I know that there have been multiple discussions of immigration policy in the USA, and more specifically, illegal immigration in the USA, but with this seemingly new dedication to the eradication of illegal immigrants, there should be plenty more to say.
I am of the opinion that immigrants are an invaluable and necessary part of the American fabric and we should continue to encourage those immigrants who want to stay and work in America, who want to raise their families and contribute something to society, to continue immigrating to America.
But I am not in favor of those laws that let an unlimited number of family members of an immigrant be automatically ushered into the country. I am also not in favor of any policy that just gives a *wink wink* to illegal immigrants.
Every person who visits or who wants to immigrate to this country should be treated as a possible terrorist. That is the only way to protect our country from this threat.
Of course, not everyone who immigrates to this country is a terrorist, or would ever even consider becoming one. 99% of the immigrants and visitors to this country are just normal joes, but it's the 1% that we must guard against. The only way that we can do that is if we know WHO exactly the people are and what they are likely to do when they get here. That means background checks and the like; it also means profiling to save time and money. That means that Muslim men 18-40 are at the top of the list. Since that group of people have launched the vast majority of attacks against our country and our culture, it seems absurd that they should not be evaluated more closely than other immigrants, or indeed, other citizens.
Bottom line, I am in favor of this new emphasis on cracking down on illegals, I believe this has been a major failing of the Bush Administration up to this point because immigration is no longer just a social issue, it is a national defense issue.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
My opinion on the general circumstances is probably even less certain for me, seeing as I live about 130 miles from the most active segment of the US-Mexico border. A popular theory here is that it won't be a lack of water that slows down or kills Phoenix's growth, it will be the elimination of the illegal immigrant work force. The entire region's dirty little secret (whether it is admitted or not) is that the growth rates in Phoenix (and I'm sure Las Vegas) simply could not be supported by legitimate workers and wages. Would I like to see something done to control illegal immigration, yes. Do I think it's possible (and better than the current situation), I don't know.
Regarding that article, either the writer or the US Security Chief is grossly understating the problem of illegal immigration at the US-Mexico border. Arizona, New Mexico, and California have all declared states of emergency in the last few months in their border counties just to find a federal loophole. One that allows them to increase funds and employ more border patrol, just as a stop-gap measure. I personally do not believe anything short of a full military deployment would solve border crossings in a year's time. Add to that the fact that nothing short of an act of diety would remove all the people who are here illegally (intentionally or unknowingly). I'd wager that the general public here is far more ready for action (any at this point) than your average American. Here it's no longer a social issue, it's something more of an identity crisis. Add into that the general nation defense concerns, and you start to see things like Resolution 200 (I'll link it later, just accept for now that it isn't pleasant). Resolution 200 managed to pass despite being condemned by nearly every political party, politician, and respected foundations / organizations.
No, there isn't much of a point to this rambling post, other than to laugh at the simplicity implied by that article.
EDIT: Grammar
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I am also not in favor of any policy that just gives a *wink wink* to illegal immigrants.
Like, you know, allowing their children an education, or allowing them basic emergency and prenatal health care? Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
However many background checks you do there are still going to be people getting through.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm surprised at that 1% figure. If one in every 100 immigrants was a terrorist, I'd actually be in favor of closing our borders and guarding them with rabid pit bulls.
I suspect, however, that the real situation is that immigrants, legal and otherwise, are coming here in the hope of a better life for themselves and their children. They work, spend money, and many of them (even the illegal ones) pay taxes far in excess of the cost society incurs for their presence here.
More importantly, their children become even more productive members of society. Historically, this country has benefited greatly (out of all proportion) from the the contributions of first and 2nd generation Americans.
To deny ourselves immigrants now is to deny ourselves the benefits that their children will bring in the future.
One fairly obvious benefit, seems to me, is that these are the folks whose children will keep Social Security afloat if we let them. They'll come here, work hard, and have children who will work hard, etc.
What we probably need are a few more restrictions and controls to minimize some of the most obvious problems with our current immigration policies.
First off, communities do face a burden if they experience a rapid influx of low wage workers or undocumented aliens. This is especially true if the people bring school age children or have children while here. If we as a country decide that a certain amount of low-wage immigration (legal or otherwise) is acceptable, then we should be willing to help out the border areas with funds to build schools and see to it that the local economies aren't over-burdened with school construction, increases in public assistance spending, charitable health care cases, and the like. It's a national thing with local and regional hardships, and we should recognize and it and deal with it.
2) This is not a free market situation, IMHO. What happens, basically, is that employers are breaking the law and creating an artificially low wage ceiling in many occupations. This is certainly true in the Southern portion of the country where illegal workers are exploited (in all senses of the word) by employers who are trying to keep wages low and profits high. The impact on the surrounding communities is pretty devastating, IMHO. Unskilled labor falls so far below the poverty level that communities have to pay public assistance to avoid major health crises and rampant starvation. I'm not quite sure how to address this, however. I mean, if you made hotels in Kissimmee, FL hire only legally documented workers in their housekeeping areas, they'd end up having to charge so much for room rates that it'd kill the tourism industry there. It's a vicious cycle.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Let's face it, the vast majority of illegal immigrants are really economic refugees. They are leaving places so abysmally poor that they are willing to risk their lives to cross a border and work at the lowliest jobs available just for the chance to earn what we would consider well below the living wage.
These are people who are selling themselves into near slavery just for a faint glimmer of a chance at a better life.
Yes, there are some people who come to this country illegaly with the intent of doing us harm, be there terrorists, drug dealers or other criminals. Trust me, they are going to come here no matter what we do. And they aren't the ones willing to be packed like sardines into the back of a panel truck for a late night run at the growing fields of southern California.
What we need to do is work on opening up and streamlining the immigration progress. Make it easier to be a legal immigrant than to be an illegal one. Reward people who come here to work. Protect them from predators.
Hand them a shovel, pay them a decent wage and let them know that a better day is ahead. Don't make them fear that their boss will turn them in to INS if they ask for shorter work days or more money for the backbreaking labor they do.
Educate their children, provide them with the baseline healthcare that they need. And also provide them with a Social Security number and the opportunity to pay taxes on their earnings (as well as for their employers to as well).
Bob spoke about the vicious cycle, and he's right to a degree. Up until 140 years ago, a group of Southern plantation owners made the same argument about slave labor. They weren't right back then. And they aren't right now. It doesn't matter if it's the Tara Plantation or the Miami Beach Hilton or Joe's Lawn and Garden service.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I saw a nebulous mention of profiling in the first post . . . how would you suggest using this? What does this mean? Okay, Arabs aged 18 - 40 . . . what about them? Don't let them in the country, but let others in? I just want to be clear on what you are favoring.
I think "background checks" sound good, but are practically unworkable. No other country has the paper trail that this country does. Too many people from third world countries have no documentable existence in their own homelands. And we lack access to such networks as do exist in those countries, so I don't see how background checks can possibly effective.
I don't know precisely what is meant by "wink wink nudge nudge," but it would be foolish and counterproductive to prevent illegal immigrants from getting drivers licenses, for instance. Because they are going to drive anyway, but if they can't get a license, they can't get insurance. That means that when an illegal hits your car, you will have no recourse. If they deport him, will that fix your trashed car? The economic impact of every illegal alien being an uninsured motorist is pretty large.
Illegal aliens also should have access to public schooling for their noncitizen kids. (Quite often, their kids are citizens, and are entitled to schooling anyway.) To do otherwise would be economically short-sighted. Why? Because, as long as they are going to be here anyway, not providing their kids with education just means creating a permanent underclass. Study after study has shown: investments in public education pay off like no other public investment. (And I'm not as staunch an advocate of public education as people tend to assume.) If their kids can't get educated, and they grow up unable to get welfare, they will be the panhandlers and criminals of the future (in larger numbers than they already are.) Economically, it makes sense to give people the tools to work their way out of a reliance on handouts.
What about healthcare for illegals? Well, I suppose it makes a certain kind of cold sense to let illegals die in greater numbers when they get sick. They'll be less of a drain this way, right? But what about the increased spread of disease from having a population with less access to healthcare? When I was in my twenties I worked on an NIH study modeling the spread of HIV in South Florida. You better believe an indigent population with limited access to healthcare was an unbelievable contributing factor.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't see a problem with deporting large numbers of illegal immigrants. Cracking down on illegals isn't stopping LEGAL immigration, so those who say that ending immigration will kill America's lifeblood because we want to crack down on illegal immigrants is just plain silly.
Illegal immigration is itself a stopgap measure. Illegals come here for a better life and send billions of American dollars back home to their families. Many of them flock to inner cities where their youth become part of the poverty ridden crime that runs amok in those places.
I have no problem with sending them all home and then starting from scratch. Are there jobs here that Americans don't want? Sure. So fine, give them worker visas to come here, make money at fair wages, and then go home when the work is done, or some sort of work-to-citizenship program where after awhile they can become citizens. Other than that, get on the list like everyone else.
And saying "terrorists are going to get in no matter what" is being very cavalier with our security. Hell, why guard the borders or airports at all? If they are going to get in anyway, let's save the money and not bother guarding anything.
The key part of illegal immigration is the ILLEGAL part. Either make them full citizens, and prepare to accept the consequences that come along with it, which I think is unfair to a world of desiring immigrants, and bad for America, or send them home, as they are ILLEGAL immigrants.
Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
The terrorists who were involved in the 9/11 hijackings came into the country with approved visas.
As we have sent nearly all of our manufacturing efforts abroad, what will we have left to do in the big picture? If we're trying to focus on "higher" job opportunities than manufacturing, shouldn't we be spending about ten times as much on education?
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Icarus, if they are here illegally and we give them a drivers license they are still under no obligation to get any kind of insurance. I don't think giving them a DL would make them go out and pay for insurance, why would they? They are here illegally and could be deported at any time.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
1)In many states, you cannot get a drivers liscence without proof that you have insurance.
2)Many people who are unfamiliar with the immigration situation in the US assume that illegal immigrants come here only because they are too lazy to do it the legal way. What they do not realize is that there is a 10 year wait for legal immigration, or longer, and that it costs more money than these people make in several years. Even then you can be denied at the last minute. The US has gotten out of the habit of allowing legal immigration of the poor, the hungry, those yearning to be free, but instead want the smart, the wealthy, those with money to spend.
3) This is something that could split the Republican party, which is why it is often ignored by powerful people within the party. Business needs and wants the cheap labor that illegal immigrants provide. They are prime financial supporters of the Republican party. However, the social conservatives are more law and order. They see this as illegal immigrants being illegal first, poor second (which some consider a sign of laziness and hence a sin) and there are a few who fear the loss of Identity the "Browning of America" creates. They want Illegal Immigration stopped.
If the Republicans remain in power, I wonder who will win this fight?
Posted by Tzadik (Member # 5825) on :
quote: Every person who visits or who wants to immigrate to this country should be treated as a possible terrorist. That is the only way to protect our country from this threat.
Can you picture that the rest of the world would introduce the same measures for US citizens. Immagine that you have to spend several hours wainting in a line in front of an embassy of any European country, then you go in, you pay 100$ non refundable fee, you provide the consular employe with any possible documentation, you are asked various questions and then they tell you that your US visa is REJECTED because you are single and young and you only want to go the US to marry and get a US green card. This is not a made up story, this happened to my friend. There were 3 of us, wanting to come to US in 1997 and travel during our summer break. Only 2 of us came.
I understand the protection of the US, as a matter of fact, I had to go through immigration last week (as I am typing this I am sitting at my mother's in law house in the US). And I don't mind security checks etc. But, there's a BUT. I wish I could see the same checks etc. being applied to US nationals traveling abroad. I have many experience (either business and/or private) where I saw an american waving his/her passport in my country and calling it and it's officials stupid, just because they required the americans to abide by our internal immigration laws (which are less strict than the US ones).
Well, what I want to say is, that I don't mind having my fingerprints and picture taken upon entering the US, I don't mind having to have a visa and go through several security checks.
But what I mind is to see some of the americans who travel overseas act as if the immigration laws of the particular country should have an exception just for Americans.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
For those of us who love freedom, the ways to deal with huge numbers violating a law because they're desperate are to repeal the law, or make them less desperate.
For those of us who don't, bigger punishments and more money spent on law enforcement is the way. We can consider the War on Drugs to see how well it works.
Freedom isn't just better for the people; it's cheaper and more effective.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
1)So why even bother to get a DL when you give just drive illegally? If you must have insurance to get a DL, why bother? There are plenty of uninsured American citizens driving around. 2)Wouldn't it better to spend money on streamlining the immigration process and making it much faster to legally immigrate? Why wouldn't we want smart, wealthy people with money to spend to immigrate to our country? Are we only supposed to let in the poor, the hungry, those yearning to be free? I don't think the US has a 'habit' either way. 3)I think you have generalized way too much to be able to effectively respond to this one, especially about social conservatives
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote: - posted October 19, 2005 07:47 AM Profile for Tzadik Email Tzadik Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
quote: Every person who visits or who wants to immigrate to this country should be treated as a possible terrorist. That is the only way to protect our country from this threat.
Can you picture that the rest of the world would introduce the same measures for US citizens. Immagine that you have to spend several hours wainting in a line in front of an embassy of any European country, then you go in, you pay 100$ non refundable fee, you provide the consular employe with any possible documentation, you are asked various questions and then they tell you that your US visa is REJECTED because you are single and young and you only want to go the US to marry and get a US green card. This is not a made up story, this happened to my friend. There were 3 of us, wanting to come to US in 1997 and travel during our summer break. Only 2 of us came.
I had the same thing happen to some friends. I went with married friend and his wife to the US embassy in Jerusalem. They had to sneak in, by the way, because they weren't allowed into Jerusalem because they were Palestinians from Hebron. They got their visas, but when we asked for the woman's brother, it was flatly denied. We were told that same story -- the assumption was that he would come to the US and try to marry an American woman to get his green card. There was no reason for him to come home because he didn't have a wife here.
So...at the time anyway, married couples could come to America because they had someone to go home to (odd, of course, because the couple was traveling together) but the unmarried can't come here 'cuz they might hook up with our women.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
This link France Immigration speaks to the same thing about France puting tight controls onto their immigration policy. I highly doubt that America is really any worse to immigrate to than other European countries.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I'm glad most of you have come around (or were around already ). I say we open up the borders, with the condition that everyone who comes through looking for work checks in at the border and gets a one-year work visa. If you don't renew at the end of the year, and your status is unknown (no response from place of employment/home address), we come looking for you, and offer you a second year-long visa (or third, or fourth...).
We institute heavy fines for companies who hire people without visas. We deport anyone with false visas, and put them on our security lists. All employers should have employee socials or visa numbers on file. They should be given information about reporting people who come looking for a job without either of these.
And despite my knee-jerk liberal tendencies, with the opening of the border, we should lower the minimum wage some amount.
People are the last highly restricted resource in this new global economy. Why do we treat people worse than peanuts?
-Bok
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
quote:Icarus, if they are here illegally and we give them a drivers license they are still under no obligation to get any kind of insurance. I don't think giving them a DL would make them go out and pay for insurance, why would they? They are here illegally and could be deported at any time.
They're under the same obligation as you are.
Why do you have insurance?
How many illegal aliens do you know? I know at least a dozen. They get insurance because you need to get insurance to get a driver's license. They get a driver's license because it is the unofficial ID card of our country, and you need one for a wide variety of purposes. Also, these people are not self-serving criminals, despite being in the country illegally. You post shows your base assumption that illegal immigrants are, at heart, criminals. The ones I know are here illegally because there is no opportunity, or no safety, in their homeland. But they want to be exactly like us. They work. They go to church. They donate to charity. They pay their debts. They don't rob liquor stores or deal drugs. Why would they get insurance? Why do you? Same reason. To be protected from crippling debt in the event of an accident. Because being able to pay for what you do is the right thing to do.
A lot of US citizens do not have auto insurance, true. Is the answer to outlaw insurance so nobody can? Well, same goes for illegal immigrants. Are there some who would drive illegally? Well, sure, but shouldn't you make it (keep it) possible for them to be legal, insured drivers, so that they can? Wouldn't that be better for aliens and Americans alike?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"There are plenty of uninsured American citizens driving around."
Not in Michigan there aren't! At least, not as many as in other places I suspect. It's illegal to be uninsured.
I don't have a real problem with loosening immigration standards, so long as that was followed by deporting all illegal immigrants. The legal way to get in is unfair? Fine, fix it. Fix it, but don't give a green light to everyone else, otherwise why bother having the INS at all?
And in a moment of deja vu, I'll counter Bokonon's arguments. Lowering the minimum wage would devastate much of middle and lower class America. Many states have minimum wages higher than the national minimum wage. If you are going to lower their wages, you'd have to almost eliminate all taxes they would have to pay too, in an effort to neutralize their lost income. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive. It's a different story to an immigrant who can send 10 bucks home, where 10 American dollars has a higher purchasing power and items cost less.
I also have no problems with work visas, but with stricter controls, maybe some sort of parole officer program where the workers have to check in with someone and they can't leave the state. We don't need MORE restrictions, just BETTER ones, more effective ones. What we are doing now just makes it more complicated to get in, it doesn't make us any safer.
And no, I don't think illegal aliens should be issued driver's licenses, I think they should be issued plane or bus tickets to the border.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Goo Boy, my post shows nothing of the sort. I have no base assumption that illegal immigrants are, at heart, criminals. They are committing an illegal act by the very nature of being an illegal immigrant, but I would not and do not assume that they are criminals in the sense or robbing and stealing. Giving illegal aliens Dl, insurance while they are here illegally is counterproductive. We should be working to make it easier for them to be legal immigrants than helping them be illegal immigrants. Since lyrhawn mentioned Michigan I will post a link, although it is an old one, that talks about how many uninsured drivers there are. Michigan 1.1 million estimated in Michigan....
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bad Michiganders! Though that story was from 2 years ago, we could have improved since then!
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Psst, the illegals are here, and they are getting paid less than minimum wage in many cases already. If you don't lower the minimum wage when allowing in many more workers who might otherwise be illegals, you'll end up the following scenario:
The folks that would register legally won't, since they'll be forced to find jobs at the higher rate; the whole reason these people are hired is because they are cheaper. You force people to take the higher wage, and there won't be a reason to hire them legally, so you'll end up with the same problem as now, namely, people working under the radar without ANY protections, except what states put together piecemeal.
You have to lower the minimum wage, at least initially, because your forcing employers (with stiff fines as a penalty) to put these people on the books (at a minimum with taxes and social security witholding, and possibly insurance and the like). You can bump it up over time.
Adding more workers is really a good way out of a decent amount of issues facing the US, including social security (broadening the pool to pay into our safety nets), sluggish economy (more consumers/producers), increased competitiveness as a _produce_ on the global market (lower minimum wage and probably a general lowering of payscales due to competition for jobs), a future dividend (the children of these workers could be US citizens, and we will gain from having more of us in the fold), good diplomatic PR (living up to some of ideals in a surprising manner to most folks outside of the US), and reverse the "brain drain".
It may not _solve_ all those issues, but I can see benefits.
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
DK, the thing is, the states that often issue those licenses are in a bit of a bind. They are facing this issue right up front, and since the feds seem to feel no real pressure to address it in any substantive way, they have to do something. About the only system in place to help states keep track of citizens is a drivers license; it's also ideal, because there is likely pretty strong demand from illegals to get a license. So better to issue them and make these illegals more legal (or as legal as a state can), than nothing.
-Bok
Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
What Bok said.
Some people here have inferred into my posts an argument for open borders. I have neither argued for nor against this. You wanna deport all illegal immigrants? Well, then if you do there will be nobody to give drivers licenses to, so you won't have to.
Here in the real world, though, the illegals are here, and while you may tighten security, you won't succeed in keeping them out. There are too many Americans who benefit from their presence. My post was not in response to whether or not we should deport all illegal immigrants, but rather in response to this statement:
quote:I am also not in favor of any policy that just gives a *wink wink* to illegal immigrants.
I am not entirely sure what it means, since I have never seen the words "*wink wink*" in any referendum. I can only assume this characterization refers to any measures which give illegal immigrants any rights whatsoever, such as a right to receive schooling or to acquire a drivers license. It was in this context that I addressed the issue: giving illegals licenses and insurance and education versus having illegals and not allowing them these things. If you're going to have illegals, clearly you ought to give them the mechanism to not be a drain on our economy.
quote:Goo Boy, my post shows nothing of the sort. I have no base assumption that illegal immigrants are, at heart, criminals.
I apologize if I gave offense. I was responding to this statement of yours:
quote:Icarus, if they are here illegally and we give them a drivers license they are still under no obligation to get any kind of insurance. I don't think giving them a DL would make them go out and pay for insurance, why would they?
I saw in this statement the supposition that, having ignored our Keep Out sign, illegal immigrants were clearly scofflaws. Since the law requires that you have insurance to drive, your assumption that they would do otherwise certainly seemed to imply as much to me. Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted. The fact remains, though, that, regardless of your intentions, the statement that illegal aliens would not get insurance given the opportunity is no more true for illegal aliens than it is for citizens.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bokonon -
You're ignoring a lot of things too.
What are you going to do to the Americans who already have jobs that pay out at minimum wage? You want to do this to benefit immigrants, but you aren't going to protect the people that already are and have been Americans since they were born or legally went through the naturalization process? Why are you punishing them with no provision for compensation? And if they bump it back up over time, that brings us right back to zero, except now we have a huge unqualified workforce who can't perform highly technical jobs, and in an economy with shrinking manufacturing jobs, that seems like a catastrophic formula.
And you want to add workers to get rid of the Social Security problem? Alright, the people coming into this country aren't all young workers, many are middle aged. In 20 years THEY will start collecting social security after decades of NOT paying into it. Increasing the amount of people who will collect Social Security hoping that the money they will pay into it is going to stop gap the problem is a dangerous temporary solution. Unless you bring in an army of CHILD workers, you aren't solving the Social Security problem, you're pushing it back, and making it far more combustable.
I see temporary fixes that create as many problems as they solve.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You know, it is possible for companies to pay a living wage and survive. Especially larger companies. Many act like they can't, but there are viable examples of companies that do, and do quite well.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
There's been quiteafewarticles in the local newspaper lately about illegal immigration, because it is a fairly serious issue here in Arizona. There already are illegals that do things like paying into SS, paying taxes, and owning homes. Illegal have played a large part in the housing boom here and I'm sure they helped make it possible for us buy our house last year.
I do agree that we need to make it more advantageous to come to the US legally than illegally, but I'm not sure how to do that. Certainly, having a border control that actually exists would be helpful, but how do we fund it? What do we do with people that have been here for a while and are contributing economically and socially like any US citizen? I wouldn't really want to deport them, but where do you draw the line? What do you do about industries that would literally be decimated if the illegal immigrants were no longer available? Honestly, I can't think of any good solutions.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Lyr, there's no perfect solution. You can't kick them all out (or even most) without some particularly draconian and autocratic measures. In the mean time they are here, and many are being exploited and living in crappy conditions, with no recourse outside of some inefficient and patchwork legislation in the various states that have thought to provide recourse. Are people going to suffer, most likely lower class working folks? Unfortunately yes. But even NOW, these people are suffering because illegals are doing jobs they could have, for less than a regular citizen is legally allowed to take. They are being harmed, substantively, now, and the illegals aren't paying much/any taxes that could provide them help.
kq, The lowering of the minimum wage is largely for the smaller businesses (or smaller sub-contracters that bigger businesses hire) that often hire illegals. Not that bigger businesses don't, as you said, they could probably afford to absorb most of the cost anyway, and yet would bring the most lobbying to bear to kill any sort legislation that might require them to pay more to illegals they do hire. The lowering (NOT abolishment) of the minimum wage is a compromise I'm willing to suggest.
Lyr, you're also ignoring the fact that many may stay here extended periods of time, even settling here. They will raise a family, they (and especially their children) will have much more accessible educational opportunities. If they return to their homelands, then they'll at least have paid some taxes, and will have invested in their homelands, making it a place more receptive to our own corporations.
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
ludosti, it's a lot easier to control the border when people know they won't get shot crossing the desert (this is probably more perception than reality, but that's also hard to clear up when those that hold it are hiding), and will actually be assisted over the border with a work visa, IMO.
-Bok
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Did anyone see "The O'Reilly Factor" last night? He was upset about a Dallas editorial.
Bill was very upset and in his words, it seemed to me that he believed the Dallas article accused him of being responsible for the deaths. In reading the article, I think he's a bit wacky.
But I was amused last night when watching the show.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bok -
I'm willing to compromise. If there is an illegal family living here, working, willing to pay taxes, have children that need schooling and are a longstanding member of a community then legalize them. I'm not unreasonable, but you can't claim that EVERY illegal immigrant is that kind of helpful contributing member to American society. Even if it were half and half, that's a LOT of dead weight.
And I still want to hear what you plan to do to protect the middle and lower class American families who would drastically suffer under the conditions you propose enacting upon them.
Edit to add: You know it isn't just lower and middle class families living off minimum wage. Half my friends in college right now are putting themselves through school via a VERY fragile combination of minimum wage jobs and student loans. You reduce their hourly wage, they don't get to go to school anymore. And I'm sure there are thousands more just like em. I worry about what would happen to MY wage too. Every hourly employee in the nation not protected by a union will be biting their nails.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I'm not unreasonable, but you can't claim that EVERY illegal immigrant is that kind of helpful contributing member to American society.
Neither is every natural-born citizen.
I'd say most illegal immigrants are far more willing to work hard and do what they have to to provide for their families than a significant number of American citizens.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You can't legally deport American citizens though, no matter what kind of drag on society they are. The same isn't true for illegal immigrants.
I don't agree with your statement about illegal families being more willing to work for their families. I know plenty of lower middle class families whose parents do a lot of crap to provide for their families. On what basis do you make that statement? Facts? Statistics? Perrsonal experiences?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
But you're only thinking of them in the now, in a time period of "outsourcing" and "brain drain", where there are illegals already undercutting citizens. You close up borders, and IMO, there's a decent chance the USA goes the way of Spain, after the Age of Exploration. What are you going to say when the jobless rate is higher and investment in the US economy shrinks if current trends continue? "Sorry, we're just not as wealthy anymore, but at least we're trying to cling what we have better than ever!"
At some point, this country is going to have to take some real risks, IMO. The sooner, the less painful in the long-run.
-Bok
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'm not saying most lower middle class families aren't willing to work.
I'm saying there is a significant number of poor people in this country who don't work for whatever reason. If illegal immigrants don't work, they don't eat and they don't have a place to stay. There's not nearly as much of a "safety net" in place to catch them. And I think you grossly overestimate both the resources available to them and the number of illegal immigrants who are not willing to work at almost any cost. How many illegal immigrants do you know? Have you spent time working with organizations that try to assist them and their children? I have. It's heartbreaking what they will do to be in this country.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm not a fan of closing up the borders and not letting anyone in.
I AM a fan of figuring out the problems currently in American. Remember, this is an America with a debilitating shortage of nurses, and a growing lack of general surgeons. Our healthcare system is in tatters, shame of the western world, and it can't handle millions of new cases. If it tried, everyone would suffer.
Like before, I've never advocated a totally closed border and an end to immigration. But uncontrolled immigration? Millions of people we don't really have the resources to properly care for?
No, I don't have a problem with immigration, but here is where my priorities lie:
Millions of Americans that already don't have jobs, don't have access to healthcare, don't have homes, don't have any real hope of a future.
What are you going to do for them? And at what point do they garner consideration? And why isn't that consideration greater than that of illegal immigrants?
Edit to add:
KQ - I have a problem rewarding people who go around the law. Yes, they are here, and yes they are desperate, I recognize that. So change the system, instead of providing them a load of reasons for why illegal immigration is good for them. Show them how a new legal immigration could work for them. Help their own nations to be able to better care for them, and then send them back to live in that improved environment. But protecting and supporting them now isn't going to make them ever want to leave. And we can't support them if they all stay.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:What are you going to do for them? And at what point do they garner consideration? And why isn't that consideration greater than that of illegal immigrants?
At what point did anyone ever say that consideration should be given to illegal immigrants over anyone? I think your emotions and prejudices are overly coloring your readings of some people's statements.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Talking of lowering the minimum wage for the sake of illegal immigrants totally ignores the plight of the American working class.
That gives consideration to illegals over legal Americans. Explain to me how it doesn't, and I'll retract my statement.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh.
Well, I think minimum wage is already too low in many places to allow for any reasonable chance of a decent standard of living, so I would never consider it. But I think that the person who said that doesn't feel that way.
(And hey, bud, you're being pretty touchy and confrontational. Maybe you need to take a break in one of the game threads for a few minutes and cool off. )
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hmmmm game threads ::hears the call::
You're probably right. Sorry.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The think of a lyric thread needs some attention. Page 6.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
It's ironic, in a way. When I was back in college ~5-10 years ago, I read an article that made the argument that med schools purposefully limited admission to help keep doctor's salaries high (which in turn means they can kick back more to the schools in gifts). It's also likely they do it to look "exclusive", which can allow them to jack up their tuition.
Seems similar to the way you want to solve the immigration problem, yet your solution for illegal immigrants, likely, in part, causes some of the problems you decry in our healthcare.
I'm not a slave to the free market. I'm actually pretty liberal (some form of national healthcare, welfare, etc.), but the free market, as a tool, has its uses. ---
Lowering the minimum wage, while enacting stricter fines on businesses who hire illegals, while making it very easy for immigrants to at least get medium- to long-term work visas opens up:
1) A new market of people, who likely get a raise, even with lowering the minimum wage. They will likely buy products from companies that will hire more workers (not all at minimum wage), some of which may be otherwise unemployed American citizens. Increase of demand == increase in jobs.
2) Those illegals become legals. They become a part of "Us" (and the "US"). Their fate is our fate.
3) Jobs that illegals are getting almost exclusively will be more available to existing citizens, since we'll all be playing by the same rules. If current citizens don't want to work in the fields, that becomes THEIR problem.
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
And for the record, if I could enacting a living wage (and a job) for every American, I'd do it. But you work with the system you have. And despite some major shortcomings, some form of market economics can be a good system for societies. I see no reason to make an end around on it every time there are market inefficiencies (as the existence of illegal immigration implies).
-Bok
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You cannot in any good conscience propose lowering minimum wage without allowing for better public assistance and public health care, though. There are enough people without food, health care, and a place to live as it is. Lowering minimum wage is going to compound that problem unless you figure out a better way to help those that fall beneath the "making it" mark.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I can with trepidation, and some hope.
Of course, I would expect my ideas to be vetted against real data, and if it were unworkable, it wouldn't happen.
-Bok
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The economic viability of the plan is an academic argument at best.
The American public would never go for it. If most senators, congressmen or presidents (I know we only have one, I meant from any party) supported it, they'd lose popular support, and their seat. Thus, they'll never support it.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I can't discuss the illegal immigration issue without relating it to my own family's history. My great grandfather entered the country illegally. He worked as a men's room attendant. His wife (a legal immigrant) was a hair dresser. They put their son (born in the US and thus a citizen automatically) through school at RPI.
He used his engineering talents in various positions including the US Army and for several defense contractors.
He held patents for deep sea deployable nuclear-powered sonar devices. Stuff used to keep watch over the undersea routes between the USSR and our nearby seas.
He helped design inflight refueling for warplanes.
He helped raise two sons who contribute the country in numerous ways (including saving lives in traffic safety, designing better diabetes test equipment, and so on).
Whenever I hear people talking about how awful illegal immigration is, I just want to scream F-you!
THen I realize that they may just be lacking a certain perspective. Sure, if you live in an area that is currently being over-run with illegal aliens, there are hardships. There were major problems in NYC during the peak of immigration from European lands in earlier centuries. It wasn't always pleasant and people didn't always succeed and become law abiding productive members of society.
But I just have to say that America owes a hell of a lot to its immigrants, even (or maybe especially) the ones who gave up EVERYTHING and came here with the clothes on their backs and little else.
And to deny that, or shut off that supply of future talent is, to me, extremely shortsighted. And a really offensive thing to those of us whose families have been there, done that, and made a huge contribution all out of proportion to our numbers. And never asked a freakin' thing in return except to be treated as equal AFTER the first generation.
[/tirade]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My grandfather came here legally from Quebec in the 1920's. He fought in World War Two, mainly stationed in Britain at the White Cliffs of Dover shooting down buzz bombs and other things that threatened the skies above Britain. His unit had the best kill rate in all the allied forces. He was injured three seperate times during his service. When he got out of the service, he delivered mail for forty years, and then retired.
Both of his sons fought in Vietnam. His grandson, my brother, was in the Marines for two years, being cut early because of medical problems he suffered while in training. And my family has contributed far more than just military service. There are teachers, doctors, engineers, a youth minister, and many others who all come from a man who legally came to this country more than 80 years ago.
I haven't heard anyone here, especially myself, say that we should end all immigration and close the doors in an effort to keep everyone out. But for the sake of those who want to come here, and the sake of those who are already here, more has to be done to prepare America for that kind of influx of people. We are woefully unprepared as it is, and instead of everyone benefitting from the good that immigrants bring, everyone is suffering from the problems they present.
You have a story, I have a story, probably every American on Hatrack has a story. But stories and traditions don't change the situation in America right now. We have a tradition of immigration, one that I would never want to put an end to. But we have to be RESPONSIBLE about it, for the fairness and well being of everyone involved, be they legal, illegal immigrants, or Americans.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But there are big problems in our immigration system. There will be large numbers of illegal immigrants until we can solve them.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Then everyone needs to start talking about more fair immigration reform, economic rebuilding in Mexico and Central America, and fixing healthcare in America now.
"Kick the immigrants out!" and "Let them all stay!" helps no one.
How do we fix our healthcare system to enable it to handle a few million more people who will probably have more health problems, having never had access to a good healthcare system?
How are we going to make Social Security work with a million or more middle aged people coming in on the verge of retirement without having paid into the system? That means major Social Security reform, so let's solve it.
How are we going to educate the hundreds of thousands of children, and educate them WELL! More money for education, more money for teachers, more money for schools, so how do we make it work?
How do we go about building a viable and economically sustainable Central America and Mexico, so these people can find safety and security at home and not have to be driven to seek a better life in America. How do we go about helping our neighbor, for the benefit of the people here at home, and our neighbors to the south?
Many of the immigrants don't speak English, how do we make it fair for them to vote, as educated citizens, without the system being tampered with or their rights as citizens denied to them?
Immigration is in many ways a culmination of every other issue in America. "Look at the good they can do, let them stay" is a valid argument, but until all these questions are answered and solved, it's an argument that will never win me over.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, there are some big problems there, and I have very strong ideas on the solutions to some of them-- but they're all issues that need to be solved for our sakes as much as for those of the immigrants! Unfortunately, politicians always seem to be looking for the quick fix, and that's not going to work here. Until we can fix it, I don't think it's fair to make sweeping policies in either direction.
Consider that the suggested solution of "kick them all out and start over" would cost money that could be spent on schools, health care, and creating sustainable agriculture and better infrastructure in third-world countries.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
There's a long and dishonorable history of hand-wringing over what to do about the relentless flood of immigrants. I'm not exactly sure that your sequence is the right one. Using words like "fair" and "until all these questions are answered and solved" are just smoke screens for halting immigration.
First off, that's impossible.
Secondly, it would likely do damage to our nation.
Thirdly, there's no realistic hope of solving, let alone answering all the questions you pose.
There never has been. And we've not only gotten along just fine, but thrived.
Lastly, the stories ARE important. Because it helps to remind people of what is at stake. If the folks who wanted all the questions solved first had gotten their way back when my grandparents were arriving here, I believe America would be a poorer place. Not just for a distinct lack of Scopatz's in the population, but cause of all the others too -- your people, mine and everyone elses who contributed so much more than they ever cost this country.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I never said stories such as yours or mine or anyone's weren't important.
You can't honestly compare the mass immigrations of the past in America to mass immigration now. America was different then. Our population was smaller, our capacity to take care of a growing population was far greater. Our population has doubled in the last fifty years, and the system is just barely keeping up with it. Yes, we have thrived, but how long until that bubble bursts?
Maybe you are referring to someone else Bob, though I think you're just making an in general statement, but I never suggested halting immigration entirely. On the contrary, I suggested increasing legalized immigration, and changing immigration laws to make it easier for immigrants to come in.
But saying that it is unrealistic to hope to solve all our problems, so we should just let people come in as they may, to hell with the consequences, it worked out in the past, surely it will work out now, is very, dangerously irresponsible.
If we do that, 20 years from now we're going to hear twice as many arguments about how Americans are trying to keep their latin american immigrants down, how they don't care about them and their plight. And what will we do then, when the problem is twice as bad?
You want to grow plants in a closed environment, you make sure there is sunlight, water, and good soil to make sure the plants grow. Now in the past there have been plenty of resources for those plants to thrive, yet currently we find a lack of all three. Do you think it is a good idea to keep planting more and more plants without resources in place to make sure they survive, just because it has worked in the past, ignoring the current situation and how it differs from the past one?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
So much for population density. The link lists population density, including the world average. The world is at 43. The USA is at 30.
I submit this as evidence that we aren't as overcrowded as you think.
ASIDE: I do think that our land use is terrible, and instead of all the subdivisions going up and adding sprawl, we should build up rather than out. It helps integrate communities, supports local businesses, and helps on various issues from traffic to oil consumption. The catch is that we Americans, in general, have never been been good neighbors.
As for your points:
1) We pay for their medical service now! They currently go to the ER, since they know they can't be turned away. Make legalization popular to them (and employers), and they pay for some of their health insurance, at least. Or they go to the ER, just like they currently do.
2) THat largely has to be resolved outide of the realm of immigration reform. We need some fiscal responsibility, ASAP. And immigrants won't make it any worse if we do that. Plus they take out based on what they put in.
3) Taxes collected will help pay for these kids. They are getting educated, even as illegals currently.
4) You hire Mexicans and Central Americans, and when they want to go back home, you let them. They'll invest in theirhome nations themselves... Likely using US dollars to buy US stuff.
BTW, I'm talking temporary work visas, not automatic citizenship... Who says they even want that? ---
The way you grow the plants is you stop using "closed environment", and let the roots go whither they want.
-Bok
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My problem isn't overcrowding, I think we certainly have the space for those that are coming in, my problem is our infrastructure.
They don't ALL go to the ER, thousands are afraid of being deported. Many communities and especially inner cities already have overtaxed underfunded hospitals that are just barely making due with what they have. Any added pressure will break them.
So long as we can make sure that they won't get any more out than they put into it, I agree it won't harm the system at all. But it will NOT, as you have previously stated, solve the system.
They aren't all being educated, and our classrooms are already overcrowded and understaffed across the country. Plus, you and others claims that many of these illegal immigrants are already paying taxes, so exactly how much extra money are you counting on flowing in once we start taxing all this untaxed labor?
Has there been a noticeable change in the economies of central american nations and Mexico? BILLIONS of American dollars already go down south of the border, how much more are you expecting to go down there? Especially if you lower the minimum wage, which will decrease our tax revenue.
Letting the plants grow wherever they want caused a few million immigrant deaths in our history by the way. Are you okay with a few million more?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
When was that, exactly? What's wrong with letting people work here for several years, go back to their home nations, and then return if they like? I think the issues (which there will be) won't be as bad as you fear... Because the fears people have had throughout US history about immigration were generally more overblown than reality.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The early 1800's and the early 1900's especially.
And if that were the case, I don't think I would have a problem with it, except even if it was, the US isn't set up to support a multimillion person transient population that comes and goes.
And I've seen no proof that a significant portion of the illegal immigrants have any intention of leaving anytime soon. Why has there been no decrease in the illegal immigrant population if this were the case?
Unless you are suggesting that when we throw open the borders to visa workers, they will pour in, and then pour back out again when they've made the money they want. That'd be an idea I'd be willing to discuss.
Even if I represent the most extreme view of my end of the spectrum, which I really think I don't, my concerns will have to be addressed, or a VIABLE solution that benefits everyone will never be found.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
You can't plan it all out ahead of time, Lyr. There are always risks. The alternative is stagnation, though. But at least it's stagnation with "our" people, I guess.
The illegals come and go. Many (most?) of the migrant works in this country are illegals. They're here for harvest seasons, and then leave. Many that don't leave, stay for fear that they won't be able to get back in later.
Also, what killed the immigrants in the time periods of the above?
-Bok
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Where is your information about the multi million man migration that takes place every year?
Secondly, poor health care killed most of them.
Luckily we've fixed that problem in America.
And I don't want it ALL planned out to the letter necessarily, though that would be ideal. However, some people don't seem to want to plan out ANYTHING or fix ANYTHING. Shouldn't we at least try and start fixing the most important issues now?
Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
Why is everyone assuming that there will always be large numbers of illegal immigrants? If that's true why don't we just forget the whole "border patrol" thing?
I believe that it is in the nation's best interest to identify everyone who comes into the country. Call me crazy, but allowing strangers into the country who may or may not want to hurt the country does not sound like the best security plan. I realize that the VAST majority of immigrants just want a better life in America, but the citizens already in the country need to look after their own interests first.
Also, tell me again why it is so beneficial to have illegal aliens working below minimum wage jobs? Those are jobs that could go to Americans who will put their earnings back into the American market, not send it to relatives next door. The loss of that revenue from being plugged into the American economy has to have a debilitating affect.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
). I say we open up the borders, with the condition that everyone who comes through looking for work checks in at the border and gets a one-year work visa. If you don't renew at the end of the year, and your status is unknown (no response from place of employment/home address), we come looking for you, and offer you a second year-long visa (or third, or fourth...).![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
)