In a previous thread people complained or applauded the Star Trek TNG episode Darmok. In that episode the Star Trek crew ran into a strange race that talked in metaphors. "Darmok and Jihlad at Tanagra" "Shaka when the walls fell" etc.
I don't want to get into the practicality of such a language.
I want us to make one.
Basically, the challenge is to take a common bit of communication and relay it as a metaphor.
example: Hello and welcome would be, "Patton at Bastogne"
Can you play the Darmok game, or does all of this leave you "Gilligan on the Isle". Create the metaphor. See if you will be "The Red Sox of 2004" or "Brown in the wake of Katrina".
I'll add some more later, or "McArthur leaving the Phillipines".
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Vizzini, when he drank from the goblet.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Spock, one eyebrow raised.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Bush, the day after Katrina.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Santa, his cheeks rosey.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think this is ::electing Bush in the first place::
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
Ben Franklin, when the lightning struck.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Archimedes, when he sat in the tub.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bush, his Axis evil.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I think this is ::electing Bush in the first place::
How about: Bush, after the recount stopped.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Hmmm, I read Kwea's metaphor as meaning "a big mistake". I guess that underscores a major drawback of a metaphorical language. It's really hard to come up with a multitude of metaphors that are widely recognizeable and mean the same things to a wide variety of people.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
So why don't we define them after we give them so we can build a language.
quote: "Patton at Bastogne"
"Ophelia to Hamlet in the hall, before her death"? "James Brown on stage".
"Cleopatra to Julius Ceasar near the Library of Alexandria"?
ie Stormship Troopers by Heinlien, "Sharon's Policy in Gaza"
ie Ender's Game by Card, "Lindbergh crossing the Altantic"
ie The Da Vinci Code, "The Professor on Gilligan's Island"
"Disneyworld Uncrowded".
"M*A*S*H on TV"
Dan Raven
TRANSLATION
quote: Hello,
How are you? I feel good.
Have you read any good books lately? (Cleopatra gave Julius Ceasar thousands of books from the Library of Alexandria as part of her seduction/bribe)
I've read Stormship Troopers by Heinlien. People either love it or hate it.
I've read Enders Game by OSC. It is a great literary achievement.
I've read The Davinci Code by Dan Brown. I know there was a pretence of science and fact there somewhere, but it got lost in the contrived plot and pure fantasy.
Have fun.
I'll see you later.
Dan Raven.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
Socrates glass raised.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Dan,
The beach shack on the shore.
(Translation: That was well-appreciated)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:So why don't we define them after we give them so we can build a language.
I'm not sure that's possible. You can "define" what a metaphor means in your language, but since it's a metaphor, it will mean different things to different people. Unless you force it to mean one thing, in which case it ceases to be a metaphor, and you are just creating new vocabulary words that are many times longer than the words we have now.
Ender, playing the game.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I don't see how such a language could ever result in true communication. Specifics could rarely be communicated, certainly not efficiently. Instead of using a single vocabulary word, you have to have a whole phrase for every concept. It is laughable that such a race could acheive the technology to build starships.
Bobit, when his wife was pissed.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
>.<
Of course, the argument could be made that all language is really metaphor. Words like "love" mean something different to each person that says and hears it.
Alvin Sr., sending his son out to apprentice.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Dawn: That was great!
I don't see this language as particularly practical either, but it was still a fun episode and by the end of it you know what a few of their metaphores mean.
I think if I had to speak such a language every day it would make me "Dean, his primary speech."
Pix
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Of course, the argument could be made that all language is really metaphor. Words like "love" mean something different to each person that says and hears it.
Well, you have picked one of the most un-definable words in the language and from that extrapolated "all language is really metaphor". I don't buy it.
quote:met·a·phor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fôr, -fr) n. 1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage” (Shakespeare). 2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: “Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven” (Neal Gabler).
When we say "car" as in, "I bought a car this weekend", it isn't metaphor at all in the first sense cited above, and is in the second sense only insofar as it is a word at all. If you're using the second sense, there is very little difference between the sentences: "All language is metaphor" and "All language is composed of words."
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Technical language is *not* metaphor. Each word has a very specific meaning. And without technical language, we cannot have technology.
And even if other words have "softer" definitions, the use of a single word is still far less time-consuming than a phrase.
Israel conquering the Middianites.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Well, you have picked one of the most un-definable words in the language and from that extrapolated "all language is really metaphor". I don't buy it.
Well, I did say that "the argument could be made". I didn't say I was making it.
I think that most language falls somewhere in the middle between precise technical language where each word has a specific, precise meaning and talking about love, a word that has so many meanings it is essentiall meaningless.
So while I don't think that what I said is absolutely true, I think there is truth to it, especially when talking about abstract concepts such as justice, truth, honor, good, evil, life, death, love, community, fairness, tolerance, progress, slavery, abuse, compassion, hope, worship, respect, etc..
Bobbit, falling asleep unsuspecting. Bobbit, seaching frantically in the field. Bottit, refusing to divorce afterward.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Clinton, not inhaling.
(trying to have it both ways. One group likes the fact you tried it, the other - if they buy it - likes that you didn't really "try" it.)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I think this is Frodo setting out on his journey and that it is unlikely Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France without ice skating judges at the Olympics (World. War. Two).
Having said that, although two missiles turning into a sperm whale and a bowl of petunias, it's not taking ponies to the South Pole (Chamberlain bargaining with Hitler) or Zephram Cochrane's ship in the real world. It's actually uncrowded Disneyland. At least the first part of Decarte's famous phrase.
New faces and places to Kaylee!
EDIT: You can all work this out for yourselves.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Teshi, that was the Qin Dynasty jade bowl at the Met.
(a rare thing of beauty, that is)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Roberto Bennini's Oscar Speech, Tante!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I think that the issue with this kind of speech is two things:
One, it becomes excessively long and convoluted. Instead of one word, we have to say several. In a real world situation these would get whittled down to mean a single word. Instead of Romeo and Juliet on the balcony, we might say "Romeo". "Romeo" would therefore become our word for love. So the language would shrink down anyway.
The other way of dealing with such a language would be to have so many metaphors that you can describe an entire action, such as "going to the shop and buying some milk and eggs" in the same amount or fewer words ("Little old lady or Saturdays"). Such a language would have to have billions of metaphors in order to exist properly.
It's fun though, thinking up other ways of expressing yourself rather than using straight forward words! They should do this in English classes to get people to think about what they mean and how to say it in the most effective way possible.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Calivn, weirding language.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
The problem with this language is that to say the metaphors, you have nouns, verbs, prepositions and so forth. It may be that they passed through the linguistic phase at which we are and moved on to a language composed entirely of movie quotes. I feel like I've entered that zone sometimes.
A more productive exercise is how you define the phrase "5 is right out."
Aw hell, forgot where/who I was logged in.
"mothertree, blowing her 2000th landmark"
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Calvin, playing ball.
GAME, people. It's a GAME.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Calvin playing not Ender playing, indeed.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Jarts (Lawn-Darts) in the circle. Data talking about humor. Jarts (Lawn Darts) in the eye.
(I tried to make a fun game. You folks take it much to seriously. Now it is to dangerous to play anymore.)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Hot coffee at McDonald's.
(Danger in everyday things.)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hey, I think it is Disneyland uncrowded as well as the theory of relativity!
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
The more I hear the news, the more I feel we are Adam, donning a fig leaf. I hope we can one day become Joshua, when the walls fell.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Spock, seeing an alien form of energy never before encountered. Einstein, watching trains, or phrenology?
(Fascinating. Promising idea, or dead end?)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
steven, trying to convince Hatrack to eat raw brains.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
Raphael Palmero and President Clinton, with fingers wagging.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by johnsonweed: Raphael Palmero and President Clinton, with fingers wagging.
Love it!
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Caesar, when he crossed the Rubicon.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The Swiss, discarding the quartz watch.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
The Hulk, with greenness spreading.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
Smeagol, with fish so juicy sweeeeeet!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
One thing I like about this is that some of the phrases hold a depth of meaning, a spectrum of innuendo and tone that could not be so easilly described by just a noun, verb, and adjective.
There is a difference of degree in these three:
"The poor in the land of plenty." "The poor in New Orleans" "The poor in New Orleans in the wake of Katrina."
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Caesar on "Bring Your Knife to Work Day"
(Perhaps I should have stayed home in bed...)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Homer when the beer ran out.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Aristotle running from the bath.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Indeed, I am Homer pushing Edison's chair.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
johnsonweed when the Angels win. Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Nathan with tights in hand.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Archimedes running from the bath?
James Cameron at the Oscars.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
johnsonweed when the Angels lose Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Ah yes, Halle Berry is accepting her award.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The problem with the systerm we're using here is that it doesn't really match the "Darmok" style language.
People here are coming up with references mostly to pop culture, and some to history that in many cases can mean half a dozen things.
In Darmok, all the references were to a prewritten mythology, and they were universally understood to only mean a certain thing.
For this to work, we'd have to pick a set of mythology, like Picard choosing Gilgamesh, and work out the meanings and use them.
So, to use Gilgamesh, to express sadness you might say: Gilgamesh, when Enkidu fell.
Rather than saying "Al Gore, when the race was over" which means to many things to too many people to have a clear definition.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The problem with the systerm we're using here is that it doesn't really match the "Darmok" style language.
Hey Lyr, way to be pedantic and ruin everyone's fun.
"Lyrhawn, quoting from the imaginary rule book" Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
In my official status as a Dork, I'm empowered to enforce all rules from imaginary Dork Sources. Such as this.
And my point is still valid. Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Summoner Geeks on the internet.
Posted by Mai (Member # 8604) on :
Pandora opening the box
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: In my official status as a Dork, I'm empowered to enforce all rules from imaginary Dork Sources.
Beware the Dork Side!
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Jabba, when the Rancor died.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
OJ at Pebble Beach, Searching for the Killer.
Galahad in the Seige Perilous
Lancelot and Guenevere at Joyous Guard
Mordred and Arthur when the serpent strikes.
Arthur and the Queens sailing to Avalon.
Excalibur returned to the lake.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
GAME, people. It's a GAME.
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)