quote:

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There are a number of steps that a woman whose priority remains marriage and children can take in order to happily achieve those goals:


1. Don't engage in casual dating relationships after 18. They're fun, and they'll also prevent you from pursuing more fruitful relationships.

2. Make those potential long-term relationships your top priority. If you put college or your job first, there's a reasonable chance that a job is all you'll have at 40 ... and 60. Consider the president's new Supreme Court nominee. The unmarried and childless Creepy McCrypto is on the verge of becoming one of the two most powerful professional women in the country – does she really represent the ideal American woman?

3. Settle earlier rather than later. I can't tell you how many women I know who blew off good men in their late teens and early 20s who now regret doing so. Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.

4. Let everyone know that marriage and children is your ultimate goal. Too many women, fearing the wrath of the Sisterhood, secretly wish for them while publicly and piously professing feminist-approved cant to the contrary.

5. Bait-and-switch doesn't work. Unlike their female counterparts, men who say they don't want to get married or have kids usually mean it. Play that game and he'll be perfectly justified in dumping your dishonest posterior despite your time-investment in him.

6. Don't hesitate to end relationships that aren't leading toward marriage, or with men who are less than completely positive about the near-term prospect of children. If he hasn't proposed in 18 months, he has no intention of doing so. Cut your losses. Most men know how to string women along and know they'll have no problem replacing you when you finally call their bluff. Never confuse the masculine desire for conflict avoidance with malleability.

7. Shed your man-hating friends, as well as those who buy seriously into the Equalitarian dogma. Misery loves company and miserable women like nothing better than to make everyone within a five-mile radius miserable, too.

8. Be brutal when assessing the men who are interested in you. Too many women make the mistake of looking only at a man's desirable traits and ignoring his weaknesses early on. But it's not the first kiss that matters – it's the happily-ever-after part. The way he treats others is the way he will eventually treat you.

9. If you want the odds of easily bearing healthy children to be in your favor, set a goal of marrying by 25. You can always go back to school, you can't go back in time.

10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling

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quote:

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I can't tell you how many women I know who blew off good men in their late teens and early 20s who now regret doing so. Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before.

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amazing.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Of course not ALL women want this. But there are some that do. I guess that women are able to determine for themselves what they want.

This advises women who want nothing more than to be a wife and mother to go for it and be up front about it. If this is not your career goal, then this advise wouldn't apply to you.

There is plenty of advise for young women who want to go to college and pursue careers outside of the home. That advise would be just as irrelevant to the women who would be interested in this article.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I have nothing against women who want family at the forefront of their lives. I think that women like that are overlooked a lot. But I think it's sad when people assume that any woman who isn't married is defective in some way. And I think girls who are convinced that they need a husband to have a full life are doing themselves a disservice.

My brother went to Ole Miss, and a lot of the girls there would answer the question, "What's your major?" with "I'm here for my M.R.S."

And there was nothing out of the ordinary about that, except they were more upfront about it than most girls are.
 

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Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
 
Creepy McCrypto? That's really funny. Based on this article, I would not take advice from this guy on anything.

I'm pretty sure my understanding of women is better than his, and I don't know squat.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
Possibly true, TanteShvester, but a woman who followed his advice would end up stuck with a similarly "lower quality" man.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
Tante, it's statements like those in the paragraph below that make me doubt this is intended only to apply to those women seeking motherhood and family alone:

quote:

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Is motherhood instinctive or learned behavior? Both religion and science tell us that it is instinctive, much to the distaste of the feminist ideologists, who have never been overburdened by a solid grasp on either. But one need only watch the way in which a young girl mothers her stuffed animals to see the maternal instinct at work.

This is not to say behavior that contradicts these instincts cannot be learned, only that the individual will always possess a certain level of instinct – and, for the purposes of this discussion, it does not matter if those instincts are instilled by evolution or a Creator God – that must be overcome by years of propaganda and social pressure. [emphasis mine]

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quote:

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Vox Day is a novelist and Christian libertarian. He is a member of the SFWA, Mensa and the Southern Baptist church, and has been down with Madden since 1992. (italics mine)

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Down with Madden? Like is that one of his homies? Or is it some kind of medical condition?

 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I knew Tante couldn't stay serious for more than one post.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 

quote:

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...doubt this is intended only to apply to those women seeking motherhood and family alone

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quote:

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Unlike their female counterparts, men who say they don't want to get married or have kids usually mean it.

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I find that offensive. I was always honest about wanting to have children 'someday' (while I actually thought I'd never find a man I wanted to marry, I assumed that if I DID, I would want children). I had even planned to work as a missionary in a Brazillian orphanage, because I loved working with children, but thought I might not ever get to have any of my own.

Now, though, I sort of think I liked kids better before I had any of my own
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
This is true, Tante. I guess I'm mainly reacting to the fact that this choir seems to be an inordinately large one. The choir also seems to be the one that's causing my husband and me to have to respond to things like, "Well, of course you'll want children later on, so you should have them now while you still can."

I get really frustrated by the attitude displayed in the article and in so many people (that all women want children) because it's so ridiculous and yet so widely held.
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
Remind me to stay far away from any woman who actually would follow these rules...

Nobody should have just one "sole" aspiration in life, whether it be having children, getting married, or succeeding in a career.
 

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Posted by JannieJ (Member # 8683) on :
 
I just thought I'd get married when I met the person I wanted to grow old with, and until then, I'd just get on with my life. I guess I have been Doing It All Wrong.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.

---

It really sucks to find out you're generally considered to be of low quality.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Megan, you're not the only one who doesn't want children. I frequently read livejournal communities, and there is one called Childfree. They use the term childfree, because they see Childless as meaning that there's something they're missing by not having children. Instead, they see it as a lifestyle choice, and are happy with their decision.

I happen to be childLESS. I fully want children someday, I just don't have the means to support them now.

Anyway, you might like the community. It's at http://www.livejournal.com/community/childfree . Some of the people there act mean and seem to really hate children, but a lot of them like children, but just don't want any of their own--for many reasons. There's a more "hardcore" group, at http://www.livejournal.com/community/cf_hardcore where they live up to their name. It can be offensive at times.

I read them because it can be interesting, although I don't share the sentiment.

Anyway... thought you might like it. There are even threads on both about that article.

Edit: Those links are full of bad language--well, the second one more than the first one. Just a warning...

[ October 11, 2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Katarain ]
 

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Posted by JannieJ (Member # 8683) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by zgator:

quote:

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Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.

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It really sucks to find out you're generally considered to be of low quality.

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I think Mr. Big Advice Man is stewing over ex-girlfriends, myself.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
JannieJ -That is exactly right. This guy needs his friends to chip in and help him buy a clue.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
Since women tend to go for bad boys when they're young, it's the nice guys that are left over when they end up settling down in their 30's. I think women who marry early generally marry a lower quality of man.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
This guy is an idiot... I'm fairly sure that marriages between people who have married late (late 20s, early 30s, etc.) last longer than those who marry early... statistically speaking. And I haven't looked the statistics up... I just heard it somewhere, and happen to think it makes sense.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
zgator, that is entirely untrue, in my experience. I married at 23, and he has turned out to be the ideal husband for me. Though, I confess, I was mostly drawn to the sweet, geeky type (with a side of handsome, just so I don't sound too virtuous )
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling

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quote:

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3. Settle earlier rather than later. I can't tell you how many women I know who blew off good men in their late teens and early 20s who now regret doing so. Those who are not still single at 35 are now married to men generally considered to be of lower quality than the men they spurned before. Remember, your choices narrow as you get older, while men's choices broaden.

---

Absolute baloney.

Now, if I had done nothing for my twenties but sit around, whimper that I'm not married, and wait for someone to come and save me, that probably wouldn't be true, because guys who are looking for a brainless baby factory will look for the newest model. However, those aren't the kind of guys you would want anyway.

Late teens??? That's ten shades of ick. If you're not married by 21 your choices are all going to suck? What is this person smoking??
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
Olivet, I'm sorry. I meant to say that men that marry early generally marry a lower quality of woman.

On a more serious note, don't you think that #8 also has some merit.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Edit: meant to follow mph

That is true, yet it is also important to nurture the feeling. That is to say, there is an ebb and flow to such things. Love is not dependant upon them, in that love endures the timmes when the feelings are not in evidence. However, if you give up on feeling for your mate entirely, it can lead to a state of continuous misery. Misery doesn't preclude love, mind you, but I can say with certainty that it is not actually love.

Second edit: zgator, that may be true.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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It is ALSO a feeling, thankfully.

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quote:

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10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling

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If you replaced the word "love" with "marriage".

Love, I think, is something entirely different. Hopefully it's a part of your marriage, too. But historically marriages can survive without it.
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
Sandra Day O'Conner took several years off in her career to be a full time mother. But hey, she doesn't fit this guy's narrow view, so why should we blame him for overlooking her

And funny... I put college first and now I work a couple of hours a day and am happily married. I married in my late twenties, no less. I even married a guy who wants kids and thinks family is more important than career. And to think I did it ALL WRONG. I should have just waited around in my parents' house and pestered men to marry me. *tries to imagine husband's reaction if I'd done that*
 

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Posted by Treason (Member # 7587) on :
 

Ahhh, funny.

"If he hasn't proposed in 18 months, he has no intention of doing so. Cut your losses. "

It's been 4 years with my boyfriend, better cut my losses! *laugh*
 

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Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
 
Ba to this. Do what makes you happy.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I'm with mph that love is an action and a commitment, not a feeling, though the actions and the commitment definitely produce lots of feelings. And the feelings that lead to loving someone are certainly helpful for keeping the momentum going. But ultimately, IMO, the greatest, most mature love is expressed in the absense of feeling, where the action and commitment of love is performed despite feelings to the contrary. It's the husband who stays with his wife of 50+ years even though she's become childlike and selfish, has forgotten their children and perhaps even him, and requires his constant presence to keep her from doing damage to herself or others. A feeling doesn't carry someone through times like that.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I disagree. It's precisely the feeling that keeps him going, the deep love he feels for her despite her faults or current problems.

I believe there are varying degrees of feelings, as with anything else, and that love of a spouse can and should be deeper and more lasting, more layered than a love of ice cream. That love can also contain duty, and responsibility, and loyalty, but it's love that makes him tenderly care for her and smile at the sparks of the woman he loves that still emerge.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
This is probably a chicken and egg disagreement. I think the action produces the feelings, not the other way round.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Chris has nailed it, I think.
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 

quote:

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10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling

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quote:

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It's the husband who stays with his wife of 50+ years even though she's become childlike and selfish, has forgotten their children and perhaps even him, and requires his constant presence to keep her from doing damage to herself or others. A feeling doesn't carry someone through times like that

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quote:

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I once at a Madeline Albright speech where she said, "You can have it all. Just not at once."

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quote:

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quote:10. Remember that love is a choice, an action and a commitment, it is not a feeling

I strongly believe in this.

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So, Pokemon is a love story?

Note, am just teasing. I get what you are saying.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I just have thought of love as a verb rather than a noun for so long that it's hard to think of it otherwise.

Fair enough. I tend to treat it as a noun and a verb, with a world of different levels and applications.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Wow, this dude has some *serious* issues and pre-conceived notions. I don't necessarily disagree with his premise, but his delivery is so condescending and distasteful it makes me feel like retching.

His scorn towards an elderly unmarried and childless woman is *very* telling. I doubt he would be so scornful of a man in the same situation.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
The fact that he couches his distaste in the form of "advice" is the really appalling thing to me.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Our society seems to have a history of thinking of "old maids" (women who have never married and are older) with scorn, considering them worthless to society. There is not near so much stigma towards men in the same state. At least, that is how it seems to me.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
I'm trying to figure out if he really believes this tripe, or wrote it toungue in cheek.

Love has to be both a noun and a verb IMO. They need to keep re-inforcing each other.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I believe love has many facets and many meanings. Yes, love is a verb, but it is a feeling as well.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Our society seems to have a history of thinking of "old maids" (women who have never married and are older) with scorn, considering them worthless to society. There is not near so much stigma towards men in the same state.

An awful lot of people tend to treat anyone out of the traditional biological roles as unnatural or freakish. Men who are not married late in life aren't seen as odd becuase they could still produce offspring their biological viability isn't in question.

This is also, I think, why so many people have such a visceral reaction to male homosexuality that they don't always have towards female homosexuality. Guys just aren't supposed to act submissive or feminine. Girls can do whatever they want, since it doesn't affect their own biological viability (although I understand lesbians who dress or act like men tend to get more disdain than feminine lesbians). I doubt the people who react this way think this out, preferring to couch it with religious or social reasons, but it fits the evidence.
 

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Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
 
The whole column reads sort of like a big joke. Passages like this one

quote:

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1. Don't engage in casual dating relationships after 18. They're fun, and they'll also prevent you from pursuing more fruitful relationships.

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quote:

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His scorn towards an elderly unmarried and childless woman is *very* telling. I doubt he would be so scornful of a man in the same situation.

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quote:

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This is also, I think, why so many people have such a visceral reaction to male homosexuality that they don't always have towards female homosexuality. Guys just aren't supposed to act submissive or feminine.

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quote:

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(although I understand lesbians who dress or act like men tend to get more disdain than feminine lesbians).

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quote:

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preferring to couch it with religious or social reasons,

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I am unaware of any religious group that frowns on mannish lesbians while accepting feminine ones.

Actually, I could make a case for prejudices against lesbians being based on other prejudices: that women aren't supposed to like sex or be sensual, but only be sexual out of duty to her husband. Certainly the practice of FGM seems to grow out of this belief.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't think that is true in our society now. I've heard of it elsewhere, but I can't think of any support in the US right now. There's a reason for the condom box taglines.

The quality arguement is the one that is completely off to me. There's no question that the vast majority of idiots I've dated were from my teens and early twenties. I went on dates then with guys I wouldn't even glance at now. As a result, dating and everything else is so much more fun, because I don't have to suffer the fools.

Some of his points have merit(#8), but that one is so far off I'm wondering where he got it.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I will agree with him on the point that it is somewhat problematic to get married at thirty and not start having kids at 35. Medical science tells us that there are more chances of things going wrong with pregnancy after 35. Also, a younger body can simply handle the rigors of pregnancy and labor better at a young age.

But I'm not gonna get all self-righteous on people's hiney's. I mean, there is truth to the idea that people at 30 seem better able to make wise marriage choices and stable marriages.

It is possible that the luxuries of our current day and age make for an extended "adolescence" with youth not needing to take on responsibilities at so young an age and therefore not being adult enough to handle marriage until they've "settled down" a bit and come to know themselves. But I'm not sure that there is anything like an easy answer to that.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

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I don't think that is true in our society now. I've heard of it elsewhere, but I can't think of any support in the US right now.

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Do you mean the "old maids being worthless to society" idea? If you do, I agree--which is why this guy sounds like such a dinosaur. But we have a *history* of thinking this way.
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
I disagree with the idea that men's options widen as they get older while women's options shrink. I think they both shrink.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Statistically, the older the bride is, the less likely the couple is to divorce.

I don't like the idea of girls marrying very young mostly because I don't like the guys who go after the very young girls. (I'm sure this will offend someone. Of course I'm not talking about you. ) I mean, I know the older guys that asked me out when I was eighteen, and while my taste was questionable *remembers the actor she dated that prompted the No Actors rule*, I knew I definitely didn't want someone for whom my naiveté was a major selling point.

If a guy WANTS someone who's that innocent about the world, it signals to me either a desire to easily dominate, or else an inability to cope with someone on his own level. Neither is cute.

--

No bev, I meant the idea that women are not supposed to want or enjoy sex.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 

quote:

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I don't like the idea of girls marrying very young mostly because I don't like the guys who go after the very young girls.

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quote:

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he seems to exist in some alternate, dystopian universe inhabited only
by colossally stupid, but really snarky and sarcastic people
(including, of course, Vox Day himself), who spend all of their time
having bitchy arguments about the stupid shit they say. it is actually
soul-crushingly depressing that these people exist.

---

 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
Does this mean I'm colossally stupid, really snarky, and sarcastic since I agree with him on some of the points?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
kat, you have a No Actors rule, too? So do I! Except mine includes actors, musicians, and stand-up comedians.

Actually, considering where I am right now, anyone who's significantly involved in the entertainment industry is probably a bad idea as anything more than a friend.

As for girls dating older guys...I really think it depends on the individuals involved. There are plenty of instances where that combination works well.

My parents, for example, are ten years apart and still married after 22 years. They run a law office together. It was my father's second marriage, and my mother's first. They were married when she was 35, and I was born two years later. My mother focused on her career until my brother was born when she was 39, and she's gone back to work now that we're older. Lots of this guy's rules broken there.

-pH
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
To clarify, pH, my sister was, at the time 18. The guys she was expressing interest in (and who were returning that interest)? Twice her age.

That is not a just a big age difference. That's creepy.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
18 and 36..yes, kind of creepy.

My biggest age difference in an actual relationship was 8 years. The one after that was 6. The first was a disaster...and maybe that WAS an age difference factor. The guy wanted a wife to stay at home and cook for him, and although I'd made it clear from the beginning that I was very career-minded, I guess that never sank in. Or maybe he was hoping I'd change my mind.

The second one, with the 6-year difference, was much healthier and more balanced, but I think that had more to do with the fact that we came from similar backgrounds and both wanted to be ridiculously successful in our industries.

-pH
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I went back and read the whole article. Geez, if you're an advocate of women choosing family over career, you'd almost want to tell the guy "Thanks, but you'd help us a lot more if you'd work for the other side."

Thing is, I think that at the core, he's got some points. If what you really want is to be married and have a family, don't let today's social conventions discourage you. It's not popular to say outright that's what you want, but so what? Go for it anyway, and don't get current standards of normal stand in your way.

I interpret what he said as:
1. Date with a will. Have a purpose to it.
2. If it's important to you, make it important. Other stuff will distract you and keep you from your goal.
3. Don't wait. Do it now.
4. Be open about what you want.
5. Be honest and direct about what you want.
6. Accept only minimal delays. It's reasonable to wait a little while, but waiting a longer period of time is contrary to your goal.
7. If your friends are not supportive, they aren't your friends.
8. Be wise in your choice. Don't let your emotions make the decision.
9. Don't wait, do it now.
10. Once you commit, there's no backing out if you stop liking the guy you chose.

My main problem with his list is that it's not in the least bit helpful. Seriously, if there's a girl whose main object in life is to be a mother and a wife, all of those ascerbic "rules" could be condensed down to:

1. Know what you want in life and go for it openly, honestly and diligently.
2. Make good choices and recognize mistakes for the valuable learning experiences they are.
3. Don't let emotions alone make critical decisions.

Which are pretty good tips for just about anything you want.

To which slightly more helpful would be tips for actually acheiving the above. Tips, not rules.

* Watch how your beloved treats the women in his family. While it may not be exactly how he'll treat his wife, you'll see some of it as his partner.

* Even if marriage and family is your primary object, develop skills that will make you employable anyway. Life happens, and your family will probably need you to have a job outside the home sooner or later.

* Fully examine the life you're choosing. It is not an escape from adulthood. It is hard work with very few external rewards, and it is often looked down upon and unrespected.

* This is not a zero-sum game. You can have children before you're 25 and have a career too. Don't expect this choice to be easy either, and do be prepared to compromise both sides of your life.

And if you are religious:

* While you may want family and marriage dearly, that may not be God's plan for you. Be open to where he's leading you. Scripture promises that he has good plans for you, to prosper and not to harm.

Which leads me to wonder what our own personal rules are for picking a mate. I had quite a few after my first marriage ended. I broke some of these when I married for the second time, and I can't say I regret it.

* Don't pick someone way older. (*crack* broke this one)

* Pick someone who looks back on his childhood and says it was very happy. (*crack* broke this one)

* He must be financially stable with a good job. (check)

* Don't pick someone your family hates. (check)

* He has to be able to sing and cook, not necessarily at the same time. (*crack* and *crack*)
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Numbers 8 and 3 seem contradictory to me -- be very choosy because you're going to have to live with the guy but don't be very choosy because if you let this one get away you won't find anyone better.
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
It's not really contradictory (at least in my mind). I saw it as be choosy but be choosy now (rather than waiting till later). If you wait till later, then you can't be as choosy.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Nope. #3 says "settle" earlier, not "be choosy" earlier.
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
I think everything except the first sentence points towards choosy. Plus you can take settle to mean a few different things.
 

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Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
 
I took it as be choosy as in make sure he fits the criteria, but settle as in do not turn away a guy that fits the criteria but is not the man of you dreams because you might not find another guy.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I took his intent behind 'settle' to mean 'settle down' not 'settle for'. Poor choice of words, but then, there was a lot of that in his essay.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Let me just add how happy I am that I didn't settle for the guy I was almost engaged to in college.

My thought process was actually similar to what this guy is advocating -- I considered that if I really wanted to be married I should stick with that guy. I knew I could make it work, but I finally admitted to myself that I would be spending my whole life "making" it work. And then I didn't date for 10 years, and decided that I probably never would.

And here I am, 33 and happily, nay ecstatically, married to a man that I never could have dated when I was 19.

The author is a twit. Marry when you find a person that you want to share your life with. Not because you're afraid you won't.
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
One thing I think the author of this article and a lot of people need to realize is what is right for them isn't right for everyone. Case in point, dkw, I couldn't get married at that age. I have no doubt that by the time I'm 30 or so if I'm not married I probably won't ever be.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Why?

Edit: or, more precisely, why not?
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
It's all odds and probability. The odds of me finding a girl I want to share my life with are fairly low at my current age. At that age, they will be a lot lower (due to many of the opposite sex getting married). So the odds are fairly against that. Note, I'm only speaking for myself here. This may not (and probably doesn't) hold true for others.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Yes, your odds would be statistically lower. But so would everyone else's. So in what sense are you speaking for yourself?
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
I know several people who say that, after many, many years of being single and living alone quite prosperously, they are too set in their ways and too much accustomed to having their own way to accept anyone who didn't fit into that life perfectly.

This is what they say; I think if they met someone that was right for them, they (and the prospective partners) would adjust to each other -- but I definitely think it would have to be extraordinary circumstances.
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
My odds are low to start with. If you lower an already low number, it's much lower. That's how I'm speaking for myself.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
pfresh, I think the mistake you're making here is assuming you know the odds of you finding someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, now or ever. Your personal experience really can't give you those numbers. The odds could be incredibly good and you've just been unlucky so far and "beaten" the odds. Or the odds could suck, and you could still "beat" those odds and meet the perfect person when you're 36, or 29, or tomorrow. So when you say you "couldn't" get married at 33, like dkw did, you are basing that off nothing other than your own pessimisim. Which is fine, if you want to go that way. But don't try to pretend it's a statistical certainty. . . there's no way of knowing. None of us ever has any way of knowing.
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
If I had time to pose my argument (and I do have a good argument), I would. I need to get to work on a paper though.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
What makes you think your odds are lower than most?

-pH
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I'm moving my edit here, since you already replied. You said you "couldn't" get married at my advanced age. That sounds a lot more specific than "statistically, my chances are lower." I assure you that if you happen to still be single in ten years and find a mate then you certainly could fall in love at 32 or 42 or 52 or even 82.
 

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Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
 

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Does this mean I'm colossally stupid, really snarky, and sarcastic since I agree with him on some of the points?

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Your views are simplistic. I am a 55 year old woman. When I was 20, I married an articulate, intelligent medical student with a good background and a promising future. Twelve years later, he was a drug addict, had literally shot me in the back, abandoned me with two children, and eventually went to prison. I had delayed my own career. I married again: this time a college-educated oil and cattle baron. 21 years later, he turned out to have a preference for little boys and embezzlement, injured me to the point of hospitalization, and fled the country to avoid a financial obligation of the divorce settlement. I am now permanently disabled and cannot "return to an education or career". While I love my son, I would trade it all for a chance to make another choice: a career, dignity, and financial independence.

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My views may be simplistic. Of course, demographics and mathematics are equally so.And while it may be equally simplistic to point this out, the evidence would appear to suggest that DE is an impressively bad judge of character. Clearly she has never worked in an office, or she would not think there is any dignity to be found there. Still, unlike many women who have had careers, she has contributed materially to the continued existence of the human race even if she now regrets doing so.

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Originally posted by Destineer:
Quoting the Big Advice Man of the Universe:

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My views may be simplistic. Of course, demographics and mathematics are equally so.And while it may be equally simplistic to point this out, the evidence would appear to suggest that DE is an impressively bad judge of character. Clearly she has never worked in an office, or she would not think there is any dignity to be found there. Still, unlike many women who have had careers, she has contributed materially to the continued existence of the human race even if she now regrets doing so.

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Wow, what a jerk. I don't really think I was such a great judge of character at 18, for the record. And what's with the snarky shot at the "many women who have had careers?" My GP is female. She contributes materially to my continued existence by diagnosing that I needed asthma medication. Darn it all, who does she think she is, anyhow? Bad old career woman.

Oh, and she had twins three months ago. Ha!
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Well, duh. Everyone KNOWS that career women contribute nothing to society, Jannie. Duh.

Because women have nothing to contribute except children.

We're useless in every other respect. Teehee, especially in the big, scary real world.

-pH
 

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Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
 
I have noticed since I have been in the South that there is more pressure to get married early. There seem to be more college students engaged here then back home.

As for me I am not really sure. I would like to get married, but I do not want to marry for the sake of marrying. I figure I assume that I will not get married until I meet someone who changes my mind.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Allegra: When my new roommates found out I was from New Orleans, they asked me if it was a Southern thing to be married very young. Apparently, one of them knows a girl whose entire family was engaged by 18.

That hasn't been my experience at all, and I was born and raised in the South.

Then again, my mother was from upstate New York, and she's been the biggest influence on my dating habits. She went out of her way to make sure I didn't feel the need to settle down and become a housewife. But I don't think my very Southern father is in a hurry for me to settle down, either. My sister (who is now 41) never married, and it's never seemed to be an issue in our family; she's very successful career-wise.

-pH
 

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Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
 
I know that not everyone down here get married early, but I think it is more common then in the North.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
But not in the west. My friends from Montana were almost all engaged by the time we graduated college. My friends in Louisiana are getting married a little later - 24-28 years old.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I knew one couple who were married in college, and another one who married after graduating. I went to a school in the South, and most of the students were Southern in origin.

I married at 23 (but I didn't 'settle' ). I think a lot of the people I went to HS with did marry younger than I did, at least, those who did not go to college.

I think it may be the Bible Belt thing, guilt for having pre-marital sex leading to younger marriages. But I can't support that with evidence.

Oh, and while I'm thinking of it:

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Than, Then. "Then is an adverb meaning "at that time" or "next in order". "Than" is a conjunction used in a comparison. We walked more then than we do now.

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From http://www.picard.tnstate.edu/~cmcginnis/gramspel.htm

Pardon the OCD moment. I don't usually nitpick the grammar, and usually scoff at those who do in online media. My demons forced me to do this. Sorry.

*runs off to wash hands*
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I just frantically reread my post, making sure I hadn't misused then or than. Then, when I was sure I was in the clear, a smug sense of superiority came over me. Then I saw a typo in this post and crashed back down to earth.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Typos and stuff are really a non-issue on forums and in instant messaging. But I ... Can't. Help. Myself.

Then/than makes me crazy!
 

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Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 

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Originally posted by dkw:
Let me just add how happy I am that I didn't settle for the guy I was almost engaged to in college.

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The guy wanted a wife to stay at home and cook for him, and although I'd made it clear from the beginning that I was very career-minded, I guess that never sank in. Or maybe he was hoping I'd change my mind.

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Or maybe he thought that even though you said you were very career-minded, you didn't *really* mean it.

Man, this guy is like those men who think that "no" means "yes" when it comes from a female.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
bev: Yes. Because even though I told him how happy I was that my parents would help me pay for grad school after we were married, what I really meant was that I wanted to pop out kids and bake apple pie.

That's what it really means, in the female language.

-pH
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

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Originally posted by Enigmatic:
Let me just add that I kicked that guy in the crotch once.

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Was he the President or the Bodyguard?
 

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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
Maybe he was one and then the other.
 

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Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
 
It is nice that men can tell what we really mean when we say things.
 

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Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
 

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Is motherhood instinctive or learned behavior? Both religion and science tell us that it is instinctive, much to the distaste of the feminist ideologists, who have never been overburdened by a solid grasp on either. But one need only watch the way in which a young girl mothers her stuffed animals to see the maternal instinct at work.

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So in summary there is a maternal instinct, just like there is a paternal instinct.

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I understand the role that oxytocin plays and that it effects the father, but how instinctual is the desire to beget offspring in the first place? Certainly males have an inborn instinct for sex, but does that instinctually extend to parenting before there is any child to speak of?

Do men instinctually feel as much drive to have offspring as women tend to, or do women tend to feel it more because of societal pressure alone?
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Oh bev... I luurve you!
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
'Tis mutual, Telp.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 

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Is motherhood instinctive or learned behavior?

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Do men instinctually feel as much drive to have offspring as women tend to, or do women tend to feel it more because of societal pressure alone?

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I think that the drive manifests itself differently to men and women. To men sex drive is sufficient to father children, because biologically speaking after the initial conception they can disappear and a child could still exist without his knowledge. For a woman having a child means living with being pregnant for nine months, and being present the moment the baby is born. So for women the drive to reproduce is much more closely linked with the drive to care for children.

To be honest though, I don't know if men feel the same desire to be a father, with all of the demands of caring, loving, and guiding a child. I'm going to assume that for some men, it appears so. Some men seem to really enjoy being a parent, even if they aren't the biological father. The way the oxytocin works, a man could have that response if he lived with a pregnant woman and later if he interacts a lot with the baby, regardless of whether or not he is the biological father. For women, it is much more closely associated with pregnancy, so they don't get the same response if say their sister that they live with is pregnant and they later help care for the child.

So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think women are more likely to feel the drive to want to have and care for children, while men are capable of that same feeling, but at least biologically, aren't as likely to have it. I'd love to hear how men feel, I don't feel too qualified to comment on their feelings .
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
"That does not fempute!"

"Femputer sentences them to death! By snoo-snoo!"

Haha, I'm watching the Amazonia episode of Futurama right now, incidentally.

I think there are plenty of men who have the desire not just to father children, but to raise them as well. Plenty of men want to have families. I think there are a lot more of those types than you think.

Of course, all I have to base this on are personal experiences and stories from friends and such.

-pH
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
pH: Yay for the No Actors rules! Mine also extends to musicians, but only the frustrated, its-not-working-out-and-I-have-no-other-ambitions kind. I have, fortunately, never dated a stand-up comedian, but I can only imagine. *shiver*

I love everything that dkw said. To paraphrase Kathryn H. Kidd, our bodies want us to have babies, but they don't care if we are happy after we do it. And it is a whole lot worse to be unhappily married than to be happily single, where not only is life good, but there's still a chance of good things to come. Don't get married until your brain and your heart all tell you it is the right time and the right person.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Unless the person's really rich.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

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our bodies want us to have babies, but they don't care if we are happy after we do it.

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