I'm wondering specifically about the case of a novelist. Can they add passages, sentences, ideas, or plot twists (I wouldn't think so)? Can they subtract any of the above? Are they surgeons, trimming the fat and leaving behind a healthy narrative? If there's a dispute between the author and the editor, who has the final say? Do these duties vary with the amount of prestige an author has?
How much responsibility do they ultimately have? Does anyone have any idea?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's the beauty of it...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
The over/under on that quote was about ten. I knew I shoulda taken the under.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I know they have far less power and do far less than they used to, mainly because the publishing houses have cut their editing staff so severely. There's a wonderful book out there called "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers" (I think that's the right title) written by editors that tells you all the things you're expected to know and do for yourself now.
Used to be, a promising novel that needed editorial help would be taken on and the editor would work with the novelist. Now, it's not only got to be promising but technically strong or it pretty much gets rejected. They don't have the staff or the time to work with novelists like they used to. Especially a newbie sending in a manuscript. It better be perfect.
In my experience, I've had four short things published, only one was edited and it was because it was part of an anthology and the editor wanted it to have a similar structure to the other works in the anthology. The editing didn't change anything substantial, just re-ordered a few things and I was fine with all the changes.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
It's a complex calculus involving the power, capabilities and reputation of the editor, the writer, the publisher and the nature of the work being edited and the perceived market/audience for the work.
In other words:
All or none of the above.
In most cases, editors act as surgeons (because that's the problem that most novelists have). How much surgery they do varies.
Here's a rough idea of the range...
Copy edit Sentence-level edit + some continuity edit Substantial sentence-level rewrite Small developmental edits Major developmental edits Ghostwriting
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Maybe a more precise question would be, how much of a novel can an editor change without fundamentally altering the authorship?
Why would someone with the know-how and vision to be a good editor not just become a novelist? It's a less stable, but potentially much more lucrative career.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Some of us prefer editing to writing. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
OK, can't argue with that.
Can I ask why?
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
A lot.
----
Well you know how those who can't, teach? Those who can't, edit?
That's not entirely true, of course (or it's not true of many editor). And there have been very good editors who have written well-received fiction and non-fiction works.
Being an editor means a steady (albeit rather small) paycheck. Not a whole lot of authors get a whole lot of lucre.
Finally, they take different skills. I haven't edited a lot of fiction. But I find that I'm very good at two things:
1. Helping with structural and flow problems 2. Adding those final tweeks of wording, sentence combining/separating, etc. that really help spiff up a piece -- the polish.
I imagine that if I wanted to pursue such a career, I'd be a pretty good script doctor.
Now that doesn't mean I don't write my own stuff. Or that it's not good <grin>. But in general those are where my strengths as a writer/editor are. I'm not so good at doing the actual writing.
Perhaps, it's simply that I'm lazy.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I think I am a pretty good writer (maybe even very good), but I have more fun at the sentence level than the big-picture level. It gives me more satisfaction to jump into a new piece of work that may be good or bad but usually contains interesting ideas and then to tweak it, to perfect it, so that what once was interesting but raw is now readable and enjoyable.
It's like I've become a liaison between the writer and the audience, and I can think like both. It's an interesting place to be.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I agree.
It's also kind of sick if you think too much about it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I'm a decent editor, perhaps better than I am as a writer but I haven't the heart for it. Oh, if I know the person is truly looking for honest critique I can give it - I've critted for Olivet and for mackillian before and I knew they would smash my head in if I lied, so I gave them honest critique, but for people I didn't know as well, my "Oh I don't want to hurt their feelings or crush their dreams" emotional side would make it too hard for me.
I'm just not ruthless enough. Funny, though, I can take ruthless critique of my own stuff and it doesn't bother me, but I just care what my comments might make another person feel, so I have a hard time being completely honest, unless, as I said, it's for someone I know well enough.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
A lot of the editing process is political, too. Writers can be as prickly and eccentric as they want, I guess, but an editor has to be fairly congenial and good at working with the writer in a way that accomplishes the most good without ruffling too many feathers. There's a difference right there.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
How do you get into that?
Of those here who have worked/are working as editors, how'd you get started?
This is fascinating to me.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Well, those of us who are editors aren't editing fiction. That's pretty much impossible to break into, right out of college especially. Besides, I like my corporate editing job better than I would like the stress of editing fiction anyway.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
The key is to get a great internship and/or gets some decen freelance copyediting experience under your belt -- and for that check with your local paper. If you are willing to work nights Fri/Sat/Sun weekends, I can almost guarantee you that you'll be able to find a temp job with your local paper (assuming you live in a decently-sized media market).
Classes, a certificate or a degree in techinical and professional writing can help.
Volunteer with a non-profit. You won't make money, but almost all of them need people who can write and edit -- and who knows -- if they win a huge grant, maybe you'll be hired on as full-time staff.
If you really want to edit fiction...
Move to New York and play the cutthroat games of the NY publishing world. Not my cup of tea, but somebody has to do it.
Otherwise, try to get a job with the best local publishin house in the area, network like hell and hope you get lucky.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I was co-editor of my college newspaper. I started editing fiction for friends after I did some work for Slash the Berzerker and he went around telling everyone I was 'the best editor ever' (lol, he was really happy with what I did to his story). I soon discovered that I had no interest in editing something that didn't click with me on a story level, at least not for free.
Then I edited part of that Martial arts book, and reccommended they get a Ghostwriter, because their writer was basically transcribing lectures from a fellow who doesn't speak English natively. They asked if I could do it. I said that while I probably could, I had never done it before and I didn't want to.
After a few months of technical writing for pay and editing proposals and final reports (really dry stuff) I think I'm getting pretty good at the copyediting sort of thing.
Some of the smaller publishers don't even bother with any editing at all, if the book I acquired at DragonCon is any indication. The prose is horrible.
That is, it reads like something I could have written right out of college. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Um, What Zal and Brinestone said. Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
A big question would be what you mean when you say "editor." At my company (mid-sized academic and trade non-fiction), there's the acquisitions editor -- the person who reads the initial manuscript submission or proposal, decides whether or not they want to publish it, and suggests high-level structural changes -- and then there's the copyeditor and proofreader, who work on narrower issues. The copyeditor looks at consistency, sentence structure, maybe paragraph level changes, while the proofreader is pretty much just doing the final pass for grammar, spelling, and typos.
We contract out virtually all our copyediting and proofreading to freelancers; acquisitions editors are in-house. Getting regular work as a freelancer (regular enough to quit a day job) requires, as far as I can tell, good networking skills and a hell of a lot of luck, plus lots of patience when waiting for your paycheck.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Excellent points, ambyr.
I would say that it is possible to make a living as a freelance editor.
But it's very difficult because there are a lot of people out there who want to do it. It's like freelance writing in that regard.
Your best bet (unless you desperately want to become an acquisitions editor) is to sell out and join the corporate or non-profit world.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Edits.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Oh, yeah, and the mantra of editors. . .
"No one ever went into publishing for the money."
In-house editors get paid more regularly than freelancers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're getting paid much -more-.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
When I was in third grade, I read an article about a woman who edited kid/young adult books for a living. I decided that was the job for me. Getting paid for reading books was a dream come true.
Of course, now I'm an engineer. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:sell out and join the corporate or non-profit world. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
many of us who work or have worked in the corporate world don't consider what we do as "selling out." And many that work for non profits do it for reasons other than money.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
It's a strange way to phrase it, too, given that unless you're working for a university press, if you're in publishing you're probably at a corporation.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)