(jumping up and down excitedly) SO what'd you think? Huh? Huh? Huh? Quote your favorite parts, bitch about your least favorite, ask questions and all shall be answered. DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE YET!!!
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
This may come as a shock to many of you, but I loved this movie.
That is not to say I didn't have problems with it - I'm not sure any movie escapes my nitpicking. And, as usual, I'll bitch first.
I was confused watching Simon rescue River since we were told he hadn't seen her until Mal opened the box in the pilot episode, but I could excuse that with the knowledge that a) Whedon had to make this accessible to new viewers and this made things easier and b) Simon may have lied, although he's never shown a talent for it before. But I was very bothered by the fact that Simon saw River doing the funky ninja thing when all through the series he gave no clue that she had physical abilities such as that, and his knowledge of the safe word pissed me off. The series gave no indication that he knew he was bringing a dangerous person on board, but the movie implied that he did so consciously. While I still respect his reasons, that character lost a lot of ground with me. Had she ducked around a corner and done her Spider-Man move where Simon couldn't see her, he could have kept his ignorance and my respect and we the audience would still know she was ninja girl.
I think more scenes of Zoe and Wash were called for. New viewers didn't get the impact that we did, I don't think.
There was scenes shot of Inara teaching new Companions, and of one of her coworkers telling her of the rumors the students spread about her time in space with the "pirate." That so should have stayed in. Would have liked to have seen more Book as well.
There's a scene in the novelization right after the death where Zoe visibly pulls herself together and goes cold. The movie audience really could have used that.
Would have liked to have seen more exterior shots, especially at Inara's school and around the bar where River goes nuts. I think exterior shots in those locations would have helped remove the "TV show" appearance that some critics have complained about.
At the end, I really would have liked to have seen some idea of what the release of the video had on the rest of the 'Verse. Mal plays it, the Operative is changed, and then that's it. How about some scenes of people reacting, or even news reports they could watch from Serenity? Seemed kind of anticlimactic.
All that said...
I have never been so caught in a movie as this one. Every character was dead on. The oner shot through the ship was a homecoming for me. The bank robbery and subsequent rescue by Wash nicely showcased everybody and got us in the mood. I LOVED watching Simon hit Mal (about damn time). Jayne got the best lines, Mal and Inara's video conversation (and the crew's reaction) cracked me up, and River's battle was a particularly violent ballet. The reaver explanation and the reason for River's mental problems made perfect sense to me. Mr. Universe was a bit contrived, but what the heck. I knew there would be deaths (I got spoiled early on) but even knowing it was coming, I wasn't expecting to get so upset about it. I have to admit, it worked in that for the last fifteen minutes of the movie I was spellbound. For all I knew Joss was going to kill everybody and I had absolutely no happy Hollywood assurance that Everything Would Work Out. This doesn't happen in movies anymore, no one has the nerve. I cried when I read the damn novelization and got to that part, and then again at the funeral. With perfect timing, we see Simon and Kaylee get together, with River peeking in. I suspect that the audience's outburst of laughter was as much from catharsis as amusement And then, when Mal is at the helm and little dinosaurs are everywhere, I got all weepy again. He flicked the three switches, just like he should, and we were off.
I'll be seeing this at least twice this weekend with different people, and possibly more later on. Partly to build up ticket sales (I want a trilogy) but mostly to watch for all the details I couldn't focus on before.
Posted by calaban (Member # 2516) on :
Indeed, Serenity is phenominal. Nice review.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I saw a midnight showing last night and I loved it. I brought a friend who had never seen the show before, and he really liked it too. He said he didn't feel like he was missing out on what was going on in the movie by not knowing the show. I think that's a good sign for overall movie performance, because to do really well non-fans are going to have to go see it.
I agree with Chris's points about Simon in particular. When they pan from River in the chair to Simon as the alliance officer, it's a really cool scene but it doesn't make much sense with the rest of Simon's character. Simon was actually the only one I was a bit disappointed in overall, you couldn't see him as the "dandied-up city feller" we know from the show. Yes, he got gradually more assertive throughout the show but it seemed like a big leap from Objects in Space to how he was in the movie.
With the safe word thing Chris mentioned, there were a few lines about Simon not knowing why it was needed or what exactly River would be doing that would make someone use the safe word... But it still seems inconsistent with the show. I like show-Simon better than movie-Simon.
I absolutely loved Book's line about telling Mal about his past, "No, I don't." I was prepared to be quite upset if Book's past was tied in to the larger plot like he was an alliance agent and was observing River the whole time. I get tired of the "I could have done this at any time but I let you go through the motions" shadow-boxing, deus ex machina style plot twists common in fiction and it was nice to see Book as someone who just had a past he really did want to leave behind him.
I could blather on for hours here. Very cool movie.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
My god.
I'm in awe. I just saw Serenity.
I can't speak right now. I walked back in a daze. When my roommate asked how it was, I just smiled slightly and told him in a frighteningly soft voice: "It's perfect. Go see it."
When I left the movie, I went to the manager. I asked him for the cardboard poster of Serenity in two weeks or so.
I'm in awe.
When I can, I'll write more.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
WOW!
Just got back home from the movie. I CAN'T BELIEVE WASH DIED!!! AND Book! Now We'll never find out about who/what he really was.
To see how the Reavers were born...scary. That Pax drug...bringing together River's dream about everyone laying down to sleep and then dying.
I'm happy that I was right about the Reaver invasion. That was cool. "Somebody fire!"
I thought it odd how they said all the worlds were in ONE star system in the beginning. In the series they said there were 70 colonized worlds... could there possibly be 70 moons and planets in this solar system?
Ahh...what a great show. Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Ooo now I'm excited!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I am like a tightly strung wire. I shook through most of the movie, and that feeling is still with me of nervous energy and quivery feeling- you know when you can hardly sit still?
First of all, I loved it. I laughed, I gasped, and yes, I cried. It was a rollercoaster ride of emotions, back and forth between desperation and laughter.
Chris Bridges, you used the words "I am a leaf on the wind" to describe yourself when I said you were everywhere, and so when Wash said them, I was laughing. When he was killed it was twice as bad and I had a momentary flash of anger that you could use them so flippantly. It was that quick- laughter gone in a second to disbelief and anger. The whole movie was like that for me. Hence the nervous energy!
I wasn't sold on the beginning either. I seemed like a big jump both in Simon's character and what had been said before in Serenity (Episode 1).
However, as soon as we were back on the Ship, it fell back into the rythym of what I was used to and it worked. Faster paced, way more intense, but familiar. The scenes and the light were beautiful, as they always were.
Other than the first expository bits the story meshed near-perfectly for me. Nothing seemed contrived, and the ending, despite the deaths I would have longed to do without, was fulfilling and in many ways redeeming.
The only thing I regret is that there were no gentle moments. Nothing of Wash and Zoe together, nothing of the crew at the kitchen table just sharing a dinner. I understand that through most of this there wasn't much time either plot-wise or movie-wise to put it in, but I think it would have released the energy a bit. Yes, we had time to laugh, but we never had time to relax and fall in love with the characters. The horribleness was overwhelming- and perhaps it was meant to be- but I would have liked some respite and perhaps I would have left the theatre less headachy and shaky than I did!
Um... other than that and the fact I will never be able to watch any scenes with Wash or Book in again (especially Heart of Gold. Remember the scene when Zoe and Wash are discussing having a child? I'm teary eyed just thinking about it*)
... I loved it. It was horrible all the way through, but I loved it.
*My friend mentioned this to me in the theatre. I didn't think about it until then. She wants credit. (This one's for you, Moony )
[ September 30, 2005, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Um... other than that and the fact I will never be able to watch any scenes with Wash or Book in again (especially Heart of Gold. Remember the scene when Zoe and Wash are discussing having a child? I'm teary eyed just thinking about it)
Gods... you're right. Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
About the deaths: When I was at the midnight showing there didn't seem to be much crowd reaction to Book's death scene, maybe a low murmur of "awww" sounds. It was like we all pretty much knew that one was coming.
Wash on the other hand, well it was obviously more startlingly sudden, but there were very loud gasps and crying and I think I heard a few shouts of "Whatthe-!" The group to my right included some high school girls, and one of them was sobbing clear through the end credits.
That, I think, really made the standoff against the reavers scary for us. It tore away the usual "of course the main characters will be okay" sense you normally have and forced me to wonder if we were really in for a bloodbath. Very intense.
Teshi raises an interesting point though, on the Zoe and Wash scenes. Let me get some of the Serenity Two speculation going early: What if Zoe's pregnant?
--Enigmatic
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
The reviews of people who haven't seen the TV shows are somewhat revealing about how little of the characters we actually saw...
quote:Simon Tam (Sean Maher), who has some training as a doctor
quote:He's (Mal) so single-mindedly selfish and mercenary that his eventual slight change of heart may be too little, too late. When the film's over, you may remember him as a jerk -- an entertaining one, sure, and a cool character, but ultimately a creep.
He's right, though, this reviewer. Mal was very dark much of the time, and Simon was never a brilliant doctor. Neither showed their whole selves. I don't suppose there was much way around this, but it makes me sad that people didn't see Simon be brilliant, and they didn't see anything but Mal's darkness... although Joss Whedon and Nathan Fillon have talked about Mal being hollow inside, and I think that we just saw the mask come off.
EDIT: Enigmatic, that was my first wish. That Zoe be pregnant. I'm scared to think it in case there is no more Firefly but it's sort of the only thing I'm clinging to right now to make everything okay. I suppose I'm still in denial!
[ September 30, 2005, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
That was incredible. I couldn't believe it when Wash died. One of my favroite scenes was when Serenity comes out of the sky, they all laugh at him, then all the Reaver ships come out of nowhere and the smile instantly gets wiped off their face. That was great. And the "I'm a leaf in the wind. Watch how I soar." sounds kind of lame now that I think about it, but at the time it sounded so...intense. That was a cool line. My friends all thought that all of the characters were generic characters. I tried to argue with them but they all dismissed me as a fanboy.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Saw it again, finally with the right soundtrack and sharper effects (the one I saw was at a screening months ago) and I can say it gets better with repeated viewings.
Knowing ahead of time what Simon was going to do helped as I wasn't sitting there for ten minutes going "What the heck...?" and missing details. I still hate that now he knew all along she was trained for combat and psychic ability, I think this change was a disservice to the TV show.
I noticed more Wash/Zoe touchy-feely stuff this time, which helped for the ending. Last time I was so overwrought by Wash I couldn't remember any previous signs of their relationship in the movie.
I left the theater the same way I did last time - in a melancholy mood. The heroes won but at great cost, and they're still not out of the woods.
Missed one quibble about the ending, where the Operative hits Mal's nerve cluster but Mal shakes it off. How deus ex machina was that? No previous mention of such a thing. I felt cheated. Not much, because Mal was so cool afterwards, but still. Could have been skipped, or there could have been mention in Mal's service record (which the Operative read) about it, something so we didn't think Joss pulled this one out of his nethers.
Am I the only person who prefers Inara out of her makeup?
The loss of Book was bad, the loss of Wash was worse, but the damage done to Serenity itself broke my heart.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I have a few qusetions.
The spare part that Kaylee was playing with when she was listening to Jayne talking about the Reavers, was that the exact same mechanical part that was broken in "Out of Gas"?
I was browsing through the Serenity comic book at Borders right before the movie. River mentioned something about someon'e belly in one of her weird moments. Was that a reference to Zoe's possible pregnancy or was I just flipping too quickly?
Also, why did Mal need a shot from the doctor before the robbery? Did I miss something?
I have my doubts about Simon. I think he is far more sinister than we know.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah... I've been moody- teary, even- since I came out. I'm only just getting over it, and I'm having to work at it. It's weird that a story or the deaths of fictional characters can have such a lasting effect but that's the power of the writing, I suppose.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Am I the only person who prefers Inara out of her makeup?
Actually, I thought Inara looked terrible in the movie. The movie has a very metallic tint to it. Inara looks best in a earth tone type of lighting.
I also think the fight between the Operative and Mal was kind of cheesy. When the Operative shot Mal in the back, he could've just killed him instead of setting his phasers on "stun."
BTW, I really enjoyed the robo-wife. It was a nice nod to Buffy fans, I thought.
I didn't care for Mal's "are you with me" speech on Serenity. Angel's speech in that show's finale was much, much better.
[ September 30, 2005, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"Also, why did Mal need a shot from the doctor before the robbery? Did I miss something?"
When he saw Simon he said something like "Guess I need to get inocced before we land." So probably an inoculation against whatever fun new diseases the planet might offer, plus a quick way for us to see that Simon is a doctor (and move us through the ship).
"When the Operative shot Mal in the back..."
The Operative was big on men dying like men. He probably wanted to face Mal first and kill him from the front.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Ah, thanks Chris. Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
There were a couple of times that Mal could have just killed the Operative, too. When the incense/flash bomb goes off why not shoot the Operative in the head? He had no qualms about shooting him "unarmed" at the beginning of that fight. At the end when Mal shoots the gun out of his hand he's obviously not seriously injured but Mal jumps over to the beam thing and starts climbing away with his back turned. Didn't like it, but these are minor things: If everyone in a movie was completely pragmatic about killing antagonists, we'd be in for a short movie.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
"At the end when Mal shoots the gun out of his hand he's obviously not seriously injured but Mal jumps over to the beam thing and starts climbing away with his back turned."
I was rolling my eyes at that bit too.
One plausible explanation is that Mal already knew at that time that he could convince the Operative to call off his men. But then again, on the platform, Mal obviously tried to kill the Operative with a direct thrust of the sword.
As for the flash bomb, maybe the Operative's men were already approaching the room and Mal didn't have the time to kill him.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I thought Mal had tried to shoot him at the end -- he fired a couple times after the first one -- but the Operative fell behind some equipment and pushed himself farther out of sight, so Mal decided to go for the transmitter.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
my lastest scarf doubled in length. Movie made me knit too fast.
It was brilliant, but I wish I hadn't seen it now. Too much. And to see again and again, as I promised, I dread it.
Later, I will watch it and love it. Now, it's too much.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote: didn't have the time to kill him.
I never buy that excuse. It simply does not take that long to shoot an unconscious man in the head.
--Enigmatic (And there's yet another quote to keep me out of public office.)
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
Holy freaking crap, this movie was STUNNING. Gah. *is so very happy*
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I hope this movie does well. I'm afraid people are too fluff-headed to appreciate it and it won't do well and we won't have a sequel or another sequel and then nothing will ever happen with Inara and Mal and all will come to darkness.
Er.
Anyway, I liked it a lot except I turned into an utter basket case right before Wash died because I had been spoiled and I knew it was somewhere in the leaf in the wind scene. And I can see how it would be less good if I hadn't seen the show first. And I wanted more screen time for Simon and Kaylee and Inara and Shepherd Book.
But the stuff that was there, it was all stuff you'd been waiting for. Simon hitting Mal; River kicking some reaver ass; Simon finally being nice to Kaylee--I could go on forever. Let me just say that the final shot of River with the reavers, standing on top of the pile of bodies dripping blood, that was fantastic.
Jen
"I swallowed a bug"--favorite line. Maybe ever.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Just caught the 9:45 showing tonight. I'm...floored. I'd managaed to stay almost completely unspoiled, so I was on pins and needles the whole time. I laughed a lot of course, but I was horrified when Book died, when Wash died, and when Serenity got smashed up The movie was so very much darker than the show. Not to say it wasn't good--it was freakin' amazing, and I want to go see it again tomorrow. Just...wow. No book or movie has affected me like this since...um...ever, as far as I can recall.
P.S. I wore the brown suede frock coat I sewed myself, and looked damn spiffy I'll try to get some pictures of it soon.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
One of my favorite lines was "Screw this! I want to live!"
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
"Screw this! I want to live!" was PERFECT! Awesome. I agree with Chris about the points of the movie that bothered me. I will say that I was really very annoyed that when Wash died I didn't even feel it. It might have been the surprise of it but I think it was more that they made me ignore his character through the whole movie. There was no intamacy between him and Zoe, you know? The movie was lacking a lot of what made the show great, the interactions and dialogue between the crew. When Book died I LOST it. I was literally sobbing my heart out in the middle of the theatre and had to get out of my seat and go out the door for a few minutes. I was hysterical. Great death scene. I think I cared more about Book dying than Wash because 1. They didn't show him a ton so I still had "Book from the show" in my brain 2. because he did such an awesome job acting that scene and Wash was just dead quick and 3. because Mal was freaking out over it and Zoe just moved on too fast. I loved the movie though. I think it may not be the movie to see if you didn't watch Firefly first.
Did anyone else love River sniffing Inara's bed? HAHAHAhahaha!
Oh, BOOK!
[ October 01, 2005, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: Treason ]
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I know, that was awesome Porter.
It's so nice to finally have seen it. I'm in the melancholy state right now. I suspected that we might lose Wash because I knew something would happen that would be rather devastating. I knew that if he died that Joss would have him go while he was in the pilot's seat....and I was right. It was so sudden and awful though. I'm terribly sad that he won't be part of the crew any more.
I was a little surprised at how small River's role actually was. She kicked a$$ and had some great fight scenes, but her actual talking and interaction with the other characters? Not so much. I missed that. I'm really glad that we got some good Simon/River scenes though. "Am I talking to Miranda now?" I loved that.
I wanted to see more of Wash and Zoe too. I wonder if anyone that hadn't seen the show would even be able to tell that they're married in the movie. Do you think? I agree with Chris on that one. I love how she goes rather crazy during the Reaver fight though...kind of cathartic for her and the rest of us, we were so pissed off. That final battle was amazing. The flurry of activity when the Reaver gets Inara, Jayne gets shot, Kaylee is passing out and then...Simon. BAM! Jeez, that was tough. I'm glad River finally got moving, I think that took a little too long to happen...maybe because I was waiting for it.
I was annoyed by the cranky Mal/Simon scenes. I knew Mal would be darker and 'hollow', but the whole point of the series was to show that he kept Simon and River around because they came to be part of his crew. That was a regression for me. I am glad that they beefed Simon up a little (I loved the rescue scene at the beginning. I was perfectly willing to forget all about the way we thought it happened just because it was so cool and it seemed more realistic.) Whoever talked about Simon not showing his awesome Dr. skills...I agree with you. That bugged me. Simon says "I earn my keep" and we think "You do?" He never really does show it in this movie.
Biggest annoyance: Simon/Kaylee go straight to sex. I so so SO wanted to see some of the in between sweet stuff with them when it finally wasn't awkward. Dang it.
But alas, I cannot gripe. The movie was above and beyond the call. We were in a packed theater tonight, complete with cheering, clapping, crying and awesome energy. When Firefly broke through the cloud followed by that fleet of Reaver ships, I thought the place would come unglued. It was amazing. I can't wait to see it again. Tomorrow.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I had planned to see Serenity multiple times this weekend. I don't know if I can right now. I loved the movie. I will see it again. It is possibly the best movie I have ever seen. But I'm still grieving. And the worst part is, I can't really talk about it with the people around me. Those who aren't fans will think I'm nuts for grieving a fictional character. For those who might see the movie, but haven't, I sure can't say I'm sad about some beloved characters dying.
I wish we'd had a little more time at the end of the movie to grieve for Wash. With Book, at least, there was space to breathe before the action started up again. I understand that the crew had to get moving to avoid the Reavers after Wash was impaled. But there wasn't much after everything was done.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
By the way, my boyfriend found this and sent it to Myspace. He's cute- Her food is...
problematic. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
"Dear Buddha, I'd like a pony and a plastic rocket..."
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Inara didn't get a lot of screen time in this movie. But man, that look of comprehension and fear she had when she met the Operative was just amazing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Alright. Well. I'm still a bit in shock, but, after 2 hours of thought and time to process, here is what I've come up with:
You have to look at it from different levels. As someone whose favorite character is Wash, I hated it. But I also think killing Wash was stupid in pretty much every other level as well. His death serves zero purpose. It doesn't advance the plot, it doesn't even affect the characters in any meaningful way. Whedon spent the series working a perfectly good relationship between Zoe and Wash, but he ruined the baby possibilities, which would have made things hard, but that was a gauntlet he tossed down, and then just left there in “Heart of Gold.” Unless we actually have a pregnant Zoe in the next movie, but that will be a drag on the plot.
As far as plot points go, where this to be made into a trilogy, Whedon made his last movie first. You don’t kill the Emperor and redeem Vader at the end of the first movie. The ending was sloppy. It’s like Whedon realized he had to fit so much in, and then crammed in some sort of half-a**ed cliff hanger at the very end, which felt very cheap to me, especially after what we just witnessed.
Everything they could have done with him dying was not done. It was a pointless death, and then moving on. Quite frankly I feel like they dishonored everything that was built up around Wash during the show. And that was the moment when the movie, for me, went from being the best thing I’d seen a long time, to just another movie with flashy effects and cheap tricks. Because at that point, all Wash’s death was, was a cheap trick. Furthermore, for all the time Whedon spent toying with us on whether or not Wash was dead or what not, they could have used making his death scene, an ACTUAL DEATH SCENE, rather then: BANG. Dead. Move on!
Book dying was something I really expected, though I thought they would at least take a swing at answering some of the questions about his past. But, were I to make a guess now, I’d say that he used to be an Operative, but repented and found god in an attempt to erase his sins. But that can be covered at a later date, it was always left so open ended to begin with, and in many ways, beyond Book being morally righteous, I think he was designed so that we never really felt an extreme emotional attachment to him.
I think the spell that was cast by Whedon when he made Firefly is broken now for a lot of people. It certainly is for me, and not just because my favorite character died, for many other reasons that I’ll get to later as well. Card calling it the best sci-fi movie of all time is premature at best.
That having been said, there was a lot about this movie that was great. Up until Wash died, I would have easily called it the best movie of 2005, without question. The acting was spectacular, the dialogue wonderful, the characters intriguing and lovable. It captured much of the show and then magnified it a hundred times. I just wish it could have stayed that way until the end. I think Whedon has a problem with a beautiful think staying beautiful.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
"I really liked [Wash's fate]. I was a fan of it. Even when we did the show, I felt that Wash was a really good character to kill. In my head, I thought two seasons and then [Joss] should kill me. No one would expect it. I even mentioned it to Joss once, about Wash being a good sympathetic kill. As it works, where it is in the movie, I really like how it raises the stakes for everybody. We've lost two already and people are bleeding and shot and the captain is a mess. Wash's death helps with the feeling that all bets are off. I kind of also liked that it's not one of those deaths where I'm going, 'Go on without me! I'll hold 'em off for as long as possible. You save yourselves, I love you sweetheart.' Instead, it's 'Whoopee, I just landed the spaceship!' Dead. Joss has a talent for sticking large wooden things through people's hearts. [laughs]"
-- Alan Tudyk
Posted by calaban (Member # 2516) on :
In counter point Lyrhawn, as someone whos favorite character was also Wash, Death doesnt always serve a purpose, somtimes it happens. They were being chased by reavers, a devistatingly agressive foe who till this point has never left any survivors. They kill, and stopping the ship from doing anything else ment stopping its controller. The type of physical attack that killed wash was also used with great effect in the orbital battle. Battlefields have to skip death scenes in the intrest of preventing more death scenes. For instance Zoe was falling apart inside, but if she had fallen apart on the exterior more than she had they all would have died. I think that a death scene or even extensive forshadowing would have been too much of an indulgence on Whedons part. Combat happens and people die.
Also the character of the ship is the people inside, when Serenity chrashed it was lamentable but things can be rebuilt, As serenity was.
I didn't get the feeling from the series that Simon Tam had complete ignorance of Rivers state nor did I get the feeling that he was always honest. He was hoplessly out of his element, being alternately arrogant and cowed towards his fellow shipmates. Also as doctors go he didn't strike me as somone having a great deal of bed side manner. He was mistrustful of the type of people he was associating with and was less than inclined to be completely honest with them about himself or river. Simon Tam was not callously uncaring towards the crew, just more interested in the welfare of his sister. She was number one by a large margin.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by BerenOneHand: ...Mal didn't have the time to kill him.
Originally posted by Enigmatic: It simply does not take that long to shoot an unconscious man in the head.
Mal is a reflexive survivor, as implied from his survival of the War and, more tellingly, his unofficial battle promotions during the final combat. And more directly shown several times: eg kicking the dude trying to escape by hitching a ride (cuz it'd lessen his own crews' chances of survival), then shooting him (as an escape from the much worse alternative)
Any flash-bang that takes out an armored Operative -- even one near the explosion -- is gonna cause a concussion (or near) to anyone else in the room. So Mal is likely operating purely on his survival reflex evaluating:
1) Any BOOM is gonna cause the Operative's minions to immediately begin heading for the room. 2) An Operative isn't unique. Killing one won't prevent (the controlling members of) the Parliament from sending out another. Or even slow down their search for RiverTam to a meaningful degree. 3) Getting Inara out is more important than merely killing an Operative who isn't an immediate threat. 4) Mal (reflexively) assumes that Inara is also a bit dazed. And while Mal has seen her ability to think on her feet, he doesn't know whether she has the reflexes to do the right things after she's been knocked off her feet.
While Mal might have chosen a different course of action had he been alone, he wasn't. And when the choice is spending even as little as a fifth of a second* on "saving someone I love" vs killing a replaceable Operative who very well might already be dead, Mal's choice is easy when he has to assume that the Operative's soldiers are already pouring toward their position.
Besides, Mal doesn't seem to have any tendency to kill except when immediate survival depends upon it. And seems very troubled when he does kill. He doesn't even take pre-revenge by killing the Operative when Mal's own death seems inevitable at the successful completion of his mission.
* A fifth of a second is about the amount of time it takes for an Olympic-class sprinter to make the decision to leave the starting-blocks after hearing the start-gun then actuate his muscles into breaking contact with the starting-block sensors.
[ October 01, 2005, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by calaban (Member # 2516) on :
Oh yeah
I think Book was an Operative.
He knew immediately the trouble Mal was in when one came thier way.
What was it the bounty hunter said to Simon about Book? "That aint no sheapherd"
Immediately accepted onto the alliance ship for medical attention.
Operatives are almost religious about the alliance.
Doesnt completely add up to Book being one but I think it strongly points that direction.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Talked to Teres on the way to and from breakfast -- I'm sure we'll talk about something else, someday -- and she said she didn't think Mal would shoot the Operative in the head at the beginning because a) he doesn't do that sort of thing unless absolutely necessary (although then he doesn't hesitate) and b) at that point in the movie, he didn't know what the Operative was capable of. He dismissed Inara when she tried to warn him, he probably figured we slip by this guy and get lost and we're good.
Also, for the movie-goer, it wouldn't help to establish Mal as a cold-blooded killer that soon. Better to show him getting worked up enough to do it.
Here's a fun thing to watch for when you see the movie again. During the scene on Miranda when the camera is whipping around and around River and it shoots pasts Jayne, he's saying something like "all these people dying for no reason!" At the words "dying for no reason" the camera stops on Wash.
I'm sure that was totally accidental.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"I think Book was an Operative."
No, though the evidence points toward the Alliance being convinced that Shepherds as a whole advance the Alliance's agenda. And that certain Shepherds are or have been useful as tools.
Which doesn't mean that (the controlling core of the) Shepherds aren't playing a much deeper game. Part of which would be conning the Parliament into believing that all Shepherds are either harmless or helpful to the Alliance cause.
Consider the degree of trust it would have taken to have gotten sufficient information about and access to the "School"s security system to break RiverTam out.
[ October 01, 2005, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Hey, I don't think it was ever once mentioned in the movie what Inara was. No mention of Companions or what they are, nuthin'. The original intro scene for Inara went into it but that was cut, so the new viewer would have had no clue. Weird.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Not sure myself. But I do think that Mal asked Inara about "business" in a way that I felt put quotation marks around the word (or phrase, I can't recall the exact wording). And not being very pleased about even having to ask the question -- a question which would have been just normal from those less emotionally invested Inara -- let alone hearing her answer about "fees from clients". Even if I hadn't already known about Companions, I think I would have caught on to what Inara's business is by the emotional undercurrents of that scene, including the momentary faked-smile hesitance of Inara's response.
[ October 01, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: It was brilliant, but I wish I hadn't seen it now. Too much. And to see again and again, as I promised, I dread it.
Later, I will watch it and love it. Now, it's too much.
Yeah, this is in line with how I felt.
Now, I love Wash's character to bits, but I understand what his death did. It took away the belief that they were all (save Book) going get through this alive. From that moment on I had no idea even whether Mal was going to succeed... or whether he would succeed and many of the others would die... or anything!
I think it was insufferably mean of Joss Whedon to kill Wash like that but I understand why he did it because the impact was collosal.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Here's something I just posted at the movie site. A lot of duplication from above, but maybe better presented:
Before I begin, let me stress that a) I love this movie, b) it's Joss' baby and vision, and c) I love this movie, exactly as it is. I don't want to seem like I'm nitpicking (although I am) or that I'm criticizing (which I'm not), but were I the script doctor on "Serenity," here's what I would have suggested.
Love the opening, great way to shove in exposition without getting too boring. And I can live with Simon doing the rescuing, despite show canon, as a way to simplify things for the new viewers. But I hate that Simon knew specifics about River's condition, and that he saw her do the ninja thing. It ruined a great deal of his actions in the show for me, made him retroactively conniving and manipulative rather than earnest and naive. Suggested change: if the psychic part must be mentioned for the new viewers, fine. But she should have done the ninja ceiling move out of Simon's view, around the corner or something. It's important for us to see that Simon had no clue as to her abilities or else him waiting all this time to use the deus ex machina safe word makes no sense.
While Zoe and Wash are snuggling or touching in every scene they're together, their relationship still isn't established. Are they married? New lovers? What? We know, of course, but new viewers might not get the impact. Suggested change: right after Mal and Zoe have their scene in the hallway ("Maybe that's why we lost.") and Wash comforts her, give him one line of dialogue: "Still want to bring a baby into this?" She looks at him, maybe smiles. Now we know several things. They're together, probably married. They're committed to each other for the long term (which, of course, ultimately makes the ending worse). And it raises some interesting thoughts for the sequel.
Scenes of Inara teaching at her school were shot but removed for pacing. Problem, I don't think it was ever mentioned in the movie what, exactly, she did for a living. The relationship between her and Mal wasn't very clear. And we didn't get to see enough of her being unshakeable to make her stammering during the call more of a giveaway. Suggested change: On the movie we go from Book talking about Operatives striking at weaknesses to Inara welcoming the Operative. I'd add a few minutes there. Let Book's voiceover lead to Inara teaching students, with an obvious erotic slant to their lesson. One could ask "Is it true you had an affair with a pirate?" to show her handling her students with calm and elegant aplomb. Then the Operative arrives, and we see her face change...
There were general complaints about the movie being too TV-like, probably because there were a lot of all-interior shots. Suggested change: instead of Simon and River's scene on the landing dock ("It's not safe. For them") let them have that dialogue while moving through the city. Me, I was wondering how Simon let her get out of his sight to go to the bar, let's see it and see more of the city.
More scenes were shot with the crew and Book. We needed them, I think.
Wash's death: Sorry, folks, I'd leave it just as is. I have never been so affected by a movie, so completely uncertain as to what would happen next, as I was from that point onwards. I can't give that up, much as I'd like to.
However, while it's obvious upon repeated viewings that Zoe feels very deeply about Wash's death, and either tries to commit suicide-by-Reaver or just gets lost up in vengeance. But the first time I saw it, I thought she was just being all military (untill she snapped). Suggested change: Same scene, exactly. But add one tear on her face.
I hate the nerve cluster thing. Mal's ability to shake it off seemed too damn convenient, and never once hinted at previously. Suggested change: Add visible mention of Mal's injuries to his service record when the Operative reads it, so he should have known. Or let the Operative mention, as a compliment, during the final battle that he's never seen anyone absorb so much punishment. Or give the Operative a line at the beginning, to the doctor he's just nerve-punched: "Don't try to move now, Doctor. You'd likely shatter your spine." Then when Mal gets punched, show us the anguish and pain as he moves anyway even when he shouldn't have been able to. Make it a heroic effort, not just a convenient medical anomaly.
At the end we had no idea of the impact of the holo's transmission on the rest of the 'Verse, just the Operative's comments on it. Mal's transmission seemed almost anti-climactic. Suggested change: When he transmits, as we see the Operative watching it, switch back to the other locations we've already seen in the movie and show other people, lots of people, seeing it and reacting. We don't know, until the Operative tells Mal, that it even got broadcast outside of that room. I needed a payoff: Mal succeeded, look what's happening.
Probably more as I go back and watch it more times, as I will. And again, this is just my armchair opinion. This was such a damn good movie, I feel almost sacriligious in even making suggestions at all. Almost.
[ October 01, 2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Frankly, I am contemptuous of books/stories/scripts which assume I need to be led by the nose. Except for the "baby" thing, script changes would have added nothing for me. Several would have detracted via "you need to have the obvious explained."
And I went to see the movie naive about Firefly beyond very very quick scans of what has been written in this forum, and a more careful reading of the single thread in which I participated before seeing the movie.
I probably saw a total of around 6hours* of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly ; mostly in bits&pieces while doing something else in friends' homes. Admittedly I liked what I saw. In other words, I was not a Whedon fan. I am a very strong admirer of Whedon now : Serenity needs no fixes.
* Excluding extraordinary events like 9/11 or the IraqInvasion or the NewOrleans hurricane aftermath, I probably watch around 50hours of television per year; certainly less than 100hours. Not enough to justify the cost of the cable/satellite feed which I would have needed to see those shows without constant interuptions by ghosting and white-noise, when the signals aren't completely white-noised over.
[ October 01, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I hate that I saw this movie with Ben and Ron (Lindsay was there, too, but she's cool). There were some obvious fans behinds us, and Ron and Ben joked about being in front of the "fanboy Brigade".
Plus, Ben watched maybe one episode of Firefly and was "Meh". He doesn't like Joss Whedon, which is fine, I guess. His comment when the movie was over was that it was "Explosion-y".
I could hardly speak (partly because I'm very very sick with a head and chest cold, and partly because I was crushed by Wash's death).
I just wanted to go home and sleep, and I told my husband I wasn't going to talk to him about the movie. I knew he'd only make me angry.
I wish I could have made it to Dayton, and seen it with people who really understand. But I'd have been miserable and infected everyone.
I love Joss Whedon -- the brilliant effing basttard-- but I hate him, too. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Chris... did you ever consider going into the movie business?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Also? More guitar twangs. Not enough, in my opinion. Would have liked more of the show's type of music at the end as they sail off into space. As it was I was too melancholy when I left the theater. The mournful, instrumental theme music at the very end wasn't enough to change my mood.
Serenity needs no fixes. And that's fine. This was what I thought about it, I don't pretend my changes would improve the movie for anyone else.
Chris... did you ever consider going into the movie business? Nah, too many stupid people. I wouldn't mind being a script doctor, or even just one of the people that Joss runs his scripts past Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Seriously, nobody loved the way River sniffed Inara's bed? That killed me. Somebody be with me on this one!
Also Chris : "Not enough, in my opinion. Would have liked more of the show's type of music at the end as they sail off into space."
I wanted the whole dang song at the beginning but I would have setteled for it at the end. Why didn't they put the song in there? Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
They did. An instrumental version, at the very end of the credits.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
They kind of did establish Inara when Mal was looking at the picture of her: "You entertained clients here! In this very bed!" I thought both Inara and Kaylee got more time than I was expecting. But then, I also felt like River didn't get enough time.
Was I the only one that was almost as depressed about the damage to Serenity as I was about Wash's death? Well not really. Maybe at that moment. I didn't really have time to feel anything about Wash's death until after the movie. Then I got really depressed. I thought about it for quite a while, it really stuck with me and I really felt for Zoe...and for us. Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
I know that Chris, I wanted the words! Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
greatjust great Narnia and Treason confirmed my suspicion that things were happening so fast that I wasn't picking up everything, at least not on the conscious level. And now I'll hafta force myself to go see the movie again.
[ October 01, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
I want to get the movie novelization. Is it good and is it out in book stores yet?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Yes, it's good. Much more than just a script-with-descriptions, the way most novelizations are. Yes, it came out a few weeks ago. It's by Keith R. A. DeCandido.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Mr. Universe. Some mention of who the heck he is and how they know him would have helped. The novelization beat the movie in this regard, I think. Suggested change: Change Wash's line from "I think we need to talk to Mr. Universe" to "I know this guy that can help" or something similar.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I don't know, Mr. Universe worked fine for me in the same way Badger did when he was first introduced. They know him from previous murky dealings in the past. I mean, the only way it didn't work for people who had seen the show is that we'd never heard of him before.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
I don't know -- I think I'm with Chris on that one. Badger was always an easy character to grasp, but Mr. Universe doesn't really have any famaliar analogue for comparison. What he does isn't hard to get, but I think his character needed a bit more exposition.
I have to say I'm still reeling from the whole movie. I cried through much of the ending both for Wash and for Serenity. And then I cried on the way home for Wash -- Serenity was repaired. I still can't get over Wash. I'm shaken as I think how this is going to change my experience with my DVD's of the series. I don't think I would change it, but it's hard to express how much it hurts. Just thinking about it still breaks me up. I can't remember the last time I laughed so much and cried so much in a movie. I'm looking forward to seeing it again today, but it's going to be hard.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Like everyone else, I loved this movie too. But part of the fun of these threads is airing what bugged you. So, what really stood out for me:
What kind of crappy ass scientists realease something into the environment that's going to make 1/10th of the population go absolutely ape. Not a little ape, HUGELY ape. Nevermind make everyone just decide to die. Didn't they have, y'know, *scientists* on this team? And, considering 1/10th of 30 million or so people became reavers, everyone is looking pretty relaxed. Shouldn't those people have all been hacked and shredded and so on and so forth? They wouldn't have tried to run, sure, but they'd still 'a been eaten.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I really, really wish I'd waited to see this movie. That sounds ridiculous, I know. I promised my new roommate I'd go with her when she comes back from being away this weekend, but she still needs to see the last 6 episodes of Firefly first and I just couldn't wait. So I went myself, because I didn't want to miss the exciting first weekend with packed theatres and energetic crowds.
There were eight of us in the theatre. I was the only one there early. One person left after the first ten minutes and didn't come back. There were no audience reactions to *anything* at all, except a trickle of laughter when Jayne said "Well...I might." [survive] before the Reaver fight. I laughed out loud myself at one other thing (see below). I feel...cheated. And not by anyone, or anything, and certainly not by the movie itself, but I've been hyped about seeing this for so long that to see it in such a disappointing atmosphere was a HUGE letdown, though I enjoyed it immensely myself.
Now as for the deaths:
Who the hell let George R.R. Martin write the screenplay? Not that I think the deaths shouldn't have happened, but cripes! 2 out of 9 is a larger fraction of crew gone than I like. I didn't see either of them coming. I assumed Shepherd would join the crew when they went back to Haven, and truth be told, I didn't really know Wash was dead until the funeral scene. I thought "So a big log hit him in the stomach. They've survived worse. I know it looks like he's dead but Joss is just toying with me. Wash will wake up and somehow make the ship fly without engines and all those other important parts that got busted off, and meet up with the other kids later." And I wasn't trying to convince myself while crying inside or anything. I seriously assumed he was still alive, despite being a little confused as to why they all left him behind so easily but figured it was something to do with my not knowing what exactly the big log thing was and maybe they didn't have time to get him out of it. Or soemthing. I think also what confused me was that it kept running through my mind that I thought I'd heard everyone but Mal had signed on for the sequels if they happened, but apparently that was a fake report or else they're going to include a lot of flashbacks. Looking back now that I know he was really dead, I do think it was appropriate that Wash's death was BANG and over, because real world death scenes often *are* that sudden and as was already said, in battle you can't always stop to mourn.
As for the rest of the film, I think I need another day to digest it before I can say much. Simon's inconsistency from the series to the movie bothered me from the start, but that's been covered already by the rest of you.
My favourite lines:
"Do you want to run this ship?" "YES." "Well...you can't!"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
From a stand alone movie point of view I can accept Wash's death, though not the majority of the 20 minutes that follows it, that to me looked rushed and smushed together. I barely even registered the fact that Mal and Inara were pushed closer together, or that Simon and Kaylee actually got together, I was still on the previous scene when the movie was being wrapped up.
As a stand alone, it's fine, but I think it's clear that his attempt at the end for an opening means he intends for there to be room for a sequel. And in that sense, I think it was a bad idea, or at the very least it was done poorly.
I think it was pretty obvious that all bets were off. Two minutes after he died they were trapped in a room filled with cannibalistic crazy people, if that doesn't signal 'all bets are off' I don't know what does. From the only two people I've talked to who hadn't seen Firefly, they were confused about Zoe and Wash's relationship. They didn't really see the husband/wife thing at all, and were confused by the way she reacted when he died, because in part, they didn't know her history as a soldier.
If they wanted to kill Wash, they should have done it in the room when everyone else was shot up around him. Then at least Zoe could have stopped for a second to talk to him, and him to her. Rather than 3 minutes of sadness and then a 10 minute "Look, everything is okay now, and we put River in the replaceable Wash's place, it's all good! Let's marry Zoe off again, and we're back to the status quo!" scene.
Edit: After reading Astaril's post. Alright, I can forgive even the abruptness and the lack of mourning in the immediacy after the battle, there was plenty of time AFTER the battle, and all he was given was a 45 second funeral that honored him and Mr. Universe on the same level. I don't accept that.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
BtL's scientist comment reminds me, I also have one serious gripe. Skeletons don't stay articulated when you take away all the meat. When will movie-makers *learn* this??
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
So ya didn't get to watch the skeletons get wired. Ya also didn't get to see the skeletons anchored onto the hull. Personally, I wouldn't want to see the flesh being stripped off the bones. And think it woulda been a waste of limited time.
You guys are complaining that they didn't rerun the entire Firefly series within the Serenity movie. Time-wise, it ain't gonna fit. For the movie plot, the viewer didn't need to know more than that Mr.Universe was an über-nerd. And the movie goer got considerably more characterization than that.
[ October 01, 2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't care that they didn't "rerun the entire Firefly series within the Serenity movie."
But I do think there was a lack of continuity between the two.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
It would take hours to wire together skeletons to look as articulate as those did. I got the feeling they tied a few bodies together, tied them onto the ship and took off, and the flesh would have been burned off by hitting atmo. The only argument is that they did spend hours doing it because they had to make it look like how Reavers would have done it, but I have a very hard time seeing Reavers sitting around intricately wiring together so many bones into the proper shape too.
"I say, George, could you pass me that femur?" "Certainly, Alice! Oh, and has anyone got an extra phalange? I seem to have swallowed one of these by accident in my ravaging cannibalistic fury just now." "Naturally, George. Happens to us all, eh, chum?" *nudge nudge* "Here you are."
Edit: Yes, I am blowing this two-second clip way out of proportion. I'm not really that upset; it's just that it *always* happens in movies.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"...there was a lack of continuity..."
Maybe: eg Simon rescuing River.
Or maybe not: eg there is nothing which says that Simon had to be upfront in his dealings with Mal and the crew. Considering how valuable information leading to the recapture of River would have been, Simon would have been foolish to expose any secrets -- ie those that he could have kept hidden -- to a group of strangers known mostly for their shady dealings.
[ October 01, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The sniveling Simon of the show was not the same flash back Simon we saw in the flashbacks.
Mal in the movie flat out told them that he and River weren't a part of the crew, which is the exact opposite of what he told them in "Safe" (that's the ep where they get kidnapped right?)
And for a lack of explanation, they didn't really explain where Book or Inara fit into the grand scheme of things. If I hadn't seen the movie I would have assumed Book was a smuggling contact who helped hide them, and they they'd never had a history beyond that.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
As a Firefly fan I wish we got a lot more of Book, Inara, Wash, and Zoe.
But I don't think it would be possible to go into all that AND introduce two new characters.
I'm sad that we lost Wash, but we are gaining a terrific new character in the Operative. Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I got the feeling the Operative planned to disappear himself with no trace. And who was the second new character? Do you mean Mr. Universe?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The Operative is gone, he was a one time character. And Mr. Universe is dead.
Not exactly an even trade.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I agree that it is not an even trade. No character could ever replace Wash.
The Operative was set up as a great counterpoint to Mal. He is a believer in the wrong cause while Mal is a unbeliever in the right one. I'm glad Whedon spent the time exploring the Operative's character even though it meant sacrificing some screen time for the rest of the crew.
I can see the Operative coming back as a semi-regular character. Whedon is very good at reusing villains to great effect. For example: Spike, Darla, Hope, and my favorite, Lilah. (If you read the Serenity comic book you'll see further evidence of Whedon's recycling habits.)
Mr. Universe, on the other hand, was kind of a lame character. Did we really need this guy?
However, I'm not 100% convinced that Mr. Universe is dead. He strikes me as a genius who likes his privacy. I find it hard to believe that the Alliance could easily land on his planet without his knowledge. Maybe there were two robots in that room. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Or Mr.Universe's mind is uploaded in the mainframe or "on the air" with a clone/android/etc body awaiting a download.
Knowing that Book wasted the Alliance attackers, I can easily see the Operative coming back as a Shepherd.
[ October 01, 2005, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
As a stand alone, it's fine, but I think it's clear that his attempt at the end for an opening means he intends for there to be room for a sequel. And in that sense, I think it was a bad idea, or at the very least it was done poorly.
Joss has said in several interviews that he couldn't plan for a sequel, he had to write it like it would be his only chance for a Firefly movie. He certainly wouldn't mind a series of these, but when he wrote it was to be self-contained.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
That's every geek's dream aspectre.
I'm rewatching the pilot episode right now. Every special Wash moment makes me wince.
Zoe: "Something ain't right." Wash: "Sweetie, we're crooks. If everything were right we'd be in jail."
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
"However, I'm not 100% convinced that Mr. Universe is dead. He strikes me as a genius who likes his privacy. I find it hard to believe that the Alliance could easily land on his planet without his knowledge."
Didn't he allow them to come so they'd pay him to trick Serenity into coming to him? When he was finished talking to Serenity, didn't he look at the Operative and ask for his money? Or did I misunderstand that scene?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah, I think Mr. Universe is pretty dead.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
That's a good point. Mr. Universe did ask for money. The most direct explanation would be that he intended to sell Mal out and had invited the Alliance to his planet.
There are other possibilities, though. Maybe Mr. Universe staged his own death knowing that the Alliance would never let him live. Asking for the money could just be part of his scheme to lure the Operative into believing that he is just another selfish criminal.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I would tend to think he's very dead. Partly for the reasons people have mentioned and partly because Joss don't play that. Okay, maybe he does. How many times did he resurrect Buffy?
Bringing back Mr. Universe would be dumb, though. He was a one-note character with questionable interpersonal skills who sold out the good guys, but helped out in the end.
He served his purpose. Bringing him back would be like doing cpr on a hamster.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Didn't we essentially see the Operative kill him or mention something about killing him and destroying everything? I thought he said "I'll take my money now" or something to that effect and then got stabbed. Maybe I misinterpreted it but I really can't see how. The way I see it is he got offered a lot of money and/or had his life threatened by the Operative so he turned on Mal, but then realized the Operative was the bad guy (if he was doing it voluntarily for the money - if he was threatened, he'd know already) when he got stabbed, so he left the message for Mal after the Operative left him there to bleed to death. I figure he was promised by the Operative that he and Mal etcetera would live if he cooperated, so he did, not knowing of course what River was or how important the tape was.
At least that was my take on things.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
I think the operative should have fallen on his sword as he told Mal he wouldn't see him anymore..."there's nothing left to see." I think was the line. He was real big on men dying when they failed and being a man about it. Why didn't he do it when he failed?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I assumed it was because Mal broke him.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I kept waiting for that too!
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:make 1/10th of the population go absolutely ape
I thought I heard it as 1/10 of 1%... but I could be wrong.
Re: Zoe and Wash -- early on, I heard Zoe refer to Wash as "my husband" -- it was one of those scenes where the camera's zooming around Serenity and she's walking around or on the stairs or something. (But yeah, I wish there'd been more character time for Zoe and Wash.)
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob the Lawyer: I assumed it was because Mal broke him.
I think that should have been more then enough reason for him to do it!
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
How do you know he didn't? He did say Mal wouldn't be seeing him again.
I would imagine that 1/10th of 1 percent is a small enough percentage that it could be missed in testing.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:That's a good point. Mr. Universe did ask for money.
Yes, but it seems almost certain that he was motivated by life-preservation, not avarice. The line in question was "give me my thirty coin," a sarcastic reference to Judas.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I wish there'd been more character time in the movie; I suppose we'll get that restored in the DVD version. (But, I'm glad for as much characterization that we DID get.)
In some ways, the fast pace of the movie reminded me of Aliens II -- where you were given some sense of the Marines' characters, but where the main emphasis was on the action...
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:The sniveling Simon of the show was not the same flash back Simon we saw in the flashbacks.
I never saw Simon as "sniveling." I thought the series made it very clear that Simon was very brave. He had money, talent, and major guts to rescue River. In the pilot he was very composed and strong when he joined the crew. It wasn't until after Mal found River and Simon found out Mal was shady that he lost the upper hand, but he consistently stood by and protected his sister.
He was even willing to burn at the stake with her.
I think it was in character of him to punch Mal. Mal took his sister into a new and dangerous situation that went sour. I think he was in character when he rescued River. It was a carefully planned escape that cost him everything. He is an intelligent doctor who knows the science field. Of course he knew how to hold his composure to bluff his way in.
The facility was probably closer to his world then Serenity. I always thought his “snivel” like composure was due to him being financially broke and dependent on borderline criminals, not due to some character weakness.
I loved how the Operative recognized that Simon was driven by love.
EDIT [ADDED]: Remeber how strong and in charge Simon was when they took River to the hospital?
[ October 01, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: lem ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Or the "snivel" was camouflage. When in the midst of people with dubious reputations, it's a very bad idea to posture "Bring it on. Make my day." I wouldn't have the slightest hesitation in cringing and sniveling if doing so provided a bit more safety for a loved one.
More importantly, Simon had a very helpless-through-possible-psychosis sister to protect. His only edge amongst obvious badasses is hiding his level of "when the going gets tough" competence... ...to spring as surprise should necessity arise to go against their will.
[ October 01, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
See All you guys need to watch the movie again as much as I do. Hurry! Hurry! It could be months before they release the DVD to analyze.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I would imagine that 1/10th of 1 percent is a small enough percentage that it could be missed in testing.
And perhaps it took a while for the real effects to manifest themselves. Maybe initial testing showed that it took away aggressive tendencies, so they decided to implement it on a large scale. I got the impression that the population didn't lay down and die immediately.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Let's not forget that in the pilot, Simon refused to treat Kaylee unless Mal did what Simon wanted. That man is no cream puff.
I agree that given what we saw in the movie, bringing back Mr. Universe will probably not advance the story very much. But Serenity is supposed to be most of season two crammed into one little film. It is possible that Mr. Universe had a much bigger role in the verse than we imagined.
If we are lucky to get the TV series back, we just might find out more about him. As Shmuel pointed out, Mr. Universe did not seem to be acting out of greed. He could be another complex and interesting character. (Personally, I'm more interseted in finding out more about Book, though.)
Like most of you, I was under the impression that when people die in this verse, they remain dead. That is, until I read the Serenity comic books. Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
So when's the release date for the next movie? As soon as it hits the 8 mil mark? *Goes to donate a few million dollars to Universal in honor of Serenity* *Extremely eager for next movie*
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I can't find the comic anywhere here! Is it available to buy anywhere online?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The fact that his own beloved Alliance broke his belief in "a future without fear and aggression" is what caused the Operative to "lay down his sword". Mal was just the messenger delivering the evidence.
Considering thalidomide, I can see very slow-to-arise longterm cumulative effects of PAX being missed. Or hidden, if recent behaviour by our own pharmaceutical companies is any guide to the future. Especially if PAX had a sudden exponentially large rise in pathological symptoms near the terminal state.
[ October 01, 2005, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
Just curious, but is that move that the Operative did, the one that freezes your entire body, is that possible? Is there really a nerve cluster that if you hit it in the right way freezes all of your muscles?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
I'd tell ya, but then I'd hafta send ya to Guantanamo to protect the secret.
[ October 01, 2005, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
No, see, it's because of thalidomide that it would have been caught. 1 in 1000 is still high, and long term tests would have had to be done if it was being globally released. They weren't idiots. Unless, I suppose, the powers that be ignored everything and pushed it through.
Meh. It's just something that irked me.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
But yeh, there are places you can be struck with sufficient force that it takes all that you can do to remain upright. Though its not exactly paralysis, ya just don't think about moving. Maybe you would be able to move if you took the hits during real combat: the hormone flow caused by the possibility of death can make ya do some incredible things. And I've experienced extremely-temporary paralysis after taking some rather stupid falls.
[ October 01, 2005, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Do Reavers breed?
It would be interesting if they are smart enough to reproduce the same chemicals that drive them crazy.
What is the Reaver's chain of command like? (Like Jayne's perhaps, where he beats you with the chain until you obey. )
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
I noticed it too, BtL, as the only toothgrinder in an otherwise splendid example of science fiction. But presentday clinical trials are required to present only their first 6months of results, and considering how presentday pharmaceutical companies have hidden unfavorable post-6month clinical trial and user survey results... All it would take to have a presentday catastrophe is a drug that doesn't show negative effects until after the FDA approval, and a sudden rise in drug-induced negative symptoms only after long-term cumulative effects cause a metabolic cascade.
[ October 02, 2005, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: Just curious, but is that move that the Operative did, the one that freezes your entire body, is that possible? Is there really a nerve cluster that if you hit it in the right way freezes all of your muscles?
Sure there is. I bet he got a copy of Jade Fox's stolen manuscript.
Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
Some friends and I saw it last night, and I'll be going again with the folks from work on Wednesday. What a great movie. One of my friends finished the novelization a few days ago and accidentially let slip that a couple of characters died... but not who... as soon as I saw Haven in ruin I knew Book was #1, it didn't surprise me at all... I was terribly saddened, but not surprised. I had narrowed it down to him, Wash and Zoe in my head (which would either leave us in the sequal with a newly disturbed ex-funnyman, or a potentially pregnant*, and now very lonely, shiong-tsan sha-sho**, guess it's going to be the latter), so after the initial moment of shock when the spike came through the window, I wasn't surprised by Wash's death either... it definitely gave the feeling of "all bets are off" as the quote from Alan Tudyk put it.
One thing that really took me out of the movie, early on, that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned is the whole part where Jayne gets the spike through his leg and almost falls off the mule (I loved the new mule, by the way). Now, I'm no doctor, but the forces involved in being pulled like that were surely enough to cause some major damage to his thigh/calf/knee/wherever-it-hit... or at least dislocated a few important joints... but his treatment afterward simply consisted of pouring liquor on it and wrapping it... he doesn't even limp, it's forgotten... Other than that little gripe, I'm still in awe. The part with Simon in the academy at the beginning was necessary, if a little sloppy. Considering the amount of backstory they had to squeeze in to bring the non-fans up to speed, I think it was done well enough.
*just to add some more fuel to this debate, I'll point you all to the second of the three Serenity comics. (maybe I'll post a scan of the pertinent page when my scanner decides to cooperate and it isn't 1:30 in the morning)
An arrow/spike/etc can do surprisingly little damage to muscle tissue IF the path through the muscle groups is right.
As for healing, I was under the impression that it was days, possibly weeks travel between the planet of the payroll heist and the planet where they delivered the cut of the payroll as a "finder's" fee to the twins.
I scratched my head a bit more about the rope tension between Jayne's leg and the Reaver ship.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
One thing I did like was that they explained the whole "found another system with tons of planets" thing. I always wondered about that, and how they got from planet to planet so fast without any "warp drive" or what not. Still, it seems kinda weird that by comparison, that's like Pluto and Uranus being the border planets. Scale puts things in perspective.
After a full day to really think about the movie. I do like it. I don't love it as the best thing ever, I think it has many flaws, but it was a very, very good film. I love it in the same way I love Star Wars Ep. III. Great film, but not so great that I couldn't get over the many flaws. I won't feel the same way about a sequel or show reborn however. For my, my love of Firefly died with this film. If Joss were to make a new show or a new movie, it wouldn't be Firefly to me anymore, I'd have to judge it anew, but I'd still be forced to compare it to the old one.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
THEY KILLED WASH!!!!!?!?!?
I can't believe that!
Still, an unbelieveable movie. Fantastic.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I just got back.
I loved it.
As we walked out, Tony and I just turned to each other and said "Bastard."
Joss bloody Wheddon. Gets me every time. [Edit - these are people who died in Buffy/Angel that were kinda unexpected and I was upset about. See the series if you don't know what I'm talking about. And ignore the edit that used to be here. ] - now Wash too?!?
I thought River's pose as the door re-opened (her standing with bloodied axes, reaver bodies all around) was very Buffy-esque. Action hero girl strikes again.
[ October 03, 2005, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I too am curious if the Reavers breed. They seem to retain enough intelegence to fly starships. And how many Reavers could possibly be left 20 years after the original disaster that formed them? How many people were on Miranda? 30 million? 2 billion?
My guess is that the Reavers do breed or make recruits.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I think they said 12 years, not 20 years.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I saw it, greatly enjoyed it. When River ran through the little square hole in the door, there were people clapping.
I also bought Firefly on DVD today. Wee! They have the brand new DVD series smell to them.
As for Reavers, in the episode Bushwacked, they mention how the one survivor becomes like a Reaver because of what he's seen. So maybe they just make people watch, leave them alive, and then they become Reavers themselves. Easy way to reproduce for them.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I've never seen the show so my perspective is probably very different from everyone elses. Though I must say, I've already decided to rent the dvds as soon as possible.
My roommate and I loved the movie. When Wash died, I remember looking over at her and she was covering her mouth in shock. In such a short-time, Joss made us fall in love with his character and it really hurt to see him die to suddenly.
I definently could have used some more Zoe/Wash scenes. I remember being really stunned the first time I saw them sort of being cuddly. A relationship between those two characters...it wasn't expected. And more of a reaction on her part falling his death would have been nice. I know we saw it later after the Reavers burst through the door, but I would have liked to see it at the very beginning of that scene.
I'm in love with Mal's character. I don't know if anyone watches Queer as Folk, but he was giving me Brian Kinney vibes. I liked that he was tough and detached and sarcastic, but you could just tell that a very tortured soul was just trying to hold on. The preparation for passage through Reaver territory was intense. I remember feeling the most angry with him during that scene, but later feeling awed at his strength and determination.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
THANK you Shanna. I told my best friend (who introduced me to Firefly back in the day) that Nathan Fillion reminded me of Brian Kinney from QaF, and she said "No, I don't see it."
Glad someone agrees.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Hmm, now that that's been mentioned about Mal and Brian, I think I agree as well.
I feel like Zoe didn't really have time to react to Wash's death, she had to get out of the ship or die herself. She also really wanted revenge on the Reavers which in and of itself is a reaction. In a siutation like that I don't think there's time to get all emotional.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: How many people were on Miranda? 30 million? 2 billion?
There were 30 million people on Miranda. And the girl in the report said about 10% of those on the planet had the opposite reaction to everyone else.
So I'd say there were approximately 3 million Reavers to begin with.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
No, the report said 'one tenth of one percent.' So it's much much less than 3 million.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Re: PAX. I think Joss was just using today's studies on anti-depressants. Prozac, used as an anti-depressant for many years, has in some supposedly caused the exact opposite of its effects. This has cause people to commit suicide or become exceedingly violent. Granted, they don't (as Jayne says) "cut on themselves" or cause them to eat people but it is a jarringly different reaction than what one would expect. This has happened and the drug is still on the market. I would imagine that if they exposed the entire population of a world to the drug the same thing would happen. They just amped up the results on both sides...one reaction was total apathy and the other total violence. If this isn't some nice commentary by Joss, I don't know what is.
While it was sad to lose both Wash and Book, it will make for nice character stuff for River and Mal (in the hopeful future sequel(s)). Mal lost his moral compass with Book and a fun foil with Wash but I think River can make up some of both of those roles for Mal. She will remind him why he does what he does (moral compass) and she will also know what to say to make him do a double take when he needs it. I loved the hint of the new dynamic at end of the movie, though I was hoping the "love" speech would have been the more simple "Find a crew, find a job, keep flying" sort of deal. I loved his line about this in the series...about going just a little bit further out as "civilization" began to crowd his skies. That kind of thing. Still a nice coda, though...that Joss couldn't resist farting on with another piece of the ship dropping off...and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: No, the report said 'one tenth of one percent.' So it's much much less than 3 million.
Oh crap, I misheard it then..
Then other than 'reproducing' by causing other people to become Reavers, then they have to have some other form of doing it.. (no pun intended).
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
I'm pretty sure it was "a tenth of the population had the opposite effect," C-Dubs.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Hey imogen --
I know Whedon's a bastard who kills off characters we love... but could you go back and edit those spoiler deaths about Buffy and Angel out of your post? You spoiled things for me once before, and if I hadn't just finished watching the last season of Angel this week, I would be EXTREMELY pissed at you for spoiling things for me again Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
One-tenth of one percent.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I liked firefly. I truly enjoyed Serenity, but there was always something mind-numbingly stupid about Buffy the Vampire Slayer for me, even when I tried to appreciate it as camp. I'm still surprised that it attained such a following because the episodes I saw were, in my esteem, only a swimmingly pool deeper than the "Power Rangers."
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Chris and I are right. I was paying close attention to that part too. Which brings up the question (again), how in the heck are there still so many? I can't imagine them breeding and having little normal babies that they 'train' to be Reavers. The whole point is that they're NOT a society, they're an accident...
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Anyone else here think Book was an Operative back in the ol pre-Shepard days?
And PS, I picked this name pre-Firefly. I am neither wise nor intelligent.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
You protest too much, Book!
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Oh man, River's reaction when Simon asked her "Am I talking to Miranda now?"--priceless.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Haha, yes. I loved that the lines like that were met with distain within the story because in any other film they'd try to do it straight and it'd be boring.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
And I thoroughly loved the movie. My ONLY gripe is that Chiwetel Ejiofor's character got to live. This guy was evil and killed possibly hundreds of people in his mission after River. What is it with Mal and letting villains live? He did the same with Niska. Does it say something about Mal's morality or something about Whedon leaving room open for other encounters down the road...?
And...
"Forget this. I'm going to live!" =D
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Reavers do recruit in a sense. See the episode "Bushwhacked" for how.
If there's a sequel I'm a bit curious to see if the Reavers are still around at all. Given that they roam and raid, they wouldn't ALL be in that one cluster so some would have survived elsewhere. But story-wise they're kind of spent. We know where they come from, and the crew's survived an up-close fight with them. Future Reaver plotlines would seem kind of pointless.
--Enigmatic
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Plaid - done.
[Edit - Snippiness removed. My bad. ]
[ October 03, 2005, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
The quote is "Hell with this. I'm gonna live." (Sorry, I've heard it misquoted one too many times on this thread.)
Other favorites: "...but phychic? That's like something out of science fiction." "You live on a spaceship dear."
"Can you start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a ninety-pound girl? 'Cause I don't think that's ever gonna get old."
And I stand with Chris and Narnia -- one-tenth of one percent, which out of an initial population of 30 million would make 30,000 reavers. And I have a few questions about them too. If they are as mindless and savage as they are depicted in the movie, why don't they eat each other? Why would a being with that ultra-enhanced aggression be intolerant of all other beings except those which are equally aggressive? It seems to me the most likely scenario would be that the reavers all kill each other off long before they come to develop a 'society' or a 'culture.' I have a vague memory of reading an OSC article where he talked about a sort of society survival trait -- that for a society to survive, its members must be willing to subvert their own personal needs beneath those of the society (at least to some extent). This would imply restraining personal impulses (like the impulse to kill and eat someone) and I have a difficult time imagining the reavers doing that. I think the organization necessary to build, crew, and maintain a starship would also necessitate a willingness to concede personal impulses and wants in favor of some purpose larger then that of the individual, and again this to me seems inconsistent with reaver behavior. Anyone have any ideas?
quote: I never saw Simon as "sniveling." I thought the series made it very clear that Simon was very brave.
I totally agree here. To me the series made clear over and over again that Simon's primary motivation was his sister's survival and safety, and that he would go to any lengths to ensure it. A few things have already mentioned (Ariel, Serenity the pilot - not the movie, his short but gutsy fight in Jaynestown), but I just watched Objects in Space again last night and <SMALL SPOILER HERE> I think he shows some serious cajones to attack an armed bounty hunter who could clearly kick his trash even without a weapon. He does this twice, once after he has already been shot. His utter devotion to his sister was so very compelling to me -- I would put him in my top three favorite characters from the show (it's so hard to narrow them down, isn't it).
[Edited for grammar]
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote: We know where they come from, and the crew's survived an up-close fight with them. Future Reaver plotlines would seem kind of pointless.
Except, of course, the future plot line where a sane River gets her own posse and is handed the responsibility of hunting down every Reaver while at the same time combating Alyson Hannigan as the wicca chick who totally goes psycho!
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Did you hear at the beginning when Simon was talking to the Dr? The Dr. said to Simon "She's ideal for defense deployment..."
Defense deployment. Defense from what? The reavers?
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by lem:
quote: Just curious, but is that move that the Operative did, the one that freezes your entire body, is that possible? Is there really a nerve cluster that if you hit it in the right way freezes all of your muscles?
Sure there is. I bet he got a copy of Jade Fox's stolen manuscript.
YES! Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
That was a nice gesture, Imogen. Or could have been, if you'd done it more kindly. Spoilers DO matter, to a lot of people here.
Not me, though. I like being warned ahead of time about bad things. I'm glad I peeked here before I went to see Serenity.
Posted by DF2506 (Member # 6847) on :
Saw Serentity today and I loved it.
The Joss humor was great, the revelations about River and especially the Reavers were , the death of Walsh was VERY shocking (though Books death was less so), dark Mal was very cool imo (it was so cool, imo, when he shot the Operative upon their first meeting!), and well, sheesh, I could go on forever!! Oh wait, one more thing: Simon and Kaylee!! Finally. lol. And River peeking in on them! hehe. Something tells me River will always come between those two. lol.
Just an awesome movie, imo. From straight to finish, loved it.
Favorite quotes:
-" Don't be afraid to run away and let them die."-Simon
-" If I don't call back soon, take Serentity and come rescue me."---Mal (or something close to that. I really thought he'd say 'take Serentity and run away. lol!). Zoe's 'And risk MY ship..' line was cool too.
-Kaylee's Simon comments through out the movie. lol.
-Jayne had some excellent lines too. 'I might' survive. lol!
-Heck, all the humorous lines in the movie were great. Joss humor was here in full force!!!
Also of note: when I went to see Serentity yesterday, there were not many people (I'd say 10 or a little more), but everyone enjoyed it and laughed ALOT. That really added to the experiance of the movie alot! We were all enjoying it. What a ride!
Only very minor, fan complaint: The theme song wasn't in the end credits. Well, ok, I guess it was (an instrumental verison at the end someone said), but I didn't hear it. lol. Plus I would want the one with the words (though, still, can't wait to hear the instrumental verison on the dvd!). lol. Always loved that song. Like I said though, only a very minor complaint. The music was really good anyway!
VERY happy with this movie!
DF2506 " I think OSC's review of this movie is dead on. Just a great sci-fi movie! I hope for more Serentity movies, but if this is it, then so be it."
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: My ONLY gripe is that Chiwetel Ejiofor's character got to live. This guy was evil and killed possibly hundreds of people in his mission after River
That is what I love about these shows. Joss kind of subverts the genre a bit by doing this. Thankfully more people are doing this in movies but I don't think that a movie has to end with the bad guy getting killed. Comic book movies disappointed me by continuing this action expectation with the killing of villains that, in the comic book, usually live to fight another day. I hate that all action movies HAVE to end with the death of the bad guy. So predictable and trite and not always in character. It would have been valid for Mal to do this because he isn't afraid of a little bloodshed between those that disagree but that said, he had won and would even feel better about it by showing the Operative what was really going on. I don't think he "hated" the Operative as he would a Niska (who still went free) but appreciated his beliefs (or should I say the ZEAL of his beliefs) and wanted only to show him how wrong they were.
Good on him for letting it go. Sure I like the movie where the bad guy buys it but most times it seems to be expected, not earned.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: Did you hear at the beginning when Simon was talking to the Dr? The Dr. said to Simon "She's ideal for defense deployment..."
Defense deployment. Defense from what? The reavers?
My interpetation is that defense == military
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Mal wouldn't hesitate to kill anyone who threatens himself or his crew. But he only kills out of necessity. He has a "way" and that "way" does not involve killing purely for the sake of retribution.
"As far as Mal was concerned, though he'd killed many a person since this war commenced, he'd yet to murder a single living soul." Serenity Novelization.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Way more than you ever wanted to know about Shigosei's thoughts on Serenity:
I saw Serenity last night. I’ve been waiting for this ever since I saw the Firefly DVDs. I loved Firefly because the characters were well-developed and flawed, because it broke convention, and because it was about fairly ordinary people (except River, of course). It warmed my heart to see the crew of Serenity functioning as a dysfunctional yet loving family. I could identify with certain parts of each character, though perhaps I identified most with Kaylee, Simon and Wash. Of course, one difficulty I had with Firefly is that these ordinary people seemed to get out of some rather extraordinarily dangerous situations.
Well, that’s all changed now. Wash’s sudden death, and to a lesser extent, Book’s death, were the dividing line between Serenity and Firefly. In Firefly, things were safe. The Big Damn Heroes would save the day. I don’t think I ever feared for a character’s life, except Kaylee in the pilot.
Serenity is different from Firefly. The humor was there, but it wasn’t so much the focus. And Serenity most definitely wasn’t safe. It was the crew’s Big Damn Exciting and Dangerous Adventure. Every time a character was injured in the fight scene at the end, I thought that another crew member had died. I thought Zoe was dead when Jayne dragged her behind the crates. By the time Simon got shot, I was convinced that the entire crew was going to die. I thought we had been lied to about the sequels. I don’t think a book, movie, or TV show has ever had me so on edge. And that is why, from a storytelling standpoint, Wash had to die. Because it was his unexpected death that made me believe that the danger was real. Quite frankly, given the reputation of the Reavers, Joss was being merciful in letting the rest of the crew live. They were fortunate to have River with them.
Part of the genius of Joss Whedon is the way he causes the audience to experience the same thoughts and emotions of the characters. For example, in the pilot episode, I fell for Mal’s prank. Like Simon, I believed that Kaylee was dead. I experienced the same panic as Simon, only to be relieved, as he is, when we all discover that Kaylee is alive and well. I really understood what Simon was going through, because I experienced it too. In much the same way, I experienced the same shock and horror that Zoe must have felt at Wash’s sudden, violent death. Like her, I had no time to mourn him because there were other things to focus on. That is why Wash had to die the way he did. In a real combat situation, people die for no reason, and there is not time to grieve.
Another difference is that Firefly focuses on the crew as a family. By the time the movie rolls around, two family members are gone, and another two are on their way to leaving. It seems that Mal has rejected the idea that Simon and River are part of his crew, and therefore family. I have trouble believing that the Mal we see in the movie would nearly kill Jayne for betraying River and Simon. In the beginning of the movie, Simon and River are obligations, not crew or family. Honestly, I don’t like this. I understand that Mal was always supposed to be a dark character, but part of what made the series special was the bonds between the crew. I wish that the movie could have had something like the dinner scene at the end of Safe.
Here’s why I think that Serenity is going to start out slowly: there probably weren’t as many repeat viewings as there could have been over the weekend. I went to a free preview screening on September 29, with the full intention of seeing Serenity one or two more times over the weekend. I haven’t seen it again since I went the first time. I’m not emotionally ready to watch Wash die again. I certainly want to see it several more times, and I’ll buy the DVD. I just need some time to process it all. I’m sure I’m not the only fan who feels this way. I suspect that Serenity will keep going strong as all the fans who couldn’t go back on opening weekend return a week or two later to watch again. If Joss wanted a huge opening weekend gross, he shot himself in the foot with the manner of Wash’s death, and the fact that Wash and Book are dead at all. It had to be this way, but I’m sure Serenity suffered at the box office because of it.
I liked some of the important themes of the movie, notably love, belief, and freedom. The Operative mentions that there is love on Simon’s face, and that makes him very dangerous. I think this is why Simon hid River’s abilities from the crew. He didn’t do it because he didn’t care about them, or because he was dishonorable or callous. He just thinks about River above all else. Yes, it makes him dangerous—his actions could have gotten him and the entire crew killed. I’m still not convinced that it was wrong for him to do so. After all, he needed to find a safe place, and if he were honest about the threat River posed, they might both have been captured. Love pops up in other places, too. It existed between Zoe and Wash, though I wish their relationship had gotten more time on the screen. Do the non-Firefly fans even know they were married? And even hard-hearted Mal tells River at the end that the first rule of flying—the greatest commandment—is to love.
Belief and freedom also feature prominently. It’s interesting that Shepherd Book essentially tells Mal that it doesn’t matter if he believes in God, or in anything in particular. Just that he believes in something beside himself. I think that Mal has shown through the series that he already does believe in things—in helping people, in killing only when necessary, in protecting his crew. So what has Mal lost his faith in, besides God? His belief in the cause that drove him to go to war. His belief in freedom for everyone under the heel of the Alliance, not his own personal freedom. It is interesting to note that River objects to the Alliance stripping the border worlds of their autonomy and telling them what to think. And Mal, after finding out about the Pax, says that the Alliance has no right to try to force people to be better. And so, with some help from Book, Mal regains his belief in freedom for all and risks himself and his crew so that the whole ‘verse has a chance to be free.
The villain in Serenity was fascinating. He’s extremely smart and skilled. He believes in a better world and says that he is a monster, and acknowledges there’s no place for people like him and people like Mal. I like how he tells people what their sins are. He’s a demonstration of the power and danger of belief in the wrong thing, a counterpoint to Book’s implication that it’s belief, not the subject of the belief that is important.
As my credits rolled, my first instinct was to go home and pretend that this movie had never happened. I’ve moved on from denial, right on through anger (Damn you, Joss!), to bargaining (Please let there be flashbacks of Book and Wash or something better in the next movie!), and now depression and some degree of acceptance.
In the real world, people die, and rarely for a good reason. This movie moved me to tears. I’ve been grieving all weekend for two people who aren’t even real. I laughed, despite the fact that I was crying. I’m crushed about the loss of Book and Wash, but their deaths made the movie far more powerful than it could have been had everyone survived. So thank you from the bottom of my heart, Joss, for punching me in the gut.
Observations: It really threw me when I saw Simon in the Alliance facility with River. At first, I thought she’d been recaptured. It was really a great scene for Simon, though. I was impressed with his ability to think on his feet and stay calm while watching his sister in torment.
I like how the question of FTL/One solar system was settled, and the Firefly ‘verse explained, in River’s first dream sequence.
Given the conversation between Wash and Zoe in Heart of Gold, might Zoe be pregnant? I realize that there’s no indication of this in the movie, but I’m sure hoping that it’s true.
I actually doubt that one could be a former operative and not be hunted by the Alliance, but is it possible that Book was in fact an operative at one point, and quit for similar reasons as The Operative in Serenity? At the very least, Book may have lost his faith in the Alliance and gone looking for it elsewhere, while still remaining on good terms with the Alliance. One thing that upset me about Book’s death was that we’d never find out who he was. Then my friend pointed out that this actually might be the opportunity to discover more about him, when Book’s old contacts find out that he’s dead, and the last living people to see him alive are the crew of Serenity.
Mal’s quarters look nothing like the ones he had in the series.
I miss the Western music.
Did one of the Reaver ships look like Jubal Early’s ship, only Reaverfied?
I wonder how the crew dynamics will change with River apparently more sane, Wash dead, and Inara back on the ship and more willing to be open with Mal. I’m looking forward to seeing River becoming more of a whole person.
I was glad to see the dinosaurs sitting in the cockpit at the end.
Great moments-- -The movie beginning and ending with something falling off the ship and Mal saying, “What was that?” -The shot of Serenity flying through space, then hitting atmosphere and starting to heat up. And then, the long shot of Mal walking through the ship. -“You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed.” (So true, for our BDHs.) -The chase scene in the mule. My heart was racing like crazy by the time the mule crashed into the ship. “Faster! Faster would be better!” -“I swallowed a bug!” -Simon punching Mal -“Been more’n a year since I had anything twixt my nethers didn’t run on batteries!” -“Tell that to Inara!” -River going crazy in the bar, and Mal carrying her out afterward. -“Dear Buddha, I would like a pony…” -The return of the crybabies (something like them, anyway, since they weren’t distress beacons) -The destruction of Haven and Book’s death scene. -Serenity as a Reaver ship -The scientist explaining what Pax did to the citizens of Miranda -River’s surprised “I’m all right!” -“I am a leaf on the wind! Watch how I soar.” -Serenity crashing and coming apart as it lands -“Hell with this! I’m gonna live!” -“My turn.” -The blast doors opening to reveal River and a bunch of dead Reavers -The rebuilding of Serenity -River taking her place as part of the crew
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
You're right Theaca.
I guess I reacted to the tone in Plaid's post - it's certainly not like I spoiled on purpose. I was just so after-Serenity excited I didn't think.
And then to be a) accused of "ruining" a show for someone previously and b) told they would be SERIOUSLY pissed off at you (mad face) kinda made me feel picked on.
I didn't mean to spoil. I did fix it (without grace) - but surely that could have been pointed out a little nicer too.
I'll refix the edit, but leave this post to show I am sorry for being snippy/snarly.
Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: I scratched my head a bit more about the rope tension between Jayne's leg and the Reaver ship.
That's what I meant
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah. I had to suspend my belief a little there, too...
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Guys, it's the future. Anything can happen.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:The group to my right included some high school girls, and one of them was sobbing clear through the end credits.
I was, too. All of the jatraqueros who were there (a dozen or so) can attest to this.
So yeah. You win, Chris.
Posted by Aerin (Member # 3902) on :
quote:What kind of crappy ass scientists realease something into the environment that's going to make 1/10th of the population go absolutely ape.
You are darling when you get science-y.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I knew that Wash was going to die.
Help me plan a painful revenge on Frisco.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I am still mourning Wash.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I agree with almost everything Shigosei said.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
So nobody has any response for my reaver questions?
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Which question was that?
Nevermind, I missed it before, and wondered the same thing. There were hundreds of Reaver ships hanging out outside Miranda, and they weren't engaged in infighting? Yeah, that was weird.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Chris (and others),
Even if Simon hadn't seen River's ninja climbing move, the other doc still told him about her physical augmentation and all that jazz. So that didn't bother me.
quote:Missed one quibble about the ending, where the Operative hits Mal's nerve cluster but Mal shakes it off. How deus ex machina was that? No previous mention of such a thing. I felt cheated. Not much, because Mal was so cool afterwards, but still. Could have been skipped, or there could have been mention in Mal's service record (which the Operative read) about it, something so we didn't think Joss pulled this one out of his nethers.
Mal said right when he snapped out of that to the Operative that that nerve cluster had been removed with some scar tissue from an old battle wound. So that was covered, I thought.
As for Zoe & Wash's relationship, didn't Mal say something early on along the lines of, "Go check on your husband"? Or did I dream that?
I loved that Wash died and the Operative lived. I had a visceral reaction watching the last act of the movie, like a punch in the stomach. I thought it was unbelievable. I'm spending my afternoon calling everyone I know and saying "Get thee to a theatre!"
By the end, when Zoe said, "Do you honestly think any of us are gonna survive this?" I was starting to worry.
Jeez, if there is a sequel (knock on wood) there'll be no one left. It'll be like the Supremes, no original members but the show goes on. Real life is messy, and good people die for no reason. It's not all rainbows and butterflies. I loved that about this movie.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Real life is messy, and good people die for no reason. It's not all rainbows and butterflies. I loved that about this movie.
I hated it. And loved it. I suppose that's the best reaction possible.
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
I saw the movie on Saturday, and I've been trying to digest it. I need to see it again, probably more than once.
My largest gripe is the escalation of tension between Mal and Simon between Objects in Space and the movie - and Mal forgetting that he'd already made the decision to consider them part of the crew. Or maybe he renegged (sp?).
I was quite upset about this through the first 1/2 of the movie, and eventually decided that Mal was just generally angrier than normal because Inara was gone. But in retrospect, it's ok. It fits. The crew and passengers on Serenity were family, but family never has a completely peaceful and happy co-existence.
And Chris - you're right. It's about time that Simon finally laid into Mal.
Wash. I can't really say anything about Wash's passing without feeling crushed and angry at how sudden and merciless his death was. But then - and this is probably what Joss is getting - life (and death) is just like that sometimes. Heroes shouldn't necessarily get any special consideration. That and I spent the rest of the movie not sure exactly what was going to happen. I feared for everybody, and that was a delicious experience.
I would have liked more reaction from Zoe. She was on - in combat mode, reacting now and feeling later. I still would have liked to see her crack, just a little bit, while she was fighting.
I miss the lost opportunity to find out more about Book. Maybe we'll have posthumous exploration of who he was. Maybe we won't.
Anyway, at the top of my wishlist for the next movie is seeing how Zoe changes now that Wash is gone. I really want to see some detailed character work from Gina Torres in the next movie, and I really want to see Joss behind it 100%, dialogue and scene-wise. Firefly was very much about how all nine of those people interacted and now there's a pair of holes in the family that need to be dealt with, and not just by their significant others.
Man, I need to see that again.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:My largest gripe is the escalation of tension between Mal and Simon between Objects in Space and the movie - and Mal forgetting that he'd already made the decision to consider them part of the crew. Or maybe he renegged (sp?).
Everyone keeps mentioning this, and I just DON'T see it. Mal did not kick the doctor off the boat. The doctor volunteered to leave. After being hit in the face, something Mal would not adjust to well in his leadership position, and the doctor emotional reaction to leave, I thought it was in character for Mal to let him go.
Once he emotionally detached, Mal was in his dark character mood.
But he didn't completely detach. He carried River back on the ship like a loving father--knowing her risk to Serenity.
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
Well, I saw it manifesting as Mal just being angry and abrasive with people where there was very little or no anger/friction in the series (and certainly not to that extent).
It felt like Joss had rewound Mal's character to the beginning of the series and was replaying that particular bit of development over again, for the sake of the people who were coming to the 'verse for the first time.
Of course, once Simon fed Mal a fist, it's perfectly within his character to let Simon go. But there was more friction between the two from the get go than what I saw existing during the last few TV episodes. But if there was an event that reignited that particular quarrel, then we didn't see it.
(Edited for clarity)
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:But there was more friction between the two from the get go than what I saw existing during the last few TV episodes. But if there was an event that reignited that particular quarrel, then we didn't see it.
I thought the first time we saw the two of them together, it was over a fairly significant event. Mal was going to use River for the first time on a mission--a bank robbery no less!
When Simon approached Mal for the first time, Mal could not even tell if Simon was angry. He was good natured...until Simon made demands.
Mal explained his position and gave his warning. Simon was within character trying to protect his sister. It started ugly and escalated, but Mal did take them back.
I would of liked to see them back at their old jabs once River and Simon returned, but for the pace of the movie, I can understand why the didn't focus on that.
I still don't think there was a difference between their relationship in Objects in Space and Serenity--except for Simon assaulting Mal ('bout time!).
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
Simon's already trusted Mal with River's life, multiple times. Not always willingly, so I concede the point for the moment. It still sours me that Mal "forgot" about them being part of his crew. I didn't get the impression that he was the sort of person to withdraw that kind of distinction.
I need to see the movie again. Details have slipped away already.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
My biggest gripe with the darker Mal was how he treated Kaylee. "If this ship crashes, you crashed her." Come on, he would NEVER have said that in the series, even if he was a little more light-hearted back then. And then when he said he'd shoot any of them if they crossed him, and the "Now get to work!" that he growled at them...it just didn't fit. I understand he was upset by Book's death at that point and really pissed off at the operative, but Mal loves his crew. I missed seeing small evidences of that (until the end of the movie I suppose.)
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
quote:Simon's already trusted Mal with River's life, multiple times. Not always willingly, so I concede the point for the moment. It still sours me that Mal "forgot" about them being part of his crew. I didn't get the impression that he was the sort of person to withdraw that kind of distinction.
I felt the same way Lime. I guess we were supposed to forget about them being part of the crew just as we were supposed to forget about Simon NOT rescuing River like that. (I didn't have trouble forgetting about the latter, but it was hard for me to see the change in Mal. I'm ok with it, but I can see what everyone is saying.)
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
quote:My biggest gripe with the darker Mal was how he treated Kaylee. "If this ship crashes, you crashed her."
That's the quote I was looking for. Mal never spoke that harshly to Kaylee, ever, even under the severest stress.
Also:
quote:And then when he said he'd shoot any of them if they crossed him, and the "Now get to work!" that he growled at them...it just didn't fit.
I was going to use this as another example, but they were in a bad place and they had to get moving quickly. The Alliance could have been coming back around. Though I'd have thought Mal would have pointed that out and let that be motivation enough.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
He has spoken harshly/rudely to Kaylee before. In Shindig he hurt her feelings pretty bad. And in Out of Gas he was pretty harsh to her when he was trying to motivate her.
He apologized later, but he tends to break all the rules when he wants something done.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
quote: And I stand with Chris and Narnia -- one-tenth of one percent, which out of an initial population of 30 million would make 30,000 reavers. And I have a few questions about them too. If they are as mindless and savage as they are depicted in the movie, why don't they eat each other? Why would a being with that ultra-enhanced aggression be intolerant of all other beings except those which are equally aggressive? It seems to me the most likely scenario would be that the reavers all kill each other off long before they come to develop a 'society' or a 'culture.' I have a vague memory of reading an OSC article where he talked about a sort of society survival trait -- that for a society to survive, its members must be willing to subvert their own personal needs beneath those of the society (at least to some extent). This would imply restraining personal impulses (like the impulse to kill and eat someone) and I have a difficult time imagining the reavers doing that. I think the organization necessary to build, crew, and maintain a starship would also necessitate a willingness to concede personal impulses and wants in favor of some purpose larger then that of the individual, and again this to me seems inconsistent with reaver behavior. Anyone have any ideas?
Forgive me if I'm belaboring the point, but I would love to hear what what some of you think about the reavers.
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
quote:He has spoken harshly/rudely to Kaylee before. In Shindig he hurt her feelings pretty bad. And in Out of Gas he was pretty harsh to her when he was trying to motivate her.
Oh. Yes, that's right. Okay. Now I really need to see the movie again. And the DVDs, apparently.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
JemmyGrove, I too wondered why the Reavers didn't seem to attack each other. It seems that there is some sort of group identity among them, or maybe they are afraid to attack each other, and only attack normal people because that's safer.
I also don't think the Reavers are mindless, given that they can run those ships just fine. I think they are simply extremely violent and aggressive. Maybe they're a little more rational most of the time and only become berzerkers when they're actually on a raid?
Can you imagine Reavers playing chess, or reading books, or hanging out with friends when they're not out brutally murdering people? Nope, I can't either.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
They could have a personal vendetta against normal humans simply because they weren't affected in the same way. I mean, if I were given some sort of funky chemical that made me go balistic, I'd probably go after the people who did it to me, not the people who have also become like me.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
There must be more to them than meets the eye.
Hey, wait, I think I've figured it out . . .
They're Transformers!!!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I have a question about the beginning of the movie when River was still being experimented on. Did any of the guys in there have blue hands? I tried to see if any of them did, but I didn't see any.
If they didn't, then where did the blue hands guys come from and why are their hands blue?
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: or maybe they are afraid to attack each other, and only attack normal people because that's safer.
I don't buy "safety" as a plausable motivation for how they direct their attacks. Most of the evidence from the show (and the movie) suggests a near complete lack of consideration for their personal safety.
Of course there's Bushwacked, which suggests that they have at least an instinct for self-preservation, although that may be a special case because he didn't become a reaver by the same means the others did.
I agree with you that there's something about them that we don't yet know. I would love to see some exploration on the show as to what holds the reavers together as a group and how any semblance of a social organization could exist under those circumstances.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
heh. No, I think not attacking other reavers is a result of their percieved strength. This is not a product of higher functioning mental capacity. It's very basic.
There was a kid in my son's preschool class that was a bully. He was the same age/size as the kids in his class, more or less. The school's strategy? Put him in a class with kids mostly bigger than him. Bullying stopped. This was the 'toddler class' so they were all under two years old. Unusual aggressiveness WILL be focussed, generally, on the easier targets.
Which may be why the reavers do their ships that way on the outside, as a show of strength. It may also account for why the reavers did eventually attack Serenity - they didn't recognize it, maybe, or sussed that their 'show of strength' was lacking or unconvincing.
Just a guess. Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I haven't seen the movie yet (yeah, I know, I shouldn't be in this thread), but I have a suggestion about the reavers. Going back to "Bushwhacked" - the survivor of the colony ship spoke about the people being cattle. He identified with the reavers.
The reavers are like wolves - they hunt cattle. They would probably leave other reavers alone as long as they can get their prey. If the other reavers interfere with that, then there's more likely to be a reaver-against-reaver battle.
Just my guess.
Okay, I'll step out and (probably) not post again in this thread until I've actually seen the movie. (It's finances holding me back - I'm actually hoping to see it Thursday.)
(And I'll still be reading this thread - can't help myself.)
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Thanks Olivet. The question isn't entirely settled for me, but your explanation makes sense.
As does the wolf comparison, CaySedai.
Makes me want to go see the movie again to make some careful observations -- gee, as if we were studying actual beings with an actual culture and had some actual hope of coming to an actual understanding of the inner workings of their society. (Is it possible to do an anthropological study within a work of fiction?)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Yes, Jemmy, I think it is. But we need to know more than we do, and that's not possible in this case - at least, not yet. *crosses fingers*
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
There are several college courses dedicated to studying BtVS. So an anthropological study of Firefly ain't that farfetched. I support any excuse you can come up with to rewatch the movie. Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Haha, are there really Beren? We had one here based on Star Trek but I don't know if they still offer it. .
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
POSSIBLE FURTHER SPOILERS!!!
Ok, don't know if this really counts as a spoiler. But I read an interview with Joss stating that both Wash and Book will be in sequels, but he won't say how or in what way.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
What? Flashbacks, maybe.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:If they are as mindless and savage as they are depicted in the movie, why don't they eat each other?
I never thought of Reavers as mindless and savage...well, savage, yes, but not mindless.
When people talk about them being mindless, they are not talking about their mental function, but their motivation in getting off on pain and violence.
They can drive ships. They are methodical in how they hunt. They are very predatory. They are smart and organized.
I remember reading Piers Anthony book that had a Berserker. Once the Berserker tasted blood he went into a killing frenzy. He would bite his tongue before a battle and just wail on people—cut them into many pieces.
I think the Reavers are like that. Also, I bet there is a hierarchy of respect built on violence.
I repeat. It is my take that their motivation is mindless, but I suspect they are quite smart and work as a group.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I agree with you lem, that they are smart. I still think that they may have wanted to seek some sort of vengenace on those who didn't become like them and sought solidarity with those who did.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Possible Prequel?
There could be several spin off movies made from this. Though I think spin offs would function better as a television show mini-series.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
kojabu, some folks take their BtVS pretty seriously. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Simon seing River go ninja was fully in line with the events of the movie, but directly contradicted his actions and demeanor in the series. If he had had a safe word all along, why didn't he use it when River slashed Jayne? Or when she was holding a fully loaded gun in "Objects in Space"? I can live with it, I just think it was unnecessary. One of several out-of-nowhere elements introduced, I think, to quickly demonstrate Mal's character. He reacts quickly and he takes care of his own even when they're a danger to him. Also, without the revelation of Simon's lying and endangerment of the crew, tempers wouldn't have flared highly enough for the movie's necessary tensions.
The Simon from the show could not have experienced what the Simon in the movie did. The Simon in the show had no clue what exactly had been done, that his sister had the skills she had (although he probably suspected pretty quickly, at least the mental ones) and he definitely did not suspect that his sister had been trained for combat. He scoffed when it was brought up, and it was demonstrated time and again that he simply isn't a good liar.
I'm starting to treat them as separate things, the show and the movie. Which isn't a bad thing, just a bit jarring.
I like the Reavers-as-wolves comparison. They take care of their pack and attack outsiders.
Mal said right when he snapped out of that to the Operative that that nerve cluster had been removed with some scar tissue from an old battle wound. So that was covered, I thought.
Covered, but (to me) annoying, like watching kids play soldiers.
Operative: Ha! Got you in the nerve cluster! Mal: Ha! Had mine moved! There, I've dislocated both your arms! Operative: Doesn't matter, I can pop 'em back in anytime I want! Ha! Shot off your leg! Mal: But I have magical leg-growing abilities I picked up in the war!
It wasn't... satisfying, I guess. More like the writer wrote himself into a corner and had to get cheesy to get out of it, and I know Joss is better than that.
ALthough I saw it again Sunday, and Zoe's relationship with Wash was much clearer to me this time. I do think there should have been more reaction from some of the others when they found out about him, though. Shock is one thing, but the audience who doesn't know the show needs to see what a blow this is. I would have expected tears from Kaylee and possibly Inara.
Again, please note that usually when I complain about movies it's a major plot problem. Here I'm quibbling, so you know it mist be a good movie.
I'll go again next weekend and see if it keeps getting better Posted by solero (Member # 8668) on :
aw man i have yet to see.!!!
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Operative: Ha! Got you in the nerve cluster! Mal: Ha! Had mine moved! There, I've dislocated both your arms! Operative: Doesn't matter, I can pop 'em back in anytime I want! Ha! Shot off your leg! Mal: But I have magical leg-growing abilities I picked up in the war!
Whedon did something similar with the final battle between Angel and the rep of the Senior Partners (played by Adam Baldwin).
At least in Angel's case, the "surprise" was in tune with Angel's nature, so the solution had a sense of poetic justice.
In Mal's case it felt more like a weird cop out.
*Novelization Spoilers*
. . . . . . . .
I like the novel's take on the nerve cluster scene. Earlier in the story, the Operative studied Mal's medical records and, if he were careful, he should have recognized that Mal's nerve cluster may have been removed by a particular surgery.
I loved it when the Operative admonished himself for not putting two and two together. Sin of pride anyone? Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Just talked to my best friend from home. He loves movies as much as me, if not more, and just went yesterday to see Flightplan. Arghhh! He hasn't even heard of Serenity. But we like the same type of stuff, and a recommendation from me is reason enough for him to go see it, and vice versa.
It was kinda funny though -
Me: Have you heard about the movie "Serenity"? Him: No, who's in it? Me: Nobody. Nobody you've ever heard of. Him: Oh. What's so good about it? Me: It's kinda a space movie, chases and explosions and stuff. But not. Him: Sounds regular. Me: Man, it's funny and quirky and weird, and you'd like it. Go see it tomorrow. Then go back this weekend. It's based off of a cancelled TV show by the guy who created Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Him: Alright, I'm looking at the showtimes for tomorrow, I'm gonna go when I get off of work. Me: Cool. Call me after and let me know what you think.
He's a pop-culture junkie (who has inexplicably never heard of Whedon) with a ton of connections. I've started a strong word of mouth campaign in Southern Louisiana.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Way to spread the word.
It may also help to mention that Whedon has contributed to the scripts of Toy Story, Speed, and Titan A.E.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Clarification (because it's been brought up a lot on this thread with no one knowing exactly what was said)
In regards to movie audiences knowing about Wash/Zoe's relationship...
Mal asks Zoe if her husband is going to get the ship off the ground. She responds in the positive. I don't remember the exact wording, but the mention of their relationship is pretty clear.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lime:
quote:He has spoken harshly/rudely to Kaylee before. In Shindig he hurt her feelings pretty bad. And in Out of Gas he was pretty harsh to her when he was trying to motivate her.
Oh. Yes, that's right. Okay. Now I really need to see the movie again. And the DVDs, apparently.
But everything 'harsh' he said to her in the series was with an undertone of "You're sweet and I love you so bust your butt and get moving because I can't do it without you!" Go watch Out of Gas again and I'm sure you won't be able to describe his treatment of her as 'harsh.' In any case, it can't possibly be compared to "If this ship crashes, you crashed her." Especially when we all know that HE knows how much she loves Serenity. It's a far cry from a kiss on the head and "You're still the best mechanic floatin'" from Our Mrs. Reynolds.
That's another thing that bugged me (while I'm nitpicking.) The non-Firefly loving audience saw nothing in the movie to show them that Kaylee is that 'best mechanic floating' or that Simon is an amazing Dr. I know we couldn't cram it in a 2 hour movie, but Kaylee ends up looking rather useless in the movie because we don't see her do anything nifty. You know?
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:In any case, it can't possibly be compared to "If this ship crashes, you crashed her."
See, I didn't hear that as being harsh. I took it as being flippantly humorous.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Yeah, I didn't think he sounded mean about it at all.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Yeah, he never sounded like he was being funny, but I suppose that could have been the case. In fact, the first time I saw it and Mal turned around to see Simon facing him, I thought Simon was going to get angry at him for talking to Kaylee like he did...but that's probably just my overdeveloped need for chivalry. Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
quote:I read an interview with Joss stating that both Wash and Book will be in sequels, but he won't say how or in what way.
See, I also remember reading something a long time ago saying that everyone but Mal had already agreed to do the sequels. That's what confused me so much when Wash died, as I mentioned in my earlier review. Flashbacks make sense for Book, because his story is still unknown, but they don't work so well for Wash, unless they add something new to his story we don't know about.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Flashbacks make sense for Book, because his story is still unknown, but they don't work so well for Wash, unless they add something new to his story we don't know about.
I've been assuming -- based on nothing outside my own imagination -- that Zoe's character development is likely to be central to the second film. That'd allow plenty of room for Wash flashbacks (or video footage, ala Inara's packing), perhaps finally showing us how the two paired up in the first place.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
In watching the film it felt to me as if a lot of hard yards had been travelled by the crew since we left them at the end of the series. Mal feels the loss of Inara and is less charming without her around, he's soul-bruised and it isn't pretty.
Simon has become harder, more accustomed to his life on the run. You get the feeling of escalating tensions between him and Mal.
I really had no problem with anything in the movie. I actually *liked* the nerve-cluster bit, I was on the edge of my seat thinking Mal would fall on the sword - it's a nice bit of business as it recalls the audience to the Operative's killing method and builds a bit of tension. Yeah, it's a deus ex, but what isn't?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I agree with Troubadour. I didn't think the movie started where the series ended, but a good six months later, after some heartbreak for Mal. Inara left - I'm not surprised that he took it out on Kaylee.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
The comics that fill in the 6 months between the movie and show, and the extra stuff in the novelization all point to two things. They finally sold the Lassiter and got the money for the new mule and some new fixings (which explains the new clothes and extra stuff on the ship), and they went through some very hard times after that.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ah, that makes sense. Dang it all, now I just want to go see it again. How many times have you guys seen it so far? I'm at 3. I'm (unrealistically) planning to see it at least once a week until it goes away.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm at two and have plans to see it twice next weekend.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I'm at two and have plans to see it twice next weekend.
Great, that gives you two chances to enter the poster contest.
quote:The all-important second weekend of Serenity in theaters fast approaches. We know you are planning on taking everyone you know to the film, and now that dedication can pay off! Send in your Serenity ticket stubs for a chance to win cool Serenity prizes! One lucky winner will get an international Serenity poster signed by Summer, Jewel, Gina, Adam, Nathan, Morena, Sean and Joss, an official Serenity Tshirt and a Serenity Prize Pack (bandana, chopsticks, window cling, mug, patch). Five runners-up will get Serenity Prize Packs. How do you enter? Mail your Serenity ticket stubs dated between Friday October 7 - Sunday October 9 to Serenity Leader, with your name phone number and email address either written on the back of your stub or on an attached sheet of paper. The more ticket stubs you enter, the more chances you will have to win! Remember, the stubs must be dated from Friday October 7 - Sunday October 9 to be entered. All entries must be postmarked by October 11th to be eligible. Winners will be selected by a random drawing. *Sorry, we can only accept ticket stubs from U.S. and Canadian theaters. No photocopies can be accepted* Please mail your tickets to:
Serenity Leader 235 Park Ave South 5th floor New York, NY 10003 Ends Oct 10, 2005
Nice! Maybe I'll see it twice. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Thanks for the edit, imogen. Sorry for the in my post.
I love Hatrack very much and have heard about lots of great books and movies thanks to y'all. Heck, I heard about Firefly thanks to Hatrack... it's just frustrating sometimes when I come across spoilers where I'm not expecting them. (Yea, Hatrack giveth, and Hatrack taketh away...)
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Random question: When Book says "That wasn't very Christian of me," is that the first time Christianity is mentioned by name in the show and movie? I seem to recall the original TV episodes being a lot more coy on the exact nature of his religion (it obviously had Judeo-Christian roots, but could have veered a good bit off course in the 500 years since the present).
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Book refers to his scripture as "the Bible," and River talks about the Ark story, so I think it's safe to assume that his religion is some sect of Christianity. Also, in Heart of Gold he says "I've been following in the footsteps of a carpenter for some time now," which is a pretty clear reference to Jesus.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There's plenty of references to it. It's obvious Inara follows some form of Buddhism. And Book makes a lot of Christian references. Also, Mal kisses his cross during the Battle of Serenity Valley.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Regarding the Reavers, if it's not too late....
After thinking quite a bit about the Reavers (I had to--the notion of berserkers flying spaceships is difficult to swallow whole), I have some speculations.
Most social critters--yes, humans too--have a dominance hierarchy in some form. Now, among humans, most of our dominance behaviors are relatively "high-brow"--cutting insults and the like--though certain...alternatives can be seen on the streets at times. But a great many creatures are less subtle; they fight, and the more aggressive and/or predatory they are, the more vicious they are about it. To be sure, dominance fights are not typically all-out--at the end of "greeting" a newcomer, your cat may be bleeding and bruised, but not dead. But the Reavers' aggression has been turned full-on.
This suggests that the interior of a Reaver ship--if you can stomach imagining it at all--is stocked with the strongest, toughest, meanest, and yes, to some degree, the smartest Reavers--the ones who have survived the process of finding their place in the hierarchy. Periodically, savage fights will break out between Reavers close in ability--that is, if there are any such left. In its way, it is no doubt a brutally meritocratic world, if the qualities listed can be considered "merits" in this context. If observed (presumably through a transmitted picture) by ordinary humans at range, the "captain" might well appear to be the sanest person on the ship--he has probably eliminated any close rivals. And worse....
Fear and aggression are not totally incompatible. But when fear forces aggression into the background, it rarely does so completely. Lacking any other target, an aggressive creature at the bottom of the heap may well turn on itself--plucking out feathers or fur, scratching or biting at its flesh. Even in humans, we sometimes see this in "self-punishing" behaviors. (Scary, scary thought--the Reaver as Dobby!) The lower a Reaver ranks, the more scarred he is likely to be, not merely from fighting but from his own self-mutilation. A captain secure in his position is probably relatively unharmed.
Ordinary people, however, are unlikely ever to observe the inside of a Reaver ship and return. An encounter with normal humans presents both "strange dogs" and soft targets--a perfect opportunity for even the weakest Reavers to unleash their fury. This suggests a disquieting scenario--humans "converted" by the Reavers are not the losers. Losers get eaten. They are the "winners"--the ones who manage to unleash their inner savagery enough to cow some portion of the crew and win a place in the hierarchy. Considering the degree of viciousness required to dominate such a being without actually killing it, sanity is clearly out the airlock at that point.
Time to return from exploring the darker crevices of the Reaver mind. I think I've had enough.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
That's ok, Plaid.
I think I'm over my snippiness, but please call me on it if I do it again.
And I promise to think before I post! Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
That's interesting Mabus. It makes sense too. It kind of backs up my belief that the Reavers couldn't possibly increase or even maintain their population through the 'recruits' they gather during the raids.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Anybody else here ever play Civilization II? There's a melody in the Serenity score that's straight from the game (though I'm sure it didn't originate there). It drove me crazy throughout the film. I definitely missed the music from the series. Is it just me, or do a lot of recent action-type scores sound like Pirates of the Caribbean?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Shame on YOU! That Serenity score sounded nothing like Pirates! The instrumentation and motivic work is fantastic (in Serenity). I love the way he worked the different cultural 'sounds' into the soundtrack. Not that the Firefly soundtrack is bad, I like it a lot. But the movie music is wonderful.
And I'm willing to get all wenchy about it. Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
To be fair, there was really only one moment (maybe two) where I got a whiff of PotC-type music. I only mentioned it bc I've noticed it a lot in other movies (which I can't recall right now, grr).
I still think the Firefly soundtrack is better. *squares off*
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
*whacks Miro on the head with her umbrella*
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Any word on how the movie's doing through the week? Obviously the weekly gross counts toward the overall, but is the number one movie just calculated off of the weekend takes?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
(for imogen)
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
It's been pulling in over $500,000 a day so far. It's slipped to #4 in the standings though. We've got work to do this weekend.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Thanks Mabus. Maybe it's my 'inner reaver' talking, but I have to admit I have this morbid fascination with the darker crevices of the reaver mind. Not that I enjoy looking at 'dark' things, but I'm awfully interested in how the society functions. Those are some mind-catching speculations.
Though I think I still agree with Narnia that they probably couldn't maintain their numbers through 'recruiting.' Which leaves the question wide open for me . . .
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I've seen it! :dies:
:revives: Must see it again! (Maybe Saturday?)
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
Joss It was so cool. I just got back from seeing it with my mom. She liked it. I too, was fascinated by the reavers.
Amaaaaaaaazing movie.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I will note that many 'quotes' from the 'Bible' in the Firefly series are not quotes that appear in any of our current Bibles.
Saffron's particular quote that makes Mal whimper, "Good Bible" comes to mind, as well as the full passage quoted by the woman in "Safe" that leads to River's persecution.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I doubt Saffron's quote was from any Bible in or out of the show's reality.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Yes! I just saw it with my drama club.
Now: does anyone know where Joss Whedon lives?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
My favorite religious reference is is "Our Mrs. Reynolds," when Mal woke up, all woozy like, and asked, "Is it Christmas"?
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I just checked my email and I was a random winner in the 9/30/05 trivia contest at the Browncoats site.
I get a Serenity prize pack: bandanna, chopsticks, window cling, mug and patch. I will be the envy of the office, at least of a couple of people at work. Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
AW lucky! Good deal.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I notice some people said they dressed up for Serenity. I'd love to see pictures. This is me dressed up, though not the actual night of the movie.
I'm going to see it Sat., and dressing up is definitely my kind of thing.
Unfortunately, I'm performing with the family band at 3 that afternoon, then we're dropping Emsie off at my mom's, and then heading straight to the movies to catch the last matinee.
So unless my "costume" fits with what we decide to wear on stage (we don't have a "uniform" look, but we do bring it up the day before so as not to clash or have one person have a totally different look from the others), I will be unable to dress up.
Of course, as we're performing Americana/Old-Timey music, I may well be able to find a "costume" that will work with that. Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I saw Serenity again yesterday, and here is my official review of it.
quote: You may have heard of Serenity, but you may just as well have not, so let me just explain it briefly. They’re billing it as the next great sci-fi adventure, which means it’s a bit like the new Star Wars movies, except more exciting, higher stakes, cooler characters, way more kickassery, and dialogue that doesn’t make you want to slit your throat and rip out your esophagus and strangle the actors and the writer with it. So I guess not that much like the new Star Wars movie at all.
In case you didn’t get the memo, Serenity is the cinematic continuation of the television show Firefly, a sci-fi western that got cancelled after a mere eleven episodes. The persistence of its devoted fans and of director and writer Joss Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel) has gotten it to the big screen after nearly three years of waiting. Now, I don’t much care for science fiction and I don’t like westerns at all, so logically there’s no reason for me to like this movie. Which just goes to show, you shouldn’t put too much credence in logic.
Captain Mal Reynolds (Nathan Fillion) and his motley crew of ragtail rebels (yeah, I had to say that) are trying to stay under the radar of the pro-homogeneity, anti-motley-crew Alliance, while living peaceful lives as petty criminals. Sadly for them, they are carrying two strays, Simon and River Tam, who have been marked fugitives ever since Simon sprang his younger sister from a sinister Alliance-controlled “Academy”. To complicate things further, River is brilliant, psychic, and—thanks to the Academy—schizophrenic and highly trained in unarmed combat. Thus Mal and his crew are having to outwit the Alliance, led by a ruthless killer known only as Operative, as well as evade a savage cannibalistic group called “reavers”, in order to keep River (and themselves) safe.
Let’s pause for a moment and discuss Nathan Fillion’s performance as Mal Reynolds. Personally, being a sucker for antiheroes, I am in love with him, but do be warned: he is a bit darker than your average antihero. In an ending-up-having-to-shoot-a-guy-he-refused-to-rescue-from-being-raped-and- eaten-by-reavers kind of way. But just be patient: he is crossed in love, don’t forget, and if you wait for a little while he’ll reveal his true colors. Nathan Fillion carries this movie beautifully with hard-faced conviction and frequent flashes of gallows humor. Kudos also to Chiwetel Ejiofor for imbuing his role as the Operative with a chilling blend of cruelty and unshakeable devotion to his cause
While there are, inevitably, a few moments that jar—for instance, when ship thug Jayne Cobb (Adam Baldwin) limps about expositing awkwardly to sweet-faced mechanic Kaylee Frye (Jewel Staite)—and a few events that smack of deus ex machina, particularly if you haven’t seen the show, the movie as a whole works remarkably well. Whedon’s talent for dialogue is unmistakable, as he mixes Chinese slang and old western speech patterns to weirdly genuine effect. The plot soars breathlessly from catastrophe to catastrophe, but Whedon never lets it take itself too seriously. At the same time, though, let’s remember that there are no guarantees. The crew of Serenity have no special powers to see them through. And they could die. And people do.
The main gripe I’ve heard is there’s not enough character development. Fair enough—a number of the crew members don’t get enough screen time to progress far beyond archetype. But the characters who need to be are fleshed-out, and—I’ll be frank here—you’ll get more character development if they make more a sequel.
So do all of us—and especially yourself—a favor, and see this one.
I like having chances to use the word "homogeneity".
Jen
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Shigosei, I'm not sure I get it. Is it possible you linked the wrong picture? Or is there something about it I should recognize as a reference to Serenity? Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
Shigosei's pic is a reference to one of the shots of River in the episode Objects in Space.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I saw it again today and I am now fairly sure that Book was originally an Operative His Ident card in Safe got the same reaction as The Operative's hand print did in Serenity. His refusal to tell Mal anything. His knowledge of both the alliance and the way The Operative was going to approach is also suspicious. He also was the only "survivor" of the ALliance attack on Haven- he brought down the ship. That's quite a talent. What else could he be?
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Ooooh . . . pretty . . .
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Hey!!! They blurred out Mal's butt on the Sci Fi channel tonight! Why else do they think people WATCH that episode? Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Inara holding a gun. Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Saffron?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Yes, I like watching YoSafBridge holding a gun too.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
"Hey!!! They blurred out Mal's butt on the Sci Fi channel tonight! Why else do they think people WATCH that episode?"
Yeah!
I'm going to go watch it right now, in fact! Unblurred!
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I am really dreading the "Heart of Gold" episode that is coming up soon. I know I'm going to be very sad when Zoe and Wash talk about having a baby.
I can't believe the death of a fictional character has such an effect on me. *sigh*
Someone I know posted a very old Whedon interview about deaths in the Whedonverse. It makes a lot of sense and I agree with the points Joss makes. But I'm still sad, nonetheless.
quote:Q: One of the things that you do from time to time in Buffy and in Angel is to establish a very important character, and then ruthlessly and unexpectedly kill them off. And you have said that you like surprises, but with Jenny, for example, in Buffy, and with Doyle who was a costar in Angel, you just set up these people and then take them from us. St. Elsewhere did that, Twin Peaks did that, not a lot of TV shows do that. Why do you do that, and what reaction do you get from fans when you do do it?
Joss: Well, I do it because I want to keep people afraid. I want to keep people in suspense. I want people to understand that everything is not perfectly safe. The problem with doing a horror show on television is that you know your main characters are coming back week to week, and you don't really care about somebody who just showed up for one episode. So every now and then you have to make the statement, "No, nothing is safe," and that's a very effective way of doing that.
If somebody objects, if somebody says, "How could you have killed that character? You have to bring that character back! You have to bring that character back!" I know I've done the right thing. If they go, "Oh, they're dead," then I killed the wrong person, because nobody cares.
One of the things that people always shy away from is killing a sympathetic character. When I worked on Speed, there was a character who died, a lawyer that Alan Ruck played, and I took out the lawyer. He was a bad man. He was terrible. You know, he was causing trouble and he ended up dying, and I turned him into a likeable, sort of a doofy toursit guy, and they're like, "Well now we can't kill him!" And my opinion was, "Well now you should, because now people will actually care when he dies." NPR Interview
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Beren, I just watched that scene.
quote:I want to meet that child one day.
Me too. I hope that Zoe is in fact pregnant, but it would be terribly sad for that child to never meet Wash, and for Wash to never see his child. He would have been an awesome daddy.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
I just got my package from Amazon.com with my DVD collection of Firefly (I have been living under a rock for the last 2 years), and after watching the first few episodes, I am both very happy and very very sad...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's a bit convenient for Zoe to be pregnant. I almost hope she isn't. Whedon's reason for killing Wash is that it's unexpected and he wants to jar you back into reality. It's too comfortable for her to be pregnant, reality rarely has such parting gifts.
I just went to see Serenity again with my brother, who I made watch my dvds of the show. His review was basically mulled into this: "It was like one big episode, only two people died." He liked it, sort of, but was very disappointed by what happened.
I have a new opinion of it. I enjoy it as a movie. I'm even coming to terms with Wash dying. I'm positive Book was an Operative. But I even more firmly believe that the movie is much MUCH weaker to people who haven't seen the series. Killing Wash served it's purpose, for people who have seen the show. But otherwise it's really not that powerful. He's a funny guy, but with his limited screen time there's no time to appreciate him or his death in any real way. For it to make more sense, we'd need more Zoe/Wash time.
Having said that, I have a couple other problems, that I've mentioned before, but for the sake of clarity, and after a second viewing, I want to reiterate:
Book - For someone who hasn't seen the series his character is totally misrepresented. His role isn't explained, his history (even on the ship with the crew) isn't explained, we really have no idea who he is and what his relationship to Mal is. All we are given is that the crew hides on Haven, and that Book is a source of advice. The only reason he even had lines was to try and set up some sort of emotional almost father like figure for Mal to be sad about when he was killed off later.
Simon/Kaylee - There is one, ONE reference in the whole movie before the end to Simon and Kaylee having any sort of sexual tension. The show was rife with it, but other than Kaylee's sexual frustration voiced in that bar on Beaumont, nothing is said about it. It seems stupid to make it this huge thing at the end that they are FINALLY getting together, when from a non-Firefly person's point of view, there has never really been any anticipation.
Inara - No explanation of what she does, or who she is. From the movie alone we don't know what she does, what her relationship to the crew is, other than the fact that she used to be there and that "a real life Companion serviced clients here" which we might be able to garner some idea of what she does from, but not really. We know that Mal drove her off somehow, and that there's some sort of romantic tension between the two of them, but other than that aren't really given any reason at all to care about them. You see the tension build up in the show, but in the movie you hit it just past the apex, which to me is a lousy way to present a complicated romantic relationship that might or might not be in the making.
The only thing I don't like about Mal is the fact that he told Simon point blank that he isn't a part of the crew, which is 180 degrees opposite from what he said in "Safe."
I already covered Wash and Zoe earlier, but again, there's nothing there. I've come to grips with her initial reaction in the fight. She's tough, she's a soldier, she can get through it. But after the funeral even, you could tell from just the way the music changed when they were rebuilding Serenity. It took the crew all of five minutes to get over Wash. To me, this tells the audience one thing: "Wash's death isn't that big a deal to the crew, so why should it be a big deal to you?" Why should I care about a character if the other characters in the movie don't really seem to?
My final review would be, that as a movie for people who have seen the series, it's fantastic. Even with Wash's death, which I had thought would ruin it all for me, I think it's the best thing I have seen this year, and maybe in many years, which is a big deal coming from someone who had been looking forward to Ep. III for EVER.
However, as a stand alone movie, without the series, I think it's empty, and choppy, and turns into your average run of the mill shoot em up western, only in space, so we have some shiny CGI.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
Mm, I just bought Firefly with a birthday gift certificate...I am very happy.
I saw Serenity again last night. I didn't cry at all the first time I saw it, but now that I knew what was coming I was crying 10 minutes before Wash's death actually happened. Fyfe had to pass me a tissue. I'm itching to go see it again...
Also, I think I am in love with Nathan Fillion.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Ok, I saw Serenity again last night. I don't get everyone's complaints that Zoe and Wash's relationship wasn't obvious enough. Everytime we see them together they're being sickeningly sweet and cuddly with each other, far more cuddly than they ever were in the show. Almost everytime someone mentions Wash to Zoe they call him "Your husband." When they're communicating while being chased by reavers they call each other "honey" and "Baby". To be honest, I'm not sure what more everyone else is looking for. Short of showing a scene of the wedding ceremony, I'm not sure there's more Joss could have done to make their relationship more obvious. I felt like I was being hit over the head with it so that I would understand when he died how that effected her.
Also, my friend who was seeing it for the first time turned to me during the final battle and asked, "Are they all going to die?" Which is exactly what I think Joss wanted us to be thinking.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: There is one, ONE reference in the whole movie before the end to Simon and Kaylee having any sort of sexual tension.
I would dispute this. Pretty much every scene in which the two of them interacted, or any scene in which Kaylee observed Simon or spoke about him, it was obvious that they cared for each other. I mean, blatantly obvious.
A line does not have to be spoken for meaning to be conveyed. While someone reading the script might miss all the meaningful looks being thrown around, I don't know how it'd be possible for someone to miss that in a movie. You'd almost have to have Asperger's.
I got the same vibe from the "Zoe/Wash not obvious enough" and "Mal too mean" complaints; in all cases, while the script didn't address these issues, the actors made the characters' feelings explicit. We KNOW Mal is anguishing over his decisions -- almost to the point of crying -- and acting tougher than he is, even though he never says it, because we can see it on his face; we know Zoe and Wash are madly in love, because we see it in their eyes -- and when Zoe goes berserk on the reaver after Wash's death, we know why. Even though it's never actually said. Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Well, I *dragged* my mom and her husband to go see it tonight, while I'm visiting Alabama. (this makes time #4 for me) They didn't like it too much. Oh well, at least 3 more tickets were bought!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I went to see it again tonight with my dad. The theater was pretty full for a 5.20 showing, which was good. My dad can be pretty critical when it comes to movies so I really wanted to get his opinion on it.
He really liked the dialogue and the fact that it didn't take itself too seriously. He compared it to the dialogue of the Star Wars movies - which is so wooden - and said it was so much better. He also kept saying I'm a leaf on the wind, poor Wash! He thought that some of the animation with the ships fighting could have been better, to which I replied that wasn't the main focus of the movie.
He had no idea that Zoe and Wash were married. He liked how the character of Jayne was acted and also liked the fact that no one really "stole the show." hmm, what else.
Oh, he said he was thoroughly entertained throughout the entire movie, which as he said, is saying a lot for him.
As for my opinion on the second showing, I realized how much I like the opening sequence and how it just flows from one scene to the next. I also noticed how the crowd was very different from the crowd last time, especially when they laughed - or didn't. Most people who have seen the show think the line "It's ok to leave them there to die" is funny, but it didn't really get as much of a laugh today.
I generally don't like watching movies over and over because I'll get bored during one scene or another, but that didn't really happen with this one.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote: I would dispute this. Pretty much every scene in which the two of them interacted, or any scene in which Kaylee observed Simon or spoke about him, it was obvious that they cared for each other. I mean, blatantly obvious.
I would dispute that. Kaylee showed the exact same concern for Inara leaving as she did for Simon and River leaving. Are we to assume that Kaylee has a sexual thing for Inara as well? In fact, every time she mentioned being upset about Simon leaving, she mentioned Inara leaving like 2 seconds later. It wasn't blatently obvious. Kaylee spent the whole movie caring about the well being of EVERYONE equally, and never gave Simon any extra due.
The possible one exception to that rule is at the very beginning when the mule crashed into Serenity and Kaylee rushed to see if Simon was okay instead of asking Mal, who had just had a giant piece of metal almost crush him. But so much happens between that scene and the next time they even try to show a Kaylee/Simon scene that you might've forgotten it by then. I didn't remember it until I saw the movie again earlier today. It's a one liner.
It pales in comparison to the obvious SEXUAL tension of the show. That Kaylee cared about Simon is obvious in the movie sure, but that A. that feeling is mutual, and B. that it's a long standing issue isn't obvious at all until they throw it in your face at the end.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Kaylee spent the whole movie caring about the well being of EVERYONE equally, and never gave Simon any extra due.
Okay, keeping in mind I've only seen the film once, here are moments that stand out in my mind involving Kaylee and Simon:
1) Kaylee showing obvious concern when Simon is upset with Mal at the beginning of the film. 2) Kaylee rushing to Simon's side after the Mule crashes. 3) Kaylee watching Simon with obvious affection while he argues with Mal. 4) Simon and Kaylee almost kissing as he "permanently" leaves the ship. 5) Kaylee rebuking Mal for abandoning Simon, complaining that she hasn't had sex in over a year, throwing his treatment of Inara in his face, and storming out of the bar.
It's not taken as a "given" in the same way that the Zoe/Wash relationship is, but I think the movie actually goes out of its way in the first half to establish that Zoe and Wash are married and Kaylee has a thing for Simon (although they don't really make it obvious that Simon has a thing for Kaylee until he "leaves.") There are bits in there that, as I look at them, could serve no other narrative purpose but to establish those relationships.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I think Simon and Kaylee's feelings for eachother were blatantly obvious. I honestly don't see how this can be disputed, but ok...
I took my best friend to see it tonight, and he enjoyed it a lot. He hasn't seen the series (that will soon be remedied), so he was confused about a lot of the characters and their relationships with one another, but he thought it was a great movie overall. He also thinks River looks like a monkey.
This makes #3 for me. Had I more money, I'd be seeing it much, much more often.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Joss mentioned that when Kaylee said "Never fly in anything with a Capissen 38 engine, they fall right out of the sky," that's a mechanic's way of saying "I love you." Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My bad, I forgot my Mechanic-English dictionary at home when I went to see the movie.
The first time I went to see it, there were people with us who hadn't seen it. Other than Wash's death confusing them a bit, no one made a big deal out of Kaylee/Simon at all. They thought she was just pissed at Mal because he kept driving away crew members, and they thought she might have a crush on Simon, but they never got the fact that there was this big, long standing sexual tension between them. They just thought she was mostly sad that another crewmember was leaving, and that Simon was too busy worrying about River.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You may just have been surrounded by people, as I mentioned earlier, with Asperger's. Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I got to see it for the second time today, and took my girls (ages 12 and 9) with me. My younger daughter, I prepared a little bit by showing her the first part of the movie online from that link, and warning her a couple of minutes before Wash was killed. She's a very sensitive soul. However, she has seen the series, so she knew who everyone was and knew about reavers and all. My older daughter chastised me for telling her who died (before the movie), but she wanted to know. All in all, we very much enjoyed the movie. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:complaining that she hasn't had sex in over a year
Does that work out chronologically? Inara said in the episode with the refugee turned Reaver that she had been on Serenity for 9 months I thought. We know Kaylee was hired after having sex with the old mechanic under the engine
How long was it between the end of the show and the movie? 3 months? Yeah I guess that works out right, if that mechanic was the last guy she was with.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
But Simon and River were on the ship for eight months--didn't Mal say that?
Jen
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
How long was the crew flying with Serenity before Simon and River came on board?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:2) Kaylee rushing to Simon's side after the Mule crashes.
That was a pretty direct hint. Mal makes a big deal out of it and that scene always gets a huge laugh out of the crowd. It was not a small, nuanced moment. People were meant to catch that connection between Kaylee and Simon, and I think most people did.
My friend told me that Kaylee not only ignores Mal, but she steps over a slightly injured Jayne to get to Simon. I'm not sure if that is true, I'll try and see if I can catch that during my next viewing.
quote:5) Kaylee rebuking Mal for abandoning Simon, complaining that she hasn't had sex in over a year, throwing his treatment of Inara in his face, and storming out of the bar.
Right before the awesome "twixt my nethers" line, I think Kaylee also said "captain could'a made them family, instead of driving them off, 'stead of keeping Simon from seeing I was there, when I carried such a torch."
Captain Tightpants retorts: "You knew he was going to leave.... and how do you know how he feels? He's got River to worry on. But he still could've shown you. If I truly wanted someone bad enough, wouldn't be a thing in the 'verse that could stop me from going to her."
Based on this conversation I think the audience can easily figure out that Kaylee really likes Simon.
quote:My bad, I forgot my Mechanic-English dictionary at home when I went to see the movie.
Fair enough. The line itself is fairly cryptic. But Kaylee's emotions were pretty transparent when she gave that warning. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Alright, I'll grant you Kaylee then, I don't remember that exchange so clearly, but now that I think about it, you're right. People paying attention to the movie should have picked up on it then.
Where does Simon show his feelings for her? We know that he likes her too, we always have.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Actually, I agree with you there. I think Simon's feelings for Kaylee wasn't apparent throughout most of the movie.
But that's ok. The payoff in the end still works as long as the audience know that Kaylee liked Simon and understand that Simon's feelings for Kaylee were somewhat obscured by his devotion to River.
Don't forget that Simon's feelings for Kaylee wasn't crystal clear during the series either. We know he feels affection for her, but it was usually left unexplored due to his concern for his sister and his general awkwardness with women.
[ October 09, 2005, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Okay, I'll drop my argument about Kaylee/Simon.
But I stand fast by my objections to Book, Inara and Mal.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I agree with a lot of your criticisms regarding Book and Inara's diminished roles in the movie.
*novelization spoilers*
In the novelization (which was based mainly on the script), there were two scenes that I thought would've enhanced the movie greatly.
1. There was a dinner scene on Haven where the Serenity crew ate with Book and the other townsfolk. Jayne gave Book a box of rare Cuban Cigars. Hiroko, the kid Kaylee hugged in the movie, sat on Kaylee's lap the whole time throughout dinner.
2. There was a scene at the companion training house that showed another companion teasing Inara about rumors of her having "fallen in love with a pirate."
Heck, I wish the movie were nine hours long so each character can get their due. But what can you do? Oh yeah, watch the movie again so the series comes back to TV. Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I just saw it again. I caught this beautiful nugget of dialogue in the second viewing (please forgive my paraphrasing):
Mal: You think she'll hold up? Zoe: She's been beat up pretty good, but she'll fly true.
Now tell me Zoe isn't mourning for Wash, in her own way. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The diminished roles didn't bother me so much really. Inara did what she had to do, she wasn't integral to the plot. But they could have at least spent a scene, 10 minutes, explaining who she was and why she was there.
Actually, I think the best way to introduce Inara and Book would take less than three minutes. If Mal had done the introduction, only slightly edited, things would make a lot more sense later on:
"Earth that was could no longer sustain our numbers, there were so many. We found a new solar system, with dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Each was terraformed, a process taking decades, to support human life, to be new earths. The central planets formed the Alliance, ruled by an interplanetary parliament. The Alliance was a beacon of civilization to many, but some folk saw things differently, and wanted to break away, refusing Alliance control. The war was devastating.
When it was over, I got myself a ship, and found a crew. We come from different backgrounds, some fought in the war, some fight for the money. We even had ourselves a Shepard from Haven, and a bonafide Companion for awhile. Everything changed when Simon and River came on board."
Not sure really what he would say after that, maybe just end it there, but as he is talking about River, the shot could flip us back to River as a young child. Her dialogue doesn't really fit with what we knew about her from the show. Remember when she was a kid, on that one ep in Firefly, she was playing Independents and Alliance or whatever, and she was on the side of the Alliance. Kind of like playing Buggers and Spacemen in Ender, and the Independents were the Buggers.
I think it makes less sense for her to be pro-independent in the movie. But anyway, her dialogue could change to just in general sounding like a smarty pants, and then have the teacher jab the pen into her head again, and then continue on as normal. And now when we hit Book, we already know he has an attachment to the crew that goes further than just being a safe harbor. It also builds a little excitement waiting to see if these characters will show up or not.
Plus I think it would be more emotionally powerful to have Mal, having fought for the Brown Coats, talk about the war. The voice he spoke with when talking to the Operative after Haven was destroyed was haunting and full of emotion. That'd be a great narrative voice for the opener, rather than the draining emotionally void voice of the chick who does the real opening.
Just my two cents.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
River was dreaming about the school. I think she's talking as much about them meddling with her as she is about meddling with the outer worlds. I bet that little exchange didn't actually happen to River when she was a young girl.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
She looks younger in that scene than she did when she was on Firefly at at the Tam Estate. I don't think that was THE school.
Either way, it's an academic argument at best, and really the most minor piece of my point.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: I just saw it again. I caught this beautiful nugget of dialogue in the second viewing (please forgive my paraphrasing):
Mal: You think she'll hold up? Zoe: She's been beat up pretty good, but she'll fly true.
Now tell me Zoe isn't mourning for Wash, in her own way.
I caught that exchange when I saw it with my Hubby and I got all chocked up! Then I had to explain it to him that it was her not just the ship they were referring too. Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I had to explain that to Tony as well. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It occurs to me that a LOT of the dialogue in this movie is not meant to be read only literally. In fact, you'd probably miss quite a lot of the film if you always assumed the characters were only talking about what they were saying.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
As far as I could tell, all of the scenes with River at that school came from somewhere else, they weren't actually hers. Right after the first one, it cuts to the scene of the doctor telling Simon that they do their best work while they are dreaming and that's when they can tamper with the subconscious.
You also see it the second time they cut to the school sequence when she sees the teacher flicker and has all the Reaver images and screaming around her.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Tom- I was just writing what you wrote but then I saw that you had already beat me too it. I strongly agree. A lot of what is said in the movie carries more meaning than what is actually said and if you focus only on the words that are said you miss half the film.
That's what's so great about it. However, it could also a flaw in which people see violence and they listen to only what's being said- they turn their brains off.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I watched it for the second time last night. There was a line where River said something about old men drowning in blood, even though they hadn't touched it. Seems to me that she's talking about the members of Parliament that she came in contact with. They did no killing themselves, but they're responsible for the deaths of millions.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Definitely. I kept mentally writing papers on the metaphors, allusions, and symbols in Serenity while I was watching it.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote: The idea at the core of Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus is what the author calls "the absurd": Human beings are driven to seek greater meaning and purpose in a universe where, for the good and wicked alike, all roads lead to the grave. And Whedon has a powerful absurdist sensibility. As the film's third act begins, just as the crew has apparently escaped a tough situation, a major character delivers a comic line and, just as the audience is beginning to laugh, is abruptly, brutally, pointlessly killed. It is not a noble sacrifice, not a defeat in battle; there are no stirring, poignant last words. Like so many actual deaths, though very few dramatic ones, it is utterly unexpected and serves no purpose—beyond, perhaps unsettling the Whedon-novice's complacent assumption that main characters can't be killed off arbitrarily. The laugh line is, appropriately enough, "I am a leaf on the wind." (It's funny in context.)
In the face of an absurd universe—one lacking transcendent, factory-installed meanings—we are compelled to create our own. After explaining that The Operative is dangerous precisely because he is a "believer," ship's preacher Shepherd Book tells Mal "I don't care what you believe. Just believe," echoing the proto-existentialist theologian Søren Kierkegaard, who stressed the centrality of passionate commitment, "leaps of faith," in religion....
For the attentive viewer, though, Serenity is not just a string of good chase scenes, but an "absurd reasoning," a surprisingly profound meditation on what freedom means—both in politics and, perhaps more importantly, as a source of personal meaning.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I love that essay Beren. Three cheers.
Dude... I love that whole website!! Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Whedon's comments for Objects in Space is one of my favorite DVD commentary tracks of all time. I was pretty excited when I found someone else geeking out over the same subject matter.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
On my last viewing I cought something. Just after they barnswallow the mule, a reaver pops up and they kill him. River says (and I'm paraphrasing): "He didn't lie down. They never lie down." meaning that the rest of the population of Miranda did just lie down and die -- all except those that went on to become reavers.
I'm sure this is old news to most of you, but I thought it was pretty interesting.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I do find it interesting. I saw the movie for a second time and still didn't get that line.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
The one line I still don't understand is in River's brain. She wakes up on Serenity, handcuffed to the floor and we hear a vicious voice say "cut them down!" before it cuts to her waking up again. Am I hearing the line right? Does that bring us Firefly fans back to Bushwhacked when the Reavers left all those people hanging from the ceiling? Is there any significance to it?
Oh, and another thought: This is how I heard Book's last words:
Book: "River..." Mal: (screams to others) "Come on!" Book to Mal: "I don't care what you believe. Just believe anything she..."
Does that sound right to you? I've been taking it to mean that Book wanted Mal to believe what River was saying, to believe in her and believe in the cause of saving her. It makes sense for Mal then to decide to run Reaver space and get to Miranda. (This is also to piss the Alliance off because they just killed all of his friends.) Did you guys hear Book's lines like that? Is there a script somewhere?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Narnia, I've wondered that every time I've seen the movie, I still don't know what it means.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
My 2.578 cents:
Reavers: The thing you must remember about Reavers is that they enjoy inflicting pain and causing fear in their victims. They are the ultimate terrorists. Why didn't they kill off the inhabitants of Miranda? Because the unfeeling, uncaring inhabitants did not scream or fight or cry. They did not care enough to be afraid. This was no fun, so the Reavers grabbed all the vehicles they could and headed for more tasty treats of the feeling/fighting others.
This is also why they don't pick on each other. What fun is there in tormenting someone who does not know how to cry and whimper?
They do some minor recruiting, perhaps they have enough PAX to give it to those who they capture. If the PAXified rebel, they join the crew of that boat. If they don't, they are starved to death as being neither fun to hurt nor worth keeping alive.
.
Walsh's death did something important for the final battle scene. I went into the movie assuming that this would be the rebirth of the series as a long list of great movies.
This is the history that Whedon had to overcome if there was going to be any tension in that fight scene. Without tension its just another body count waiting to happen.
Walsh dies and suddenly that isn't taken for granted anymore.
It was standard movie practice for River to wipe out the gang of Reavers, and I was expecting that, until Walsh died, then River went into mental overload.
Suddenly everyone was vulnerable.
I could not guess who would survive.
That makes some darn nice moviemaking.
. Zoe pregnant next time? Quite possible, but not in the coincidental way. They have a brilliant doctor on board who also cared about Walsh. A little gene manipulation, or a prepared frozen sperm sample, and Zoe would be escaping grief via motherhood.
She would make one interesting mother, and one even more interesting pregnant woman. Add River as birthing coach and we are talking good movie.
.
Here is my prediction of the opening scene of the next movie.
Mal is relaxing over a bowl of soup in the dining area. Jayne enters:
Jayne: Mal, I have a problem. Mal: What could that possibly be? Jayne: We have had a wild run of good luck recently. The last four jobs have been profitable and easy; no one tried cheating us; no one has tried hunting us; heck, no one has even seriously tried killin us. I feel like I ain't earnin my pay. Mal: Jayne, only you would take this here good fortune and make yourself miserable over it. If it does you any good, I am sure that any moment now someone is going to come walking through that door with a problem.
(Both turn toward the door to look. Nothing happens. Pause. Then from the other end of the room Kayle walks in carrying a part)
Kayle: We got ourselves a problem. Mal: See. What is it? kayle: The sprocket valve done broke off of intake number two. Mal: How in the (chinese curse) did that happen. Kayle: Well, you know how I do enjoy workin on the engine. It is plum near a bit too exciting. So when Simon came down to see how I was doing, well one thing led to another, and the Sprocket Valve done got caught between my....(she begins pointing to a delicate part of her anatomy) Mal: (chinese curse) girl. I do not need to know this. Jayne: (Previously bored, now looking interested) I do. Enter Zoe & Simon from the bridge area: Zoe: Mal, we got ourselves a problem. Mal: You too? Zoe: (Looks at the crew assembled, and decides to make it public). I'm pregnant. (Stunned silence) Jayne: How? Zoe: With the help of the doc here.... Kayle: (Heartbroke) Simon!!!! Zoe: With the help of the doc here, I'm gonna have Walsh's kid. Mal: (Starts to say something, several times, comes up blank) Inara: (From off screen) Mal, we have a problem. Mal: (Turning to face where Inara enters)(Mumbles)Thank God. Inara enters followed by a hooded man. Inara steps aside. The man removes the hood. It is the villian from the first movie who's name escapes me, but now he is where a shepherds collar. Immiediately everyone but Inara draws a gun and aims it at him. Villian: I have a message...from Book. Mal: (Stands and steps forward.) Books dead. Villian: Its an old message.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Here's one interesting review from Greg Weisman, the creator of my favorite animated series "Gargoyles."
But it made me sad, and not just for the obvious reasons that two great characters died... although their deaths are certainly major contributors to the overall cause of my sadness.
But I'm sad because in order to make this film an event -- a motion picture -- in its own right and not just a glorified episode of the series... Joss had to blow a big chunk of the Firefly wad. Yes, the tale was great, but wouldn't it have been even greater spread out across anywhere from 7 to 29 more episodes of the series?
Joss, who's next project is the WONDER WOMAN feature, seems to have graduated to movies. And my overall response is... keeping in mind I'm a huge worshipful fan... what a WASTE!!! This is a guy BORN for series television. For taking characters and building them through nuance and familiarity and suprise. For taking universes and creating them, populating them with myth and incident and humanity. For taking stories and weaving them into intricate, surprising and satisfying tapestries.
In movies -- at least in good ones -- you can get a taste of this. But just a taste. In series television, all this stuff is JOB ONE.
So where's my next FIREFLY/SERENITY fix to come from?
And please don't try to tell me there weren't more stories to tell with Book or Wash. And how will those stories come to light now?
It was a great movie. But... I am left with overwhelming sadness over what an even GREATER series it was and would have been.
Quibbles:
The rescue of River doesn't seem to match up with the version we had been told before. I thought others freed River and deposited her with Simon. I didn't think he was a one-man rescue squad.
I found Simon's deactivation word to be a bit hard to buy. If he knew that word, why wouldn't he have used it in "Objects in Space" when she was waving that gun around? It's not like he knew he'd have to save it for a real massacre.
Some of the extra production values in the film got on my nerves a bit. I'd have rather had MORE old west and less extra goop. But that's just me being a curmdudgeon, I suppose.
If you're the Operative, and you know Serenity's "havens" do you really scorch the Earth... leaving them with no place to go that you're aware of? Or do you use that manpower to stake out these locations... and THEN attack? At this point, he had to know that taking this action would only piss Mal off more.
And what was the point of the Operative killing off River's "doctor" at the beginning. Sure, the dude slipped up. But he posed no threat. And one has to assume that his mind -- pride aside -- presented a valuable resource. So what exactly are we punishing him for? Frankly, the real reason to kill him is to (a) establish the Operative and his own sin of pride and (b) to set up Mal's non-death at the end.
The movie was called Serenity, but she felt like way less of a character in this then in nearly ANY episode of the series. (Although I never liked the title FIREFLY for the series. Too obscure.)
I had hoped to see a bit more of the wonderful population of the series. At the VERY least the guys with the blue gloves. But I guess they all had to make way for what was there.
When Book died, I was totally bummed. I kept thinking, why didn't he go with them to Inara. Then he could have returned to Haven to find the massacre and survived it. I felt like there was so much more to get from his character. I hated to see him go.
When Wash died, I was stunned. I hadn't necessarily expected either of these characters to die. I had done a fairly good job at NOT spoiling things for myself. But the death of Book seemed to qualify as the sacrificial lamb. Like the death of the Magus in "Avalon". So I was really caught off guard by Wash's death.
Now don't get me wrong. They were both good deaths for the characters. Heroic and with strength. Not cheap in any way. And structurally right and sound.
But ... well... see above...
So how exactly did those blast doors open? The Reavers were not supposed to be able to open them from their side. I'm perfectly willing to buy the idea that River is smart enough to over-ride whatever Kaylee had done and open them herself. But when they open, she's standing there in her super-hero bleeding-axe pose - not even standing next to the control panel. So who opened those doors?
Was there always a co-pilot's seat? I don't remember ever seeing that before the moment we see River sitting there.
So do we think that Zoe is pregnant?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
(psst... it's Wash, not Walsh)
And I definately see the message from Book thing as a possibility.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Dan, I love your opening script. It made me laugh loudly. Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: She would make one interesting mother, and one even more interesting pregnant woman. Add River as birthing coach and we are talking good movie.
I would love to see that.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
River was hilarious in Heart of Gold. Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I'm wondering if there will be #2. It hasn't been a huge blockbuster (which I don't understand, since it is a great movie...and has great reviews). I guess we will have to wait to see what happens with the rest of the run, and how it does on DVD.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
I like the notion of pregnancy via artificial insemination. I am hesitantly willing to buy that Zoe may be unknowingly pregnant in Serenity; I cannot believe that a knowingly pregnant Zoe would have attempted to commit suicide-by-reavers, griefstricken or no.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Aren't they pretty? I think she should do Inara next.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Woo, I really like the Zoe one. There's such sadnesss and longing in her face. It's as if she's thinking about that beautiful baby she would've had with Wash.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Forget Inara. I want her to do a portrait of me. Those are awesome.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
My sister actually did the Zoe one for the Browncoat fan art challenge (back before she'd seen the movie). She was really put out when she saw the crap that was posted up there with it. But no worries. She does it in her free time anyway.
Edit: JT, I'll tell her you liked them. I love to show off her stuff. Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Yeah, those are wonderful. Zoe is perfect.
And Dan Raven, I think your script is ingenious. I laughed through the whole thing.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
quote:Book: "River..." Mal: (screams to others) "Come on!" Book to Mal: "I don't care what you believe. Just believe anything she..."
What I think I heard was: Book to Mal: "I don't care what you believe. Just believe it." (In other words, believe in something.)
When Mal and the Operative face off at Mr. Universe's place, the Operative asks Mal if he believes in what he's doing enough to die for it. He says that he does. I think that's what Book meant. He knew they were facing an Operative - someone who (as Inara put it) was a true believer in what he was doing. Without that amount of conviction, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to beat him.
(edited to take out extra word in my version of what Book said. I was tired, okay?)
[ October 11, 2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: CaySedai ]
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
My friend who hasn't seen the TV series saw it and said that "apart from the obvious Han Solo rip-off and the annoying fake old-fashioned dialogue that popped up every now and then, it was okay."
Huh.
I think it'd be great for Zoe to have a baby. We need a new big problem for the crew, now that the reavers are pretty much out of the picture, and the Alliance is having problems of its own, and I think a baby would be perfect. Of course, it'd be better yet if it were a toddler, so maybe Joss Whedon can figure something out for that. I think a baby would create an excellent dynamic on the ship, just generally. Everyone would adore it and be frightfully good to it, and Kaylee would think it was the best thing ever, and Mal would pretend he didn't like it but really he would, and Inara would be responsible for it when they went off on a job--yep, that'd be great.
Jen
P.S. Also, I've thought about it extensively and decided that I'd really rather have more seasons of episodes than have more movies. It's not that I didn't absoutely love the movie, because I did, but if the network gave Whedon freedom with the characters and whatnot--I'd rather have the show.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't think the reavers or the Alliance are out of the picture. Not by a long shot. There might even be a full-on rebellion, and we could see Sgt. Reynolds again...
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Before I decided I'd never get it written in the time allotted, I was considering a Serenity novel for my NaNoWriMo book. The plot?
In the wake of the Alliance scandals, some of the more militant Browncoats are looking to rise again. And they want the man who did as much as anyone to keep the battle going...
Still might write it, but not right away.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
I would hope that if Firefly were extended and reborn as another series, or if we are graced with another Serenity film, that we might get more from Wash and Book in flashbacks.
I nearly peed my pants when I watched the Firefly DVDs with the episode containing the flashback to Wash inspecting the bridge of Serenity with his Hawaiian shirt and cheesy mustache...
There could me many interesting flashbacks containing Book's past as well and the secrets to his very likely connection to the Alliance..
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ladies (and certain gentlemen)...take a look at these:
That picture of Summer is my favorite.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
Summer looks beautiful. I love her so. Where's the lovesick graemlin?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Wow. Summer really does look lovely in that picture.
I also looked at some of the other blog entries. The one on Asians in Firefly was interesting. I'm just curious...does Kaylee look like she might have some Asian ancestry? That's what I thought when I first saw her.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Did you watch the series in order? If you did, then the first time you saw Kaylee she was wearing a very traditional Chinese dress and carrying a cute Chinese umbrella. That might explain your impression of her.
That blog belongs to an old buddy of mine from college. We went to see Serenity together last week and we argued over Inara's ethnic background. What do you guys think?
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Oh I *like* the photo of Sean/Simon. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Pictures of assorted hotties (either gender) should really also be linked in non-spoiler threads to provide extra draw for anyone who's still on the fence about seeing Serenity.
Not that there's probably many such people on Hatrack. Just sayin'.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
The actress is Brazilian. I read a script that said that all the color leaves Inara's face or something like that, and then Whedon says, Well, not all of it, she's future Brazilian so there's still a hue to it, but anyway she goes white.
Jen
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Thanks Jen.
Before reading the script did you think she might be part Indian or Middle Eastern?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
So I've been thinking about Joss Whedon's method of killing of characters and I think it sort of strikes me as a cheat as he uses the SURPRISE of the sudden character's death to emotionally get to us. Why are we more saddened by Wash's death than Book's? Because we were totally unprepared for it. Now take Book's--from the moment we see the scorched village we already suspect the worst. But with Wash, it was damn near traumatizing and I felt the same away when I was younger and watching the first season of Angel as it aired. My younger sister and I enjoyed the show and especially loved Doyle--then he died and we're like, oh god why!?!?? Yes the stakes are big and his worlds dangerous but surely there must be another way Whedon can reinforce these ideas without continually killing off characters we adore.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I finally saw it yesterday. I had to play hookey from work so my wife and I could see it while my son was in daycare. We absolutely have had no luck finding a babysitter.
It was incredible. It was one of the very few movies that I have seen that I actually want to see again before it leaves the theaters.
That said, where are the trailors? I waited til I saw it before I started urging people to see it. No one had any idea what I was talking about.
I just had two guys say "Serenity? That sounds like a chick-flick."
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
"I just had two guys say "Serenity? That sounds like a chick-flick."
I recall reading somewhere that female FOX executives responded more favorably to Firefly than their male peers...
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
There's a girl in my English tutorial who looks a bit like Inara. Same facial structure, same eyes, same hair. It was rather bizarre.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, I think "Serenity" is sadly a poor name for the movie, even though it's actually a wonderful name for the movie. If you know what I mean.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
It's poor from a marketing standpoint, but rather apt from a story standpoint.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Beren et al, do you remember which thread I had posted those awesome new pics of the Firefly ladies? It was one of the zillions of Firefly threads a couple weeks ago...*looks*
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
When I see those I have to remind myself that I'm looking at pictures of the actors, not the characters. Jewel is beautiful in those pictures, but they are not pictures of Kaylee. Summer is stunning, but it's clearly Summer in the pictures, not River. I have to admit it makes me feel kinda funny seeing the actors out of character -- funny in an uncomfortable sort of way. Reminds me unpleasantly that the characters are fictitious. And I work so hard to keep my delusionary world intact . . .
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I finally got my Serenity soundtrack in the mail from Amazon....
I just love it to pieces. It's so. mmmm. What's the word? It's so...busy? Complex? Dense? There are tons of things going on, but the composer set it so that you could hear each and every one of them clearly and cleanly. Thrilling. It's wonderful.
In fact, the only problem I have with it has nothing to do with the music. On the CD case, track 19 says "Jane & Zoe/Final Battle." What's with spelling Jayne's name wrong?
S'ok. I'll forgive them.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ok. One more problem with this soundtrack. It's only 50 minutes long. What's up with that? Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
That's it. I have the afternoon off. I'm going to see this movie again RIGHT NOW.
See you later. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: Beren et al, do you remember which thread I had posted those awesome new pics of the Firefly ladies? It was one of the zillions of Firefly threads a couple weeks ago...*looks*
Whoa. Nice pictures.
I'll be in my bunk.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
There's a one minute interview of OSC at the latest edition of The Signal, one of the best Serenity/Firefly podcasts out there.
OSC's part starts at 18:00. It starts with a recap of OSC's written review (which we've all read), and then at 19:20-20:50 we hear an excerpt of OSC describing what makes Whedon's storytelling so awesome. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ah. Just got back from my 5th time. Love it. Still.
New thing I noticed this time: At the funeral, Simon has a cane. When he and Kaylee are...um...kissing at the end, he's in perfectly good health. Gives us a better idea of how much time passed between the action and the take off at the end (for those who were saying that it took them only a minute to get over Wash.) Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I didn't notice the cane, but I figured it was a significant amount of time between the battle and the takeoff scene at the end just because of the amount of repairs that had to be done to Serenity.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Oh, and I would argue that Book was not an agent.
I believe, or if I were writing this I would make, Book be the strategist behind the battle of Serenity, on the Government's side.
Like Ender, he was a strategist who planned the battle, but only later when he saw the death and destruction did he join the Shepherds.
Still, he is considered a war hero and given A-1 treatment when he shows his card.
And then to make things worse, he suspects that the Battle of Serenity went too well for them. One of the high ranking Browncoats betrayed his people in order to kill off as many troublemakers as possible.
This would be the info that Book would leave Mal after Book's death, that would send them all onto the next movie.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Mmmm. Nah. I still think he was an operative. How else would he know that they even exist?
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
A little bird told him?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
The same way the doctor did?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Narn, he knew because he was an Admiral in charge of the battle, not some lowly lt. He knew of them, and other things as well, and when the reality of what his war games were doing with people hit him, he found God.
But I have more. I do love playing with Whedon's universe.
In my movie, Wash was a pilot for the alliance. He was at the battle of Serenity. The movie would have many flashback moments where Admiral Book is discussing the battle, and the guy who sold out the Brown Coats, where we see just a glimpse, not even sure it is him, of Wash in the background. The two never meet while in the Alliance.
We have scenes of Alliance Pilot Wash talking where the Admiral walks in the background, or even boards his shuttle.
Better, imagine cut scenes where we see the series scenes of Mal shooting the Alliance ships down, with scenes of Wash flying and firing one of those ships, mumbling "I am a leaf on the wind"
After the war, Wash gets out of the Alliance. His commander asks him what he will be doing. He says, "I'm going to find me the smallest peice of junk ship and fly nothing but sweet safe milk runs for the rest of my days. Frankly, sir, I'd die if you put me back in a ship with a gun on it."
Everyone remembers, when they put a gun on Serenity, he dies.
Of course he tells Zoe. Again in a flashback scene.
Now imagine the scene where The Villian from the last movie (I forget his name, the @#$@#$) is talking to Zoe and the rest as they are on their way to find/confront the traitor of Serenity (working name for the movie?).
Villian: I am glad that you are having Wash child. When I read in your files that you, such a dedicated Browncoat, had married an Alliance ace pilot, it reminded that love.... Mal: What? (Quiet for one beat) Villian: Oh dear. Didn't you know? Mal: (Calmly angered) Know what. Villian: That Wash was ex-Alliance. Fought with distinction during the war. Why he even fought at... Zoe: Mal, I won't stand no bad talk about Wash. He loved me and I him. That's all the history that matters twixt us. Mal: (Chinese Curse) it is. Did you know he was ex-alliance. Zoe: (Pauses as if looking for a way out, then defiantly stares straight at Mal) Of course I did. We were married. I told him everything and he told me. It weren't none of your business. Mal: (Stands and throws something) (Chinese curse)it wasn't. (He storms out)
Of course he doesn't blame Wash for being ex-alliance--well maybe a little. He is mad at Zoe for keeping secrets.
Yeah, I could have fun with this story.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I forget his name, the @#$@#$
If it's any consolation, he didn't have one. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
My stories main villian, the man who betrayed the browncoats at the battle of Serenity, would most likely be now, the one politician who has a chance of ousting those in power in the Alliance congress. This leaves Mal the tough choice of destroying the man responsible for the defeat at the "Battle of Serenity" or of destroying the Alliance.
What would Mal choose?
In my ending, Mal walks away, being beaten again for the greater good.
River, however, has other ideas.
The old traitor has a lust on for River--promising her power and position, so when Mal and the crew walk out, River says she wants to stay.
They feel betrayed and leave.
She does her whirly girly slice and dice dance. She kills everyone in the room including the guards--all with the VIllian's sword, making it appear that the Alliance people killed thier competitor. He dies, but is a martyr that could lead to the downfall of the alliance. She then leaves out a window.
The crew are walking back to Serenity through a corridor when the see her calmly standing in front of them.
Mal: I thought you were staying. Simon: (runs up and gives her a hug)You ok? River: I changed me mind. Zoe (holding up the hem of her dress, shows Mal and Simon the only drop of blood on her.) Simon: (Smile drops) Oh (chinese curse). Mal: Everyone, walk very quickly. Now.
Dang this is fun.
Posted by HonoreDB (Member # 1214) on :
If Wash's ace piloting were the reason the Independents couldn't send air support, that combined with his random death could make Wash in general a symbol of why Mal lost his faith.
One of the rules of a Joss Whedon story: believing in something greater than yourself is generally bad, but letting go is agony and weakens you.
My Book story: Book was an Operative who became a Shepherd as a cover identity only, but in the process had his faith in the Alliance shaken by exposure to religion.
His first assignment after leaving the Abbey was assigned to retrieve River; that's why he wasn't paying attention to the destinations of ships in the pilot; he was just looking for which one Simon was likely to choose/had chosen. Serenity, as a smuggler's ship, seemed like a likely choose, so he chatted with Kayley until Simon showed up.
Unfortunately, by the time Simon's box showed up, Malcolm and co. had too, so Book knew he couldn't steal the box without making a scene. So he boarded the ship. He then discovered that Dobson was a fed and made common cause with him.
Then Dobson shot Kayley, and it was the beginning of the end of Book's faith in the Alliance. He had just seen how innocent and good Kayley was. Reflexively he took Dobson down. He repented immediately and did his best to salvage the mission. However, when he came to rescue Dobson, the lawman was furious at him and unsure of his loyalties, so he knocked him out and beat him gratuitously. Book started worrying that the Alliance turned men into Dobson--that maybe authority inevitably turned men into monsters. His agony in his scene with Inara at the end is mostly at the fact that he is considering betraying the Alliance. He never tells any of the crew the story because there's an off chance he might get shot, keelhauled, or just kicked off at the nearest port. Except maybe he told Jayne after Ariel, and that's why they've bonded so much by the end. Jayne came to him to try to deal with the unfamiliar concept of guilt, and the conversation included the lines River percieves in Objects in Space: "I got stupid. The money was too good." "I don't give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?"
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
Wash was in jail during the Independence War, where he did shadow puppets.
It's in the commentaries, for 'The Message' I think.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
I'm not sure I could buy that half the crew just happened to be at Serenity Valley. Mal and Zoe make sense, since she was and always will be Mal's strong right hand, but I doubt Wash would be anywhere near the war. He's a great pilot, but he's not a fighter. His speciality is the clever getaway, not bombing runs. As for Book... well, it's conceivable, but I like the operative theory better. It doesn't fall prey to the "tiny universe" problem that plagued the Star Wars prequels (I mean, honestly, Anakin knew both R2 *and* C-3PO?!), neatly fits into what we know of Book's past history, and is strongly hinted at in the movie's dialogue.
Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
I'm going to have a movie marathon with my boyfriend tomorrow. Wallace and Grommit and (for the 5th time) Serenity. Whoo!
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Just saw it again. I'll probably stop at 10 (I'm at 6 now), but maybe not. I'm trying to take advantage of it still being in theaters close by. I'm afraid it won't last much longer.
Coolest brand new thing that I noticed this time. From the time that Mal leaves the cockpit at the very beginning of the movie to the time he leaves Simon in the cargo bay and River says "I know. We're going for a ride"...it's all one shot without interruption. Think of all that happens in that shot! We meet every member of the crew, we see the entire ship from stem to stern, and we have several arguments with Jayne, Simon, Kaylee, et al.
What's even cooler is that we see almost every room. Jayne is coming out of his room so we know that those must be living quarters. Mal storms down to the engine room (through the kitchen area, falling on the way so we get an extra good look) where we meet our mechanic. He and Simon then head down to the infirmary where there is a fantastic shot of the 'lounge' couches. After that, they head up into the cargo bay where we see Zoe and Jayne loading the mule that's hanging above. And we end on our River.
All in one shot. Not a single cut. Amazing.
I love this movie!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah, that whole first scene is unbelievable. I didn't notice that it was a whole scene the first time, then read that it was and I watched it and it is. When I pointed it out to my friend she wouldn't believe it!
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Joss commented on that one steadycam shot in the SciFi network movie special about two weeks ago.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
According to the Serenity Visual Companion (heh heh heh... err, sorry), it's actually two shots, because each of the ship's two stories was one set, so they shot the first half on one set and the second half separately, on the other set. The whip-pan from Mal to Simon as they walk through one of the corridors is used to mask the transition.
Still pretty darned impressive, though. Joss likes his one-ers.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
The one-shot sequence at the beginning is really good. For another good one-shot scene watch The Player starring Tim Robbins. The opening credits run over a very long one-shot scene at a movie studio, which includes a peek into a window where two writers are talking about how nobody does long one-shot scenes anymore.
Edit since Tarrsk's post: I suspected that whip-pan might hide an edit, but didn't mention it because I wasn't positive and didn't want to dampen anyone else's fun. Thanks for the confirmation, though.
--Enigmatic
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
I'm going to see it tomorrow again. Only the second time but I'm bringing someone who may not have seen it otherwise. I'm really excited, I've been wanting to see it again for awhile, but the people I was with the first time don't really want to see it again and no one else I know thought it looks good. Finally, I found someone.
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
One things that's been bothering me...After the first time I saw it, as I was walking out of the theaters one of my friends commented how the movie was very cliched and how it wasn't really innovative at all. Another one said all Science Fiction was like that, everything in SF is the same. Do most people really think that? How do I defend my favorite genre?
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
A lot of people do think it's all the same. It's usually people who don't look too deep into the stories. They see spaceships and say "Yep, that's just like any other SF." I'm not sure there's anything you can say to defend it from people who don't look past the thinnest surface.
All movies are the same. Every movie I've ever scene had light projected at a screen. That's such a cliche. Most of them had people talking, too. Been there, done that.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Yeah, I've had people say that about Science Fiction. It's like saying all love stories have someone falling in love.
Well DUH.
People are crazy. Sometimes they can only see innovation when it's shoved down their throats.
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
I remember one time I was talking with my cousin and I brought up the book "Stranger on a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein. I started to explain what it was about, and the minute he heard "Mars" he rolled his eyes and pretty much ignored the rest. I mean, I could see where these people are coming from if they've never read alot of SF and seen how diverse and original it can be, but I don't understand how people could write off a whole genre as "space ships and mars stuff" when they've never even read more than a couple books from it. Know what I mean?
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
Uhh, sorry if I just derailed this thread...
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
Want me to re-rail it?
I had a dream about Mal last night and it was a goood dream at that.
Okay, not so much a re-rail. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I had my TA in one of my classes tell us that everyone who liked Sci Fi was a UFO conspiracy theorist. When I argued with him he just said something along the lines of, "oh, you read sci fi, too" and then looked patronizingly amused. It was so frustrating!
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
quote:I had a dream about Mal last night and it was a goood dream at that. [Blushing]
Man, what IS it about Mal running around in everyone's dreams lately?? Seems like nearly all of the Firefly-for-fun community on LJ has been dreaming of him lately (myself included, a very, very good dream indeed. )
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
"I had my TA in one of my classes tell us that everyone who liked Sci Fi was a UFO conspiracy theorist. When I argued with him"
I'd probably just say something like "I like Sci Fi, and I don't believe in aliens" and just stare at him, waiting for him to come up with a comeback People like that usually aren't worth wasting intelligent comments on.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well to be fair to the people who would say that "Firefly is just like any other sci fi" it does bear a lot of similarities to other sci fi shows.
I told one of my profs last week that if he saw one movie between now and Narnia (he hates movies and thinks they all mostly suck, but sees them occasionally) that he should see Serenity. To which he responded "is it one of those sci fi shows about a family in space like Farscape?"
I said I hadn't seen Farscape, but like five other people who were at the table jumped in to throw out Farscape comparisons. I was hard pressed to defend against that because on the surface, and a little below the surface, that's exactly what it is. I'd need a Farscape fan here to defend the differences, cause I don't know them.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:"I had my TA in one of my classes tell us that everyone who liked Sci Fi was a UFO conspiracy theorist. When I argued with him"
I'd probably just say something like "I like Sci Fi, and I don't believe in aliens" and just stare at him, waiting for him to come up with a comeback People like that usually aren't worth wasting intelligent comments on.
Or just ask him if he's proud to have come up with his very own conspiracy theory. Us sci-fi fans, always getting together in secret to track the latest UFO sightings. . . .
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
The main difference between Farscape and Firefly is that Farscape has aliens and advanced technology. The ships and guns and medical proccedures are things that are far beyond our current level of tech, whereas Firefly still uses projectile weapons, ships made out of metal that need a mechanic and fuel, and medicine and hospitals that, while advance to us, are recognizable.
Then, there are the aliens. In Farscape an astronaut from our world is thrown through a wormhole and picked up by a ship full of criminals escaping from a large, overpowering system. They spend much of the series avoiding or actively hiding from them, much like the crew of Firefly does from the Alliance. And some of the Peacekeepers are actively hunting them, to get their hands on John, like some of the Alliance is actively hunting River. Like Firefly, it is strongly character driven. There are people on the boat who fight, people who fall in love, and people who are fighting because they really want to fall in love but can't quite make it there. There are a lot of snappy one-liners. If you become a fan of the show, you care about what happens to these people.
There really are some similarities, if you've looking for them. Especially that they were both screwed over by their respective networks and cancelled before their time, although Farscape had I think four seasons as opposed to Firefly's not even one.
Differences -- Firefly has more of a Western feel, where Farscape has more Fantasy elements. Farscape is more what most people would consider SciFi when they're dismissing it. I wouldn't recommend it to someone who flat out says they don't like SciFi, where I would still encourage them to give Firefly a try. Both have dark elements, but Firefly is more "realistic." Farscape of course had more time to experiment, and they used it to do some really crazy stuff, some of which didn't work very well as far as I'm concerned. Farscape has the "fish out of water" element with John (the American astronaut) having no idea how things work or what things are that the rest of the crew considers perfectly normal. The comic relief in Farscape is broader and sometimes sillier. Farscape doesn't have a captian on the ship, so the power struggles and arguements over what to do are more frequent and more important.
In case you couldn't tell, I quite like them both. And there are certainly similarities, but the overall "feel" of the shows is different. The look is difference, too. . . Firefly is heavy on browns and grays, with a yellowish look to the light, They visit a lot of desert planets. In Farscape, the good guys wear black leather. Of course, so do the bad guys.
Mmmm, yeah, and you know how in Firefly Jayne is always carrying the biggest gun? Here's Farscape's equivilent.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I just saw the movie, I brought a friend and my mom and my mom's friend.
My mom's friend who never saw scifi before, thus never saw firefly before, so at the end of the movie she remarks "When is Serenity 2 coming out?"
Frankly if a movie is good enough to warrant a sequel from someone who isnt a scifi fan I think Joss did good.
Nothing bothered me in the show, I see whatever explanations I see and accept them. "the suspension of disbelief" is something YOUR SUPPOSED TO HAVE when watching a movie and I'm surprised so many of you missed key pieces of dialogue which would've answered many of your questions.
And finally the movie was at 7:10 PM and the theatre was FULL I had to leave my mom and her friend at different part of the theatre to see the movie from the mathamatical middle to watch it with my friend.
All of us including the audience laughed at the same parts, cried at the same parts, were stunned at the same parts. The movie was an amazing experiance for all.
However I never ever want a sequel, that would only allow the franchise to try to miss another bullet in a game of Iraqi Roulette. But what I do want, is a new SEASON of Firefly, because consider that with a recent increase in sales of DVD's for firefly, a demand for a sales of Serentity DVD's and all the profits accosiated I think, I HOPE that if Firefly gets a second season they'll get a third season, and a fourth, and ending with a fith before it goes stale.
If there are more Firefly movies i only want them in conjunction with Firefly to add filler to the back story like with Crusades with Bab5, and the other movies.
The death of Wash and book pained me but they're understandable, though heres a convo with a fello firefly fan:
Me- "Wash dies WHY!" Dano- "Becuase the show died and they don't care" Me- "I heard that if it makes 80 mil they make a new season." Dano- "Then they'll bring him back to life! Anythings possible"
The western feel was amazing, everything was done perfectly, the action was fast but not rushed (imo), parts of the movie where I epxected long drawn out solutions to problems were solved almost immediatly through the cleverness in Mal and his crew, esp with the rescue of Inara with the beacon and the decoys was esp brilliant to me.
And for the love of mike stop nitpicking the movie!
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
This thread is for nitpicking. If you don't like the nitpicking, you don't have to read it. For those of us that have seen the movie more than 5 times, nitpicking is FUN, as is discussion with smart people about what we've seen, what we like, and what we didn't like.
I'm glad you like the movie. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
OK Nitpikers, assume that everything in the movie would have been one great big seasonal arc on the TV series. Where would the individual shows be?
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
I think it could've just been a really good two-hour episode. With no commercial breaks. Oh yeah.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote: I told one of my profs last week that if he saw one movie between now and Narnia (he hates movies and thinks they all mostly suck, but sees them occasionally) that he should see Serenity. To which he responded "is it one of those sci fi shows about a family in space like Farscape?"
I'd consider it a compliment. Serenity, Farscape, Sopranos, and West Wing all have that family in space atmosphere.
Battlestar Galactica doesn't. Babylon Five didn't. Both fine shows, in their own right with their own moments, but that "family in space" feel is what makes everything so much more powerful than mere lone adventurer stories.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
hey Bab5 had a family feel.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Um, not really. It had a compatriot feel, but there was no indication that they were anything but a group of people who had been thrown together and given a choice to change the world, or to sit back and let it go in the direction it headed.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Oh gaw, I just saw this again in a group. With two people who utterly hated it and made comments through the whole movie. Now I'm finally realizing how corny some of it is.
I hate it when that happens.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Um, not really. It had a compatriot feel, but there was no indication that they were anything but a group of people who had been thrown together and given a choice to change the world, or to sit back and let it go in the direction it headed.
I agree. They were all allies. They really weren't vulnerable to each other, in fact, they were kind of closed to each other. Both Bab5 and Battlestar Galactica are stories concerning career soldiers enjoying professional relationships in serious times.There are a lot of uniforms and saluting by dispassionate stoics, but given their situation, it's competely appropriate.
The dynamic on the other shows I named is a little bit looser. The characters aren't constrained by as many rules and protocol and manners, and in general, and that freedom lets their loving character come through, as well as making the problems flowing from this looser dynamic more vivid.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Joldo -- It's not corny, you know. Everyone has different tastes. Your friends are just rude enough not to keep their mouth shut during a movie and let other people enjoy it even if they're not. Don't let them ruin it for you. Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
What do you think is corny? The dialogue? The plot?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Corny might not be the right word. We do have to make sci fi allowances and ignore things like "We can't broadwave this video from the ship" etc. But it's definitely NOT corny. Eljay's right.
Posted by Domasai (Member # 8739) on :
I personally thought SERENITY was excellent. Not quite as excellent as a full season of FIREFLY, but good enough that it deserves some sort of continuation. I'll leave the medium it graces to Joss. Be it another film or a return to the small screen, I'll be there.
You can't take the sky from me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Narnia, it occurred to me why they couldn't broadwave the video from the ship upon my second viewing -- because it bugged me enormously the first time through. There's a throwaway line in which Mal mentions that the recording's so old that they don't have the equipment to play it back on board -- and indeed, we never DO see them play it on board. That said, it's probably fair to ask why they didn't just take the player from the shuttlecraft, but maybe it didn't occur to them. *laugh*
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
It seems that Joss Whedon's strengths aren't logicality and consistency. The problems weren't big enough to ruin my enjoyment, though.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Logicality? *blink*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Logicalitiness?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Good catch Tom. It didn't bother me very much, but it is something I noticed. So now I can explain it away as "They were just too stressed out to take the player." Posted by Domasai (Member # 8739) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Narnia, it occurred to me why they couldn't broadwave the video from the ship upon my second viewing -- because it bugged me enormously the first time through. There's a throwaway line in which Mal mentions that the recording's so old that they don't have the equipment to play it back on board -- and indeed, we never DO see them play it on board. That said, it's probably fair to ask why they didn't just take the player from the shuttlecraft, but maybe it didn't occur to them. *laugh*
Or perhaps they realized The Operative was chasing them down and they wouldn't have the time to dismantle the equipment built into a ship's systems and move it to Serenity. Not to mention the fact that none of their crew is necessarily able to do that. Kaylee knows a ton about engines, but that doesn't mean she knows Alliance technology or ship construction, or how to take such things from one ship and hotwire them into her own.
Posted by HonoreDB (Member # 1214) on :
I'm happy that nitpick isn't valid! Sure, they couldn't read data off of it and didn't have time to figure out how to transfer the reader.
So here's my nitpick: why didn't Mal take Kaylee with him to broadcast the signal? From War Stories, she's worse than useless in a fight and he's got no problem with that. So why leave her to face the Reavers when he's about to face what he expects to be a purely technological challenge?
Posted by Domasai (Member # 8739) on :
'Cause he knew how to use the system that activates the message, so why should he need someone to help him with it? I mean, as far as he knows, Mr. Universe is still alive when he headed downstairs. In his estimation, he could hand the thing off to Mr. Universe and get it broadcast using his equipment, then sprint back up and help his crew out with the Reavers. He didn't know Universe was dead till he went down the elevator.
As for Kaylee: She might not be good in a fight but she might be able to hand the rest of the crew guns when they run out of ammo or reload weapons for them. Gunners aren't on their own in firefights generally speaking; they have support people there to help keep them firing away.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
besides, from what they knew about Mr. Univers, anything female might have been a distraction.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
" Narnia, it occurred to me why they couldn't broadwave the video from the ship upon my second viewing --"
My no-prize explanation is that a broadcast from Serenity would be pretty much treated as spam by the rest of the galaxy. Mr. Universe probably has the ability to hack into trusted newsfeeds and popular underground news sources. Kind of like a future Wired.com type of deal.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Sure, but they could have sent it to Mr. Universe over Serenity's communications system, and have him relay it to the rest of the world.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
That is a good point Shigosei. Now I have to go back to being slightly annoyed by that plot hole.
I'm willing to accept the idea that the rescue shuttle didn't have broadcast capability and Serenity didn't have the right hookups to access the disk.
Oh, and I'm willing to bet that Mal expected trouble when he went to Mr. Universe's place. After all, there was an entire Alliance fleet in orbit of the planet. I'm sure he suspected that Mr. Universe might be dead or a hostage. I bet he even realized that the equipment might be destroyed, though he was probably hoping it wasn't.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
This didn't bother me in the least. The holo was just that. Ever seen any holographic transmission in Serenity? Any little fuzzy green people hovering over the control panel?
I assumed the holo was too informationally dense for the Serenity's basic systems to transmit, even to Mr. Universe.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
It didn't bother me either, but rather than saying "we can't broadwave this," perhaps Mal should have said "we can't transmit this, so we'll have to deliver it."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I assumed the holo was too informationally dense for the Serenity's basic systems to transmit, even to Mr. Universe.
They wouldn't have to actually transmit a holo, you know. If they could play a holo while standing in front of whatever sends video, they could transmit video of the holo. Unless there are frame rate issues. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
It has been my experience that nothing could stump the VLC media player.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
But then we wouldn't have had the cooler-than-cool Reaver attack! C'mon, people!
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: I assumed the holo was too informationally dense for the Serenity's basic systems to transmit, even to Mr. Universe.
They wouldn't have to actually transmit a holo, you know. If they could play a holo while standing in front of whatever sends video, they could transmit video of the holo. Unless there are frame rate issues.
Then you run into issues of authentication, right? Why would anyone believe that the holo was real if they just recorded a video of it and sent it to Mr. Universe? Presumably the holo had some sort of embedded digital "watermark." I was thinking that maybe it can't be played back on or transmitted from a non-authenticated device. That way receivers know it isn't a fake.
Transmission of FMV was definitely a change from the series, though. In the series you had to be nearby to do real-time FMV. "We're close enough for vid, put her up." I figured that was a result of speed-of-light issues, which the movie completely ignores.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Logicality? *blink*
Do you have a problem with the word or with my assertion?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Narnia, it occurred to me why they couldn't broadwave the video from the ship upon my second viewing -- because it bugged me enormously the first time through. There's a throwaway line in which Mal mentions that the recording's so old that they don't have the equipment to play it back on board -- and indeed, we never DO see them play it on board. That said, it's probably fair to ask why they didn't just take the player from the shuttlecraft, but maybe it didn't occur to them. *laugh*
A couple of thoughts: Has anyone considered the issue of a power supply? It may be that the ability to 'put it on every screen for 30 worlds' would just requre more power (whether more available power or a transmitter capable of utilizing more power) than Serenity had at its disposal -- remember the size and look of the generator Mr. Universe had?
Or it may just be an issue of the right equipment. For a very rudimentary example, it doesn't matter how sophisticated my radio transmitter is, I can't send any information to my television set in the next room, let alone in the next state. Mr. Universe had an enormous facility whose entire function was communications -- it was designed to send and receive anything anywhere within the verse, probably using any medium. Serenity is a small transport ship, meaning she probably has the necessary communication devices to do her job and not much more. To me it seems perfectly natural that Mr. Universe would be able to put the signal on every screen for 30 worlds and that Serenity wouldn't be able to do much with it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Why wouldn't Mal just send Kaylee by herself to send the signal then? If he was expecting it to be a one man job, or expecting Mr. Universe to be alive, why wouldn't he said the person with the most tech experience and stay behind as one of the better fighters to help take care of the Reavers?
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
*imagines the horror of the Operative vs. Kaylee*
I'm glad Mal went, thinking of that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: To me it seems perfectly natural that Mr. Universe would be able to put the signal on every screen for 30 worlds and that Serenity wouldn't be able to do much with it.
That's not the problem, Jemmy. The problem is that Serenity should have been able to get the signal to Mr. Universe, since they had full-motion video communications established with his base. Unless of course they couldn't play the holo at all using their own equipment.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:As for Kaylee: She might not be good in a fight but she might be able to hand the rest of the crew guns when they run out of ammo or reload weapons for them. Gunners aren't on their own in firefights generally speaking; they have support people there to help keep them firing away.
It's only the film that matters to Joss Whedon... this very clear throughout the series and the movie. The plot or "logicality" of the plot tends to take a back seat to the impact of the movie and the lines and scenes. From a movie POV there's plenty of reasons why it was better for the story that Kaylee stayed.
1) The "Hell with this..." line and the admission from Simon. 2) It adds tension- she is is sweet girl in the line of fire. 3) Mal had to face The Operative alone. The hero has to have the last fight to himself; he must leave the group behind. 4) The shot with him in the elevator has that great impact... two people wouldn't have the same effect...
To Joss it's about the audience, the film, the scenes and the lines, not, necessarily, about the plot.
EDIT: This also explains the problem with the transmission to Mr. Universe. I'm sure Joss is smart enough to realise he's got giant holes in his plot, he just doesn't worry much about it.
I don't think.
Maybe we should send him an e-mail or something?
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Good point. I guess I don't know about that one . . .
Could it still be a case of the wrong equipment for the medium? I guess that has already been mentioned. *checks* Yep. That was your first comment, wasn't it Tom. I'll just sheepishly second your suggestion. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"*imagines the horror of the Operative vs. Kaylee*"
I think it's pretty obvious that Mal wasn't expecting the Operative to crawl out of a ventilation shaft like that. If he had expected that, he would have destroted Mr. Universe's fembot to stop the Operative from finding out the plan.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
That was another point at which I had to suspend my disbelief. An escape pod. Landed exactly where he wanted it to go. 5 minutes after Mal got there.
Yeah. Right.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
And how in the heck did River get out of her handcuffs before Jayne came into the locker on the ship?
Was it something she could have done all along and was just waiting for the 'opportune moment?' In fact, did she actually CREATE that opportune moment by actually getting Jayne to come open the door??
Hm. Deep thoughts. And much nitpicking. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah the landing pod thing was farfetched. But whatever, half the plot of the movie has to be taken on faith, why take issue with something as small as that?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Yeah, you're right. I'm nitpicking on purpose now. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
If the landing pod has any sort of navigational system, the Operative following Mal is no problem. Especially since Serenity went pretty much straight down to a rather noticeable landing. All the Operative had to do was follow.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Ok, so what about River and the cuffs? But I guess I shouldn't even ask that. It's River for crying out loud!
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
I always assumed that Mal took the tape down to Mr. Universe himself because he needs to see the deed done. What's on the tape backs up everything he believes is wrong with the Alliance and now he gets to tell 30 plus worlds about it. He's got evidence. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to leave that to someone else, even if there's no tactical reason for him to do it himself.
Also: I watched the DVDs some more and then saw the movie again, and the inconsistencies that I thought I saw aren't there. I'm much happier with the movie now. Much.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I can't imagine Mal ever sending Kaylee to make the transmission. To begin with. This is Mal we're talking about, it's just not in his nature. Sending out the message was something he had to do. I doubt it would have occured to him to send anyone else.
I also really doubt that Mal, knowing the Operative's general mode of operations would have any illusions about Mr. Universe being alive when he got there. What I find in need of nitpicking is that Mal was surprised the equipment was destroyed. I can't imagine anyone in the Operative's position not destroying the equipment and I can't believe Mal didn't think of that possibility. Also, since Mal obviously knew that the Operative probably had gotten to Mr. Universe before he did, I'm sort of missing why he would have transmitted the holo straight into the Operative's hands. In his mind the only way to get the message out was to distract the Operative from the equipment for long enough to transmit it himself.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: Ok, so what about River and the cuffs? But I guess I shouldn't even ask that. It's River for crying out loud!
If you really have to have an answer... Perhaps she could have gotten the cuffs off at anytime, but doing so didn't gain her anything until Jayne was coming in to kill her (the fact she could read minds from inside the pantry was already placed).
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:If you really have to have an answer... Perhaps she could have gotten the cuffs off at anytime, but doing so didn't gain her anything until Jayne was coming in to kill her (the fact she could read minds from inside the pantry was already placed).
Actually, I was thinking she may have planted the idea for Jayne to go after her. She was still locked into the pantry, and wanted to go to the bridge.
In 'Trash' she did establish that she could kill Jayne with her brain.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
No, she threatened to do so. Big difference. No sign she's ever done anything mentally besides read people.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
My sister just finished her latest of the Firefly crew:
quote:SPOILER: During the funeral scene, Kaylee wears a medallion with the Chinese symbol for marriage.
Huh??? Anyone hear anything about this? Is it true? If it's true, is it intentional, or did the movie folks just use some random Chinese symbol???
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think Mal looks more like one of the Sheens, Charlie I think, in that drawing. Still, it's good. And River looks more like Christina Ricci.
The one of Zoe is REALLY good, that's my fave.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:She is wearing the character for double happiness usually displayed at wedding banquets or marriage festivities. It does not mean marriage in of itself. (Chinese normally does not wear it as an amulet nor a good luck charm on the body.)
... which makes much more sense, yay.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I haven't read the thread yet, it's way too long and I have to say something...
I just watched Serenity for the first time. (Life prevented us from getting to the theater--not that it was in enough theaters, anyway.)
I loved the movie.... mostly. I turned to my husband within the first 10 minutes and said, "This is the best movie EVER!
But I was deeply disappointed about Wash's death. I thought it was pointless and gratuitous. And... Spoilers for Season 6 Buffy below . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We already saw Joss do meaningless, pointless death with Tara in Buffy. Wash dying was stupid and made me angry. When Shepherd died, I thought that was pretty stupid, too. My husband turned to me and said, "And we love Joss's stuff why?" (or something like that.)
When Wash died it just made it even worse. It spoiled the end of the movie for me to a large degree. Yes, it was still cool, yada yada yada...but I was still grieving when the triumphant ending music started. It felt out of place.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
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Now We'll never find out about who/what he really was.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I loved that.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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I know that Chris, I wanted the words! ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
just great ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
(Is it possible to do an anthropological study within a work of fiction?)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Joss It was so cool. I just got back from seeing it with my mom. She liked it. I too, was fascinated by the reavers.![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
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)