I realize that the only hatracker that can probably read this right now is Kama, but it will be here when the rest of you guys finish.
So... I enjoyed it. But not as much as I expected I would. I'm still digesting it, but I will break down my initial thoughts here.
**** SERIOUS SPOILERS TO FOLLOW ****
First I will start with what I liked. Surprisingly, the parts of the book I absolutely loved were the parts which took place in Dorne and the Iron Islands. The chapters were fast paced, featured interesting characters, and most of all: important things were happening. Shocking things, eventful things, and things which mattered in the grand scheme of the books. I also liked Arya's chapters a lot. Too bad she only got three of them.
The problem I had with the rest of the chapters was that not much of interest was happening. Sam has always been a very sympathetic character, but his whole presence in this book was simply a journey from one interesting place (The Wall) to another interesting place (Oldtown) with absolutely nothing which really mattered to the story in between.
Then the new POV character: Brienne. Her chapters were probably the thing I like least about the book, and it felt like she got more chapters than anyone. Was there really any reason we needed to have her as a POV? It was boring to read about her quest, because we already knew where both Sansa and Arya were. So we knew that the fool she was being led to wasn't Dontos. We knew that the Hound wasn't the one who had attacked the Saltpans. We knew that the Lady Stoneheart was Cat. So nothing really got revealed. Her last chapter was tragic, of course, but I think made it even more plain that the chapters were unnecessary, considering Brienne didn't even have a larger part to play in the later books.
Which reminds me of Sansa's chapters. The only one which really made me excited was the last one, where littlefinger reveals his plan to marry her to the Heir of the Vale, and reveal her as Sansa Stark. But even that is a let-down. The climax was the revelation of a plan? Why not have her last chapter be the actual fulfillment of the plan he was talking about? (You know, something happening?)
Cersie's chapters were okay, I suppose. It was interesting to see the world from Cersie's perspective, but it got boring. Her chapters were very similar to Tyrion's in "A Clash of Kings", but instead of following a brilliant man making clever decisions, we were watching a stupid woman make terrible decisions. Not nearly as fun being in her head as it was to be in his.
Even Jaime's chapters didn't stick with me, and he was enthralling in ASOS.
I have higher hopes for the next one. No Brienne. No Cersie (most like). No Sansa (though her story was almost to the point where its interesting).
Hopefully Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, and the rest won't disappoint.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
*Avoiding looking at the thread*
Assuming that you're posting this because you acquired and read the book...
You suck. I hate you.
That is all.
*cries*
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
How did you get it?!
Posted by Ser Bronn Stone (Member # 8759) on :
New here, but have read it.
Sam's chapters were made interesting for me by the revelations made by Aemon during them. We learn an awful lot about the Targs and their history.
GRRM told us in an interview long ago, that the Brienne chapters would be VERY important. And then we read them and they don't seem to be. My guess is that she is going to do something NEXT that is so huge that he needed to establish the efforts she made to get to where she gets. As in, it would have seemeed completely bogus if she'd have just out of the blue done whatever it is she is going to do.
I think Jaime's redemption is well underway. He managed to successfully balance his duty as LCOTKG with his oath to Catelyn Stark. He made a peace between Edmure and the Freys.
It was fun for me to see Cersei choke in her own half-baked plans. The chaos that will be needed when Daenerys returns to Westeros had a wonderful advocate in her. She managed to screw up a really good thing.
I do concur that it is the weakest to date. But I also think it is a worthy heir. And that in the end, the tale would have seemed rushed and forced if we hadn't gone through those parts. It is half a book though - and I won't judge it too harshly until we've seen the other half.
In earlier books, we needed to see Arya's wandering aimlessly for a book and a half to really feel how gut wrenching it was when she came SO close to being reunited with her mother and brother. And I think that when the Brienne subplot is fully revealed, we will better understand why it was important that we follow the frustrating parts of her journey.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Ok Phil, I swear I didn't read your post (I am still only just past the prologue), but to answer mack's: amazon.uk. See Sakeriver's Popular Culture page to read the complete fiasco. Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I liked Brienne chapters.
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
I think you'll like the upcoming Jon chapters, Xavier. Cool stuff was happening at the Wall, at least, in the draft I read. The style of the action and plotting reminded me a lot of the first book (though not the events, new events.)
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
the upcoming Jon chapters in the next book, you mean Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
So now that I am done, I've been reading a lot of the threads over on the ezboard.
A couple of thoughts after reading other people's opinions:
1) My gut feeling after the prologue was that the man who killed Pate was a faceless man. I didn't consider that it may have been Jaquen himself. The board seems pretty convinced, and I'll have to read more into it.
2) Did the word that Brienne scream stop them from hanging her? I admit that when I read that chapter, I never even considered that Brienne may have survived the encounter. Its just in Martin's nature to kill off main characters, and she seemed done for. Current speculation over on ezboard is that she screamed "sword", in reference to the BWB making her choose between the sword and the noose. I must say that if she did survive and choose to go after and attempt to kill Jaime, it would make her chapters in AFFC's make a lot more sense. We the readers would need to be shown what caused such a dramatic turn-around from Jaime sending her off to find Sansa, to her trying to kill Jaime. It would make Brienne's chapters in the next book (or the one after it) much more interesting, since she would be attempting to kill the man she has clearly fallen in love with. Talk about inner conflict. It would also make her central to the main story, which is the thing which probably annoyed me most with her POV.
But that would mean that even Brienne's story was not resolved in this book. I think that's part of why I still feel unsatisfied. No one's story really concluded in a climactic way.
For example: in A Game of Thrones, Ned was captured and imprisoned, and in A Storm of Swords, Tyrion was. Both of thier trials were concluded in the book they took place in, and both of them got their story resolved in a climactic way. In AFFC, the story ended when Cersie was imprisoned. No resolution at all.
Another example: in Cat's final chapter of A Game of Thrones, Robb is declared as King in the North. Very climactic. In AFFC, Sansa's chapter concludes with Littlefinger revealing a plan to set up Sansa as ruler of the Vale (and possibly more). One had the event actually happen, one revealed that it might happen at some point. Obviously one is more satisfying than the other.
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Yes, I meant in the next book. George RR Martin and I in the same writers group, so I've read bits and pieces of both upcoming books. He also read a new chapter at last years Bubonicon (in Albuquerque). The Jon section was my personal favorite out of what I've seen, but its all good stuff.
I think it's always very likely that Martin hasn't killed all the characters that *appear* to be killed.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Just finished it. (Sort of -- I skipped re-reading the Arya, Iron Islands, and Dorne samplers that'd already appeared; now I'll go back and re-read those bits.)
Some initial thoughts... liked it a lot (a lot lot LOT), but yep, not as much going on in this one. I kinda expected that -- GRRM had talked before about how the book was originally going to jump ahead five years, only a combination of flashback/jumping ahead didn't work, and so he re-structured the book to NOT jump ahead... so I kinda figured that this one would be a setup for the next book.
I was happy to see the Arya and Sam chapters, since I hadn't expected to see them in this book... and it was nice to get that one chapter up north before Sam sets sail.
I was glad there weren't too many Sansa characters -- she's always been annoying, though less so here, maybe she'll be easier to like as she gets older.
The Dorne chapters felt a bit rushed to me somehow, so I didn't like them as much as I'd hoped, but maybe I'll like them better when I re-read it... liked getting to see Oldtown and Bravos...
I'm skeptical about whether the Hound's really dead -- I wouldn't be surprised if he's become one of those mute monks on that island. Davos's death is mentioned, but I'm figuring that that's a fake. (And, I'm wondering if the Mountain himself is quite dead, since there was a cryptic bit between Cersei and -- letsee, was is Qyburn -- about restoring a knight to the White Cloaks...)
I like it that I still don't have too much of a sense of what's going to happen -- all these random factors like the Mage and Dorne and Littlefinger and some surviving wolves are complicating things, and everyone's starting to get interested in dragons... wonder if the next book (after A Dance of Dragons) will still jump ahead 5 years...
OK, all for now, more later!
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
... and back with more!
It's kinda strange contributing so much early on to one of these threads, I usually come in to them late... anyway:
Re-reading some bits: yep, that's got to be the Hound still alive, as the gravedigger... and it sounds like the Mountain is now something like a zombie/member of the Others...
Brienne's shouting a word... I had a few fanciful thoughts, like maybe that the word she shouted was "Arya!" (since Cat might not know that Arya had survived King's Landing, and so that might get her interest). But re-reading the scene, it didn't seem as if Cat necessarily was there at the hanging...
Or: what if Brienne actually said "Noose!" -- and then they hung her anyway, but revive her because they need someone to lead them who's more freshly dead, since Cat's not a great leader having been 3 days dead before being revived, and Lord Beric stopped being as good after being revived so many times?
(edit to add more to the last paragraph, funky German keyboard I'm using made me post before I could finish.)
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
But aside from those fanciful ideas... I think it's most likely that Brienne did yell "Sword," if only to save Pod and Hyle...
A few other things I liked = the Sparrows -- interesting to see the pilgrims and how they cause the election of such a radical new High Septon. (Not a nice guy as it turns out, but that's the medieval church for you.) Even better, I liked reading about Septon Meribald and the brothers of the Quiet Isle -- nice to see some genuinely devout clergy in action (as it happens, away on the fringes -- away from the cities, with all their lords and power and corruption -- which makes sense).
Posted by Ser Bronn Stone (Member # 8759) on :
The description of the man who kills Pate in the Prologue is exactly identical to the face Jaqen assumes when he leaves Arya at Harrenhal, including the curly hair and the scar.
If it isn't Jaqen, it is a remarkable coincidence.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
:: bumped to torment Adam ::
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
I liked it, but didn’t love it. I enjoyed all the characters, but wanted a bit more to happen. I think I was used to a shock a minute!
Sansa is much improved. She has really grown up, and the best moment of the book was when Littlefinger told her his plan for her. I’ve been wanting to see some Starks back in the open.
Jamie is definitely a reforming character. Cersei was interesting. I really dislike her, but was beginning to understand her a bit more. Yes she is power mad and inept, but she grew up in a household where had she have been male she would have been encouraged and probably been taught more politics.
Brienne’s story I don’t get. I found her a good character, but don’t understand whatt he point was. If she does turn out to be alive hopefully we’ll find out. If she is dead, what was the point of those chapters?
Arya was disappointing. She has been one of my favourites from the start, but I really don’t get what she is doing. I don’t think she will complete her training without really becoming no one, then there will be no place for revenge. She must see that, so why continue while revenge is what she wants?
I also found Dorne interesting, I really though that Arianne would succeed in declaring Myrcella queen and I really wanted to read the Cersei chapter when she found out.
I can’t wait for A Dance with Dragons.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Satisfying to see Cersei get caught in some of her own tangled webs.
Who do you think Margaery was really um...having to drink the moon tea for?
Is it possible she really wasn't fooling around and there is another use for moon tea?
Jaime, Jaime, Jaime. Throwing Cersei's plea into the fire. Ah, Jaime how you've changed.
Someone is going to rue the decision Cersei made to re-instate the military order of the church. That's going to prove very significant, I think.
So what we learned from Aemon - dragons are not male or female, so the "prince that was promised" could well be a princess - Dany. What does that do to all the theories that it's Jon Snow? Nothing? Knowing Martin, it could be Jon, Dany, or someone completely different.
The prophecy given Cersei was very interesting. Refresh my memory - was she born first or was Jaime? I can't remember. And the younger, more beautiful queen - Margaery or Dany?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I skipped over all the replies in this thread, 'cause I've only had time to get a couple hundred pages so far (damn work).
But did anyone else notice that Brienne (when getting her new painted shield in Duskendale) thinks about her father's armory and the shield with the tree and falling star painted on it?
I mean, it's already been suspected that Brienne is a descendent of Ser Duncan the Tall, but this pretty much removes all doubt.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
One more thing - I could have sworn that throughout the Cersei chapters Martin was trying to convince us she was pregnant. Remember all the references to her gowns being too tight around the middle?
Whose baby? The Kettleback? Jaime?
And I wonder - does Martin just like to have a lesbian scene in every book? First Dany, now Cersei - we could hold a wager on which woman will sleep with another woman in the next book.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not a total prude I just abhor gratuitous sex and gore in books. If it reveals something about a character, or is important to the story then fine. But many times it doesn't do either one. This encounter Cersei had didn't teach us anything new about Cersei. It taught us that Cersei wished she had been born a boy and lamented that she didn't have the power and respect that a man in her place would have. It revealed that Robert was a drunken boor who never came to her bed out of love and she didn't love him. But we already knew all that. The scene told us nothing new about Cersei. I could help but feel it was just in there to titillate readers (most likely male readers, I'd imagine) and frankly, I wish it'd been left out.
[ November 10, 2005, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Cersei pregnant? Hmm, hadn't thought about that, I'd ntocied maybe one reference to Cersei complaining about tight dresses and taken it as more of her worrying about getting old and losing her beauty.
Cersei's got to survive (at least for now) -- doesn't the prophesy say that she'll see all of her children die?
Did anyone notice any possible references to Rickon? I don't have any of the GRRM books handy right now, but where was it that Rickon and Osha were headed off to -- was it the Menderly family?
Also: did any of the scenes in AFFC match the visions that Dany had in the weird house in, um, Qorth (hope I'm getting that right) back in the second book?
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: The prophecy given Cersei was very interesting. Refresh my memory - was she born first or was Jaime? I can't remember. And the younger, more beautiful queen - Margaery or Dany?
She was born first, by a minute or so.
I think the young beautiful queen isn't Margaery - I was actually thinking Sansa, but Dany might well fit the role.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
As best as I can remember, it was White Harbor that Rickon and Osha were headed to. This was the Manderly family's base of operations.
There was mention of the Manderlys, I think it was in a Cersie chapter. The small council got word that the Manderlys were holding the Onion Knight (Davos) and asked what to do with him. She (or someone else) said to kill him, and later they got reports that they had beheaded him. (how much of this am I remembering correctly?) Nobody I've talked to really thinks they killed Davos though.
quote:Who do you think Margaery was really um...having to drink the moon tea for?
That bugs me as well. I think maybe she was asking for it for a friend or family member. I seriously doubt Margaery was sleeping around.
quote: And the younger, more beautiful queen - Margaery or Dany?
I am betting its Dany. There could be another possibility though. Sansa could end up being crowned Queen of the North. Its a long-shot, but its a possibility. Also, when Littlefinger referred to the "War of Three Queens" he may have been referring to Sansa as the third queen. I personally think it was Dany he was talking about, but its something to consider.
Glad you guys are getting done.
Welcome to the spoiler thread Belle and Kettricken .
Edit: This is Xavier
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Well if Cersei was born first, then Jaime is also her younger brother and that fits - I've been thinking that Jaime would have to wind up killing her.
I didn't think of Margaery needing moon tea for someone else, but that does make sense. She really didn't strike me as the type that would be foolish enough to risk everything for a fling.
Anyone think Loras will survive?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I actually don't think he was injured at all.
I think its part of some sort of scheme developed by the Queen of Thorns. She did help arrange Joffrey's murder, after all. I think she's too smart to have allowed Margaery and Lorus to both end up in such dire circumstances. It seemed to me from their scenes together in ASOS that the Queen of Thorns kept Margaery in the loop, and Margaery and Loras were very close. Loras isn't an idiot either.
The Tyrells are playing the Game of Thrones as well, and they are much better at it than Cersie. I bet the Queen of Thrones, through Margaery, had Loras make the vow to end the siege at Dragonstone. Then after the battle they spread rumors of him being gravely injured, as an excuse to not return to Kings Landing.
Remember, at the end of AFFC, there is a Tyrell army marching towards Kings Landing. I'll bet Loras is leading the Vanguard .
(though this is just a theory, of course)
Edit:
quote:She really didn't strike me as the type that would be foolish enough to risk everything for a fling.
Actually, come to think of it (in terms of the grand Tyrell plot), I think it was all intentional. Margaery had access to the Tyrell family Maester at Kings Landing, so why would she ask Grand Maester Pyrelle for the moon tea?
The only reason I can think of would be to have the fact that Margaery was requesting moon tea leaked to Cersie, so that she would go ahead with her plan. Otherwise, Cersie could not have been sure that Margaery was not a virgin (which would have ruined Cersie's scheme if the inspection found a hymen).
I think that the woman Cersie was sleeping with (and telling all her plans to) was a Tyrell spy, reporting everything Cersie was scheming back to the Tyrells. So when Cersie was close to going through with the plan to frame Margaery as reported by the Myrish spy, they had their double agent tell Cersie about the moon tea to get her to go ahead with the plan.
The arresting of Queen Margaery gives the Tyrells an excuse to march against Kings Landing, and to get rid of Cersie as Queen Regent as well.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Xavier - you are a devious one. And your right - the Queen of Thorns is not to be underestimated.
Yes, I like your theory. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I added some more, I'd be interested in what you think of it. Thanks for the encouragement!
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I had the same thought about the woman being a spy. I think Cersei's biggest weakness is that she overestimates her ability to have a hold on people. She believes that her beauty and sexuality makes her invincible, that no one who she has introduced to her "charms" could possibly ever betray her. Witness how, despite all the nasty things she said to him, she believes Jaime will drop everything and still come to her rescue. She confided in this woman because she believed the woman was bound to her by lust and would not betray her. She was so taken aback by the knight's confession that she lost her composure and turned and ran.
Her illusions are beginning to crumble and all she's believed is now falling apart around her.
Things will not go well for sweet Cersei from here on out.
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
Interesting theory, Xavier, but it would have put Margaery at great risk. It was pointed out that highborn girls are very unlikely to have a hymen as horse riding breaks it at an early age.
I also thought the Cersie finding her cloths tight was her getting old not pregnancy, but the latter would be much more interesting. Try explaining that with a dead husband.
My biggest reason for trusting the Tyrells was that Cersie doesn’t trust them, and I don’t trust her judgement. But since no one can be trusted, Cersie would have to get it right once!
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Interesting theory, Xavier, but it would have put Margaery at great risk. It was pointed out that highborn girls are very unlikely to have a hymen as horse riding breaks it at an early age.
It is a risk, and that is probably the biggest problem with my theory.
But...
Consider how strong the case is against Margaery right now. Her one accuser has since changed his story. She probably has several witnesses that the moontea wasn't for her, and the lack of a hymen can easily be explained away.
Plus, if Loras is still in good condition, a trial by combat would be an acceptable last resort.
quote:My biggest reason for trusting the Tyrells was that Cersie doesn’t trust them, and I don’t trust her judgement. But since no one can be trusted, Cersie would have to get it right once!
I don't think there's any doubt that the Tyrells have been scheming against Cersie. The evidence that the Queen of Thrones was in on the poisoning of Joffrey is pretty solid.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
There's no question the Tyrells want to bring the Lannisters down. They also know the truth about the children, remember the Queen of Thorn's question to Sansa "Tell me about this boy who calls himself Baratheon but looks so very Lannister." They know, and I don't think they ever had any intention of Margaery remaining married to ANY Lannister - they probably mean to do away with Tommen as well. Maybe not, maybe they trust his more tractable nature and think that Margaery would be able to control him, but they definitely want Cersei out of the way. Tyrion did them a favor by removing Tywin from the picture.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
So, the big question is... do I shell out the dough for the hardcover or wait for the paperback?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Buy it now, it is worth it. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I buy books in hardcover that I know I want to keep in my permanent library, so that's why AFFC qualified for hardcover for me.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Loras being unhurt is a way interesting theory, I totally didn't think of it... one bit of support for it being that GRRM doesn't actually show us Loras's injury as it happens. (With all the other viewpoints in this book, it's hard to imagine him refraining to add in one more for Loras's hurt.) (Unless the viewpoint chapter will show up in A Dance with Dragons -- Davos might've been at the siege, and then we'd get to read an appropriately horrifying account of Loras's injury...)
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
As far as the hardcover v. paperback issue goes... I make my series match, so I won't be buying my own copy until the paperback comes out. That said, I've read the entire thing at the bookstore, and my sister's getting me an autographed hardcover copy tonight. Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Finally read the last chapter.
So - what's with Pate at the end? There's got to be a connection with the Pate who (apparently) was killed at the start.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I assume that this Pate is the faceless man who killed the real Pate at the start of the book.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I'm skeptical about whether the Hound's really dead -- I wouldn't be surprised if he's become one of those mute monks on that island. Davos's death is mentioned, but I'm figuring that that's a fake. (And, I'm wondering if the Mountain himself is quite dead, since there was a cryptic bit between Cersei and -- letsee, was is Qyburn -- about restoring a knight to the White Cloaks...)
I just assumed that the burly brother digging a grave on the island was actually the Hound, especially when Stranger was nearby. I could easily be wrong, but Martin likes to trot characters past each other like that, so I wouldn't be surprised.
As for the Mountain, I assume that Quyburn has found a way to reanimate the dead. I wonder what he's got for a head at this point?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I think the young beautiful queen isn't Margaery - I was actually thinking Sansa, but Dany might well fit the role.
It could be Sansa, but my money is on Dany.
quote:Also: did any of the scenes in AFFC match the visions that Dany had in the weird house in, um, Qorth (hope I'm getting that right) back in the second book?
Good question. I'm going to be rereading that section tomorrow or the next day. If somebody doesn't beat me to it I'll let you know what I can spot.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Quarth.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
The Hound is definately alive - he appears in Brienne's last chapter.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I don't actually own the book yet, but I'm reading it in the bookstore now for the second time and feel qualified enough to offer my opinion on that which I've read a second time.
quote:I assume that this Pate is the faceless man who killed the real Pate at the start of the book.
I think it's got to be, what with the taking of the iron key.
The three queens? I think Dany, Margaery and Sansa. I personally don't think Cersei actually qualifies, since she's no longer married to a king nor is she the only (assumed alive) heir to one.
Oh, and that "word" Brienne shouts. My guess is "Arya." Someone's got to tell Lady Catelyn.
My beefs:
What actually did happen to Rickon? Will we ever see him again?
Poor old Aemon. I really liked him. I wish he'd made it to 110.
Um... that's about all my griping. I really liked Victarion going off to "steal" Dany. And the fact that Sam has met both Bran AND Arya made me laugh out loud. I hope we get to see more of the Sand Snakes in the future. They're intriguing. And I loved Cersei being locked up and Jaime not looking like he's going to answer her summons.
I will pay more attention to mentions of preggers Cersei and the Mountain - and the Hound - being alive. Kinda. I guess my hope that those latter two would actually just die already made me skim.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I'm listening to the audio. Though the story is good, IMO the reading is just so overdone. Ugh. I prefer my scratchy cassettes to this reading where he appears to put emphasis in all the wrong places.
I've never listened to a book that was quite as annoying as this one.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Actually I'm rethinking the Cersei being pregnant idea.
I've gone back and looked over the timing and I don't think it fits. When she and Jaime met in the sept after Joffrey was killed she was in that delicate time of the month. I don't see how she could be pregnant enough for it to be affecting the fit of her clothes.
So...I'm going to say that the other theory, that it's just a sign of her fading beauty is probably more correct.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: And, I'm wondering if the Mountain himself is quite dead, since there was a cryptic bit between Cersei and -- letsee, was is Qyburn -- about restoring a knight to the White Cloaks.
It's not all that cryptic. As I understand it, Qyburn's been working on the animation of corpses.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by imogen: The Hound is definately alive - he appears in Brienne's last chapter.
Are you sure? What role does he play?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
that's not Sandor.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Right, it's just his helmet.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Isn't it Lem? Or did I misread that?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I believe it was. The helmet went from Sandor's carin to Rorge to Lem, I believe.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It was Lem, wearing the helmet he had taken. They talk about how it was bad luck for Lem to wear it, considering the two who had it before him, but Lem doesn't care, and keeps it.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Huh. But I thought the character is described in that chapter as "the Hound".
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
In fact, I know it is.
Now I'm confused.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
It is called, "The Hound" from Brienne's point of view. It isn't really the hound though. She sees the helmet and is dazed from her fight, that's all. Just old Lem.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Then they talk about it being Lem, and how he got the helmet.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
I agree with a number of the theories here.
I think Sandor is still alive on the Island. Jaime is probably the volanqur that will kill Cersei. Dany has to be the younger, more beautiful queen.
I hadn't thought of Loras being unhurt, but that is a good theory. Wasn't it Waters who came back to report the injury to Cersei? The same Waters who later stole the new royal fleet? Hmmm.
What is Jaquen (assuming he is now Pate) up to? I can't quite figure it out.
Time for my crackpot theory. I think Merryweather (aka Cersei's new bed buddy) is the missing sand snake, referred to in the Captain of the Guards chapter. Anyone? I see no reason why she couldn't be, and Merryweather is definitely playing some sort of twisted game, one that seems to be very detrimental to Cersei, which is exactly what a sand snake would want. Maybe, maybe not, but I like it.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Ah. My bad.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
*bump*
Any more folks done with it? Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Jaime is probably the volanqur that will kill Cersei.
You're probably right. But I'd love to see it be Rickon. Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Time for my crackpot theory. I think Merryweather (aka Cersei's new bed buddy) is the missing sand snake, referred to in the Captain of the Guards chapter. Anyone? I see no reason why she couldn't be, and Merryweather is definitely playing some sort of twisted game, one that seems to be very detrimental to Cersei, which is exactly what a sand snake would want. Maybe, maybe not, but I like it.
Personally, I think Sarella (the "missing" Sand Snake) is Alleras, the Sphinx of the Citadel.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If there's anything I've learned from the media, by the way, it's that you should never pick a false name that's just your real name written backwards.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Did you say something, Mot?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
mosdivaD moT, you mean.... Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The sad thing is that Mot Nosdivad sounds like a Star Wars character.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I noticed that about my name backwards as well: Llessur Nohud
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
If I used Belle and my last name I'd be Elleb Draw.
With my real first name I'm Nairda Draw.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Negomi Srednuas
Sounds like a mouse's name.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
trebor llirb
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
Assilem Deer
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I'm quite sad about the state of my poor thread .
Anyone have anything interesting to add about the book?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
What's up with Littlefinger's plan? I mean, is he really planning on wedding Sansa to Robert's heir, or is there something else? I assumed Littlefinger wanted Sansa for himself, because she looks so much like Cat.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I expect that he's planning on wedding Sansa to Robert's heir, then arranging for the death of that heir. Or perhaps -- as revenge -- simply impregnating her, making sure that his child winds up on the Iron Throne.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
OK, so, again, Dany's visions that she had in Quarth -- anyone recognize anything in AFFC that might match? (I reread the scene, but didn't notice anything myself...)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
No, but I should re-read it to make sure.
The entire series, I mean. Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
quote: Time for my crackpot theory. I think Merryweather (aka Cersei's new bed buddy) is the missing sand snake, referred to in the Captain of the Guards chapter. Anyone? I see no reason why she couldn't be, and Merryweather is definitely playing some sort of twisted game, one that seems to be very detrimental to Cersei, which is exactly what a sand snake would want. Maybe, maybe not, but I like it.
But isn't Lady Merryweather Myrish and not Dornish?
quote: As for the Mountain, I assume that Quyburn has found a way to reanimate the dead. I wonder what he's got for a head at this point?
Actually, it was my understanding that the head sent to Dorne was that of the former High Septon that Cersei had killed, not the Mountain.
Speaking of which, it really ticks me off that both the Mountain and the Hound are still around. I hated both those characters and was quite happy at the end of ASOS when it looked like their respective time had come.
All in all, the book was, okay. Like other people mentioned, not that much actually happened. It seemed like GRRM could have easily covered the entire book in about five pages of flashbacks. Heck, cutting out gratuitous wanderings and sex alone would have reduced the book by about 2/3. I guess a lot of it just felt like padding to me, and what's even worse, unresolved padding.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
My books have gone to Antartica with Tony, so I can't help.
Not that I actually helped in the beginning.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I loved it. However, I'm still not qualified to offer any good opinions on plot as I read it in a new-mother-no-sleep fog. I will say, though, that Jamie surprised me at the end. I think my favorite part was when he said near the middle of the book that Brienne was to be referred to by her name, after calling her "wench" all through the last book.
space opera
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think it advanced a LOT of things, and set things up so a wonderful confrontation between Brianne and Jamie in a future book.
I liked it a lot. Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:But isn't Lady Merryweather Myrish and not Dornish?
She could take after her mother, who could easily be Myrish. Oberyn went just about everywhere... I wouldn't be surprised if he had a daughter by a Summer Islander, and I'm sure she wouldn't look very Dornish.
That said, Alleras is another intriguing idea.
I could do without the Mountain... although an invulnerable mindless Zombie Mountain would be pretty interesting. But Sandor Clegane is quite possibly the most interesting character in any of the books, and I would be really happy if he turned out to not be dead.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I just finished -- whew. I read that fast.
I found myself skimming a lot (a bad habit i have) but i definitely was bored with the entire Iron Islands plot. Except the initial Drowning Men chapter. I just didn't care that much about characters that feel, to me, like they're being squeezed in at the end of the series.
But then, i don't actually know that Dance of Dragons is the last book...? is it, or is this going to be a long series?
Anyhow, i have to say I loved the Brienne chapters. I didn't really care much that nothing important happened. I just think she's such a cool lady.
Also, and i'm embarassed to admit this, but i definitely thought the man who had been posing as the Hound was Tyrion initially. Tyrion! I was so confused when Brienne made the comment about him losing his nose, i was so sure the only character it could be was him. And i was thinking i couldn't believe he'd gone so far off the deep end....and then they called him Rorge. *blushes*
There's no way Sansa is ever going to rule -- i think either she'll be killed later and Arya will be queen, or as is most likely, Dany will be. I don't understand why Arya didn't ask Samwell about Jon -- she knew he was from the Watch, wouldn't she want to hear news?
I really missed Tyrion. He's the only character whose viewpoint i really get into. He always seems to know exactly what's going on -- he's not innocent or ignorant or just plain mean. He's always seemingly completely in control of what goes on around him.
i enjoyed the book, but not as much as the others. I'll have to re-read the whole series now!
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
There are three more books to go.
Posted by Ser Bronn Stone (Member # 8759) on :
I attended three signings and one dinner with George when he was in the Bay Area. He plans to make it three more books, but is NOT committing to that firmly. If it is more, it is more.
I believe that Arya is TRYING to forget being of House Stark and trying to become nobody or Cat of the Canals or whoever.
I also believe I recall a mention of Sarella being in Oldtown, which is where Alleras is. I don't think there is any doubt there.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Anyone know if GRRM is still planning on doing a 5-year jump ahead in the series?
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
He's not.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Thoughts so far:
quote:What is Jaquen (assuming he is now Pate) up to? I can't quite figure it out.
Didn't Tyrion hire the faceless men to kill Dany? Now the maesters are after Dany too. Seems convenient. *************************** I liked the Brienne chapters because I thought that they were the only ones that really gave us a feel for what was happening in the rest of Westeros. From her chapters, I got the idea that the small folk wouldn't follow a lion or a wolf. It makes me think that Dany would have plenty of public support from the people of Westeros.
I did wonder where the dream Brienne shared with Jaime would come into play. *************************** Interesting that the One-Eyed Crow has the means to defeat Dany's dragons.
It seems obvious that some time must elapse between this and the last book. I think that Bran, Rickon and the Dragons have to have a chance to mature, because I expect that they will have a crucial role in defeating the Winter. I'm interested to see how GRRM will create an environment stable enough to last 5 years or so. *************************** Nimeria seems to be kicking booty. I wonder if the remaining dire wolves will team-up again. And I wonder if Arya will begin to see through Nimeria's eyes while she's awake.
I don't see Sansa surviving because her wolf is dead. I agree that Little Finger will kill the heir to the Vale and marry Sansa after he's announced Sansa as a Stark. He only called her daughter to keep her close while his plans ripened. *************************** Lady Merryweather has got to be a Tyrell spy. I think that she refused to bring her son to court in order to keep him from becoming anyone's pawn. *************************** I don't think that Sandor is still alive because I don't think that he'd let his horse be gelded if he had any say over it. I also think that the Mountain is dead (didn't Cersie tell Quyban that she didn't want to hear him anymore?) *************************** Sam is growing-up. He's finally got a real dilemma on his hands: love or honor? I liked Sam's chapters because they gave us more insight into the Targs and introduced us to the Summer Islanders, who I think will be important in the following books. (Summer vs Winter and all ) *************************** I like X's theory for the most part. I'm not sure about Cersie being preggers, unless her pregnancy allows her to not be killed. My first thought was that she was drinking too much, not exercising, getting fat and losing her beauty. Her beauty was her only real power. Being ugly would surely torture her shallow self. ***************************
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I didn't quite get the significance of Jaime's mother's visit. (Not being able to easily bookmark a section and not knowing spellings are my only gripes with audio books vs books).
Can someone remind me why the visit was important?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You mean his aunt? It let us see a scheming Lannister who isn't entirely unlikeable, and set up that whole cliffhanger about his parentage.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I don't think it's his aunt. I'm talkng about the scene with the beautiful woman that "he knew he should know". He asks if it's a dream and she says, in your dreams you always have two hands. Then he sees that he only has one hand.
I thought the woman was his mother.
Do you think the woman was his aunt in her younger days?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ah. No. I didn't know which scene you meant.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Personally given the path Arya is taking, I think she'll be turning all other schemes and plots and prophecies arse over teakettle when she finally builds up some steam.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:It let us see a scheming Lannister who isn't entirely unlikeable, and set up that whole cliffhanger about his parentage.
About Jamie's parentage? I'm not recalling anything bringing his parentage into question. I'd been planning on rereading AFFC anyway, but it would seem that I missed something fairly major if this was brought up and I missed it. So, to sate my immediate curiosity, what's the story with Jamie's parentage?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
::borrowed a book::
The scene I was talking about is on pages 669-670.
It doesn't actually say that the woman is beautiful, but Jaime mistakes her for Cersei. The woman talks about unfulfilled dreams. She cries at the thought of Tywin's dreams of a son and daughter so "strong and brave and beautiful" that no one would laugh at them.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
One of my favorite parts of the book was when Jaime's aunt tells him that he is not Tywin's son, Tyrion is.
But then again, I just love Tyrion. I could be biased.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I certainly agree with that. I've thought many times while reading Tyrion's chapters, "If only he were a Stark!" I can't see Eddard or Catelyn Stark having stuck it to Tyrion so many times, engendering that much hatred.
Also with Tyrion's cleverness, maybe just maybe most of the Starks wouldn't be dead.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So. The burning question that nobody has asked yet: Is a Brienne and Jaime hookup going to happen?
Also, I cannot wait to see how Qyburn unleashes The Zombie That Rides. That would kick ass if Cersei made him part of the Kingsguard because she had no other viable champion to keep her alive. Heh. Just imagine, the perfect Kingsguard. Toally chaste and totally devoted to protecting the king or queen.
Another question I have is why Tywin mortified and stunk so much at the funeral? They kind of hinted in one of the Arya/Cat chapters that a poison could cause that kind of mortification, but it's pretty clear that Tywin died from a crossbow bolt. Thoughts?
I'm glad to see that Sansa is finally growing some spine.
All in all, I loved AFFC. I didn't have any problems with it, really. Can't wait for the next installment.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think it was just to show the mortality of everyone, and how low even the highest can fall.
I like Sansa, and I think she will impact things a lot, even if she dies to make it happen. No one but her really knows what Peter has done, and even she might not know all of it, but she is going to grow into more than his equal in the game of thrones, I think. Remember, the wolves are there to help them, but human endeavors are what will (or will not) save them. Sansa may not have her wolf, but in her world, one of poisonings and backstabbing politics, how well would a wolf really helped her? It would have made it IMPOSSIBLE for her to be disguised, really.
If she takes Littlefinger out (or neutralizes him somehow) she would be helping everyones cause, even if they didn't know the true extent of how much he had already done. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I am excited that Sansa is being tutored by Peter on how to be devious.
You think taking *Littlefinger* out would be helping everyone's cause? Why? As far as I can tell, he's one of the stabilizing forces in the kingdom. I kind of have him situated in the 'good' camp, inasmuch as anyone in that series is one thing or another. I think if Littlefinger sat the Iron Throne, Westeros would prosper hugely. In fact, I can't think of a better king out of the current crop of characters in the world.
On an unrelated note, I wonder if they're ever going to reunite Arya and her wolf? The wolf is like this huge dangling plot thread that's been running around for almost four books now. I'm going to be pissed if GRRM just kills her wolf off parenthetically.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
He killed Robert, arranged for Ned to be betrayed and killed, and killed Lysa.
Not a good guy, and most of the bad things that have happened to the kingdom have been his fault...either for participating in them, instagating them, or in faling to act aganst them.
Not a good guy, and he would be a horrible King, IMO.
Worse than Robert ever was, although the kingdom would have a bit more coin.... Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: He killed Robert,
I thought that was pretty much all Cersei.
quote: arranged for Ned to be betrayed and killed,
He tried to warn Ned and get him to play the game correctly, but did that stiff-necked Stark listen? Oooooh, no.
quote: and killed Lysa.
She needed killing. You don't think that things are going to be much better in the Vale with her gone?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Good night. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ahhh...Littlefinger "assisted" Cersei along with that too...perhaps even instagated it.
He has been pulling the strings of everyone from before the beginning of the first book. I can't wait to see Sansa turn the tables on him. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Littlefinger would make an excellent Hand I think, or power behind the throne...but real king? No, because he cannot stand alone. He must always coopt someone else to elevate.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The man is completely devoid of anything but a desire for personal power. In this, he's easily as evil as Cersei -- and has the added "villain" factor of being competent. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I agree with Tom. There are more obviously evil people in the realm, but Littlefinger is pretty much a sociopath.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well he might not be devoid of everything except ambition. He's got some kind of weird thing going for Sansa, and we don't really know what it is-but it certainly appears to be more than friendly helpfulness. There are signs of him assigning Sansa the love he had for Catelyn. Although I think he'd side with himself and his ambition over that, we can't be sure.
I'd be interested to see if Littlefinger actually knows that it was Lysa and not Catelyn who visited him that night he was plastered, too.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You guys are weird. All the other candidates for the Iron Throne who actually want the power have killed ten times more people than Littlefinger or have done it without regard to consequences. Consider that when Littlefinger was treasurer, the kingdom prospered. People were elevated to positions, yes, based on their loyalty to Littlefinger, but also without regard to birth and with an eye to them being able to do their job.
Contrast this to those seeking power. The best of that lot might be said to be Danaerys, but she's worse than Littlefinger. She has killed far more people than he has, and will kill far more in the future, just to sit the throne. No one calls her evil. Plus, she's a barbarian who doesn't understand how to run a kingdom.
The Song of Ice and Fire series makes it very clear that either you're a player or you get run over. It makes it pretty clear that to not play the game of thrones, fight for what you want is the worse thing you can do. In this sense, the 'good' people who aren't actually seeking the throne are totally unqualified for it. That's basically all the Starks.
If Littlefinger gets the Iron Throne, what will happen? Will he kill people in fits of rage or unnecessariy? No. Will he lead the kingdome into unnecessary wars? No. Will he keep the peace? Yes. Will the kingdom prosper? Yes.
Littlefinger for king. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Storm Saxon,
Wow, I feel like I've read a totally different story!
Petyr Baelish's time as treasurer wasn't time served primarily in service to the realm, it was a sop thrown to him by Hoster Tully to please Lysa Tully, whom Petyr was bedding primarily because he wanted to get in good with Catelyn Tully.
When he was treasurer, yes, the job was done, but by all accounts he did it with a borrow-and-spend philosophy to rival anything our American politicians could dream of. The system only worked as long as he, Petry Baelish, managed the enormous corruption.
He made himself absolutely indispensible. Also, Petry Baelish has killed or been accomplice to the murders of many-even the loved ones of those he claims to love. And I think it's very strange that you have Littlefinger in one column and "those seeking power" in another column. Ambition for power is the guiding star in Littlefinger's heavens. I cannot recall him once mentioning in his dialogue ever caring about power for the good of the people.
He executes power craftily because that is the way to keep power, not because of some inherent nobility.
As for Daenaerys (I can never spell that name unless I'm looking at it), who has been killed at her command, and not Khal Drogo's? Umm...slavers. Lots and lots of slavers. She is certainly no barbarian, she is literate and well-educated. She has enormous ambition as well, but for her there are lines she won't cross. She doesn't play a crooked game like Petry Baelish. She didn't murder her spouse in cold blood for power. And while she means to have power, she's making an effort to exercise it gracefully.
The Starks-with the exception of Arya-are unqualified for the Iron Throne just because of the other players on the field, I agree.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Petyr Baelish's time as treasurer wasn't time served primarily in service to the realm, it was a sop thrown to him by Hoster Tully to please Lysa Tully, whom Petyr was bedding primarily because he wanted to get in good with Catelyn Tully.
Yeah, I never said he did it for the realm.
quote: When he was treasurer, yes, the job was done, but by all accounts he did it with a borrow-and-spend philosophy to rival anything our American politicians could dream of. The system only worked as long as he, Petry Baelish, managed the enormous corruption.
No, all the spending was done by Robert. He made the money, everyone else spent it.
quote: He made himself absolutely indispensible. Also, Petry Baelish has killed or been accomplice to the murders of many-even the loved ones of those he claims to love. And I think it's very strange that you have Littlefinger in one column and "those seeking power" in another column. Ambition for power is the guiding star in Littlefinger's heavens. I cannot recall him once mentioning in his dialogue ever caring about power for the good of the people.
Sorry I miscommunicated. I absolutely have him in the column of those seeking power.
quote: He executes power craftily because that is the way to keep power, not because of some inherent nobility.
Yep. Never said he was noble. That's why he's a winner in the realm. All your noble people are dead.
quote: As for Daenaerys (I can never spell that name unless I'm looking at it), who has been killed at her command, and not Khal Drogo's? Umm...slavers. Lots and lots of slavers. She is certainly no barbarian, she is literate and well-educated. She has enormous ambition as well, but for her there are lines she won't cross. She doesn't play a crooked game like Petry Baelish. She didn't murder her spouse in cold blood for power. And while she means to have power, she's making an effort to exercise it gracefully.
Everything she's doing, she does to rise in power and eventually rule the Kingdoms. She isn't doing it just to be nice. She has no qualms about killing those who stand in her way if it needs to be done...just like Peter.
I still stand by my assertion that Lyssa needed killing and that Littlefinger did a service to the realm by pushing her out the door. Yeah, he did it for himself, but who doesn't in that book?
One of the points the book makes clear is that things kind of are the way they are because that's the way they are. Slaves exist in the whole world, sometimes by necessity, sometimes not. If you remember, her beloved spouse was pretty active in making slaves.
While she didn't murder her spouse for power, I think it's worth asking whether maybe if she had the world wouldn't have been a better place. If you leave someone evil alive--which Drogo pretty much was--then what does that make you?
Let's compare the good deed of killing slavers to the 'bad' deed of killing Lysa. Peter kills Lysa who rules incompetently and gets others killed or lets them die because she's incompetent. What is going to be put in Lysa's place? Is it going to be someone better? Seeing as that is going to probably be Sansa Stark, I think so.
What would have been the fate of Sansa and Robert and the Vale if Lysa had been left alive? Nothing good.
The Vale is going to be better and more secure after Peter is done.
Now, contrast this with Dany and her killing of the slavers. The book makes it pretty clear that hardly anything was accomplished by deposing the slavers. What did she really accomplish? Not much.
Dany, while certainly not stupid, has no knowledge of how to rule efficiently and well, as Peter does.
It's easy to like characters once we see the world from their eyes. That's the genius of GRRM. The sad fact is that we haven't seen the world through Peter's eyes, yet. So, it's easy to think of him as being totally ambitious and without remorse. However, I think the book offers plenty of evidence that while he's ambitious, he's not without remorse, that he knows how to use power well, knows his limits, and thus would make a good king.
quote:
The Starks-with the exception of Arya-are unqualified for the Iron Throne just because of the other players on the field, I agree.
I think Sansa, in time, will be well qualified. She's learning from Peter, after all. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: So. The burning question that nobody has asked yet: Is a Brienne and Jaime hookup going to happen?
I sure hope so, even though Brienne's fate is in 'cliff hanger' mode.
While it could get tedious at times, I really enjoyed watching Cersei ever so smugly hang herself. It was like watching someone boast how great they are in Chess, preening while they expose their king with each pawn of the opponents they take. It was delightful.
I really missed Tyrion, too. I'm pretty sure I'm in love with him and, were I not already married, he would ruin me for every other man.
I'm getting extremely itchy for Bran chapters. This is the second book in a row where we've had no peep. But I am patient, Martin. I am patient.
I really like Petyr's character. It was a nice reprieve to see brief moments of his plotting in contrast with Cersei's.
This was the first book I didn't roll my eyes every time I saw a Sansa chapter approach.
I'm also curious about the significance of the 'visit' from what I took to be Jaime's mother.
While it's probably my least favorite of the four books so far, it was still an extremely good book. It's hard to follow ASOS. I did throw the book across the room twice. That's a good sign.
Tom - Call me thicky, but how would Rickon be the valonquor? The valonquor just has to be SOMEBODY's little brother, not specifically Cersei's?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The valonquor just has to be SOMEBODY's little brother, not specifically Cersei's?
The text of the prophecy, as it was quoted to us, was that she would be killed by the valonquor, which translates as "little brother." Nowhere does it specify that her little brother is going to do it.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Unless GRRM is still going ahead with a 5-year jump in the series, it seems kinda unlikely for Rickon to be able to pull off Cersei's death. (But, hey, with GRRM, you never know... and OSC had Ender killing Stilson when Ender was, what, 5? 6?)
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:The valonquor just has to be SOMEBODY's little brother, not specifically Cersei's?
The text of the prophecy, as it was quoted to us, was that she would be killed by the valonquor, which translates as "little brother." Nowhere does it specify that her little brother is going to do it.
That would be cool. Of course, it would mean that Martin has to start writing about Bran and Rickon again, which I'm increasingly dubious he will do.
(When I say I'm 'patient' I actually mean I'm seething with angst. And anger. And this guy: )
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Wow, the grammar in my last post is really bad, even for me. I apologize for that and the mispelling of names.
Rickon and Shaggy wolf are another one of those huge, dangling plot threads that it will be interesting to see how Martin resolves.
As far as the whole Tyrion is the true son bit, I honestly didn't read that literally when Aunt Whatsername said it. I took it to mean that Tyrion is the smart and clever one, in the vein of Tywin, while Jaime was the guy who isn't. Also, if Jaime isn't Tywin's son, then Cersei isn't Tywin's daughter. *Tywin* raising two bastards in his own household? I just can't see it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I agree. It never even occur to me that that might have been meant literally. I'm questioning my assumption now, but I'd still put money on the lot of them being Tywin's biological children.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Re: volanquar. "Little brother" is just another word for "younger brother". Jaime is her younger brother, isn't he? That's how I read the prophecy.
Cersei is so stupid that she fixates only on the most obvious of threats. The queen that will take things from her simply must be Margary, even though there are like half a dozen other women who could eventually be a queen. Tyrion must be the "little brother", even though she's got another little brother who she's infuriated and repeatedly betrayed.
I read the wording the same way as you did, Storm. Of the three of them, Tyrion is far and away the only one who has a mindset like Tywin.
-------
Petry Baelish didn't do it for the realm, which is why he would be a poor king. He doesn't even care about ruling well for its own sake. He cares about ruling well enough to maintain power. That's why he would be a bad king, even at the same time he was effective.
quote:[No, all the spending was done by Robert. He made the money, everyone else spent it.
But it was Petry who came up with the "borrow" part. Rather than saying, "Look, Rob, we ain't got the money," he never said anything, and helped spend the realm into bankruptcy. And now they're in trouble with the Iron Bank as well as a host of other people, who will be putting the squeeze on them bigtime. It was the fault of Robert AND Petyr.
quote:Yep. Never said he was noble. That's why he's a winner in the realm. All your noble people are dead.
Not all of them:)
quote:Everything she's doing, she does to rise in power and eventually rule the Kingdoms. She isn't doing it just to be nice. She has no qualms about killing those who stand in her way if it needs to be done...just like Peter.
On the contrary. Yes, her first motivation is power, that motive is due to her upbringing. But she doesn't kill who gets in her way. Quite the contrary, she goes out of her way to be merciful to the defenseless when doing so costs her something.
She exhibits mercy and restraint and nobility even when it costs her something. She is willing to make sacrifices for her people. She starves with them and suffers with them and goes into exile with them, and frees slaves and gives orders to protect the helpless. Petyr on the other hand sacrifices his people for his own ambition, and would not think of sacrificing anything of his own for their sake, unless it furthered his own ambition.
quote:One of the points the book makes clear is that things kind of are the way they are because that's the way they are. Slaves exist in the whole world, sometimes by necessity, sometimes not. If you remember, her beloved spouse was pretty active in making slaves.
Yes, and Dany frees slaves where all other people say it's "necessity". Yes, her beloved spouse made many slaves, as well as widows and orphans. But she didn't really have any control over that at all. The tiny bit she did have, she used for mercy and restraint. Despite alienating her from the people and partially from her husband.
quote:While she didn't murder her spouse for power, I think it's worth asking whether maybe if she had the world wouldn't have been a better place. If you leave someone evil alive--which Drogo pretty much was--then what does that make you?
If you're going to tout Littlefinger's virtues in spite of his obvious evil-he murders people, breaks oaths, betrays people he professes to love, for ambition-then you can hardly label Khal Drogo evil as cut-and-dried as that. He was what he was raised to be, a conqueror, and under his leadership, his people thrived.
quote:Now, contrast this with Dany and her killing of the slavers. The book makes it pretty clear that hardly anything was accomplished by deposing the slavers. What did she really accomplish? Not much.
On the contrary, it accomplishes enormous things. Instantly, she makes vastly loyal followers, who would die, kill, live, and suffer for her. Who owes Petry that level of devotion? Not a soul, not even Sansa Stark.
quote:Dany, while certainly not stupid, has no knowledge of how to rule efficiently and well, as Peter does.
Well like I said, Dany is just getting started. And she even recognized her own inadequacy, and instead of marching on, she has stopped moving to govern and learn how to rule, because she knows that she cannot simply be a conqueror. And what motivated that decision? Ambition partially-she is clever enough to realize that conquerors alone do not stay in power, and she wants to stay-but also mercy. She does not want to spread suffering and misery, she wants to minimize it.
Petry doesn't seem to care. Thus far there has been no sacred thing Petry would not violate for the sake of his ambition. Granted, we haven't seen the world through his eyes yet, so the final word isn't said...but I challenge you to find one place where he exhibits anything other than naked utilitarianism. Dany would make a better ruler, because she has all of the attributes you show Petry having, as well as loyalty to those who are loyal to her. It appears to me that she is struggling to become Sacrifice to her people (a la the Assassin's Apprenctice books and its sequels, if you've read them. Or Mikal in Songbird).
I like Petry, I like reading about him, and no one can doubt that he would make an effective king. But ASoI&F isn't just a world of Machiavellian politics. It's also a world of deities and magic. In that world, eventually the kingdom will need more than pure utilitarianism. Can you see Petry sacrificing himself to save the realm from the Others, for example? I certainly cannot.
Howdy Ralphie! Totally agree about Sansa. My eyes spent most of their time rolled up when Sansa was "onscreen" before.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Totally agree with everything you said, Rakeesh. I also didn't think of Khal Drogo as evil. Yes, a conqueror, yes a brutal leader, but that was the culture and it was the only way to survive in his world. Notice that when Dany took control she changed things. No longer did she simply take on more slaves everywhere she went. she tried to leave the conquered cities behind with a council to govern them, remember?
Dany for queen. She's not perfect, but she has wisdom and compassion, yet the ability to be ruthless when she has to. The most revealing chapter about her as a queen is the extra one, the one where she is holding court and addressing grievances - she shows her wisdom, restraint, and her sense of honor.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: ...he exhibits anything other than naked utilitarianism.
I have to go to work, and enjoyed reading your response, Rakeesh, but I just wanted to point out that this probably doesn't mean what you think it means. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't know, Storm. It's possible I'm misunderstanding you, but your idea looks to me that: the realm would prosper under Littlefinger, thus Littlefinger would be a good king. Isn't that determining a person's worthiness or an action's morality based on its effectiveness? (If you're using the second definition as your guiding light, then I probably would agree with you.)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
There is a problem with Dany, though: the taint of generations of incest.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I have to say that I am quite pleased with the state of my thread now .
Awesome discussion guys.
I, of course, totally agree with Rakeesh. But I love, love, love the fact that every major character in ASOIAF has his or her supporters and detractors.
I don't think anyone writes gray characters as well as Martin. In most books, Littlefinger would be undeniably "evil" and Dany undeniably "good", and so none of these debates could ever take place. But there isn't a character in the series that has been put in a box like that .
I will say that the Starks would be great kings. But NOT of the south. The Iron Throne was really never their goal. I think Robb's biggest mistake was in having Riverrun and the Tullys join his new kingdom.
If he had just kept his claim to that of the North, then he could have set up shop at Moat Cailin and declared independence (by messenger raven) to every lord in the Seven Kingdoms. That way, none of the kings in the south could have possibly contested the claim. Not until they claimed the Iron Throne anyway.
So say Robb is waiting at the biggest death-trap in the seven kingdoms. That leaves Lannister and Baratheon fighting it out down south. If Greyjoy had attacked the north, they would have easily been defeated, since Robb could just have left a portion of his army at the Moat, and dealt with the Ironborn at Seaguard with the Mallisters. The North was already marshaled for war, and the Ironborn wouldn't have had any chance with them all above the neck. I don't think the Greyjoys would have even tried, they are ambitious, not stupid.
Robb could have waited to see who won the south, and then dealt with whoever came to invade the north at the neck, where no army had ever successfully invaded from the south in 8000 years. But what of the Tullys at Riverrun? I think they could have told Stannis "If you accept the Wolf Kings claim, we will help you win the Iron Throne." If Stannis refused, they could say the exact same thing to the Lannisters.
They'd keep their hold on the river lands, and whoever won the Iron Throne would be in their debt. Why do they want to be part of the Northern Kingdom anyway?
Then if the winner of the south decided to go after the Starks anyway, the Tullys could wait in their castle for the army to march by (we've seen how difficult a castle it is to besiege) and then maybe even attack them in the rear when they get to Moat Cailin.
But alas, Robb had to accept the River-lands as part of his kingdom, out of political and familial obligations. He got trapped south of the neck, and lost everything.
Poor, poor Robb...
Anyway, if they did this plan, I believe Robb would still be King of the North. And I think he would have been a fine king. I think Ned would have been an excellent king as well.
But only of the North. They know the lands, the people, the politics, the values. And the lords of the north see the Starks as being the rightful rulers of those lands, far more than any southern king whose never even been to their lands. Except for the Boltons of course, but they would have been kept in line by a powerful king at Winterfell.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
As you said, Robb Stark had to go south out of various obligations, political and familial...but also because his people lusted for revenge. Eddard Stark was a respected and loved Lord of Winterfell, and his people were pissed. Not to mention that had he cut Riverrun off, eventually it would be Winterfell against basically the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, and the Greyjoys. He could not have won against such odds...but who's to say he would've faced such odds, with Cersei at the helm?
Then again, had Robb not ruined his chances by marrying Jeyne, perhaps Tywin would not have felt so free to humiliate and infuriate Tyrion so frequently. There would've been work for Tyrion to do aside from get crapped on by everybody whose butts he'd saved.
That's the trouble with honorable kings: sometimes they lose everything by honor. I imagine that if Rob Roy were ever based on a true story, the fop would've ambushed Rob Roy and murdered him before their duel ever happened.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It was......sorta. Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I disagree with Stormy about Petyr, but I do agree about Lysa. I definitely cheered out loud when she went flying. Good riddance.
I want to see Jon Snow be king. Yes, yes, he's bastard born. I don't care. Of all the players, I think he's got the best and most noble leadership potential. If he hooks up with Dany, I'll be ok with that (though Dany is not my favorite character--not because I disagree with what she's doing, but because I don't like reading her thought processes. They always seem very stilted and...what...uninformed, even when it's obvious from the content that they're not.).
And, I miss Tyrion. To me, he's absolutely the most interesting character (though Arya is a close, close second).
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I want to see Jon Snow be king. Yes, yes, he's bastard born. I don't care.
We don't know that for sure. Lyanna and Rhaegar could have gotten married. The Targaryens did practice polygamy.
And even if R+L=J isn't true, Robb gave indication that he would legitimize Jon and make him the heir to the North before he died. Whether he did or not is another matter.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
ASoI&F is the sort of world where it doesn't really matter that he's base-born...if he wins.
Really, Martin does an exceptional job of that. All of these "royal rights" descend from the right of conquest, and you cannot ever really forget it. The Children of the Forest had rights at first, until they were conquered. Then the First Men had rights until they were conquered (by the Andals? I forget.) Then they had the right until they were conquered by Dragon-kings. Then they had the right until conquered by Barratheons. And so on and so on.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't think Jon will be king at all. I think he will be the LC resposible for restoring th Night's Watch to some of it's former glory. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So you don't see Jon and Dany ending up together, eh?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I didn't say that. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Maybe Dany and Littlefinger will get together. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"So... I enjoyed it. But not as much as I expected I would."
Just finished, and this sums it up for me, sadly.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I really liked it, although I missed the characters who were missing.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
And I just missed characters that I cared about.
They seemed flat.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:A DANCE WITH DRAGONS will feature all the characters that you (and I) missed in A FEAST FOR CROWS. Jon, Tyrion, Davos, Dany, and Bran will all be present with major storylines, and toward the end of the novel Arya will appear as well, as will Asha Greyjoy. There will also be one new viewpoint character debuting and one old returning, giving me a total of nine POVs, plus the usual prologue.
The greater part of DANCE will take place at the same time as the events chronicled in FEAST... but though the two novels will run in parallel, there's nothing to prevent one parallel line from extending beyond its fellow, and the DANCE should indeed take the action beyond the end of FEAST. Just how far beyond remains to be seen, and will depend in large part on the page count when the new volume reaches the point where the last one ended. IF (and only if) I have the room, it is possible that I may drop in on a few more of the protagonists of FEAST towards the end of DANCE.
As of this writing, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS consists of some twenty-two finished chapters totalling 542 manuscript pages, plus another 100 to 150 pages of partial chapters, early drafts, scenes, and fragments. Some of that material will need to be revised, and of course much more remains to be written. My hope is to bring the book in at around 1200 to 1300 pages.
And before anyone writes me asking, yes, there is a third Dunk and Egg novella in the works as well. It's maybe three-quarters done, and sometime soon I want to find the time to finish that one too.
Anyway, that's how things stand at the end of January. I will try and update again around the beginning of April.
—George R.R. Martin, January 24, 2006
Yay for news! ... though it sounds like it's gonna be bigger than AFFC, so maybe we'll have to wait until 2007 for ADWD...
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I am *so* psyched for ADWD.
Oh, and Littlefinger is a stinker. I suspect we will find by the end that he has had far more power over events than any of us has suspected. I imagine him being like a giant, shadowy puppetmaster hiding behind the scenes and disguised in a short, slight, wry-expressioned body.
I *hated* being in Cersei's head. Ugh. What an ugly, ugly woman. I wanted to take a shower after each of her chapters. Brienne, on the other hand, is such a beautiful woman. I would love to be in her head any day. Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
The only really slow parts to me were the Dorne chapters, which I thought were nearly pointless. As far as I'm concerned, we didn't need the new viewpoint characters there, and we could just as well have learned about those events through dialogue between other, more important (and more interesting) characters in other locations.
I thought the Iron Islanders' chapters were pretty good, as were the Sansa parts (I think the Eyrie is a really cool place). The Lannister twins were both really good, even though Cersei is both vile and stupid. My favorites were Sam and (especially) Brienne. They also happen to be two of my favorite characters, but that really doesn't have that much to do with how well their chapters are written. It's just a fortunate coincidence.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Since ADWD runs about parallel with AFFC, I would guess that not that much earth-shattering happens, as if it did, the characters in AFFC would have heard about it. I note the singular lack of any mention of anything really happening in the North after the introductory chapter of sending Aemon off, and nothing about Daenarys beyond vague rumors of dragons flying around. Certainly nothing like she was getting close to Westeros.
So, I'm thinking that the resolution to the series is not yet in sight. At the rate Martin is going, I'll be an old man before the freaking thing is done.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:Since ADWD runs about parallel with AFFC, I would guess that not that much earth-shattering happens, as if it did, the characters in AFFC would have heard about it.
On the other hand, I have been fascinated at the ideas presented in this thread of the possible conniving and plotting going on amongst the Tyrells. Who knows what sorts of things might be revealed in ADWD that would shed stunning light on the events of AFFC? What if Tyrion were in the background somewhere pulling the strings! Oh my, but that would be fun. Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
And I, for one, really want to find out the truth of what happened to Davos.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: What if Tyrion were in the background somewhere pulling the strings! Oh my, but that would be fun.
Personally, I"m really curious to see what happened to Varys. If anyone is doing some string pulling, it's going to be him.
quote: And I, for one, really want to find out the truth of what happened to Davos.
Didn't they mention he had been executed in AFFC?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Didn't they mention he had been executed in AFFC?
Yes they did, but I doubt it actually happened. The Manderly family at White Harbor were the ones who supposedly executed him (if I remember correctly), but I don't believe it for a second.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I expect that Varys has made his way to Dany's camp, wouldn't you expect?
quote:Since ADWD runs about parallel with AFFC, I would guess that not that much earth-shattering happens, as if it did, the characters in AFFC would have heard about it.
Not necessarily. The wall is a long way away from most of the action in AFFC, and it's possible that all sorts of stuff is happening with the wights and the others that people in the south aren't aware of.
Also, incredibly important stuff could be going on with Bran without it reaching the ears of any of the characters in AFFC.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
That's true. It's still not entirely clear to me approximately how much time passed in AFFC, anyways. Surely no more than a few months, at most.
Varys to Dany's camp, eh? It's possible, but I'm not sure. I kind of have Varys pegged as either a Faceless Man, or someone actively in the employ of some other faction in the Free Cities. That is, I think it was Varys and that Free Cities merchant whose name escapes me that Arya saw in the tunnels conversing when she was running from the palace guard.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, that was definitely Varys, I agree. But I think he was engineering things to get the Targaryens back on the throne. Now that Tyrion has made it impossible for him to stay in King's Landing in a position from which he can pull strings, I expect he's going to Dany's side. If not that I expect he'll be working from elsewhere to advance her cause.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: ... and that Free Cities merchant whose name escapes me that Arya saw in the tunnels conversing when she was running from the palace guard.
Magister Illyrio, just to clear that up.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
On the other hand, Storm, what does happen with Dany takes a long time to make it to Westeros, and Cersei is inclined to ignore all of it anyway. It's only in this book that we start hearing rumors of dragons in Westeros, after all, and that's just sailor-talk, despite being true.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I am curious why someone like Illyrio(thanks, Carrie) and Varys want the Targaryens back on the throne. I'm not saying that it can't be, I'm just curious why anyone in the Free Cities would really care or favor the Targaryens over anyone else.
Also, Noemon, what evidence do you have for this? The conversation I recall in the tunnels between Illyrio and Varys went something to the effect that one party needed more time for his plans to come to fruition, but I don't recall anything in particular about the Targaryens. I guess I find it hard to believe that the plan was to marry Dany off to Kal Drogo, and then Viserys was to come back and reclaim the Targaryen bloodline.... Again, not to say this isn't possible, but just that it doesn't really have the ring of truth to it.
Rakeesh, possibly. Time is kind of muddied in the books, as I mentioned. I don't think more than...a year, year and a half has really passed since Robert and Cersei first came up to Winterfell....
Kind of mind boggline, isn't it? It is to me. Looking at the publication dates of the books, it's almost ten years now since AGoT was published in this world. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I honestly can't tell you now how I arrived at that hypothesis (and I recognize that I could easily be wrong). Next time I reread the series I'll tell you though.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
No worries. Like I said, it's something that I could see happening. I'm just not clear on why it would.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I'm just scratching my head trying to remember what all you are talking about. I have trouble remembering the details from the book I am currently reading, much less the details from past books. : /
I will definitely be reading the series all again when the books are finished. Anyone know a good place to get caught up on all the little facts that I ought to remember?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Parts are currently under construction, but is the pre-eminent online resource for Fire and Ice lore - has a concordance, history, timelines, and the like.
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
One thing I was wondering was if we ever really knew that Storm's End had fallen, or even that Loras was wounded or at least as wounded as the Tyrell's claimed. Since we never actually saw those events happen, it almost seems like the Tyrell's could be inventing any story. What are they up to...
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Wow, thanks, Carrie! Cliffnotes is *exactly* what I was needing. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Woohooo! To everyone who recommended this series to me ...
I read the books rather fast, so they all kind of blurred together, but I'll attempt to summarize my opinions and etc.
I was really sad that Tyrion didn't get barely any mention in AFFC. I'm really interested in him, and I figured him and Varys would at least partially intertwine, and I was interested in what happened to Varys after his web (apparently) came crashing down.
I missed Jon also. Him and Tyrion, along with Arya, were/are my favorite characters. Honestly, the only reason I read AFFC so fast was because I wanted more stuff about Arya. For some reason her story really drew me. Just for clarification, is she studying to be a Faceless Man?
Sam's chapters were cool, but pretty much only because of Aemon. I reaallllyyy wanna know more about Rhaegar. The whole thing (can't remember which book it was in) about him just 'deciding' to be a knight ... and the whole vision Dany had in Quarth or whatever ... it's all somewhat blurry but I just know that's a huge part of the story.
I didn't consider the Hound not being dead, but I suppose that's a real possibility. I don't think Brienne is done. I don't quite know what's gonna happen with her, but there's no way she's finished as a character.
Cersei ... the only chapter I enjoyed of hers was the last one. It seemed like every other time GRRM introduced a new character, we saw that world through their eyes and actually started to like them. Cersei was just detestable all the way.
Littlefinger ... doesn't he remind you of Achilles (In the Shadow series)? He's no good. One death that I don't think was attributed to him in this thread was Jon Arryn's. He told Lysa to poison him. I'll be very interested to see how all that works out. I don't think he'll win this 'game of thrones', but I think he can definately throw some wrenches into it.
And Dorne ... I was somewhat bored by that storyline until the last chapter where it showed that Doran was not a wimp, simply a very patient enemy. Arianne (sp?) was betrothed to Viserys ... that was an interested revelation. I wonder if Viserys knew? And yes, the sand snake story line will be an interesting one to be sure.
Btw, I wish Sansa's chapters had remained under the name of Sansa instead of Alayne. And Arya under Arya. Etcetera. Etcetera
Ah ... it's all very blurry and very incomplete. I can't wait for the rest of the books to be out! Any clue on a release date?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Dr Strangelove,
I'd say the differene between Littlefinger and Achilles is control. Whereas Achilles is sometimes driven to kill because of internal motivations, Petyr does it within a much broader perspective. When betrayed Ned, you knew he had weighed both options, considered consequences in the long run, and made his decision. So, despite the many their many similarities, that one difference distinguishes them very strongly in my mind.
I agree about Sam's chapters. They were interesting, though not as good as the chapters dealing with Sam's trudge back to the Wall (in SoS?). But that not might be fair, because I consider those the best chapters in the series.
Amen to wanting to know more about Rhaegar.
One of the things that interested me most about AFFC was how much I came to like Jaime. We've got a true redemption going on there. Here's to Jaime and Brienne!
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Thats true, about Achilles and Littlefinger.
I sort of had a feeling from the beginning that if ever we got the chance to know Jaime, we'd end up sympathizing with him.
I really don't quite understand the logic Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn of hanging Brienne. She never broke her oath, at least not that I was aware of. Yes, she hadn't fulfilled it, but she was trying. Jaime too. He was trying to fulfill his oath. Where does she get that they both broke their oaths? I understand she's dead and all, but it just seemed a bit odd to me.
Also, what was up with Thoros' little speech about how they started out honourable and now they're ...?
I'm sorry, I know most of you read this months ago and it isn't fresh in your minds. Apologies for being so late on the bandwagon.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:I really don't quite understand the logic Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn of hanging Brienne. She never broke her oath, at least not that I was aware of. Yes, she hadn't fulfilled it, but she was trying. Jaime too. He was trying to fulfill his oath. Where does she get that they both broke their oaths? I understand she's dead and all, but it just seemed a bit odd to me.
Maybe that's why they call her Stoneheart. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Catelyn's chapters were possibly my absolute least favorite throughout all of the books. I was quite happy when she died. And then she comes back to life. psh.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Where does she get that they both broke their oaths?
She doesn't believe them. She believes that Jaime helped plan the Red Wedding.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I was pretty excited to see what undead-Catelyn's role was, but I was disappointed to discover that Beric had given up his un-life to bring her back; he was among my favorite characters.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think the Free Cities would want Danys in power because she might at least pay her debts. Robert/Cersi didn't, and now they are pissed.
Also, she will have SOME sort of popular support and backing, look at how many people fought for her line against Robert. Even if the Free Cities don't have any goodwill at all towards Danys at all the fact is she will cause a TON of problems for the Lannisters, and it was their descendant that refused to pay their debts off.
I doubt Varys will make it toward Danys...he was the one who suggested killing her, and arranged for the attempt on her life to happen, resulting in both the death of Kal Drago and her baby.
Kwea
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:I really don't quite understand the logic Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn of hanging Brienne.
My understanding of this wasn't so much a logic as a lack thereof. I just kind of inferred she snapped, and wants to kill just about everybody involved in her past life. And everyone involved with them. So clearly Pod the young boy had to go too...
quote:I doubt Varys will make it toward Danys...he was the one who suggested killing her, and arranged for the attempt on her life to happen, resulting in both the death of Kal Drago and her baby.
Ahh, but Dany doesn't know that now does she?
About popular support for her in Westeros though, I agree with you. There was that scene where some peasant told a main character (I think it was Brienne?), "We're good Dragon men," or something along those lines. I definitely read it has hinting to a broader support, especially compared with how utterly crappy things have been for the common man lately with the Game of Thrones being played so openly and violently.
EDIT - By the way, Dr Strangelove, towerofthehand.com says Martin is aiming for a '06 release of ADwD
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Varys arranged for Drogo and the baby's death? I thought that was just as a result of Drogo getting wounded and then the maegi more or less killing him. I didn't think Varys had anything to do with that. Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Arranged for an unsuccessful attempt with the merchant and poisoned wine. And the manticore, I believe.
But the actual deaths were the maegi
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Righht. He tried to kill her, but failed. That was his plan, if I remember. Hire someone incompetent so she didn't actually get killed, but did get pretty ticked off.
Posted by Nikisknight (Member # 8918) on :
Does anyone else hope that Sansa and Tyrion stay married? I think he could have liked her, if she softened up to him being a Lannister.
I also thought that the Dorne parts werre a distraction, until the last page there where the king told his daughter about his plots. Another schemer to keep an eye on.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: Righht. He tried to kill her, but failed. That was his plan, if I remember. Hire someone incompetent so she didn't actually get killed, but did get pretty ticked off.
Exactly; that's my take on it as well.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Does anyone else hope that Sansa and Tyrion stay married? I think he could have liked her, if she softened up to him being a Lannister.
For a while, I hoped that might turn out to be the case. It seems really unfeasible the way things are now though. Something inside Tyrion really seemed to snap the last time we saw him. I'm not sure how it'll be bourne out in ADwD, but it's hard to imagine him being the same person now.
And there's no telling what Sansa will become under Littlefinger's tutelage, especially given the things she's witnessed. She's maintained quite a bit of compassion, as shown in her dealing with Robert (the whiny kid, not the dead King). But we shouldn't forget that she is capable of sacrificing people close to her to get what she wants, as shown by her lying about Nymeria.
There was really nothing between Tyrion and Sansa besides some unidirectional lust and a bit of shared pity anyway. The situation would have had to be monumentally different for something real to have come of it.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: Righht. He tried to kill her, but failed. That was his plan, if I remember. Hire someone incompetent so she didn't actually get killed, but did get pretty ticked off.
Exactly; that's my take on it as well.
Right...but Varys did have a contact....Mormont, who is by Danys side.
And Sir Barristen the Bold, who was a Kingsguard, and who disliked Varys.
quote:With no more travel on my immediate horizons (there's Marcon in Ohio over Memorial Day, and then nothing until the summer), I have finally been able to settle down and get back into A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. That's where most of my time and energy has gone of late. For the last week or so I have been back at the Wall with Jon Snow and the men of the Night's Watch. Jon, I think, will be one of the main beneficiaries of my splitting A FEAST FOR CROWS in two. I will have more room to deal with Jon and Stannis and the wildlings and the rest, which will allow me to flesh out their storylines more and bring them to a better resolution... but it's more than that. Although I had "completed" something on the order of five Jon chapters before deciding to divide the book, I was never really happy with them, and rereading them now has reinforced my feelings. They need to be much stronger, and I believe I see how to do that now. Sometimes putting things on the back burner can work wonders. That where the muse lives (or the moose, as Parris sometimes calls her).
Oh, and I've also come up with a new title for the seventh (and final, I hope, I hope, I hope) volume of the series -- A DREAM OF SPRING. I like the sound of that a lot better than A TIME FOR WOLVES, which has been my working title for book seven up to now, and I also think it gives a better sense of the book that I want to write. So -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, then THE WINDS OF WINTER, then A DREAM OF SPRING. Shouldn't take me long (hah).
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I just hope we get A Dance With Dragons by 2007. That would seem an excellent timetable to me. Thanks for the update.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Jon! Woo! *bounces*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. Assuming he had written, as he claimed, around 11 chapters of Dance with Dragons already (before splitting the book), the fact that he's going to rewrite five of them is probably not going to do the timeframe any favors.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Probably so, but I'd much rather have a better book than an earlier one. As long as he finishes the series before dying, I'm willing to wait.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: As long as he finishes the series before dying, I'm willing to wait.
Shh! Don't give him any ideas! Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Is there an estimted date for the release of the audio book of A Feast for Crows? I just did a little poking around and didn't see one, but I could easily have missed it.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I'm pretty sure that AFFC is already out on audio -- I remember reading some kvetching by audiophiles that the narrator for it isn't as good as Roy Dotrice, who did the first 3 books.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Looks like you're right. Thanks plaid!
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
New sample chapter up at GRRM's website! and... it's a Tyrion chapter!!
That certainly made me go back and read the chapter in AFFC again.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
I'm halfway through right now, and very carefully not reading any posts in this thread. I think I have most of the secrets in the first three books riddled out, so I wasn't expecting to be surprised by any plot twists in AFfC -- but in terms of simple quality, this book is not living up to its predecessors. So far, anyway.
I'm bumping this so I can come back to it later and read other people's opinions. I wonder if anyone else thinks Martin's underperforming, at least relative to his past three marvels?
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I had the same reaction half-way through, Lalo. But after I finished and esp. several weeks afterwards as I let the book seep in and meld with the other books, it became a lot more satisfying.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I loved that new Tyrion chapter, btw. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Lalo, I definitely find it to be the weakest of the series so far. It's a pretty common opinion of it, I believe.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
While I still feel I like it least of the four so far, I generally attribute that to the fact that it doesn't deal with my favorite characters very much at all-Tyrion, Arya, Jon Snow.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I still liked it a lot, and thought it was great, but the other books were even better.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
The main weakness of the book is that GRRM originally meant for there to be a 5-year jump in the story, and the material in AFFC was meant to be backstory that would be worked into the next book. He says that approach just didn't work for him... so AFFC as he wrote it ended up writing being (mostly) a tidying up of the loose ends after A Storm of Swords, and a setup for the rest of the series. There's just not as much going on in this book as in the first three.
(Hopefully once the series is done, AFFC will have a better "feel" to it, for being the book that gives one a chance to catch one's breath before the next series of catastrophes...)
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
Yeah, I agree with the consensus that AFFC wasn't as good as the rest of the series. Of course, ASOS was probably my favorite book so far, and the battle at the Wall at the end of ASOS is one of my favorite battles in all of bookdom, so AFFC had a lot to live up to.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Initial reaction: What?!
After consideration: What?!?!
One of my biggest peeves was how casually he killed off Sandor Clegane. I thought he might be the monk who claimed to have buried the Hound, but Clegane isn't that well-spoken -- if he's changed that radically, he's ruined. The man was the best character Martin had, he deserved a better death than a second-hand account of his burial.
Argh. I know I'm missing a ton, but at least I finally got this monkey off my back. I'm going back through it soon.
Man. I'm going to re-read this, but, man. Other books left me stunned, this one left me angry. I hope to god this epic won't become another disappointment.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Who says Sandor Clegane is dead?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by plaid: Cersei pregnant? Hmm, hadn't thought about that, I'd ntocied maybe one reference to Cersei complaining about tight dresses and taken it as more of her worrying about getting old and losing her beauty.
Cersei's got to survive (at least for now) -- doesn't the prophesy say that she'll see all of her children die?
Did anyone notice any possible references to Rickon? I don't have any of the GRRM books handy right now, but where was it that Rickon and Osha were headed off to -- was it the Menderly family?
Also: did any of the scenes in AFFC match the visions that Dany had in the weird house in, um, Qorth (hope I'm getting that right) back in the second book?
Cersei'll have only three children, according to the maegi. It could be stillborn, I guess, but that'd be stretching the rules.
I'm having fun counting down Robert's bastards. Sixteen, right? And they're everywhere, you'd think he populated half of Westeros himself.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Huh. Does nobody but me care about the onion knight? I almost believe Manderly killed him, since he wasn't important enough to lie about in the first place -- and I kinda liked Davos Seaworth. Not as much as the Hound, but still.
It doesn't seem like Martin to kill off a character without even introducing him in the book, so I'm suspicious -- but it's hard to see him weaseling out of this report. Unless Cersei was lied to; Rickon and Osha are at White Harbor, aren't they? And if Stannis has made common cause with Jon Snow, and if Manderly's still loyal to the Starks, maybe Rickon was able to win him back to the North and inspire him to play games with Cersei. I've met Martin, and I can see why he'd want to make a fat man more than the usual quivering caricature.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I view it as very unlikely Davos is dead, when viewed against the possibility Cersei-an utterly inept and stupid ruler if there ever was one-was lied to be any advisor or 'ally'.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:I want to see Jon Snow be king. Yes, yes, he's bastard born. I don't care.
We don't know that for sure. Lyanna and Rhaegar could have gotten married. The Targaryens did practice polygamy.
And even if R+L=J isn't true, Robb gave indication that he would legitimize Jon and make him the heir to the North before he died. Whether he did or not is another matter.
No, Robb did make Jon his heir. Go back through ASOS, it's a Catelyn chapter -- she was upset about Jon being legitimized, and worrying how Jon's children might contend with Robb's own for future inheritance. Robb dismissed her, and had his lords bear witness to his will to leave the North to Jon.
It's part of what makes Jon's sacrifice of Stannis' offer of Winterfell so ironic. He gave up one castle to be Lord Commander, and soon he may need to decide to give up the kingdom.
Which he won't, because he ends up with Dany -- it's in the title. Ice and fire: Snow and Targaryen.
I keep wondering how Stannis will die... He's a good guy, in truth -- the more I read of him, the more I pity him. He doesn't even seem aware that he's killed his brother. Martin had better give him a hero's death.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
What he seems really unaware of is how much a pawn he is to someone other than the Lord of the Light. That's hoow I read his almost-hero's sword.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:yes, I am still working on A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, and yes, I still hope to deliver it this fall, or by the end of the year at the latest.
Exxxxcellent.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
This is such a good thread. Wow. Bumping based on an exchange in "In Awe of a Storm of Swords"
Xavier, I really don't have a whole lot of argument. I agree that this book was more... setup, than the other three. Less was resolved. But I also feel that there was a lot more setup than the other books. And, I don't think this is a bad thing. It didn't bother me. Important things were still happening, they just weren't important resolutions.
Yes, there was no Tyrion/Jon/Dany etc. But there was Jaime, who is fast approaching Tyrion as an intelligent, funny character. There was Brienne, who is just as honorable and decent as a Stark. There was Victarion and Aeron and Arys and Arianne and Hotah and all of their machinations, which were very exciting (I think you agree with me on that one). And yes, Cersei, who is totally repugnant. But some of the most exciting things were happening in her chapters! The Faith re-arming, a renegade fleet, Zombor; not to mention the setup for the potential dethroning of both the Lannister and Tyrell kings.
I loved Brienne's chapters. I loved getting a view of the smaller side of things, seeing some of the firsthand effects of the War of Five Kings. However inconsequential it may be in the long run, I loved seeing a few more of the worst soldiers in the war getting their comeuppance. I loved seeing that Sandor is still alive, and possibly even beginning to gain a measure of peace. As much as I love him as the tortured irreverent bastard he was in the first three books, I don't begrudge him some measure of contentment or a possible change of heart.
But not much of this really disputes what you said. I agree withy our main premise of "Not enough was resolved", but I disagree that it's a big enough flaw to diminish the book.
If a book's most serious flaws basically revolve around it only being ridiculously long, and not really really ridiculously long (which it would need to be to have proper climaxes and/or show more characters), it doesn't seem like much of a flaw.
But, again, that's because I loved reading all the random things we DID see. I wouldn't trade them, even for climactic events. ASOIAF is totally unlike WOT in that regard, for me anyway. No matter how long it may drag on, it all feels so much more authentic and meaningful.
You know, I felt incredible sadness when Nimble Dick was killed. What other author could make a character so loveable in such a short span of time?
Edit: That last bit was just me marveling to myself, not really meant as an argument of anything.
[ September 06, 2007, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Dan_Frank ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:This is such a good thread. Wow. Bumping based on an exchange in "In Awe of a Storm of Swords"
You should also see this one. For more theories, discussion, and ramblings.
[Edit: Nevermind, I see you've already posted on that thread!]
quote:not to mention the setup for the potential dethroning of both the Lannister and Tyrell kings.
Yeah, the whole crux of my disappointment is that every plot in the book was mere setup. I know some really cool and important things are going to happen, but I knew that before AFFC came out, and here we are again waiting multiple years to see it still.
quote:If a book's most serious flaws basically revolve around it only being ridiculously long, and not really really ridiculously long (which it would need to be to have proper climaxes and/or show more characters), it doesn't seem like much of a flaw.
The first novel is the shortest in the series so far, and accomplishes exponentially more plot development. The key difference is that every single sentence of every single page in AGOT is valuable to the story. The story is incredibly tight. For AFFC, entire chapters can be discarded with very little lost. I'm of the opinion that Brienne's entire plotline can be discarded without much loss. I think Martin has become rather indulgent of his characters and his story, which weakens the narrative overall. The fact that the book is so ungodly long, with so very little resolved, is why people like Porter fear he's going to pull a Robert Jordan.
(Of course, in my estimation of the two writers, I don't think Jordan is worthy of writing the blurb on the back of a Martin book.)
The fact that he is struggling so mightily with a book that was supposed to be half done before we ever even got our hands on AFFC makes me rather worried. I went into AFFC expecting a masterpiece, and am trying to manage my expectations better this time around.
I think the first three books of the series are some of the finest pieces of literature ever published (I really do), so I say that with a big frown.
Edit:
Now that some time has passed, and ADWD still has no light at the end of the tunnel, I sort of wish Martin had waited.
I think the books would have been far better sent off to the editor as one humongous manuscript, and then edited with a hacksaw. I think if you put ADWD and AFFC together, and then edit it down by half, you'd probably get another masterpiece.
[ September 06, 2007, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I hate to admit it, but you're probably right.
I just... I honestly am not sure if I care whether or not it's a masterpiece. I just love everything in the story too much. I LIKE reading about the supposed noble ancestry of the Crabbs. I LIKE reading about the Knight of the Blood-Red Chicken whose blade dripped in gore. I LIKE reading about Shagwell and Rorge getting their just desserts. It doesn't bother me that these things have no bearing on the plot. I could probably read a novella entitled "A Day In The Life of Potbellied Pate, a farmer from the Reach" and be absolutely enthralled.
But I acknowledge that this is just because he's completely and utterly hooked me. From a more objective standpoint, the book probably would have benefited from some trimming.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Hey man, don't let me bring down your enjoyment of the book!
I wish I felt the same way you do. While I do enjoy those things, I'd probably enjoy them far more if they weren't slowing down a great epic story.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I never saw this thread when it first came out, for it was before my time... I just have to say this.
Why do all these lucky people get to live in New Mexico?
There's like, a whole slew of fantasy writers there, and some of them, even as accomplished as GRRM, workshop their stuff!!! I'm so jealous. I would never actually write anything, but I'd sit in the group like an eager puppy, waiting for new sample chapter from one of them, should I live there (Or just visit)... Although, Jane Lindskold says she doesn't workshop her stuff... That's kind of a bummer.
Wow. I'm getting bummed out over an imaginary visit to New Mexico. That's sad.
[/rambling]
Posted by Adam_S (Member # 9695) on :
the thing with AFFC is that everything within it is an appendix to the main story. you could cut it off because it's not an essential organ.
That would be very different if Brienne's story had a point, but just getting her to one significant decision took eight chapters, in AGOT or ASOS, characters were dealing with decisions and events like that every other chapter. Likewise for Jaime. Cersei is the only person who does significant things, but she's so incompetent and twirly moustache evil villain that you're more frustrated with her than worried or invested in what she does. Mainly I just wanted her chapters to be over. Sam's chapters have the same problem as Brienne's, the first interesting thing to happen in his story was at the very very end of his last chapter--that's frustrating. Virtually every POV character in the book felt like half a story. Which is funny because the split was supposed to give us the whole story of half the characters, rather I feel with AFFC that I got half the story for half the characters. Only Arya and Sansa had the same economy of storytelling found in the prior novels, and it's telling that they're the only two POV characters from AGOT in AFFC.
long before AFFC was close to done, I was a big opponent to the idea of a five year gap (originally there was planned to be five years of storytime between ASOS and ADWD for characters to grow and develop and events to mature towards a new crisis, since a sort of stasis was achieved by the events of ASOS), but now I wish it had happened. I really like the idea of the story picking up again, in media res, in the sort of way that AGOT begins, and if there were stories like Brienne's or Martell's that needed to be told, pull a Tolkien and explain it in an appendix.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I live all of those books. Brienne is one of my favorite characters, too, and I think she will have a huge influence in what comes.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Last night I dreamed that Catelyn found Arya, and Bran started having dreams about going back to Winterfell. Then Catelyn happened to come across Sansa at the Eyrie for some reason. Both stared at the other, not believing it could be possible. Then everyone went to Winterfell, and Catelyn gave a speech about how they were going to rebuild from the ashes. They started working on it, and eventually Jon returned to Winterfell as well. When Catelyn saw him, she hugged him, and I knew that forgiveness would begin between the two of them. In my dream, there was another son down south who had not yet returned, but I knew he would with time.
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