What does it really mean when you say a person has perfect pitch?
And what if, say, it was important that a person have perfect pitch, what types of tests might you do that would determine if in fact they do have it? Tests that wouldn't rely on modern equipment.
Yes, it's for my NaNo novel. Please help me. *makes puppy eyes* Please?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Everything I know about perfect pitch I learned from Killashandra Ree.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
kat, that is the extent of my knowledge also. So I figured before I started writing about a system of magic that relied on music and had practitioners with perfect pitch, I should learn more than Anne McCaffery could teach me.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Perfect pitch is when you can hear a pitch played and say "That's a G." It's when you can hear a symphony and tell me what key the orchestra is playing in. It's like you're a walking piano, pitch pipe or tuning fork. If your choir director needs an E flat above middle C, you can hum it for them. The real thing.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I know that perfect pitch is much more common among speakers of tonal languages than it is of speakers of non-tonal languages. That might be of use in your novel. Or not.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Perfect pitch means that you are able to hear and identify-- not necessarily reproduce, but name-- different notes. It is also possible to have near-perfect pitch.
Tests: the classic one is to play notes on a piano, tell the person what they are-- A, B, C, etc.-- and then play notes without allowing them to see the keyboard and ask them what it is. Also, people with perfect pitch are usually very good with intervals and beats, so someone with perfect pitch would be able to hear if said piano was out of tune and tell you, providing they knew what a scale should sound like.
*has a sister who has perfect pitch* *has near-perfect pitch herself*
Perfect pitch also makes it much easier, with a little training, to take musical dictation and identify the key a piece is in.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Perfect pitch means that when you hear a pitch, you know the note name, without reference to any other sounds. Most people can sing a major scale, but someone with perfect pitch can sing a specific major scale (say, D major) without first hearing the pitch D or any other pitch that would give them a frame of reference for the key.
I don't know if that's specific enough for what you're asking.
In order to test a person for perfect pitch, you would play notes with long spaces of silence in between and ask the person to name the notes.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
JemmyGrove could tell you more about it. He himself has perfect pitch. (the bum!) It's funny because if he hears a song on the radio, he'll sing it back to me a week later in the same key, while I would just pick a key out of thin air and start singing the song....He would of course know that I'm wrong and I would be blissfully ignorant. Must drive him crazy.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Perfect pitch also makes it much easier, with a little training, to take musical dictation and identify the key a piece is in.
Unfortunately, though, people with perfect pitch who rely on the skill to get them through aural skills classes usually end up with no sense of understanding of how key works.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Here is an article that discusses the relationship between perfect pitch and tonal languages, and gives a bit of background on perfect pitch as well.
The article's blurb:
quote:
A new study concludes that young musicians who speak Mandarin Chinese can learn to identify isolated musical notes much better than English speakers can. Fewer than one American in 10,000 has absolute pitch, which means they can identify or produce a note without reference to any other note. Also called perfect pitch, this skill requires distinguishing sounds that differ by just 6 percent in frequency.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
EDIT: Apparantly my definition is sort of wrong. It's more the hearing than the reproducing bit. Odd, I always thought that the two kind of went hand in hand.
A person with perfect pitch knows exactly where a note is. Ask them to sing a C and they will be able to. If a musical instrument isn't exactly tuned it may be annoying to them.
Testing them, if they have previous musical knowledge (which I think that they'd probably have to), would be as simple as telling them to sing a note and then playing the corresponding note on the piano.
Some people have a semi-perfect-pitch, and they seem to be able to tell if the note sung is approximately right. At least, that's what they claim.
Relative pitch is where you can tell if relative to another note the note's in the "right" place and is far more common and can be largely learnt.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:A person with perfect pitch knows exactly where a note is. Ask them to sing a C and they will be able to.
Not necessarily. Some people who have perfect pitch can identify notes but not necessarily reproduce them perfectly.
And when that happens, it usually annoys the heck out of them. People with this problem often refuse to sing because they always know exactly when they're doing it wrong.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
but assume there is no common method of musical notation. How would someone test for perfect pitch if he couldn't ask the person to "hum an A?"
Would it work if say he played harp strings and one of the strings was out of tune and asked her to tell him which one was "off?" Could he sing part of a scale and ask her which note came next and she be able to do it?
Could he play her several notes and ask her to sing them back and she be able to do it perfectly?
Would all these things indicate perfect pitch? Or at least some type of "special" musical aptitude that might tell him yes, this girl is worthy of being trained?
Any other ideas or suggestions that might help my master musician/magician find him an apprentice?
Edit: WHOA you guys are fast - this was typed after seeing Narnia's reply.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
If there are harps, there are ways to name the notes. Trust me on that one. They may be different names, but anywhere with instruments there will be some way to distinguish "first string" from "third string".
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
If I actually do write this thing, I will probably ask for some musically trained folks to read through those parts and make sure I'm not way off base with something.
You guys are wonderful.
*hugs Hatrack*
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Well Belle, 'perfect pitch' is usually only used in reference to the scale system used by Western music. If you're dividing the tone into more than half (quarters and eighths) like many Eastern music systems do, it gets funky. I don't know if perfect pitch is the way to work it in your novel because if a string was 'off,' that would mean 'off' in reference to the Western 12 tone system.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Would it work if say he played harp strings and one of the strings was out of tune and asked her to tell him which one was "off?" Could he sing part of a scale and ask her which note came next and she be able to do it?
Could he play her several notes and ask her to sing them back and she be able to do it perfectly?
Would all these things indicate perfect pitch? Or at least some type of "special" musical aptitude that might tell him yes, this girl is worthy of being trained?
All these things can be done by people with good relative pitch, as Teshi described.
Unfortunately, without a system of notation or at least some form of knowledge of musical organization, there really isn't "perfect pitch."
Add to that the fact that, depending on what tuning system to use, perfect pitch isn't really perfect. Most people described as having perfect pitch today have perfect pitch for the system in which A4 is 440 Hz. But, in the past, A4 has been as low as 435 Hz, so early instruments sometimes throw people with perfect pitch into fits.
Belle, how does the training take place if there is no system of notation? Is it purely "hear and repeat"? This would help me give better suggestions. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
In a guitar context, I can always tell by the sound of it whether or not it's in tune, and lately I can even tell which string is out of tune. This is kind of cool. Last week when my buddy and I were jamming and I stopped the song to tell him, "Dude, your B string's flat."
He checked, and sure enough it was flat. I felt very cool, even though this is far removed from perfect pitch. Using Teshi's conventions, I have very good relative pitch.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think I have relative pitch. I wish I had perfect pitch. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
So people with perfect pitch aren't always very good singers?
That would be very frustrating indeed.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Megan, there is notation but only the magicians learn it and know it. There isn't one that the general populace uses. Mostly you just have minstrels with lutes or harps.
So at the time the master magician encounters her she would know nothing about musical notation. He is trying to determine if she's worth training and for that she'll need excellent pitch - the ability to not only learn notes but reproduce them exactly - the spell depends on getting the pitch of the notes exactly right every time.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Bev, the people I know how have it describe it as a mixed blessing at best. They can't enjoy historical performances. There are also arguments that the intervals in the equal temperament tuning system (the one everyone is most familiar with) aren't the "nicest" intervals. But that's wading into the history of music theory... Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
afr, the woman who taught me music appreciation in college had perfect pitch, I wish I could have quizzed her but I don't have even her email addy anymore.
At any rate, she was an accomplished pianist but couldn't sing at all.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Which is fun! Let's wade!!
Belle, sounds like you're hearkening back to pre Renaissance when music was a 'church' thing and notation was just being tried in different ways. You should read some music history to get an idea of how that all played out.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I wanna read. Where is it?
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Some people who have perfect pitch can identify notes but not necessarily reproduce them perfectly.
And when that happens, it usually annoys the heck out of them. People with this problem often refuse to sing because they always know exactly when they're doing it wrong.
Yep. I don't have perfect pitch myself, but I'm not bad, and I can tell when my singing is a bit flat. It drives me bonkers.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Hmm. Ok, no one knows exactly what causes people to have perfect pitch, but it most frequently arises in people that have been playing musical instruments from a very, very early age.
You could have children who showed musical aptitude very early on trained on instruments, and those who show extraordinary talent might be given a test in which they have to reproduce an extended melody on their given instrument with every pitch being exactly right. Then, if they did that, they could become apprentices, learn the notation, and THEN be tested for perfect pitch to see if they could move on to be masters.
So, the girl in question might show amazing, extraordinary talen on her instrument in question, maybe producing some magical sparks or something without realizing it.
You could make the magic, rather than the music, be the test.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Belle, you're not looking for someone with perfect pitch-- you're looking for someone with perfect or near-perfect pitch who can sing on pitch and has a good range.
Best test I can think of in your scenario would be to gather the children who are the best singers and remember the village songs in each village-- ask the adults to single out children with musical talent and a good memory-- and bring them up one at a time. Play a tune for them, or sing a melody, and ask them to reproduce it exactly as they heard it.
The one in every few hundred who can do it several times should be taken to a central location for further testing by a group, if possible, to see if with training they have ability. If not, they are either sent home or kept to assist; your choice since it's your story. If you don't want there to be an organized "guild" so much as a master-apprentice type of learning system, then I think the master should take the child he finds to a secluded spot in the woods or whatever and spend a few weeks to a month intensively training the child to see if it will work out.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
My mother has perfect pitch. I have good relative pitch.
In the scenarios you described, someone with good relative pitch would perform well. I don't know that there would be a way to test for perfect pitch.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Okay. Megan, you may be on my list of experts that might need to read those portions of the novel to make sure they're believable.
I think what I have in mind will work or at least be somewhat plausible.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Which is fun! Let's wade!!
Speaking as someone who recently reviewed tuning systems for my major field exams, please allow me to say:
I like the idea of having your hero mention in passing that the harp player's harp is out of tune and having the magician overhear her.
Then you can marvel at how a person with this aptitude wasn't caught by the testing.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I have pretty good relative pitch. Combined with a fair understanding of musical notation, I can sightread pretty well.
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
Belle, most people who have perfect pitch received musical training before the age of four. You need an aptitude for it (which appears to be at least somewhat heriditary) and then you need to hear music and work with it at a young age. Your main character would not need to know the notation, but she would have needed to be around people who were performing music within that notation system, and to have been singing along herself when she was young. Perhaps her outcast evil mother??? I dunno, this could get fun.
There is (or was, he may have retired) a professor at the University of Colorado who could not sing a note because he was born with screwy vocal cords (he could talk) but had perfect pitch. So he could tell other people when they were off or on but not sing himself. Also people with perfect pitch can tell you what key you talk in, which is a highly entertaining parlor trick, at least around musicians.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:People with this problem often refuse to sing because they always know exactly when they're doing it wrong.
Porter has a bit of this problem. He may not have perfect pitch (his dad does), but his relative pitch is good enough that he can hear how off-key he is and doesn't know quite how to fix it.
quote:Bev, the people I know how have it describe it as a mixed blessing at best.
I guess it is true that I am blissfully able to throw myself into whatever key people are trying to play in. My pitch is completely relative. Once I have a frame of reference, everything I perceive revolves around it.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I've got it.
My theory is that my perfect pitch is related to mild synesthesia. If I hear a C, I can name it. No problem whatsoever. I hear something just sharp of a C, though, I have no idea. I think it's because C is red for me, but "just sharp of C" isn't anything. I hear C, see red, know it's C. I hear "just sharp of C" and see nothing. I know it's generally around a C (maybe a B or a D?), but I couldn't tell you it's just sharp of a C.
I wonder how many people with perfect pitch work this way.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:Hmm. Ok, no one knows exactly what causes people to have perfect pitch, but it most frequently arises in people that have been playing musical instruments from a very, very early age.
I can believe this. In fact, what Noemon said about the link between perfect pitch and tonal languages is *very* interesting to me.
There are so many things that if we learn them at a young age, we learn them in ways that adults never can. Children are amazing: Best Programmed When Young. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Your main character would not need to know the notation, but she would have needed to be around people who were performing music within that notation system, and to have been singing along herself when she was young.
I like the idea that common people just sing work songs, ritual songs, etc. in every day life, while the musicians are the ones who play instruments and do magic with them. Or something like that. So the child can be around music and singing-- after all, it occurs in every culture I know of in some form or another-- from a young age, be drawn to it, be the one who remembers all the village songs and can sing them exactly as they were sung to her.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Belle, sure! Just email me, and let me know.
I like music-related fantasy in general, when it's accurate. Mercedes Lackey has a music-related series that I enjoyed.
Actually, I have to say, I seem to remember reading bits of the Anne McCaffrey thing y'all are talking about up thread, and thinking, what a load of horse puckey.
But that was a loooong time ago, and my views may have changed since then.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I want parents out of the way so she can be immersed totally in her training so I was planning on having her abandoned at a convent type place by parents that had contracted the plague when she was very young. The master magician finds her when she's around eight.
Maybe the parents can have been court musicians or something, and so she can have been around music since before birth. And if music is used in worship at the convent, she can have continued to be exposed to it there.
kq - good idea on everyone else using traditional songs, maybe those village songs can have some magic in them too, maybe the song the mother sings to soothe a crying baby really has some healing power, except that only the trained magicians are able to master it and work really big magic.
Hmm...opens up another dimension to the novel...another reason why I love this place!
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I've got it. I didn't always have it, but to tell the truth, most instrumental musicians of a certain age either have it or have picked it up. I have yet to meet a professional pianist over twenty without perfect pitch. There are only twelve notes, and they don't change. If you practice long enough, they are going to stick. It's not that big of a deal. Imagine if there were only twelve words in a language, would we be making this hubbub about someone's ability to memorize and recognize all twelve words?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I know lots of professional instrumental musicians who don't have it. I don't think it's as universal as you think.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'm with Megan.
My dad, who has been playing guitar since he was 12 and is very good at keeping in tune-- he will hear when something is "off"-- will still ask me which string is out of tune if he's in a hurry. I'll listen for a second and say, "It's your D string-- slightly flat" or whatever.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I agree. I was too loose with the term "professional." I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to music practice and I think that most musicians don't listen to themselves when they practice, and this goes for all levels. Of the people who listen to themselves when they practice, for 15 or 20 years of practicing every day, I really haven't met too many who haven't picked up perfect pitch.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Hopefully one day I'll have perfect pitch, then. I notice I'm improving ever so slightly.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Actually, I have to say, I seem to remember reading bits of the Anne McCaffrey thing y'all are talking about up thread, and thinking, what a load of horse puckey.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Oh, Kat, just the music parts of it!
I don't remember much else about it, to be honest.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Irami, most musicians I know practice very hard. They listen to themselves. They record themselves. Some of them have perfect or near-perfect pitch.
Most do not.
I think it's a combination of early exposure and a genetic component; at least, that has been reliably established by many studies. Maybe you are lucky enough to know a lot of musicians who have been blessed with both or have overcome lack of one or the other to be gifted (or cursed) with perfect pitch.
How many musicians do you know, anyway?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I know very little about music. I've studied it several times in different ways, but of all the things I have been blessed, that simply isn't one of them. I can get better with practice, but it's never clicked, the way other creative things have, so I give up. I've given up many times so far. I'm sure I will do so many times in the future.
---
Irami is a very real musician, however stringent your definition. The hours a day, every day, are not theoretical.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Irami is a very real musician, however stringent your definition. On this subject, he knows what he's talking about.
So are some of the rest of us in this thread.
I don't have a problem with him stating his experience. It just doesn't jive with my experience.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
What I object to is the automatic assumption that anyone who doesn't have perfect pitch is somehow an inferior musician. I know plenty of extraordinarily talented musicians who don't have perfect pitch, and I don't think it's as simplistic as Irami is making it out to be.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I know what he said was probably offensive. However, you're can't counter him by questioning his credentials.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You can if you don't know them and he doesn't state them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Who questioned his credentials?
He just seems to be working with a kind of limited pool. Maybe it's different for piano players. I have experience with a different kind and range of professional musicians. And I know a ton of them. If he only knows piano players, maybe he should state his experience as "piano players I know." Or whatever.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Also, a perfectly in tune performance is not the same thing as a perfect performance, or even a good performance. Pitch is not the only aspect of music needed to make a good performance.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*shrug* I don't know if he's wrong or right about what he said. However, I do think it is an informed opinion from someone in the professional classical musician world.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
If his experience is limited to, say, pianists who have played since they were very young, then it isn't a completely informed opinion. Musicians' experiences are so widely ranging that to make such a generalized statement based on such a narrow sample is, in fact, ill-informed.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
He's not going to say his credentials. However, I do know that saying he must be inexperienced is absolutely mistaken.
No, he's not basing it on a few piano players.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Maybe not, but that seems to be the basis for his statement. Like KQ said, it's one thing to state his experiences, and quite another to imply that musicians who don't have perfect pitch are somehow inferior musicians.
And, in case anyone doubts that's what he did...
quote:If you practice long enough, they are going to stick. It's not that big of a deal. Imagine if there were only twelve words in a language, would we be making this hubbub about someone's ability to memorize and recognize all twelve words?
quote:I agree. I was too loose with the term "professional." I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to music practice and I think that most musicians don't listen to themselves when they practice, and this goes for all levels. Of the people who listen to themselves when they practice, for 15 or 20 years of practicing every day, I really haven't met too many who haven't picked up perfect pitch.
I do not have perfect pitch, and yet, somehow, I'm generally considered to be a pretty good musician.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, yeah, it was horribly arrogant, offensive, and possibly wrong (I sure don't know). It just wasn't said out of inexperience.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Hey, this started as a friendly thread set up to help me. Yes, it's all about me.
I know Irami is a well trained musician. I know Megan is too. My understanding of perfect pitch is that it was relatively rare and not something that just anybody could learn.
But what do I know, I obviously am not well informed so that's why I came here asking for advice. Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Fair enough.
Kat--> <--Me
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*hands Katie some chocolate as a peace offering*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm sorry, Belle. It's just that Irami's attitude (that those with perfect pitch are automatically superior musicians) is pretty standard for those who have perfect pitch, and it's one that gets under my skin a bit.
Anyway, in my experience, it is relatively rare, and though I know people who have tried to learn it as adults, their success rate has been, in my experience, zero.
Let's carry on with the theoretical fantasy world discussion. That was more fun. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
*pouts at kq*
Hey! I want chocolate too!
No prob. Megan, you're not upsetting me.
And I'm not a musician, but I can understand why his statement would be offensive to those of you that are. I certainly have plenty of respect for all musicians, whether they possess perfect pitch or not.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah. I really like the idea of lullabyes having real soothing power, singing prayers for the sick with real healing power, work songs that actually help the workers work in tandem, be strengthened, and the job go well, etc., but the power being mild. Also, families with better singers-- better able to hit the right notes-- would have better "luck", happier lives. That might make for an interesting society.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I associate perfect pitch with superior musicians, too. But that's just because I have terrible pitch. I always have to be started off with the right tone, or I'll jump in in the wrong key. I have excellent relative pitch, but perfect pitch is up there with photographic memory, in my opinion.
Of course, friends of mine think singing takes a special gift, and to me it comes like breathing.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*hands Belle some chocolate, too*
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I'm going to "chime in" with KQ and Megan.
Maybe it would be better to use the term "absolute pitch". Most musicians in my experience (and there are a lot - from orchestral players to folk singers) do not have absolute pitch. They do have really good relative pitch and various degrees of muscle memory, aural memory etc. that can help them narrow it down pretty fast. I do not have absolute pitch (i'm a singer), but I nearly always stay in tune and I will usually start a song (a capella) in the same key over and over again.
I does work rather like memory. You can be blessed with a good memory; you can work to improve your memory; there are some people with a "photographic" memory, but these are few and far between.
BTW Tone "deafness" is the same way. Very few people are actually "tone deaf". Most are just untrained.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
You're absolutely right about muscle memory and pitch, especially in singing. I don't usually think of vocal muscle memory, because I'm an instrumentalist; thanks for reminding me!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:I will usually start a song (a capella) in the same key over and over again.
I've wanted to test myself on this, but I never have. I know for a fact that there are plenty of times when I start an a cappella song in the "wrong" key, but I think there are a fair number of times when I start it right. I'd like to know just how "good" I am.
Where I do best is when I have an advantage. If two songs follow each other on a CD, I will "know" the interval between them and therefore know where the next song begins. Obviously that is going to be a trait of relative pitch, though, which I think I already have.
Posted by genius00345 (Member # 8206) on :
I noticed one day that our school bell rings just flat of concert B flat.
I have band first thing in the morning, and I noticed this about 2 class periods later. The next day, I played concert B flat just before the bell rang, and sure enough, I was right.
I don't think that's perfect pitch, though. I can't identify the key of a song without playing it first.
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
Brinestone: Oooh, yes, perfect pitch is indeed commonly linked with synesthesia.
Regarding the ability to learn perfect pitch: technically unlearnable. However, I played violin for three years and therefore could sing a 440 A out of the blue because I heard it wayyyyy too much. And if you've got an A, and you know your intervals, you've got everything. Ditto for choral songs. There was a song that my high school Madrigal choir sang at least once every time we practiced, and I still start it perfectly on pitch. Which is also useful for working out where other notes are.
Belle: If the prerequisite for getting a spell to work is simply that it must be perfectly in tune, perfect pitch is unecessary. An accurate starting note (from memory, someone who does have perfect pitch, an instrument) is needed. Note that string instruments go out of tune in about two seconds. Perfect pitch would certainly be handy, however. Also, as other people have mentioned, the notion of "in tune" is relative by society and their musical traditions. Scales and number of pitches aren't even agreed on. I don't feel like going off about modes right now (a wee bit boring, in my opinion) but you could poke around online and listen to some weird weird stuff, to a Western ear.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think that part of the thing with perfect pitch in her story is that to understand the magic you have to be able to hear the subtle differenes in notes. But I think that some people without perfect pitch but with very good memories and other talents might be able to do it.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
quote: I have yet to meet a professional pianist over twenty without perfect pitch.
My brother's a professional pianist and he's 27. And he doesn't have perfect pitch.
But, then again, most professional musicians I know don't have truly perfect pitch; they have excellent relative pitch, and usually a note or two of reference.
For example, I know that a certain note, when I hum it, is always a low "G" -- square in the middle of that note, in fact. If I drop my jaw in a certain way and move my diaphragm just so, a "G" comes out. From there, since I have very good relative pitch, I can give you pretty much any note you want -- but I have to get that "G" first.
Almost all professional musicians do this, too; they have one or two comfortable notes that they can recognize on some level, and can extrapolate the others using relative pitch.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Christy,
You sum up my thoughts on this matter precisely and succinctly.
Thanks.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
My grandmother didn't believe her nephew had perfect pitch for a long time and wouldn't teach him to play piano because she thought he was too young at the time. (He was about 5.) Then one day he told her what key the telephone was in...I bet you can figure out the rest.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: BTW Tone "deafness" is the same way. Very few people are actually "tone deaf". Most are just untrained.
This is true. In fact most "tone deaf" people also speak in a monotone. They simply cannot hear the differences in pitch.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
andi, I got the impression that my instructor's story was similar, that her perfect pitch was apparent very young - she said she started her piano training at age three. When we all made appropriate gasps of astonishment, she said "Well, I have perfect pitch."
That's one reason why I thought of it as something you were born with, not something that anybody could learn as Irami implied.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Perfect pitch is an inherantly natural talent. You're right, it can't be learned. People who learn it have relative pitch. I have relative pitch. Give me a note and tell me which one it is and I can give you any other notes you're looking for. Because of my years in band I can usually also spit out a 440 "A" without too much effort. I couldn't give you any other notes without having a pitch to start one first.
Perfect pitch is rare. Rare enough that most "superior" musicians don't have it, they have like myself and many others relative pitch and it generally takes years of musical training to develop it. According to Wikipedia only about one in every ten thousand people possess active absolute (or perfect) pitch. These people can identify notes without a note to relate it to, identify the key of a piece (if they've had musical training) and sing a specific note if asked. Wikipedia also implies that it can be learned, or at least that some people think it can be. Realistically no one is certain (which qualifies my above statement). I fall on the side that it is an inborn traight because the one or two people I know who have it, have had it since an extremely early age, when it seems unlikely they would be taught it.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
People who claim to have learned absolute (or perfect) pitch, by taking pitch recognition courses generally haven't, though they are very good at identifying notes. I say this because I do know at least one person (my mother's cousin above) who has true absolute pitch and several who claim to have learned it.
The above cousin ALWAYS knows what note is being played, even old rings on telephones and bland door bells, you know the ones that just play a single or two tones, not the songs. Those I know who claimed to have learned absolute pitch are right MOST of the time, maybe even 95% of the time, but they still make some mistakes from time to time. Impressive, but again, thanks to my experience with someone who does have absolute pitch, it's not the same.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Granted, I think that most professional musicians are hacks, just as I think most writers are hacks. In other words, just because someone pays you to do it, it doesn't mean that you do it well, that's why I wanted to amend my first statement and take out the word "professional."
quote:Maybe not, but that seems to be the basis for his statement. Like KQ said, it's one thing to state his experiences, and quite another to imply that musicians who don't have perfect pitch are somehow inferior musicians.
*shrugs* Perfect pitch doesn't make one a good musician, careful attention to the musical line makes one a good musician, and careful attention to the musicial line very often requires years of thoughtful slow practice, and I'm saying that perfect pitch is an amoral by-product of those years of thoughtful slow practicing and the aural dispostion that comes from those years of slow practice.
There is a fine analogy to be made with English grammar. As in, I imagine that most great American writers know all of the correct uses of a semicolon. The vast majority of Americans do not. And there is a healthy percentage of horrible writers who can enumerate the correct uses of a semicolon. But since they can't write, they are relegated to being grammar Nazies. They are the perfect pitched kids of the writing world.
Somehow, someway, the great writers picked up the uses of a semicolon, either through careful reading, an errant style guide, or just good schooling. However they got it, they picked it up, and it's not that big of a deal to them. I'm sure that some even argue that they came forth from the womb with perfect punctuation knowledge blessed from the everlasting gods.
I think that perfect pitch works the same way.
You can say the same about being able to name ten framers of the Constitution. Most Americans can't. I imagine the percentage who can goes up significantly if you poll Congressmen, but I don't think that it's a 100 percent, and you certainly don't need to know ten framers to be an effective Congressmen. But if we poll, among the Congressmen, people who consider themselves constitutional scholars, even though they might not have studied each framer individual, I imagine that those constitutional scholars somehow, someway, can find it in their power to name those framers, and moreover, they probably don't think that it's a big deal.
I worry that my analogies to writing and grammar are unfit and convoluted. There is a similar analogy to spelling, but it's similar such that if you understood the first two analogies, fitting spelling as a third example should be easy.
As an aside, if I sat down in the Chicago Symphony, in full-dress, right before a concert, and the concertmaster stood up, looked at me and nodded, and I, with full breath, played a perfect B-flat, I'm pretty sure that sure that nearly everybody on stage would know about it without having to think too hard.
______
Another tangent:
People love the idea of being born with talents. It's super convenient. It even has the convenience of sometimes being true. It feeds the ego of the person with the talent, while allowing the person who is not disposed off of the hook.
I personally think that perfect pitch is a matter of disposition, not genetics. But that changing ones disposition, especially as one gets older, is darn difficult, that's why it's easier to lump it off as being genetic.
[ October 14, 2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Granted, I think that most professional musicians are hacks, just as I think most writers are hacks. In other words, just because someone pays you to do it, it doesn't mean that you do it well, that's why I wanted to amend my first statement and take out the word "professional." ... *shrugs* Perfect pitch doesn't make one a good musician, careful attention to the musical line makes one a good musician.
So are they good musicians, or are they hacks?
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
quote: As an aside, if I sat down in the Chicago Symphony, in full-dress, right before a concert, and the concertmaster stood up, looked at me and nodded, and I, with full breath, played a perfect B-flat, I'm pretty sure that sure that nearly everybody on stage would know about it without having to think too hard.
Another tangent:
People love the idea of being born with talents. It's super convenient. It even has the convenience of sometimes being true. It feeds the ego of the person with the talent, while allowing the person who is not disposed off of the hook.
I personally think that perfect pitch is a matter of disposition, not genetics. But that changing ones disposition, especially as one gets older, is darn difficult, that's why it's easier to lump it off as being genetic.
Acutally, they would probably assume that you were playing a 440 "A" since that's the most common tuning pitch and it's only half a step away from that B-flat. Unless of course you were talking about a concert B-flat which may, on your instrument, be a 440 A, I don't know what instrument you play. Most musicians can tell a 440 A when they hear it from years of practice. They may even know one or two other notes, but the majority of people in that orchestra would be perfectly willing to tell you that they don't have absolute pitch but relative pitch, which is what you've described in your posts when you speak of "learning" absolute pitch.
To respond to your later tangent, there are people who are born with musical talent. You are correct in that being born with a talent does not make you a musician in and of itself. Practice and a whole host of other things are what make a musician.
For an (anecdotal) example. My father is a well respected trumpet player. He was principal trumpet in the Washington DC based Air Force band for most of my life. He has some natural musical talent but mostly he had to work for his abilities by several hours of practice every day. He wanted to be good at what he does and he worked hard to be so.
My brother and I both have more "natural" (for lack of a better word) musical talent. I haven't practiced my flute in over a year but I could pick it up tomorrow and play several grade six pieces and make them sound musical and technically correct with little difficulty. It might take a few days of practice to make it sound polished, but it would be technically correct and there would be musicality present. I never chose to go professional (and flute is no longer my primary instrument, I am a classically trained vocalist) my father did. Just because he got paid for his efforts doesn't make him any less a musician. Frankly, because he worked for his abilities and mine came more naturally, I consider him the better musician.
By the way, just to enhance my above point, having grown up around dozens of musicians I can tell you that most would not say that they have learned absolute (or perfect) pitch. If you don't believe me, head to your nearest school of music and poll the professors. Most (maybe not all) but most will tell you that you can't learn absolute pitch.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Hi Belle,
A similar but different avenue for you to look at.
If you look at a scale on a piano there are 12 notes, each meant to be a semi tone apart. C, C+, D, D+, E, F, F+, G, G+, A, A+, B. Then they repeat.
A physisist would expect to be able to measure the frequency of two C's one octave apart and place the other 12 as twelths between this .... however this isn't the case ... they are slightly off ... which is why playing the same piece is a different key changes the sound / mood as the reletive spaces between notes change.
On a piano this is futher complicated as each piano note has 3 strings ... which are all tuned slightly differently as this gives the individual note more depth. Learning how to tune a piano is magic / art and perhaps finding one to accompany for the day would help with the research for the book.
Let me know if you want more details or clarification!
Good Luck!
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Acutally, they would probably assume that you were playing a 440 "A" since that's the most common tuning pitch and it's only half a step away from that B-flat.
This is just something we'll have to disagree on. I think that they would know immediately and offer a polite cough or laugh, or a similar reaction that OSC has when he sees a misspelled word in a published text.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I think that they would know immediately and offer a polite cough or laugh, or a similar reaction that OSC has when he sees a misspelled word in a published text.
I asked my brother this question, and his response was "Probably the pianists and the horns would notice, and certainly the saxophones. But that has nothing to do with having perfect pitch, but rather the limitations of their instruments. If you played a B-flat doorbell, out of context, they wouldn't be able to tell you what note it was, and that's what absolute pitch is."
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Irami, my parents discovered I had perfect pitch when I was under the age of five. I had had only minimal musical training--enough to know the names of the notes and play "Mary Had a Little Lamb."
And firebird, I had no idea, but I'd often wondered! Thanks for sharing that!
<-- does not claim to be a good musician
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
I've learned how to identify piano notes. I can call out the right names, name the key, etc.I can not do this for violin. I can not do this for drums, etc. If the doorbell rings I have an idea of the approx. note, but nothing more. For me it's memory. I have played piano enough to -know- how the different piano notes sound.
My cousin, however, has always been gifted at vocal and music. Before he learned to talk he already started mimicking bird calls perfectly. It was identical. He did this for over two years- it didn't matter if he hadn't heard a bird for months. (He didn't do this just for birds, he did this for everything that made noise). He has perfect pitch. He started piano and violin at a young age (3 or 4?) and once he knew the names of notes he went through an annoying stage of labeling any noise with its note. Luckily he's long grown out of that stage.
I disagree with Irami's comparisons to grammar. In my opinion most anybody can memorize rules. Just as most anybody can memorize how something sounds. That isn’t a good comparison at all. Perhaps athletics- no matter how much I may train I will never be a fast runner. I just wasn’t born with the right combination of traits, etc. I can practice everyday, all day and I’d never come close. Some people just are born with certain traits that lead to certain talents. (I just have to look at my cousin- I, once again, can’t and have never been able to reproduce bird noises. He has –always- been able to).
----- I should add I do not consider myself to be a musician. I am a person who plays piano because I enjoy it and am decently good at it. I do, however, have my Royal Conservatory (Piano) Teachers Papers if that means anything to anybody (I’m not sure if RC is international or only Canadian).
[ October 14, 2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Brinestone and Jaiden,
I still think that it's a matter of disposition, priorities, and listening habits, and maybe even it functions the same way as some learning disabilities.
But I still believe that after twenty years of slow practice on one hand and memorzing concerto after concerto on the other, it's going to come.
Brinestone,
And I'm going to say it, and it's controversial but it matches my intuitions and my experience, I believe that you lucked into the right disposition for perfect pitch. Heck, had your house had more or less racket in it or your parents yelled more or less or I don't even know, notes may be fuzzier to you than they are.
I can't enumerate the exact variables that go along with it, but I've seen too many suspect cases of perfect pitch to jump on the "Born with it," bandwagon. It seems to work like spelling well. I imagine that some people are born good spellers, but I think that these people just have a felicitous disposition towards the written word, anyone who can obtain that disposition, whether at 5 or 60, will be able to reap the fruits.
Like I said before, "born with it" is easy. In only three words, you can explain the entire sum of skills and talents, and even the distribution of rewards flowing from those skills and talents. I'm saying that people seem to me to be more similar than different in these areas and, to a large extent, attitude, disposition, and attention-- conscious and unconscious-- explain the differences.
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