furthermore, Ender's game was added to the freshman summer reading list(but not till my senior year). On top of this, we had several other "popular" books, such as Runnaway Jury, either on our reading lists or in class. Heck, we even read a Dean Koontz book. Of course, we still had many of the "classic" works too. However, even those were usually ones that were interesting, or at least tolerable(except for the Scarlet Letter. Worst book I ever read). So I guess I just got lucky when it comes to school districts.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
College Literature Courses I have taken at a leading University:
The Ghost Story.
Epic Stories from Gilgamesh through Tolkien.
Detective Stories/Ancient Chinese vs Modern Western (This may have been a history course as well. China, not Poe, invented the detective story, about 4000 years ago.)
Fantasy Genre Literature:
Shakespeare: Macbeth (witchcraft), Hamlet (Ghosts), Mid-Summers Night Dream & The Tempest.
Hawthorne: Most of his stories.
All ancient epics: The Illiad/Oddesey/Gilgamesh/Aenid/Beowulf...
Sir Thomas Malory: Immorte De Arthur
we could go on for so long...
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
A major problem with high school english is that they (and by they I mean the English teachers I had) attempt to teach that people should read to appreciate "literary merit" rather than teaching how to actually enjoy books.
"Literary merit" is a reflection of a skill akin to juggling, only with words and symbols rather than balls and pins. Like juggling it is an entertaining skill, and those who do study or appreciate it can understand just how amazing it is to see a true master of writing at work. These fans of literature for the sake of being literary are a minority, though. I think for most people, "literary merit" is not an end in itself, but rather a sideshow. It is just a means to effectively communicate the story - with the story being the thing that is valued for itself.
This is why the method of focusing on "literary merit" as the standard of judging a book is so bad for high school english. Students who enjoy juggling words will appreciate it, but for the majority who do not, it will seem like a waste of their effort. They will ask "Why do I need to appreciate the literary prowess of James Joyce?" and the true answer will be "You don't." Students need to write, but nobody needs to study literary masters to learn to write decently enough. But they DO need to learn how to enjoy reading - how to pick up a book and expect to get something personally worthwhile and meaningful out of it. That is a skill every student will likely benefit from throughout their life.
Worse yet is when students take home the lesson that the only way to be a good book is for it to have "literary merit". It is NOT a good thing to have so "refined" taste that one cannot enjoy the majority of the good books out there. It is an unfortunate situation when someone cannot pick up The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter and is so distracted with "literary" faults that they fail to value the novels for what they are. This is not what our schools should be teaching.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Tell your AP teacher that Dickens was his era's answer to Stephen King. Seriously. Or to be more precise, 'serially'. (I crack myself up) Charles Dickens wrote many of his stories in serial form for magazines. He got paid by the word. It shows.
(I am not a fan of Dickens, but he seems to be one of the more revered 'classic writers', so he is useful in arguments like these. *smile*)
And mack, ITA with you in regards to Joyce. I never *loved* his short stories, but they were readable, *unlike* Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. When I came up against that book, I just. Couldn't. Read. It. It made me question my comprehension skills. Heh. Turns out, it wasn't me!
Stupid Joyce.
eta: In defense of AP English teachers (but not this particular one, necessarily), how to approach a novel or story's theme (and etc.) is one of the most valuable critical thinking skills that can be taught. In my opinion. Obviously, I have not yet learned that skill. My sentences are fragmenty and parenthesized like crazy. I blame Joyce! Haha.
Seriously, though, there's a whole new level to reading when you know about theme, subtext, foreshadowing, and literary analogy.
I have a theory that most speculative fiction writers (good ones) used to be AP English teachers. They tend to have subtext.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Wow, Tres...that makes twice. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
In contrast, my advanced English teacher way back when noticed I was getting ahead of the class reading so he gave me a copy of Tom Robbins' "Another Roadside Attraction."
While I was already an avid reader, this started my lifelong appreciation for Tom Robbins and got me interested in books that didn't have the rocket ship logo on the side. Today if he gave that book to a studewnt he'd be sued, disgraced, and fired.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Oh, did anyone mention C.S. Lewis? His "Screwtape Letters" is widely regarded as filled with whatchacallum, oh, yeah, "literary merit". (I'm getting grumpy about this subject, hehe) Not to mention, he was a contemporary and rival/friend of Tolkien's.
Ooh! Ooh! And Jonathan Swift wrote sci-fi/fantasy! So THERE!
eta: Ovid's Metamorphoses could be called fantasy (gods and goddesses turning into trees and whatnot). And it's diiiiirrrrrty! Shocked me at fifteen, I tell you! Hee!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: My high school AP English teachers said that you can't use Lord of the Rings anymore because it's been made into movies and become so commercialized.
*blink* Can you use Great Expectations, Sense and Sensibility, or Gunga Din?
I think the main thing about it was the hype. How many people my age have seen those movies? Probably a vastly smaller percentage than those who have seen LOTR and all their Extended Editions. Multiple times. I think it also might come down to something with having actually read the books as opposed to seen them in the movie theater when everyone else was.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I would choose Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis
quote:As Gregor Samsa awake one morning from a troubled dream, he found himself changed in his bed to some monstrous kind of vermin.
Or, in the translation I first read:
quote:Gregor awoke one morning to find he'd turned into a giant bug.
It's a metaphor... And it's a relatively short book. The standard highschool essay about it is 2x as long as the book is.
Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
Ginol,
Don't bother trying to convince the teacher. When you take the novels part of the test, you get to choose the works you want to write about. At that point, it's all about convincing the graders that you're a good writer.
By the way, the average read time for grading each essay was less than one minute. You won't get much time to convince your audience.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
Hmm. I was a TA in a senior-level college course in Fantasy Literature... syllabus here, for whatever it's worth.
And given Tolkien's credentials as an Oxford professor (with a particular focus in Anglo-Saxon literature), you'd think he'd be relatively non-controversial...
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I haven't read all the posts here, I stopped at the one where "she is on crack" (kudos to Foust), but I beg to differ from her opinion. Just because the book was not written by some old coot a long time ago during hard days does not mean the old coots of today cannot write well. Keep this away from OSC's eyes!!! Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Bob, I love differing translations. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: Oh well...work hard, get your "A" and remember to do it better when you're in charge.
Or, you could do what i did... get a "D" in the class and get a 5 on your AP test.... I thought it was funny... My mother disagreed...
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Bob, so you think it was a metaphor? I think he was an actual bug. Are you sure it's just a metaphor? I totally hold with those who favor actual bugdom.
I guess it's true that not just anyone would become a giant bug overnight. It takes a very special sort of person, I suppose. So the metaphorical aspects can have a similar weight when you take that into consideration.
What Kafka didn't say outright but only just hinted at a little was that finally finally finally things felt right.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Giant bugs are cooler than metaphors, so therefore it must have a literal interpretation. Can't argue with logic like that, can you?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I had a "choir" teacher (admittedly not at a mainstream HS) who was the director of a gospel choir. She made us listen to gospel (at a Jewish school!) because she's convinced it's the only music with any real merit. When we were supposed to learn a song, we had to learn it by listening to it only. She said that everyone learns it faster that way. When I said that I actually learn music faster by listening to it once while looking at sheet music or at least a set of lyrics, she said that that's not true, that I just thought I did but was actually using the lyrics as a crutch.
What can I say? Some teachers are idiots about certain things.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
kq, she must be the sort of person who would never turn into a giant bug. Poor soul.
I will admit that I did not catch the metaphor in Animal Farm when I read it. I thought it was a nice book about talking pigs.
Anyway, I think Kafka intended his book to be taken literally but that over the years people trying to get PhDs in literature have discovered this deeper "other" meaning. Just because the author wanted to write a cool book about a guy who turned into a bug and how that works for him, that doesn't mean that there wasn't some subconscious metaphor at work, scurrying into the crevices as he wrote.
So, really, it can operate at both levels. It's a great story about a guy who turned into a bug, and it's a deeply meaningful story -- literature with "true merit" about a guy who turned into a bug for a very good reason.
(is that 500 words yet?)
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I have an email ready to send you with 300 citations with the words "Science Fiction" either in the title, subject, summary, or elsewhere. I eliminated, however, any article that was in a journal with the words "Science Fiction" anywhere in the title. I figured that since Science Fiction journals only publish articles about Science Fiction, your teacher might say they're all just biased and pretending to have literary merit. So my results are NOT from those journals.
I'm only sending the first 300 citations from 1870, because I do have a job to do after all.
Also, these citations are from the MLA INTERNATIONAL BIBLIOGRAPHY. That's very respected among English teachers, and so it should be by her as well. We're talking the freakin' MLA!
Print the list out, lay it on her desk, and ask her if Science Fiction has no literary merit, why are these articles included in the MLA database, and what are all these people talking about?
Let me know where to send the email.
EDIT: Make that 184 citations. Gmail truncated the email because it was so long...and even though I can get to it, I've already done the editing so that it won't print on a million pages and I don't want to do it again...
[ September 08, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Katarain ]
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Just for the heck of it, I got a lot on Tolkien specifically, too.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
For those of you decrying all your past AP English experience, they're not all like that. I had an absolutely WONDERFUL AP English teacher in high school who would have absolutely seen literary merit in many of the things mentioned in the thread (Tolkein not the least).
Just to be a voice of dissent, you know.
Oh, and KQ, that woman was just ignorant. Music is one of those things that everyone and their brother and their dog thinks they understand, and discuss technical details that of course NO ONE ELSE really understands, so that they have the "inside track" on the newest music pedagogical tool. Honestly, music education, for all that I love it, has more than its fair share of crackpots and ignoramuses (because some people go into music because it's "easy." )
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
From my own experience, the only book which has had more influence on other writers is the Bible.
The sad thing is that most of the books which these teachers feel have "literary merit" are horrid things which suck the fun right out of reading. No wonder people don't want to read anymore!
I'll bet ya if they read "A Time to Kill" or "Ender's Game" or something like that in class, many more people would love reading. But how can James Joyce compete with TV and video games? (For that matter, how can it compete with watching paint dry? Bring on the whitewashing!)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Many HS and JrHS English classes do use Ender's Game in class. )
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
We didn't have AP English, we had IB English (it stands for "International Baccalaureate", and the only difference was that Universities outside the U.S. were more likely to accept the credits, back when I was a wee lassie ).
I think the lists of books were also a little more strict, or else the course of study per year (Junior year was American Literature, starting with the Transcendentalists, Senior year included more Brit Lit). In any case, at least one of my teachers had a Ph.D. (at least one... he had a guest fellowship at the University of Moscow one summer. Really interesting guy), but he wasn't a snob about any genre.
We studied Bradbury, and Huxley and stuff, right along with the Shakespeare. The olnly thing he was a snob about was movies. He scoffed at any movie that tried to be 'literary'. Paraphrasing Johnson, i's like a dog walking on its hind legs -- it is seldom done well, but one is surprised to see it done at all. I suppose that snobbery has rubbed off on me, as I have a tendency to loathe many motion pictures that are considered 'brilliant'.
But I digress. IB was cool. My teachers were cool. *waves* I'm done. Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I have an email ready to send you with 300 citations with the words "Science Fiction" either in the title, subject, summary, or elsewhere. I eliminated, however, any article that was in a journal with the words "Science Fiction" anywhere in the title. I figured that since Science Fiction journals only publish articles about Science Fiction, your teacher might say they're all just biased and pretending to have literary merit. So my results are NOT from those journals.
I'm only sending the first 300 citations from 1870, because I do have a job to do after all.
Also, these citations are from the MLA INTERNATIONAL BIBLIOGRAPHY. That's very respected among English teachers, and so it should be by her as well. We're talking the freakin' MLA!
Print the list out, lay it on her desk, and ask her if Science Fiction has no literary merit, why are these articles included in the MLA database, and what are all these people talking about?
Let me know where to send the email.
EDIT: Make that 184 citations. Gmail truncated the email because it was so long...and even though I can get to it, I've already done the editing so that it won't print on a million pages and I don't want to do it again...
Wow! You're my hero! You can send it to ginkasa AT hotmail DOT com.
I"m so excited! Thanks ^_^
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Bob: "kq, she must be the sort of person who would never turn into a giant bug. Poor soul." I hope what I said didn't sound snippy or anything. I think there are seriously two camps of criticism about this story, those who think he meant it literally and those who think it's only supposed to be a metaphor. I was just placing myself in the first camp, though my comments were meant to indicate that, like you said, it totally works on both levels. I love this story, and know it's about me, but I certainly don't think that's a good thing, necessarily, at all. Not at all. I hope I didn't sound like it was.
Bob: "I will admit that I did not catch the metaphor in Animal Farm when I read it. I thought it was a nice book about talking pigs." I read Animal Farm that way as well, mainly because I, like Tolkien, cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, preferring history, real or feigned, with all it's applicability, for in it lies the freedom of the reader. Allegory makes me feel led by the nose by the author, and it's an unpleasant experience. Usually I begin virulently to disagree, too, just from sheer contrariness.
So for me Animal Farm works as a book about animals and farms. As an allegory about communism it is annoying and facile to me, so I don't read it this way, even though that's how the author clearly meant it.
So anyway, for what it's worth, I think you had the right idea on your first reading.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Gregor Samsa turning into a 'bug' is not metaphor -- and it's very important to note the first translation. He turned into a vermin -- un Ungezeifer.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:as I have a tendency to loathe many motion pictures that are considered 'brilliant'.
How do you feel about plays?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Ginol_Enam:
Sent. 184 Sci-Fi articles and 120 Tolkien.
There were so many more... if I had time, I would have sent more.
And you're welcome. I like being a hero! Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Zalmoxis, everyone seems to act like Gregor was definitely a cockroach. Do you think there's more latitude in "un Ungezeifer" (and in the rest of the story) to consider that he might have been something else?
I'm glad to hear you agree with me that it was not just a metaphor. Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
A couple weeks ago, Making Light linked to an excellent blog post about speculative fiction and metaphor here.
"But really, zombies are not “supposed to be metaphors.” They’re supposed to be friggin’ zombies. They follow the Zombie Rules: they rise from death to eat the flesh of the living, they shuffle in slow pursuit (or should, anyway), and most important, they multiply exponentially. . . .They don’t just stand around “being metaphors” whose sole purpose is to represent things in the real world; they eat the real world."
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: Ginol_Enam:
Sent. 184 Sci-Fi articles and 120 Tolkien.
There were so many more... if I had time, I would have sent more.
And you're welcome. I like being a hero!
This is great! Awesome! I have a question, though...
How exactly do I read these to find the articles? Which part of it would I look for at the library? I know the "plan" was to just lay the list on her desk, but I think it'd be better if I could actually find some of these articles to show her along with the list...
So...
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Can you go to a university library? They pay for full-text access to many articles. You could do the same sort of search on their computers and print out some of the articles. There will probably be a librarian there to help you out, too.
Don't worry about not being a university student. They'll still let you in. They have community people all the time.
Some of the articles you could probably find free online, but that will be rare. Very rare. But in any case, if you go to a uni library, you won't have to pay anything.
Also, when you search, you'll be able to narrow your search--maybe for a specific book or author. See if they have the MLA Bibliography there. They probably will. But if they don't, they'll probably have something else just as good. Just ask the librarian for help.
Good luck! Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Don't worry about not being a university student. They'll still let you in. They have community people all the time.
This works much better at public unversities than private ones, generally speaking.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
My university is public and you have to have a library card or student card to get into the main library, but this is because it's downtown and you could live in there if you had half a mind to.
However, I do second the university library thing. In grade twelve I was highly encouraged by a fabulous teacher to use university libraries for research and not only was it brilliant for research, it also helped to partially know the ropes the next year. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Personally, I think you heard whatcha wanted to hear. Converting two separate thoughts, "I want you to read something with literary merit" and "And no Harry Potter, Tolkein, or StephanKing.", into what you said.
Most students are as lazy as they are allowed to be. They won't read anything different&new-to-themselves unless forced. Instead, they'll choose to report on a popular book-they've-already-read, on a popular-but-thus-far-unread book upon which a popular film-which-they've-already-seen was based, or on a popular-but-thus-far-unread book by a popular author-they've-already-read-for-fun.
So "no Harry Potter, Tolkein, or Stephan King" is nothing more than a guide-away-from the lazy currently-popular choices. And "literary merit" is meant only as a guide-toward classics and Nobel/Pulitzer/etc-caliber (though not necessarily nominated) work which otherwise would not be chosen by most students. In other words, your instructor wants his/her students to expand their horizons insteada opting for the "same ol' same ol' "
[ September 10, 2005, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:Dickens, Huxley, Orwell. . .meh. For my money, it doesn't get any more fantastic than Shakespeare
This was my thought too.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
aspectre- I believe that the teacher said that Science Fiction has no literary merit. When I was in AP English we were told to pick a book with literary merit and write an in-class essay on it. I choose Hermann Hesse's The Glass Bead Game, which is set in a futuristic society. When my teacher read my essay she called me up to her desk and told me that she didn't really think it was an appropriately "literary" book. I took great pleasure in looking innocent and stating that I was so sorry, but I'd just assumed that winning the Nobel Prize for Literature would make something literary.
So yea, it does happen that teachers just assume that anything with a fantastic or futuristic element is not literature without knowing anything else about it.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Yeah, I s'pose that Ginol_Enam running into that problem is possible, too. All I can say about that kind of "teacher" is I pity dat fool. Never ran across one myself.
[ September 10, 2005, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It's sad but many an English teacher I had in elementary and high school never read anything or knew who any good writers were. They were as familiar with literature as any student who had read the textbook, and that was as far as it went. Of the four elementary education majors I knew in college, all four chose their field because the coursework was extremely easy, unlike our hatrack teachers who all are very much better than the norm, in my experience.
Unfortunately, the prevailing situation can give students who read for fun the idea that their own wisdom and intelligence is superior to that of most adults, and can train them to be authorities unto themselves. Since most people aren't particularly wise or benevolent authorities over themselves, least of all the young, this can have unfortunate results. They end up having to learn everything the hard way, which is a great way to never forget the lesson, but causes an awful lot of unnecessary destruction, sorrow, and irreparable injury along the way.
Another way, I suppose, is for the children to have humility despite their superior intelligence, but I don't know anything about that option. Hopefully it works for some people. Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote: I took great pleasure in looking innocent and stating that I was so sorry, but I'd just assumed that winning the Nobel Prize for Literature would make something literary.
Edit: Oh, what was her reaction???
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I want to know, too! What did she say to that?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Something along the lines of, "Well, I guess it's ok this time, but watch out for that in the future."
The thing that possibly annoyed me most about her was that she was incapable of admitting she was wrong about anything. It was her first year teaching the class, so she was naturally wrong about some things, it's human; but she was so insecure that she wouldn't admit to it and move on.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I think Harry Potter has literary merit.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
In what way?
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Tatiana:
Cockroach is too defined, too part of the insect world.
The story is about a man who turns into a vermin with bug-like qualities -- feelers, a carpace, etc. Note that he maintains his human-like thought processes (for awhile) [and even desires?].
To say that he turned into a cockroach is too parlor-trick-like, too karma/reincarnation/got what he deserves-like, too science fiction-y.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Cool! I guess my over-literal brain made it too specific. I decided it had to be a real species, and the only vermin I know with many legs, feelers, and carapace are roaches. But, yes, he definitely is way too large (a cockroach that size would rapidly suffocate) and retains too much human thought and feelings. You're so right that it is much better when left ill-defined.
This makes me think I should actually read some literary criticism from time to time, instead of just the books themselves. The only times I've tried to read it, though, I get frustrated that the person missed the whole point about the book, and I end up putting it down in disgust.
Do you encounter this problem? How do you find the real insights that deepen your understanding of good books without having to wade through a lot of silliness?
Posted by Somnium (Member # 8482) on :
Oh god, English teachers and the "CANON" of literature is the most pathetic structure in our teaching system. The only reason many books remain in the "CANON" of literary works, is because they've been in there forever, and the main reason alot of amazingly well written and books of literary works that are more contemporary cannot get in until many years later if ever is because this "CANON" is decided on the majority of people who are average age of 45+, and generally as people get older they become much more conservative, and until the younger ones who think something of thier contemporaries is of literary worth become the old conservatives these things won't get in the "CANON".
Also, most english teachers are well, not willing to oppose what has been listed as being of literary worth. While, the majority of the English teachers at my grade schools, and now in myuniversity are quite liberal, the majority of them are quite conservative about the "CANON" and what is of literary value.
It is quite annoying.a
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Plenty of non-canonized works of literature get studied, written about, and are discussed by scholars. Only the ones that stand the test of time and whatever tests professors throw at them will actually make it into the canon. Sometimes stupid books pass the test--and sometimes great books don't.
But you're being impatient. There hasn't been enough time for our modern day sci-fi and fantasy books to make it into the canon. But there's a big difference between the canon and a book having literary merit.
I'm an English teacher (not currently teaching) and I don't care much for the Canon personally, but those are books I MUST know about. They're a basis...a good sampling of what has come before. It doesn't mean they're all stellar. Ask those professors if they actually LIKE all the books in the canon. If they do, they're either really weird or lying. But they're there for a reason.
There will be a day when Sci-Fi/Fantasy has a firm place in the canon. That day is not today.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I actually like a whole lot of the books in the canon, so I guess that makes me weird. There are some I don't care for, like Dickens, who just never has done it for me. But most of them I love and understand why they're there. I think maybe you have to read a lot of books, both those on the canon, in the penumbra of the canon, and off the canon, from lots of different eras, to begin to see why those are some of the best. Of course, as with everything, people will have their individual preferences, but there are none that are on the list that aren't books that many people have enjoyed for a lot of years.
For instance, everyone seemed to think Faulkner wasn't fun in school but you just have to get used to the way he tells a story, which is an awesome way to tell a story when you catch on to it. I guess to appreciate it you should read more than just "As I Lay Dying", though. You should read the Snopes trilogy and The Unvanquished, Go Down Moses, The Reivers (hilarious), Intruder in the Dust, and finally Light in August. Then you see that he is truly one of the great writers of all times, and you understand why anyone who wished to be educated should at least bear a passing acquaintence with his work.
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