I accept the idea that email, IM and forum postings are not really subject to the same strict grammar/punctuation codes as other forms of written communication.
However, sometimes I just can't help myself. I snort behind my hand, and secretly think others foolish. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet there are a few others here who share this character flaw.
Let me give you some examples:
A fellow Ron worked with was up for a Sales position within the same company. It would mean a lot more money for him as well as a relocation package. Trying to be a go-getter, he sent his potential new boss an email, and showed it to Ron after it was sent. In it, the poor sap spelled "sales" as "sells" as in "sellsman" and "I look forward to working with you in Sells." *facepalm* He didn't get the job, and since Ron hadn't seen the email until after the poor guy had already sent it, he didn't correct him.
Why didn't he have someone look it over before he sent it? Because most people have no idea how illiterate they actually are. I include myself in this - always, always, for the love of God, get somebody to proofread your important crap. Before you send it.
Recently -- this is the one I feel really bad about -- I have noticed some troubles with emails sent by the room mother for one of my sons' classes. I feel bad about it because I know Room Mother is a crap job. It sucks to have to beg everybody to volunteer and stuff. She goes above and beyond the call of duty, too. She forwards the occassional Amber Alert and the like, which I think is neat. It also shows her to be a civic-minded and caring individual.
But, I HATE ALL CAPS!!! AND MULTIPLE!!!! EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!! THANK YOU ALLL SO MUCH FOR MAKING THE PARTY A HUGH SUCCESS!!!!
Yeah, she also spells "huge" H U G H. At first, I thought it was just a random typo, and who really cares if there are a few typos in a hastily-written email? But the HUGHs kept coming. Nothing is ever "big" it's "HUGH!!!"
*bangs head*
Recently, she sent out an email listing what was needed for the Thanksgiving Party. A short time later, she sent another one, saying, "THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE HUGH RESPONSE!!! Now all we like are doughnuts." It's common enough in the South for people to pronounce the words "like" and "lack" exactly the same, admittedly. I'm not accustomed to seeing it in print, though.
This is where I switched over from giggling to being truly mortified on her behalf. All we like are doughnuts, indeed. I recognized in her a fellow escapee from "Hickville USA" and I could no longer scoff. "These suburban women will eat her alive," I realized.
Then I got a call from her because her child (named after a non-commercial airplane) was coming to a party for my son. After a brief conversation, I found out her mother had died in the summer (she was only in her 50s) and the poor lady still misses talking to her about their favorite soap operas. *bites lip* I gave her what comfort I could manage, having known first-hand that it helps so much more when coming from someone who has known that kind of loss. Even if you don't really speak the same language.
So, Come Gawk At Olivet!!! The AMAZING Human Slug!!!! She's HUGH!!!!
(But feels very, very small.)
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I like doughnuts. Hugh doughnuts.
-pH
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, dear.
Oh, dear.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
Olivet - once I read your explanation of "Now all we like are doughnuts," my internal voice went all southern on me in a way it hasn't since I moved out of Southwest Virginia.
Thanks. Really. Thanks.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:my internal voice went all southern on me
oddly, so did mine!
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
I think we may be a bit spoiled here at Hatrack, at least in terms of the grammar/punctuation-in-online-media issue. But then again, we are the ones who set the standard and enforce it.
Of course, this means we don't get quite so many of those happy accidents, like that untentional yet valid and truthful comment about liking doughnuts. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Thanks, guys
Risuena - where in Southwest Virginia? I used to work for the government in Bristol, VA, which is about as far south and west as you can go and still be in Virginia. I found the accent tnere to be softer and more pleasing than the extreme NorthEast TN twang, though they havve some similarities.
mack:
And, my point was kind of that it is less than kind to make fun of people for stupid stuff like that, and I want to be a better person. I also really do like doughnuts.
Edit: Danged Grammar Nazis!!!
[ October 26, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Olivet ]
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I know what you mean Olivet. Usually my internal snarky self kicks in immediately (like people on freecycle that would like to come get the cloths I have to offer - cloths? I don't remember offering cloths? Clothes though, I have some of those). Not being in the south, I had to read that line about the donuts about a million times before I could understand what on earth she was talking about.
After I recover from my case of spelling superiority, I feel bad, especially since there really isn't a good way to help them. With friends you can usually correct their grammar or spelling without much of a problem, but with aquaintences or random strangers there's no way to help them without seeming rude and giving offense.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
Olivet - I went to school at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg. If I remember correctly, that's about an hour from Bristol. Of course, the majority of people I knew in the Burg were from the DC area, but the townies definitely had an accent and if you went into the surrounding areas... Let's just say, it wasn't always understandable.
Being a native Marylander, it took me about three years to find my inner southerner and accept that I'd picked up a bit of an accent and that saying "y'all" was not a bad thing.
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
What really bothers me is bizarre punctuation in signs. Last night we drove by a church that had the following sign:
quote: DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING "GOD"
Even forgetting the lack of a question mark, why, why, why was "God" in quotation marks?
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
The sell/sale mixup is rampant in Utah too, Olivet. You'll see signs all the time saying, "Car for Sell" or "Must Sale Immediately!" And the quotation marks thing . . . I have no idea about that. It's just bizarre.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
It's a general lack (like? ) of understanding about what quotation marks are for. I think some people are genuinely baffled by the vast array of punctuation options, and so, like using a hammer will pretty much solve all hardware problems, use them with enthusiasm if not finesse. (!!!!!)
I love that book Eats Shoots and Leaves, where this is discussed for entire chapters.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ophelia: What really bothers me is bizarre punctuation in signs. Last night we drove by a church that had the following sign:
quote: DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING "GOD"
Even forgetting the lack of a question mark, why, why, why was "God" in quotation marks?
I read that as, "Do you know where you are going, 'God?'"
-pH
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Years ago when my father was an elementary school teacher, he had a principal who couldn't spell and would send out embarrassing memos. Since he usually got to school earlier than the other teachers, on more than one occasion he caught a typo before it got distributed to all the parents.
One of the ones that makes me cringe is the use of the apostrophe to indicate a plural: We have car's for sell. But the honest truth is, my fingers just betray me and I do it myself when I'm not thinking, especially when it's a proper name: We've invited the Brown's over for dinner. I know better. But the fingers are evil. They also betray me when typing homonyms: I no better than to spell like this. Yes, we have know bananas.
I guess it keeps me humble. And I try to keep my grammar Nazi tendencies secret unless I'm getting paid to exhibit them!
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I "like" donuts in both senses of the word. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
My grammar Nazi tendencies come out from time to time. I'm unapologetic, though, when I see errors like that in commercial print (like advertising and such) and I especially get a kick out of it when those types of mistakes are made on the radio or TV.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I usually try to keep mum about it, unless I'm being paid. I guess it's true, though, that many people are baffled by punctuation.
Mistakes like that in print do annoy me, though.
Sometimes it really helps. I remember being nervous about touring UVA (I thought of going to grad school there before I started getting good job offers). Ron pointed to a notice on bulletin board that said "Prosceptive Students should call _______ for information." This was specific to their English proogram, BTW.
After reading that, I was not only much less nervous about touring campus, but also much less interested in applying. *shrug* Guess I took it as a sign. Didn't have enough black in my wardrobe, anyway.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My husband's grandfather wrote a book about the Dallas Temple and had it privately published for use within the stake and family.
My husband's aunt was apparently in charge of "editing".
Let me just say that if that is what it looks like "edited", I do not ever want to see the original manuscript.
(Let me also say that I would NEVER ask that woman to edit anything of mine, having seen her family newsletter-- and that newsletter is done with the aid of a word processing program that has spelling and grammar check! )
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:This was specific to their English proogram, BTW.
<snort!>
Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Ophelia: What really bothers me is bizarre punctuation in signs. Last night we drove by a church that had the following sign:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING "GOD" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even forgetting the lack of a question mark, why, why, why was "God" in quotation marks? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty sure that it's meant to mock the Cingular commercial.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I don't get it. What Cingular commercial?
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote: Not being in the south, I had to read that line about the donuts about a million times before I could understand what on earth she was talking about.
I still have no idea what it's all about. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
"Lack" is pronounced "like". So the woman wrote "like" instead of "lack".
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Oh, sorry... I thought there was something different about the pronuciation of doughnuts... the sentence made no sense anyway. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
She meant "Of all the things I needed for the party, all we lack are the doughnuts." Because people say "lack" and "like" exactly the same way in some places, she just put in the wrong word.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Olivia said:
quote: Soouthwest Virginia?
I get what you're saying. I'm on a yahoo loss group, and some days I think I'm the only person on it who took English classes. There is one woman who TYPES EVRYTHING IN BIG BLUE CAPS. I feel terrible for being judgemental, given the purpose of the group, but I bet most of them have always had bad grammar.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I am always amazed that people who graduated from high school can communicate so ineffectively in writing.
It just shouldn't be possible.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
My keyboard is sticky. Honest.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I, of course, do not mean anyone on this board.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
It wouldn't have been as funny in another topic, Livvie.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Oh, I know. It's just so annoying. For every double-letter that slips through I had to go back and edit three. It's mostly in the upper part of the right hand and lower part of the left hand. I don't know how to clean it.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
What is really scary is the homeschooling forum at Mothering. I actually copy and paste some of the posts into Word and have my 8 year old correct them as a grammar exercise. (Note: I would never do that on a private forum) (Another note: I do not repost his corrected posts).
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Right now they have Robert doing a lot of proof-reading in Grammar. It's fun, though I have to remind myself not to be too picky with him. Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
ah... the mothering dot commune...
brings back some memories... Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Jim-Me, who were you there? I was mom2godzillas, but am now lying low under a pseudonym. (Let's just say I got on Cynthia Mosher's bad side. )
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
( I think I just hatracked this thread)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Ah, drat, can see the titles but not read the posts without registering.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
That's OK. The poor grammar and spelling would make your eyes bleed.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:What really bothers me is bizarre punctuation in signs.
I have seen signs like this:
"please" do not "sit" on the "railings"
O.o
EDIT: Oh, sorry, correctly it would be...
"please" do "not" "sit" on the "railing's"
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
When I read that, do you know what I pictured? That episode of Friends where Joey can't figure out how to use the "quotation fingers" thing correctly. Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
A friend of mine recently made contact via our beloved internet with someone who, in their profile, listed a love for gerunds.
Grammar Nazis Unite - Perhaps the begining of a dating agency?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: I got a call from her because her child (named after a non-commercial airplane) was coming to a party for my son.
Cessna?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I'd bet Piper.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Leer. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Cessna.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Leer.
Only appropriate for this thread.
It's spelled Lear.
And I vote for Boeing. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Worrying about punctuation is small work for small people. I think it actually goes with the people who obsess over perfect pitch. Good grammar is nice and should be encouraged, even expected at some level, but if you severely attach punctuation to the quality of someone's character, then I think its a flaw in your own character.
Writing and speaking fluently has come slowly to me. Maybe I'm dyslexic. I don't know, and I'm not sure it's important. I do know that any gains I've made with respect to pure syntax have not made me a better person, only a more acceptable and fashionable writer. The clarity of thought that inspires the words is what I'd judge, and the placement of a comma or semicolon is always, always secondary.
Grammar Nazies have very little to be proud of. Actually, they have good grammar to be proud of, and I think that's kind of sad.
To be clear, it is not at all virtuous to wantonly disregard grammar; to an extent, it's disrespectful to your audience. But to fetishize grammar seems even worse, or shows that we have lost our way. That said, the fable is perfect.
The woman cares more about her mother than the difference between like and lack, and I'm happy to hear it.
[ October 27, 2005, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Worrying about punctuation is small work for small people.
HEER; HEER!!!! Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I'll second that.
Irami, I think you're making the serious mistake of assuming that everyone who is concerned with good grammar and punctuation is obsessed with good grammar and punctuation. You start with worrying and then work your way up pretty quickly to fetishizing. That's a pretty big leap and a pretty big generalization.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I'll second that.
Irami, I think you're making the serious mistake of assuming that everyone who is concerned with good grammar and punctuation is obsessed with good grammar and punctuation. You start with worrying and then work your way up pretty quickly to fetishizing.
Oh look! I have a fetish! I've always wanted one!
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Irami, I think you missed the point of Olivet's post. She was saying exactly what you said, but in a self-deprecating fable form, as stated in the subject, and minus the didactic approach. You wouldn't have understood that this lady's caring for her family was more important than her grammar errors if Olivet hadn't written it to make exactly that point. And I think the rest of us were pretty much making fun of our own tendencies to be preoccupied w/ nitpicking.
That said, the world DOES judge us on the way we write. So I go along w/ everyone else in saying that if it doesn't come naturally, have someone proofread stuff you send out for public consumption. Protection from the Grammar Nazis, if nothing else! ;-)
[edited to change 'poing' to 'point', LOL--a Freudian slip?]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Actually, Irami is basically re-stating the original point of this thread. He's being a bit harsher than I intended, but maybe that's a good thing.
I wanted to tell a story that Grammar Nazis could identify with, then lead them, gently, along with me as I discovered the error of my ways.
It is stupid to judge someone based on their grammar or typing skills (unless, maybe, you are considering them for a job where those things are important). My point was that we're all basically the same. I don't watch soaps. I've been to college. Yet, this woman and I both experienced the pian of losing someone very close to us. The seismic shift of losing our mothers is something we share, something we both can speak to from our experience.
Everyone will make a grammar or spelling mistake -- even the most jaded Grammar obsessive, and I think none of us would like to be judged by that. Surely we can find soome happy balance between being puzzled by confusing or nonsensical spelling or punctuation and nit-picking each other to the point that we don't really see the other person.
I was trying to be light and gentle, but I must have erred on the side of caution.
It IS small and selfish to focus on something so trivial. When I referred to it as a "character flaw" I was NOT being ironic.
Allowing yourself to be distracted by such things is just another way of avoiding seeing the good in people, of lifting our small little selves above them.
Edit:Thank you, Uprooted. I'm glad somebody was listening. Irami and I have a bit of history, so I do sort of think he was trying to rile me up. *shrug* So it was ironic that he agreed with me, in essence. It maybe shows that I wasn't terribly clear to begin with, though. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I rewrote a resume yesterday. I really shouldn't have been doing it considering if he gets the job he'll leave the company. But he's a good egg. Weightlifter Bob asked me to help him out. WB read it and knew it needed massive help but that he couldn't do it quickly enough, and that I'd probably do a better job anyway.
I had nothing better to do because it's been slow in the lab and was a heck of a lot more fun than just cruising the internet all day.
I went on the company website that he was applying to, and lo, they had a specific format they wanted resumes in. The guys were amazed that I a) found the format and b) knew how to do it. They wanted it computer scannable, and no bullets, underlining, caps, font changes or anything. I did put his name in 14pt font and do a few headings bold, but kept it to an absolute minimum. The only other formatting tool I used was a single "tab" in.
They also had pretty pointed comments about what sort of specific details they were looking for on a resume which were quite helpful. (I was surprised; a lot of companies aren't quite that explicit.) Either way, what he had before sort of resembled a functional resume, and they were requesting a chronological resume. Turns out he has 17 years of CNC machining experience. You wouldn't have known it from his first resume.
With my revision it becomes immediately clear why he's fluent in English, Russian and Polish, with basic German and Greek. He lived in Poland behind the iron curtain, went to trade school, worked two years out of trade school, spent 2 years in the Polish Army, then 2 years with a German company that sent him to Greece for a year, then came to the US has 12 years of work history here.
The only thing I think I may have made a mistake on (and it isn't that major) is that his time in 'Germany' may have been before the Berlin wall fell so I probably should have said west or east but I didn't think of it at the time. The city is there though. And even with that the resume is at least 500 times better than it was there before, because he'd had more major factual mistakes in it prior to my revision.
Then I was a real softie and helped him out with the cover letter too. I hope he gets the job; it actually appears to be a pretty good fit of qualifications and experience. However, if he does, then I've lost my carte blanche I now have in the Tool room as a result of helping him out.
Really, his grammar wasn't that bad, it was simply he had no clue as to what was required on the modern resume. I was able to automatically do the little things, like making sure formatting is identical on every entry, that make a huge difference in readability. No one notices when they are there, but when they are missing the lack of continuity often throws the readers eye.
Maybe I should have been a technical writer. I'm anal retentive enough and I do enjoy it. When I'm free typing my spelling can get creative, but I can catch most spelling errors if I'm actually reading a piece of paper. I don't know if I'd still like it if it was what I *had* to do for work. Though I'd say about 35% of my job now does involve technical writing.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Sigh, as far as the character flaw portion Olivet, do you ever catch yourself volunteering to do the writing for it, because you *know* you'll do a better job than anyone else in the room?
I mean I know compared to some of the people here on hatrack, I'm no great shakes at writing or editing. However compared to ordinary people (and I don't mean that condescendingly) I write in the upper 90%. Part of me resents that I end up in the 'writing' or note-taking roles in a couple of the meetings I attend because I'm also the only female in the room. Yet, logically I know I'm the best at it also. I go round and round on that aspect of my grammar snobbishness.
AJ
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Good grammar is like wearing the right shoes. It's not the whole of you, and you shouldn't really be judge by it... but it totally sets the tone for the whole package.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I get dragged into doing the writing a lot, because people know I have edited copy for pay. It's a double -edged sword, though, because people expect you to be 'perfect' which sometimes translates in people's heads to "no squiggles." *giggle-snort*
I think, as long as we are scrupulous about not judging people based on their inability to do things we seem naturally good at, then we're okay.
I mean, I wouldn't want to be judged by how I look in a bikini or how good I am at basketball. People DO judge others based on those kinds of things, but it is just as wrong as judging people harshly for a comma splice.
(I'm bad with commas, actually. Have to pay extra attention to them or I put in way too maany. *snort*)
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Olivet, when I said:
quote:That said, the fable is perfect.
The woman cares more about her mother than the difference between like and lack, and I'm happy to hear it.
It's silly that I can call her story perfect, explain the message clearly and correctly-- if forcefully-- and still be accused of antagonizing her.
I meant exactly what I said. Olivet was clear. I did understand, and she was right. If anything, I wanted to cut into all of the crap that came after the initial post. You are a tall, smart woman, Olivet, if I ever mean to rile you up, you'll know.
As to everyone else, my point was this:
quote:Allowing yourself to be distracted by such things is just another way of avoiding seeing the good in people, of lifting our small little selves above them.
Except when I said it, I wanted you to know that I was damn serious.
[ October 27, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Okay, Sorry. I admit to letting our history distract me. So, we're cool?
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Oh, and I WAS a bit distressed at the turn the thread had taken, I just didn't have the balls to say what you said. At least not that strongly.
So, thank you. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
So is it really small minded of me to still be thinking that grammar and spelling is very important and is something people should take care in?
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
No, I wouldn't go that far. It does make you look stupid if you do it wrong.
I think we should all take care in our own usage, and be helpful and supportive when we see an opportunity to help someone else. If someone is obviously struggling with these issues in work memos or email, offer to help out.
I just think it's wrong to be personally dissmissive of people based on bad skilz. It may be an indicator of the over-all picture, but it's still a surface thing. Professional stuff is slightly more serious, I suppose, but on a personal level I would prefer to be a person who sees people first, mistakes second. Or fifth. Just later than the really important, human stuff.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:So is it really small minded of me to still be thinking that grammar and spelling is very important and is something people should take care in?
No, it's not very important. I mean, some rules say that it's improper to end a sentence with a preposition.
Yes, people should take care in and try not to make the same mistake twice.
But I think your smallness comes in shoes. I like a nice pair of shoes, but what kind of package does that set the tone for?
These are all distractions and signs of decadence. It's as if we lost our compass for-- or became scared to talk about-- what matters, and elevated quibbling to fill in the gap.
__ Olivet,
Of course we are cool.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
quote: Olivet,
Of course we are cool.
This actually means quite a lot to me. I hope we can be friendly again. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
On the other hand I draw the line at editing incorrect grammar in my boss' crappy review of me. I truly think that it was his poor writing skilz and my well written rebuttal that was why they made him redo it and give me at least a cost of living increase.
AJ
(moral of that story, if you are going to screw someone over, make sure your own story is written so it's airtight otherwise you look really dum)
AJ
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Yay for Banna! *applauds*
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Irami, I apologize. I totally missed the "That said, the fable is perfect" line in your post, which really does clarify your meaning, so my response was pretty stupid!
I still take some offense at the "small work for small people" line, though. If you are indeed only referring to the Grammar Nazis who think that they are more intelligent than the common masses because they can spot a typo, then I agree. However, I think that editing is important work, so if that's your definition of "small work," then I disagree. Misspellings and misuse of punctuation, not to mention clumsy diction, get in the way of communication; I would not have understood "all we like are donuts" without Olivet's explanation.
That said, the fable IS perfect and the point well taken. Look, we probably all have a little *name your own expertise* nazi hiding within--the tendency to judge those who appear inept where we are capable. To be human, we have to tell that little nazi to shut up and look at the areas where that other person outshines us, or simply for common ground as humans.
For example, I'm not one to think Bush is an idiot because he's not particularly articulate. I also don't think an IQ test measures much of anything important about our value as human beings.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Irami, I don't mind Olivet saying it nicely.
I don't need you to come in and rephrase everything she said in such a condescending, nasty matter.
I have no problems wtih English reading comprehension.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Olivet, I hope you know this is written with all the love in the world when I type: would you please stop posting fables and finish your Landmark????? <---- a sentence that should also have lots of !!! too.
Some of us are losing our grip on the edge of the cliff.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I don't know how to clean it.
Stick it in the dishwasher, if you've got one (and if the keyboard isn't part of a laptop ). Seriously.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Wow. I'll try that.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: It IS small and selfish to focus on something so trivial. When I referred to it as a "character flaw" I was NOT being ironic.
Some of us do this for a living, you know. I don't appreciate having my livelihood referred to as a character flaw. Of course, this does not mean that I look down my nose at people who don't have superior writing skills.
Pretty much any personality attribute can be taken to a fault. Being concerned with language is not necessarily a bad thing.
And I'll second ketchupqueen again: Irami, you're being at least as petty and judgmental as you're accusing others of being.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Jon Boy, hon, *I* do it for a living, too. People don't PAY me to nitpick their emails and forum postings, so if I do that, it is for my own amusement. It may not be amusement at looking smarter or or 'putting them in their place' but it still isn't a product of loving your neighbor. Unless it is a serious thing that is actually causing them harm somehow, in which case it would NOT be appropriate to do it in public, I think.
Edit: It just doesn't seem kind, to me. However, neither do Irami's comments, though I know that just seems to be his style.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away. By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Yes, I am judging. I judge the lady in your story kind for caring about her mother more than the difference between like and lack. I judge your job as small, Jon Boy, if your job is merely correcting grammar. Your livelihood isn't a flaw. It's just small. You have a nice wife and a baby on the way. Those are both HUGE, so it's not as if more important work isn't cut out for you. I worked at a grocery store for years, and my job was pretty small too, and I gave people food.
Some people are accountants. You know what, accounting is small work. We need them, the profession is filled, fine. But if I went to an accounting website and saw a discussion of accountants laughing at those ignorant simps who can't do their own taxes, I would think the same thing about them. ___
As an aside, I went to a banquet for translators, mostly french, dutch, and spanish, and I found it hilarious how seriously these translators took their work. Now, translating is hard and necessarily business, but these people actually preened at their wit as if they had written the material. Again, translating is thoughtful work, but you should have seen these cats and kittens, purring at their own genius. They weren't even proud of the translations, they were proud of the plot of the stories and poems, again, as if they had written them.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That was one of the rudest, snobbiest, most uncharitable and most delusional things I've ever read.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I find it hilarious how seriously you take yourself, Irami.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Irami, do you not see translation--good translation, anyway--as a creative process? A good translator is an artist, I think. A different sort of an artist than an author, sure, but an artist nonetheless.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I usually try to keep mum about it, unless I'm being paid. I guess it's true, though, that many people are baffled by punctuation.
I'm not surprised, because I don't have a real high opinion on the average person's intelligence. I've just met too many people who are completely devoid of basic skills in math, reading comprehension, and writing.
I don't think having good grammar and expecting others to as well makes you a bad person. It's not about feeling superior. These are rules that everyone learned at some point, and the application of them is, to me, a matter of pride.
I work with people who have post graduate degrees in Architecture who routinely misspell words on construction documents. I'm talking about legally binding building plans that will still be on file long after everyone reading this thread is mummified. And I don't think that embarassment is an inappropriate reaction when reading a typo on something like that. The same thing goes for anything published. I could read my hometown paper with a red pen, because it typically has about 2-3 typos/misspellings per page.
I grit my teeth through most little things, especially in a public forum. But I still think not taking the time to glance over what you've written and fixing the obvious misspellings and common grammar usage mistakes is indicative of a person without any pride or self-respect.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Yes, I am judging. I judge the lady in your story kind for caring about her mother more than the difference between like and lack. I judge your job as small, Jon Boy, if your job is merely correcting grammar. Your livelihood isn't a flaw. It's just small. You have a nice wife and a baby on the way. Those are both HUGE, so it's not as if more important work isn't cut out for you. I worked at a grocery store for years, and my job was pretty small too, and I gave people food.
Some people are accountants. You know what, accounting is small work. We need them, the profession is filled, fine. But if I went to an accounting website and saw a discussion of accountants laughing at those ignorant simps who can't do their own taxes, I would think the same thing about them.
Sorry to double post, but this is obnoxious.
First of all, caring about your mother and caring about your grammar are not mutually exclusive. You don't have X amount of caring, and if you use any on writing you're a bad daughter.
How lucky we all are to have you here, Irami, judging everyone's livelihood. I like my job, and I think I'm good at it. But I guess I won't know if what I'm doing is worthwhile till I get the verdict from you, will I?
No job is small. That's one of the most arrogant things I've seen in a while. Every job provides a service, fulfills a need. And it's a good thing to be proud of what you do. What do you have against taking pride in your work? You should strive to be the best at something, anything. You should want to improve in some area everyday.
Could you list some professions that you don't consider "small"?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Noemon,
It is a creative process, and even more so than accounting, I imagine. I still think this group was beyond the pale in their exhuberance.
Jon Boy,
quote:I find it hilarious how seriously you take yourself, Irami.
It's good to bring joy into the world.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Wow, Irami. I think it would be fair to judge you as unkind for dismissing the talents of others as trivial.
I mean, I think it is more important to care about people's feelings than whether or not they dot their i's.
Bu, isn't all work 'small'? Aren't all small things also important? Why do you find it necessary to be insulting? That really puzzles me. I don't understand it.
quote: Magnify the small, increse the few. Reward bitterness with care.
See simplicity in the complicated. Achieve greatness in little things.
In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy. In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds. The sage does not attempt anything very big, And thus achieves greatness.
Excerpt from SIXTY-THREE of the Tao te Ching
The whole point of this thread is that we do not lift ourselves up by putting other people down.
Anyone should care more about their mother's death than how they spell something. That makes you resonably normal, not necessarily kind. But it is kind to care more about a person's feelings than these trivial things.
That is the bit you seem to be murky on, at least in practice.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: It's good to bring joy into the world.
I certainly never said that I found joy in what you said.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Spang,
quote:No job is small.
That's crap. There is a reason why bartenders don't, historically, win the nobel peace prize. And why there is a tomb for the unknown soldier instead of the unknown dentist.
Olivet,
quote:But, isn't all work 'small'?
No.
quote:Aren't all small things also important?
At their time and in their place.
quote:Why do you find it necessary to be insulting?
A lot of the first page was spent teeing off on people with poor grammar, I'm just bringing the issue closer to home, if that's insulting, I think the people offended are puffed-up with too much misplaced pride.
quote:The sage does not attempt anything very big, And thus achieves greatness.
I think that that's crap, too.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
Lets kick his ass
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Jon Boy, on the other hand, being an extremely relaxed individual.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
all I know is when this one boy spells "being" as "been", I find it really sweet.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I admit I was unhappy that it turned into a "look how dumb this is" thread.
But you admit that grammar is not your cuppa, so you're turninng it around on those who are good at it. So, "if that's insulting, I think the people offended are puffed-up with too much misplaced pride" doesn't seem at all an ironic thing for you to say? I mean, you're teeing off, too. But it's the teeing of that you object to, soo I just find answering insults with insults to be equally petty. Which was what I was trying to avoid. In fact, it was that sort of thing I started this thread to ask people to avoid. *headdesk*
And, I still don't see how caring more about your mother than an email makes you kind. I accept that all forms of 'teeing off' in this thread are unkind, though. I'm with you there.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I happen to think there is something really sexy about a man who correctly uses semi-colons.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Hm. I wonder why everyone gets the impression that Jon Boy goes around picking apart people's grammar. I read a LOT of his posts and spend a LOT of time with him in person, and the only time he does it is when someone claims to be an expert on language or points out someone else's flaws--and has errors in their own condescending post. Seriously. I think people assume that because Jon Boy and I (and other language geeks) know a lot about English means that we spend every waking minute looking down on everyone who can't use punctuation correctly. Yes, we notice pretty much everything you're doing wrong. We can't help but notice. We do wish we could turn it off when we're not at work, but we don't know how.
But do we think you're stupid or annoying or worse than us? Nope. Extreme cases get annoying because they're difficult to read, and we know how much easier they would be to read if the writer just used a little bit more care.
As for my post on the first page, I didn't mean it at all condescendingly. I found it interesting that a Utah feature (sell/sale merge) was also common in the South. It made me wonder if that's where it originated before coming to Utah or if it's just a common occurrence and took place in two places independent of one another.
I can't say whether the other posts were meant to be condescending. I hate that everyone assumes "Grammar Nazi" means Jon Boy, though.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:That's crap. There is a reason why bartenders don't, historically, win the nobel peace prize. And why there is a tomb for the unknown soldier instead of the unknown dentist.
Yes, because if you die having not won a nobel prize your life was wasted. Let's see, 776 nobel laureates, roughly 10-12 billion people who've ever lived, that's roughly 0.000008% of the total cumulative population who had a worthwhile life.
And because a profession has a special tomb it's inherently better than all the others?
You're not mad at misplaced pride, you're mad at all pride. Which is just sad.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Olivet,
quote:But you admit that grammar is not your cuppa, so you're turninng it around on those who are good at it.
I admit no such thing, other than my incompetence and subsequent learning have shown me the error of your ways. (It's too bad if you are not smiling at the end of that line because I think my delivery would have you in stitches.)
I don't object to the teeing off. I just choose to tee off at the right people; however, I do understand your frustration. *shows a little leg for kmbboots*
Brinestone,
quote:I wonder why everyone gets the impression that Jon Boy goes around picking apart people's grammar.
Your husband volunteered. I took my shots at grammar Nazies. He said it was his profession. I said that's fine. He said he didn't appreciate me calling his profession small. I said his profession is small, but it's not a big deal; rather, you are a big deal. He called me hilarious, and I do appreciate that.
[ October 27, 2005, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: Good grammar is like wearing the right shoes.
So, poor grammar is like wearing the left shoes? Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I happen to think there is something really sexy about a man who correctly uses semi-colons.
Oh; yea? Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Ooooo, baby. Do it in a sentence!
(Am I violating Hatrack rules yet?)
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Brinestone I didn't think of Jon Boy at all when I said Grammar Nazi, so I hope you don't think I was trying to insult ANYONE.
Grammar IS important, though. I mean, if you want to be writer, a lot of the pre-readers are Grammar Nazis, and they will slushpile you so fast your head will spin if you have bad skilz.
I'm not making a value judgement about that being the way it should be or anything. That's just the way it is. Or, the way it was when some people I know were doing that kind of work.
Grammar doesn't matter so much in a lot of fields, but I think it is valid to make professional vs personal distinctions.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Oh. *shrug* I started this thread because I thought that teeing off on peopple is something we shouldn't do. That still seems like a reasonable plea to me.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Nope. Teeing off on people is something we should do well. Of all people, you, as an Oscar Wilde appreciator, should respect that.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I only like Oscar Wilde because of man/man action.
Seriously, though, i don't want to be evil to people. I don't see the point in it. I don't understand the joy in causing pain as a way of making others small and lifting myself up.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Grammar isn't important, that's precisely why it is okay to make fun of it.
You people have things all backwards.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Olivet,
Fair enough.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Olivet,
Fair enough.
Irami, I could hug you for that. Drop me a line if you're ever in town. I figure I owe you a dinner at least, for the unpleasantness a few years ago. If you like.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:I wonder why everyone gets the impression that Jon Boy goes around picking apart people's grammar.
No, that's me.
quote:I hate that everyone assumes "Grammar Nazi" means Jon Boy, though.
That actually is his fault. He does have that SN . . .
I am resisting sharing any flagrant examples of spelling/usage (mostly because I find Davidson's Law to be all too true in this thread). But I do notice that I do tend to judge people -- to some small degree -- by whether they proof their posts. Not chat or a quick email: those are too quick, and typos just sneak in. Not necessarily even the average forum post. But long essay-style posts, if they have many misspellings and/or typos, I do notice.
And with dating site profiles, while it doesn't mean I will write someone off, it is a mark against them. Not that they can't spell; that they didn't bother to use a spell-check on something that is meant to be the way they are presenting themselves. Look, my dad cannot spell to save his life, and he is one of the most intelligent people I know (in addition to many other wonderful character traits). But he does know how to use a spell-check.
Does caring about these things make me small? Maybe, and it is something I am trying to pay less attention to (at least in other people's writing). But neither am I in favor of spelling anarchy. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I don't need dinner, but see if there isn't some sort of school music program for the boys. And while you are at it, finish one of your books.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
rivka: Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Your husband volunteered. I took my shots at grammar Nazies. He said it was his profession. I said that's fine. He said he didn't appreciate me calling his profession small. I said his profession is small, but it's not a big deal; rather, you are a big deal. He called me hilarious, and I do appreciate that.
A couple of points:
1. Calling someone's profession small IS a big deal. If you can't see how demeaning that is, then you need to take a few courses in empathy. 2. I didn't call YOU hilarious.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I'll come up with something low-key.
Speaking of the boys, it's homework time!!!
Catch y'all tomorrow (which I declare an unnofficial Grammarless Day . It'll be like Talk Like a Pirate Day, only wiith lots of semicolons thrown arourn willy-nilly).
I'm starting early. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:1. Calling someone's profession small IS a big deal. If you can't see how demeaning that is, then you need to take a few courses in empathy.
*passes*
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
In the grand scheme of things yada yada yada...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
It's not a sin to love others for the reasons that they want to be loved.
Self-denial is only a virtue when what you deny is harmful.
Somethings to keep in mind.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Leer.
Only appropriate for this thread.
It's spelled Lear.
erm, did you not see my smilie?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Ooh, hey. I posted before realizing the thread had turned Unfunny. :-\
-o-
I don't think grammar and spelling and such are unimportant. I also don't think they should be the bases for judgments of people in their entirety. I appreciate the fable the way Olivet presented it; I do not, however, agree with some of the more strident posts in that direction.
quote: I read a LOT of his posts and spend a LOT of time with him in person, and the only time he does it is when someone claims to be an expert on language or points out someone else's flaws--and has errors in their own condescending post.
I don't think Jon Boy is ever unkind, but if you're saying the only reason Jon Boy ever corrects anyone else's grammar is when that person is being a condescending jerk, I will actually be a little bit hurt by that. I always thought he also did it when he liked someone and respected his or her skills in that area enough to know he or she they could take a bit of friendly ribbing. :-\
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Okay, that too. He does it to be funny more often than not, and only with people he knows will respond well to it.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
By the way, I didn't mean to imply that I'm perfect in the grammar department. I make a lot of mistakes. Some I catch, but some I don't. Some I probably do repeatedly, not knowing they're mistakes. I think the reason this is different is because I make a conscious effort to minimize the mistakes in my writing.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Icarus, can't it be both? Maybe you're a condescending jerk that I like and respect. Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Man, I'm sitting here wishing with all my heart that Jon Boy had made a typo on that post so I could correct it for him. 'Cause, you know, that would be funny in context.
No, I will resist the temptation to edit his post to introduce an error. Yes, I know his password. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Leer.
Only appropriate for this thread.
It's spelled Lear.
erm, did you not see my smilie?
Erm. . . Will I get flogged if I admit that I didn't? Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
See, I'm thinking that it would be good to change the fear of flogging (and the flogging itself) from Hatrack entirely.
I'll tell you why.
Not so long ago, I had a particularly bad stint doing some editing. They had some personal issues betweenn people that had onee group thinking I was copy-editing only and another group wanting me to do manuscript doctoring. The one group sent me a few pages at a time, which wasn't a problem as far as the copy editing went. However, some of the problems with manuscript centered on unnecessary repetition of information in several sections. I finally suggested they hire an edditor who does ghostwriting.
In any case, I came here after hours of wading through that stuff, brain fried and headsore, and started a thread, basically griping about my job. I thought I was among friends, just chatting.
And, yeah, hoping for some sympathy or commiseration. Which I did get. But I also got a lot of snarky people quoting typos and mistakes in my post, ssniggering behind their hands. Basically saying, "Who do you think you ARE to call yourself a copy editor if you post simple mistakes like THAT."
EXCUUUUUSE me if I don't feel like combing through every post the way I would if I was being paid to do it.
Seriously. You guys wanna pay me $27.00 an hour to post on Hatrack? If you do, then it will be perfect. If not, then leave me alone, okay? I don't have great typing skills or the time to compose and edit all my posts (double-checking spelliing et al), because I have two active boys to mind and real, honest-to-goodness work to do.
You wouldn't criticize a brick-layer for not wanting to lay brick in her spare time, would you? Would correct people's grammar if you were sitting around in a coffee shop, talking about your lives and families?
You might think, "Oh, that person said x," but would you really seek to publicly humilliate them? What IS that, except scoring points off someone by making them look foolish?
I DO HONESTLY believe that grammar and punctuation are important, but the most important thing about Hatrack is communication, I think.
So if you don't understand what someone meant because they never use caps or punctuation, then ask them nicely to clarify. But if you understand them and still wish to point out their mistakes publicly, why do that if not to demonstrate your superiority? (Except, of course, in cases where you are picking at a good friend in some sort of ongoing jest, as some of us do )
I am guilty of this, as well. I know I am. I would simply like us all to do our part in making Hatrack a place for ideas, not a place where people get flogged for splitting their infinitives.
That's an atmosphere that I think our illustrious host would also support.
That was all I was trying to say.
(I didn't proof this post carefully, I admit, but you'll have to pay me to edit it. I have PayPal )
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
quote:Seriously. You guys wanna pay me $27.00 an hour to post on Hatrack?
Olivia,
Can you find me an editing job that pays this well?
Sincerely,
Ruth
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Mabe. I have many other duties at this job, though I was hired as a technical writer/editor. If business picks up he'll want more people.
I'm a contractor. I get no benefits and have to pay my own taxes. I only work when he has something for me to do, so it's less than 40 hours in a month, even when I was doing several projects at once. He hasn't had anything for me to do since September, but it works out well with the kids and the volunteering I do at their school.
Oh, and the freelance editor tthat took over the book (as a ghostwriter)? She makes $90.00 an hour (which is why they tried so hard to get me to do it, since I only charged $15.00). So there is money to be had editing -- just not if yyou need the steady paycheck from The Man. If my family had only my income to live on, I'd be begging the feds to take me back. (Close to the same hourly wage, but considerably more secure. And soul-crushing. Mustn't forget the soul-crushing) What I'm doing now is good work if you can get it, but it isn't steady.
If you two had the wherewithal to start a business for yourselves, it might take some time to develop a sustainable income, but once you make a name for yourselves and get referrals, etc. it would add up.
I'd say you'd be doing better than me in no time, since I acknowledge that you probably have more of a knack for it than I do. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
*bumped for Brinestone*
I can see if my boss would be willing to farm out some of the editing to people over the internet. (I'm certain he'd prefer most of the technical writing to be done by people he can call into the office for meetings, etc. since a lot of the technical writing comes from those meetings.)
So email me if you or your other half are interested. He doesn't have enough work to keep ME busy right now, but he hopes to have lots more than one person can do by the spring.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
That's very nice of you. And since I hope to be a stay-at-home mom doing freelancing on the side come late spring, I may take you up on that offer. No hard feelings if it doesn't work out, though, of course.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I'm glad. I realized (a bit late) that that post (the first one posted on the 29th) came off a lot pissier than I intended (with the added bonus of sounding like I was bragging). *wince*
The truth is that I'm pretty good at usage but punctuation and spelling (especially) do not come naturally to me. It's work. I have to think about it.
Since most of my social contacts are all related somehow to my children, I come to Hatrack as a place to chat and talk about grown-up stuff. I'd rather think about what I'm trying to say than worry about whether-or-not I have used WAY too many commas (I know I do that a lot) That's what I was getting at, but it came out like "I get soo much money! Watch me wallow in it!" Which is just plain wrong. I get enough to pay various school fees and keep my ragamuffins in sneakers (if I bank it and dole it out for the lean times, which isn't always possible when we need tires or have unexpected medical bills).
Anyway, I have no doubt that you and Jon Boy both have a greater natural facility and talent for editing than I do. It strains me wee brains, doncha know.
So my appologies to anyone I have offended with this thread. I started in the hopes of preventing hurt feelings.
But, for the record, I passed a bilboard yesterday that said, "Beautiful, Aren't I?" and it made me very sad. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Actually, "aren't I" is perfectly good usage, illogical as it seems.
I don't know if I really have a greater natural talent for editing. It's just something that I've put a lot of work into and have studied a great deal.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
It's acceptable usage, but anytime you can't replace the contraction with the actual words without sounding stupid, it annoys me. *giggle*
Just like it is now acceptable usage to say "You make me nauseous" instead of "You nauseate me" that doesn't mean I have to LIKE it. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
You actually stop and ask yourself how things would sound if they weren't contracted? Weirdo.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Hey, if you had MY parents, you would, too.
I considered it a huge step in my personal development when I could end a sentence with a preposition and not feel the need to cleanse.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: I considered it a huge step in my personal development when I could end a sentence with a preposition and not feel the need to cleanse.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I would find that amusing, but with my parents, I knew the difference between "who" and "whom" by the time I was three. *sigh*
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
And if you heard my parents, you'd be surprised I'm coherent. Seriously, their first language was Plaut Deutsche (Mennonite low German), their second high German, my father's third was French, and my father's fourth and my mother's third were English. They spoke with Plaut Deutsche idioms and sentence structure.
Kids at school laughed at me for years. It scarred me for life.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
They also betray me when typing homonyms: I no better than to spell like this. Yes, we have know bananas.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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Honest.
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
Irami and I have a bit of history, so I do sort of think he was trying to rile me up. *shrug* So it was ironic that he agreed with me, in essence. It maybe shows that I wasn't terribly clear to begin with, though. ![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
That really puzzles me. I don't understand it.![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
ssniggering behind their hands. Basically saying, "Who do you think you ARE to call yourself a copy editor if you post simple mistakes like THAT." ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
(which is why they tried so hard to get me to do it, since I only charged $15.00). So there is money to be had editing -- just not if yyou need the steady paycheck from The Man.